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Offline mclees8

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Born again Catholic theology
« on: Sun Dec 06, 2015 - 22:52:54 »
Personal relation has everything to with Being Born again of the spirit.
Question is what is the Catholic theology on being Born again?  Let me say this also a lot of Protestants do not catch it either. I do not play favorites.

This is a good subject and needs to be addressed. Jesus said you must be born again or you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. So this is not just any old command but absolute truth. So if you take Gods word seriously  we need to be bullish about addressing it.

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Born again Catholic theology
« on: Sun Dec 06, 2015 - 22:52:54 »

His Kid

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #1 on: Mon Dec 07, 2015 - 08:15:37 »
Personal relation has everything to with Being Born again of the spirit.
Question is what is the Catholic theology on being Born again?  Let me say this also a lot of Protestants do not catch it either. I do not play favorites.

This is a good subject and needs to be addressed. Jesus said you must be born again or you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. So this is not just any old command but absolute truth. So if you take Gods word seriously  we need to be bullish about addressing it.

The Catholic church doesn't use the terminology 'born again', at least not until very recently. The Catholic church teaches that baptism by a Catholic priest removes that stain of original sin and basically puts you in right-standing with God. The sacrament of confirmation is basically a person confirming they believe and during that ritual they are 'indwelt' with the Holy Spirit.. or something to that affect.

These rituals are extremely deceiving and dangerous because the religious person is never even told they need to repent. They are just told they need to confess their sins to a priest and then perform whatever penance they are told they need to perform. It's a meaningless ritual. They never even grasp that repentance is not confessing this sin or that sin and then saying a prayer; repentance is the profound understanding that at your core, you are a fallen human being, a sinner. They are not even told the truth from the beginning. My parents are perfect examples of this brainwashing. They were very devout Catholics and believed in 'the church' to save them, not Jesus. This is very typical of not only Catholics but all religious people who rely on their religion instead answering the call of the Holy Spirit to repent and be born again by the Spirit of God effectively being adopted into God's family and given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of the inheritance of eternal life.

It reminds me of people trading their freedom for safety because the comfort of being safe is more appealing than true freedom in Christ.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 07, 2015 - 08:19:04 by His Kid »

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #1 on: Mon Dec 07, 2015 - 08:15:37 »

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #2 on: Mon Dec 07, 2015 - 08:18:03 »
..

Offline Catholica

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #3 on: Mon Dec 07, 2015 - 08:53:44 »
In the Bible we see Jesus teaching that a person must be "born from above", and then that he must be born again "of water-and-spirit.  Water-and-spirit is a connected phrase in the Greek; it is not two things but one.  Though some deny this, you can tell that this is what Jesus is referring to by being "born from above" or "born again of water-and-spirit" because the very next thing Jesus and the apostles go out doing is performing water baptisms.  Moreover it is in Jesus' water baptism, whereafter the dove descends from heaven (representing the Holy Spirit) and the Father's voice is heard saying "this is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased".  All three together show the effect of the baptism (becoming a son or daughter of God) and the sanctifying by the spirit taking place (the descent of the dove), and all within the context of water baptism.

Note that it is not in the context of Jesus repenting from sin, which it couldn't be since Jesus had no sin.  However John insisted on people repenting from sin in his baptism, and so does the Catholic Church (when they have committed personal sins).  But we see in Jesus' baptism water baptism is more than a public display of faith.  We see that in and through that baptism, we become the beloved sons (or daughters) of God, and receive the Holy Spirit who sanctifies us.

Salvation is given as a gift there, but when we do fall again and sin, it is well-taught by the Catholic Church (and planned for by Jesus in granting his Church the authority to forgive sins) that if a person sins, say, even commits the terrible sin of apostasy, that through the sacrament of confession, they can be restored to friendship with God again as well as have their relationship with the body of Christ (the Church) restored.  It is from those sins that they must continually repent throughout their lives, effecting Multiple conversions throughout their lives.  But in the gift of faith received in baptism, and through the strengthening of God through the receiving of Eucharist, they can continue to have God's help to choose to repent.

Mike if you believe that being "born again" is anything but receiving the Holy Spirit through water baptism, thus receiving the Spirit's sanctification and the supernatural gifts of Faith, Hope and Charity thereby, then you are mistaken.  The Bible reiterates this truth over and over again.

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #3 on: Mon Dec 07, 2015 - 08:53:44 »

Offline mclees8

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #4 on: Mon Dec 07, 2015 - 09:40:03 »
In the Bible we see Jesus teaching that a person must be "born from above", and then that he must be born again "of water-and-spirit.  Water-and-spirit is a connected phrase in the Greek; it is not two things but one.  Though some deny this, you can tell that this is what Jesus is referring to by being "born from above" or "born again of water-and-spirit" because the very next thing Jesus and the apostles go out doing is performing water baptisms.  Moreover it is in Jesus' water baptism, whereafter the dove descends from heaven (representing the Holy Spirit) and the Father's voice is heard saying "this is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased".  All three together show the effect of the baptism (becoming a son or daughter of God) and the sanctifying by the spirit taking place (the descent of the dove), and all within the context of water baptism.

Note that it is not in the context of Jesus repenting from sin, which it couldn't be since Jesus had no sin.  However John insisted on people repenting from sin in his baptism, and so does the Catholic Church (when they have committed personal sins).  But we see in Jesus' baptism water baptism is more than a public display of faith.  We see that in and through that baptism, we become the beloved sons (or daughters) of God, and receive the Holy Spirit who sanctifies us.

Salvation is given as a gift there, but when we do fall again and sin, it is well-taught by the Catholic Church (and planned for by Jesus in granting his Church the authority to forgive sins) that if a person sins, say, even commits the terrible sin of apostasy, that through the sacrament of confession, they can be restored to friendship with God again as well as have their relationship with the body of Christ (the Church) restored.  It is from those sins that they must continually repent throughout their lives, effecting Multiple conversions throughout their lives.  But in the gift of faith received in baptism, and through the strengthening of God through the receiving of Eucharist, they can continue to have God's help to choose to repent.

Mike if you believe that being "born again" is anything but receiving the Holy Spirit through water baptism, thus receiving the Spirit's sanctification and the supernatural gifts of Faith, Hope and Charity thereby, then you are mistaken.  The Bible reiterates this truth over and over again.

I have the experience of an EX- Catholic  and a devout Catholic. So I want to pray and contemplate my
answer

I must not rely on my own wisdom in how to answer. How ever I do believe the experience is not outward and mechanical, but purely spiritual in revelation.  When He spoke to Nicodemus  born of water in one verse but in the other verse he only mentioned the need to be born again of the spirit. IN the second instruction he said and of water.

This indicates t me two different actions. Also the word water was not used in the context of baptism in water. Im not saying it didn't but there is no direct  mention. Nothing against water Baptism of which I firmly believe one must do if at all he is able. I will pray on this and be back soon.

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #4 on: Mon Dec 07, 2015 - 09:40:03 »



Offline Catholica

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #5 on: Mon Dec 07, 2015 - 10:22:27 »
In the Bible we see Jesus teaching that a person must be "born from above", and then that he must be born again "of water-and-spirit.  Water-and-spirit is a connected phrase in the Greek; it is not two things but one.  Though some deny this, you can tell that this is what Jesus is referring to by being "born from above" or "born again of water-and-spirit" because the very next thing Jesus and the apostles go out doing is performing water baptisms.  Moreover it is in Jesus' water baptism, whereafter the dove descends from heaven (representing the Holy Spirit) and the Father's voice is heard saying "this is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased".  All three together show the effect of the baptism (becoming a son or daughter of God) and the sanctifying by the spirit taking place (the descent of the dove), and all within the context of water baptism.

Note that it is not in the context of Jesus repenting from sin, which it couldn't be since Jesus had no sin.  However John insisted on people repenting from sin in his baptism, and so does the Catholic Church (when they have committed personal sins).  But we see in Jesus' baptism water baptism is more than a public display of faith.  We see that in and through that baptism, we become the beloved sons (or daughters) of God, and receive the Holy Spirit who sanctifies us.

Salvation is given as a gift there, but when we do fall again and sin, it is well-taught by the Catholic Church (and planned for by Jesus in granting his Church the authority to forgive sins) that if a person sins, say, even commits the terrible sin of apostasy, that through the sacrament of confession, they can be restored to friendship with God again as well as have their relationship with the body of Christ (the Church) restored.  It is from those sins that they must continually repent throughout their lives, effecting Multiple conversions throughout their lives.  But in the gift of faith received in baptism, and through the strengthening of God through the receiving of Eucharist, they can continue to have God's help to choose to repent.

Mike if you believe that being "born again" is anything but receiving the Holy Spirit through water baptism, thus receiving the Spirit's sanctification and the supernatural gifts of Faith, Hope and Charity thereby, then you are mistaken.  The Bible reiterates this truth over and over again.

I have the experience of an EX- Catholic  and a devout Catholic. So I want to pray and contemplate my
answer

I must not rely on my own wisdom in how to answer. How ever I do believe the experience is not outward and mechanical, but purely spiritual in revelation.  When He spoke to Nicodemus  born of water in one verse but in the other verse he only mentioned the need to be born again of the spirit. IN the second instruction he said and of water.

This indicates t me two different actions. Also the word water was not used in the context of baptism in water. Im not saying it didn't but there is no direct  mention. Nothing against water Baptism of which I firmly believe one must do if at all he is able. I will pray on this and be back soon.

Consider also that it may be both spiritual AND physical. Consider that man is both physical AND spiritual. That God decided to become man and He himself is now physical AND spiritual. Jesus himself was the first sacrament.

If you insist on it being either/or then there is no way that you are going to come to the right answer.

Also consider that "being born of water" was not what natural birth was ever called in the time of Jesus.

Offline RB

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #6 on: Mon Dec 07, 2015 - 10:35:46 »
Mike if you believe that being "born again" is anything but receiving the Holy Spirit through water baptism, thus receiving the Spirit's sanctification and the supernatural gifts of Faith, Hope and Charity thereby, then you are mistaken.
Andre, Mike is not wrong, you are. He's on the right track, you are allowing your religion that you are devoted to, to deceived you, Now, I'm NOT judging your spirit, only your knowledge of the truth. I truly admire your sincerity and love for what you believe to be the truth, but, my friend you are in error.
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In the Bible we see Jesus teaching that a person smust be "born from above", and then that he must be born again "of water-and-spirit.
While it is true that one must be born from above, yet these scriptures (John 3:1-8) are not teaching this. Jesus never used the words "from above", but he used the words born again~I know this from the context of John 3:1-8....and allowing the context to drive the interpretation for us. I do not need to know what the Greek said, for my English bible is all that I need. Proof you ask?  Of course you know that I have proof.  Like any good lawyer, you never ask a question, without knowing the answer.
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John 3:4....Reads~"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
Why did Nicodemus used the words "second time"~if Jesus did not used the words born again? He would not; and my friend it does not take a doctor of Divinity to understand this simple truth.
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Water-and-spirit is a connected phrase in the Greek; it is not two things but one. 
Again, I care less what is in the Greek, because I can read English and understand that here in John 3:1-8, they are two different subjects altogether. As Mike well pointed, that when Jesus explains the new birth, water is not even mention, and for good reasons, because the new birth is a birth of the Spirit of God alone, apart from: natural generation, the will of the flesh, the will of man, BUT of God alone. God alone is the active agent, man is totally passive, for he's dead in trespasses and sins!
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Though some deny this, you can tell that this is what Jesus is referring to by being "born from above" or "born again of water-and-spirit" because the very next thing Jesus and the apostles go out doing is performing water baptisms.
Oh, for sure we deny your understanding of the new birth, but accept what the Spirit's witness of it.  I have a meeting, but I will come back digest John 3:1-8 and prove this: Jesus was showing Nicodemus that by the fact that he understood that Jesus was a true prophet, one sent of God, ONLY one born of God could SEE and know this! Nicodemus' confession in verse two, was totally opposite of his colleagues, who said that Jesus was devil posses! Nicodemus was born again before he came to Jesus, even though in much ignorance, to a point he did not believe in the same understanding that Jesus had. One can be born of God, yet not a believer in certain truths, for whatever reason~ mainly because they have never been as of yet taught properly.  Later.....
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 07, 2015 - 10:41:06 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #7 on: Mon Dec 07, 2015 - 14:42:34 »
Also consider that "being born of water" was not what natural birth was ever called in the time of Jesus.
How do you know what you just said to be true? Were you there? Of course not and neither was I. So your arugment here is pure assumption, which is not a wise tool to used for one to be able to come unto the knowledge of the truth, is it now? Of course not. It will only shame you by a wise interpreter who uses only the scriptures to interpret scriptures. Jesus being a complex person, both man and God cannot be limited to time~for He is the Alpha and the Omega, and all in between~that allows him to use words appropriate for any generation; beside, it most likely was used then just as it is now, and I say that it was,since Jesus used it in that very sense as we shall see and prove.   Let us consider John 3:1-8 just commenting on essential points only.
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John 3:1,2....Reads~"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him."
Most do not first consider the sincere, simple, yet very powerful testimony of this ruler of the Jews. Go through the scriptures and find a more sincere and powerful confession than the one before us; one would be hard press to find one. Also, considering that Nicodemus was a Pharisees, and a ruler at that, did not think as many of them did, based upon what the Spirit has here recorded for us to consider. Nicodemus' faith in who Jesus was as I said earlier, totally different than the rest of the Pharisees.  His spirit was not the same as their. They mocked him, falsely accused him many times, sought to kill him, yet we find this ruler humbly coming to him acknowledging him to be a true prophet, without any hypocrisy, based upon this short testimony from heaven recorded for us to consider.  Now based upon Nicodemus' words to Jesus, listen carefully what Jesus said back to him. (Context is EVERYTHING!)
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"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Jesus just heard Nicodemus' confession~so in response to his words to him, Jesus plainly said that "EXCEPT"a man be born again he CANNOT SEE the kingdom of God, yet Nicodemus by his confession of whom Jesus was proved that he SAW.  Remember, Nicodemus said NO MAN can do these miracles that thou doest, EXCEPT GOD BE WITH HIM. One should be able to see perfectly the connection between verse two and three, and once one does, then the rest falls beautifully in place.
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John 3:4...Reads~"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
Jesus had just said to Nicodemus that except one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God....meaning the TRUTHS of it. Poor Nicodemus, though a child of God, yet unable to get his understanding around what Jesus is beginning to instruct him on.  But, let us be easy on Nicodemus, for he is like most of God's children, truth comes slowly and over a period of TIME. Though the term "born again" is not expressly used like that in the OT, the truth is clearly taught over and over again. Abraham being a prime example.
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John 3:5....Reads~"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
I'm coming back to this landmark scripture later.  I will said this for now: Jesus would have never mentioned water "IF" Nicodemus had not asked the question that he did in verse four.  This can easily be proven.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 07, 2015 - 16:42:55 by RB »

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #8 on: Tue Dec 08, 2015 - 03:51:31 »
I would put it this way, Water Baptism is like becoming on of the family and that's all fine under the roof of Christianity but the point that the Bible makes is that it's the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus Baptism we all strive for with hope.

The water Baptism is much like becoming a Jew = a people of God.

The coming of the Holy Spirit Baptism is much like becoming an Israel = servant of God.

So once you are born again that's it their is no turning back on Christ Jesus, you live in him and are a faithful servant and more than that you are truly a Brother in the Lord come hell or high water, sure you will grow from that time as God wills.

Offline RB

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #9 on: Tue Dec 08, 2015 - 04:55:43 »
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John 3:5....Reads~"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
One of the most wrestled scriptures in God's word. Some do so in ignorance with no conscience; some in sincerity, though still in ignorance. God is the judge not man. Our duty is to be faithful and labor to rightly divide the word of truth, while depending on the Spirit of God to guide us, to the degree that we truly seek him to do so. John 3:5 is Jesus' response to Nicodemus' question.  Our Lord very carefully addresses Nicodemus' concern mind concerning the expression being born again. Jesus starts out by first addressing the one that Nicodemus' mind went quickly to...entering back into his mother's womb, and being born again~as though that was a possibility, even though the scriptures never mentioned such a strange birth was necessary before being able to SEE and come to the knowledge of the truth. But, many times over the OT scriptures testified of the necessity of God giving a new heart before one could see and understand the truths of God's kingdom, both now and hereafter.
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Ezekiel 36:26...Reads~"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
By nature we are born with a stony cold heart toward the things of God, and as we get older the heart only gets harder, apart from the grace of God being shown to us. There are many OT scriptures that this ruler of the Jews should had been able to ponder and come to understand what Christ meant by using the phrase: born again. He should have ponder why did Israel understand and other nations did not, but were left in darkness. He had the OT scriptures that said:
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Deuteronomy 7:6-8....Reads~ "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."
What separated Israel from the other nations? GRACE ALONE! The Covenant to Abraham, was nothing less than the Everlasting Covenant made with Christ, only in its early revelation, and as time moved toward Christ, God continue  to unveil the New Covenant through the children of the promises...from Abraham to  David to Christ.  Nicodemus had these OT scriptures, and being a ruler of them, was without excuse for not knowing them better...YET, that being said and true, all this proves that one must be born again before they can see and understand! No one does not need to re-enter back into his mother's womb and be born again.
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"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit"
Born of water ONCE, and OF the Spirit, is the new birth. The new birth is one by God's Spirit, which so many NT scriptures support.
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John 1:11-13...Reads~"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
These scriptures are not understood properly by many, which is so sad, since they are truly interpreted for us by the Spirit. Jesus came unto the Jews, his own people after the flesh, yet they received him not...then John will give us LIGHT concerning those that DID received him and WHY they did, hear ye him...."But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God"....But, those that did receive him the power to do so was GIVEN to them. That's what made the difference between those who did not receive Christ, and those that did receive Jesus as the Sn of God. John further explain the sole source of this power that separated believers form unbelievers, when he added these words:
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Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This IS the birth by the Spirit that Jesus taught Nicodemus that must occur before one can see and understand. One cannot enter into the kingdom and enjoy the fruit thereof without this birth of the Spirit of God...a birth where all human elements are excluded~yea, all MEANS whatsoever, since man is at enmity against God, until this holy birth takes place. Jesus in the next three verses will explain how one is born again, the manner in which it takes place.
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John 3:6-8...Reads~"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
Why is not water mentioned again?  Later...
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 08, 2015 - 05:39:33 by RB »

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #10 on: Tue Dec 08, 2015 - 06:45:41 »
Mike if you believe that being "born again" is anything but receiving the Holy Spirit through water baptism, thus receiving the Spirit's sanctification and the supernatural gifts of Faith, Hope and Charity thereby, then you are mistaken.  The Bible reiterates this truth over and over again.
you're wrong on this Catholica.  If you are ever born again, you will know it and understand.  It doesn't come by being sprinkled with water - or even dunked in water.  It's come from the Holy Spirit Who will 'baptize' one into Christ.
Jesus being baptized in water by JTB was to fulfill prophecy - Jesus being the high priest.  As in the OT the priests washed, washed, washed prior to entering into the tabernacle.  The  words from the Father and the dove of the Spirit were witness to Jesus as the High Priest of the NTC. 

Luke 3:16

John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #11 on: Tue Dec 08, 2015 - 07:31:30 »
Mike if you believe that being "born again" is anything but receiving the Holy Spirit through water baptism, thus receiving the Spirit's sanctification and the supernatural gifts of Faith, Hope and Charity thereby, then you are mistaken.  The Bible reiterates this truth over and over again.
you're wrong on this Catholica.  If you are ever born again, you will know it and understand.  It doesn't come by being sprinkled with water - or even dunked in water.  It's come from the Holy Spirit Who will 'baptize' one into Christ.
Jesus being baptized in water by JTB was to fulfill prophecy - Jesus being the high priest.  As in the OT the priests washed, washed, washed prior to entering into the tabernacle.  The  words from the Father and the dove of the Spirit were witness to Jesus as the High Priest of the NTC. 

Luke 3:16

John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Amen

Offline doorknocker

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #12 on: Tue Dec 08, 2015 - 08:12:21 »
  If you are ever born again, you will know it and understand.  It doesn't come by being sprinkled with water - or even dunked in water.  It's come from the Holy Spirit Who will 'baptize' one into Christ.


This is God's testimony. ..

Then I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean:

from all your filthiness,  and from all your idols, I will cleanse you.



May God open our hearts to understand.

Offline RB

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #13 on: Tue Dec 08, 2015 - 08:37:33 »
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John 3:6...Reads~"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "
Why is not water mentioned again?  Later...
In verse 6, Jesus begins explains verse 5, which is finished in verse 8.
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That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit
Corresponds to the phrase: "born of water and of the Spirit" Born of water is the same thing as born of the flesh~Let us consider: which is born of the flesh, is flesh~Man by his natural birth, and as he is born according to the flesh of his natural parents, is a mere natural man; that is, he is carnal and corrupt, and cannot discern spiritual things; nor can he, as such, enter into, and inherit the kingdom of God.....
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1st Corinthians 2:14...Reds~ "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
And therefore there is a necessity of his being born again, and of becoming a spiritual man; and if he was to be, or could be born again of the flesh, or ever so many times enter into his mothers womb, and be born, was it possible, he would still be but a natural and a carnal man, and so unfit for the kingdom of God. By "flesh" here, is not meant the fleshy part of man, the body, as generated of another fleshy substance; for this is no other than what may be said of brutes; and besides, if this was the sense, "spirit", in the next clause, must mean the soul, whereas one soul is not generated from another: but by flesh is designed, the nature of man; not merely as weak and frail, but as unclean and corrupt, through sin; and which being propagated by natural generation from sinful men, cannot be otherwise; for "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one", ( Job 14:4 ) . And though the soul of man is of a spiritual nature, and remains a spirit, notwithstanding the pollution of sin; yet it being defiled with the flesh, and altogether under the power and influence of the lusts of the flesh, it may well be said to be carnal or fleshly: hence "flesh", as it stands opposed to spirit, signifies the corruption of nature...
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Galatians 5:17...Reads~"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
And such who are in a state of unregeneracy, are said to be after the flesh, and in the flesh, and even the mind itself is said to be carnal and at enmity against God.  Being at enmity against God, is worst than just being a enemy of God. See Romans 8:7. Enter as many times as you desire Nicodemus, you still will come out with a flesh that's at enmity against God Almighty
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that which is born of the Spirit is spirit
A man that is regenerated by the Spirit of God, is a spiritual man; he can discern and judge all things of a spiritual nature:
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1st Corinthians 2:15,16...Reads~"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
"Spirit" in the first part of this clause, signifies the Holy Spirit of God, the author of regeneration; And "spirit", in the latter part, intends the internal work of grace upon the soul, from whence a man is denominated a spiritual man which allows that person to see and understand, even though understanding is a slow process for most of us. Later...
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 08, 2015 - 08:49:04 by RB »

Offline mclees8

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #14 on: Tue Dec 08, 2015 - 13:51:20 »
John 3 borm again. There are many different ways we see this. Everyone says or understands it in their way of seeing it.
I am going to go through as I see it. What makes most sense to me.  I’m not worried about if Nicodemus was different from the other Pharisees or not.  What I see in him is fleshly understanding of being godly (carnal) I come to this because Nicodemus said to Jesus “ We know you came from God for no man could these miracles you do.” Jesus ignored that and never attempted to have chit chat but went straight to the problem.
The problem is in how we see our relationship with God or our perception. Jesus knew Nicodemus was a fleshly man with carnal understanding. He said to him “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born againa, he cannot see the kingdom of God.  The key verse here is the word see. In this verse it has to two meanings.First the word see speaks of what we can see feel and touch. We can see the ground , see the tree see the people, etc .Next  If some one is explaining something to you he might say, can you see that?  He means can you understand that. So Jesus was saying we must be able to understand the things of the spirit which we cannot see.
The carnal man just cannot grasp this. When we talk of the spirit we are talking about things that cannot be seen Such as the unseen things of God. Jesus told the women at the well the time had come when the true worshiper must worship in spirit and in truth for God is Spirit.
Listen now what Im saying, I have stated before that one cannot be borm again of the spirit intill he meets with Jesus in his prayer closet. That is where our true relationship with the Lord in the Spirit begins and no other place. This is just something I know. Call it a personal revelation. One cannot have a spiritual relationship with Christ in the spirit except he be spiritual when no one else is there. Elementary.  This is where we drop our facades and get real with ourselfves with God in the spirit. This is where we would be a fool to be false about our selves and our weaknesses. The Lord knows us by name and every little hiden thing. This is whaere we drop our pride in the trash can. Can see that? How can one be born again of the spirit unless he comes to God in the spirit ?
This is not acting all spiritual in the church doing all the outward things of religions and ritual. This is just going through motions. We think God is impressed with cathedrals and choir robes fancy hates had talking greek waving gold balls with smoke. This purely carnal relgion when the Lord desires us to be interment with Him in the spirit as if he were there with you in your private place, 

What I am saying is That the Lord is so much more interested in us personally than be a good Sunday go to meeting parishioner.
There is no three in one water baptism. Water baptism doesnot make one born again. One may very well born again before the first drop of water touches him. 

When Peter spreached the crowed was convicted and believed. They sirs what must we do to be saved. Weill the first leg of their salvation was when they believed Peters report. The second leg was when they obeyed the admonition to be baptized so they could feel forgiven and a new slate was established. Thee Third phase of their salvation was to be filled with the Holy Spirit. On the day of Pentecost the 120 where filled with the Holy Spirit. They were already saved or they would not have been there waiting for the promise.
 


Next verse Jesus said to Nicodemus “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born againb 
It is often thought that Jesus was connecting water baptism with being born again.  Yes and no.
By obeying the command to be baptized in water represents spiritual cleansing from ones sins.  It is identifying with your new faith in Christ and no longer stained by sin. John the Baptist was baptizing before Jesus and said There is one before me who shoes I am not worthy to latch and he will baptize you the Holy Ghost  and with fire.   Clearly we see to different baptisms. The apostles in acts came across the apostles and said they only knew the Babtism of John So the apostles laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. How is that Catholics think its all done in water baptism?
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 08, 2015 - 14:06:52 by mclees8 »

Offline RB

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #15 on: Tue Dec 08, 2015 - 14:27:13 »
The carnal man just cannot grasp this.
Sir, you made a believer out of me after reading your post!

Offline kensington

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #16 on: Tue Dec 08, 2015 - 23:19:59 »
Except a man be born again... 

Born again...   To truly acknowledge that you are a sinner, who deserves the wages of sin, which is death, and you truly repent, and seek forgiveness... turning away from your sins, and turning towards Jesus. 

This cannot be accomplished through water baptism...  at all. It's a Spiritual thing done in the heart of man, by the Holy Spirit. 

Jesus provided the forgiveness, the Holy Spirit draws you to it, you receive it by "knowledge" of who you are... sinner.

No infant can do that. And it can't be predone for you by your parents with a sprinkle of water.  If you (anyone) would allow God to remove the scales on your eyes and religious bindings ... you would see this. 

That is what Jesus was saying to Nicky.  Peace.    ::tippinghat::

Offline RB

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #17 on: Wed Dec 09, 2015 - 04:12:44 »
Except a man be born again...  Born again...   No infant can do that. And it can't be predone for you by your parents with a sprinkle of water.  If you (anyone) would allow God to remove the scales on your eyes and religious bindings ... you would see this.  That is what Jesus was saying
The scriptures will testify that no infant can be baptized~for baptism is the answer of a good conscience, which infants cannot give; The same scriptures will testify that a infant can be born of the Spirit, does it not?
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Luke 1:15....Reads concerning John the Baptist~"For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."
Somewhere between conception and death of the body, a person can be BORN OF THE SPIRIT just as Nicodemus was before to came to Jesus. This doctrine of the new birth and truths connected with it, is the main reason why the Holy Ghost included John 3:1-8, in the holy scriptures, so that we can come to the knowledge of the truth concerning the manner of how one are born of the Spirit. Thank you most blessed Father!
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If you (anyone) would allow God to remove the scales on your eyes and religious bindings
God in his mercy removes such scales for us, so that we can see, and without him doing so, we cannot see.
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Luke 24:13-32...Reads~"And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"
God chooses the seasons and time to open his children's hearts to certain truths and some he may never open, yet they still could be children of God! Selah
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 09, 2015 - 04:29:02 by RB »

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: Born again Catholic theology
« Reply #18 on: Wed Dec 09, 2015 - 18:22:59 »
Except a man be born again... 

Born again...   To truly acknowledge that you are a sinner, who deserves the wages of sin, which is death, and you truly repent, and seek forgiveness... turning away from your sins, and turning towards Jesus. 

This cannot be accomplished through water baptism...  at all. It's a Spiritual thing done in the heart of man, by the Holy Spirit. 

Jesus provided the forgiveness, the Holy Spirit draws you to it, you receive it by "knowledge" of who you are... sinner.

No infant can do that. And it can't be predone for you by your parents with a sprinkle of water.  If you (anyone) would allow God to remove the scales on your eyes and religious bindings ... you would see this. 

That is what Jesus was saying to Nicky.  Peace.    ::tippinghat::
Deserves ? I think it's more like one comprehends the wages of Sin, is what leads to the death of the Soul and the destruction of what Christ Jesus came to help correct in us all, giving us hope and direction in our lives under Christ leadership with the Holy Sprit.

A rejection of Christ will lead to emptiness and hopelessness and that's satanic = dead.

A Christian parent must work in order to help feed the soul of their children because that's there duty and baptising with water is what Jesus was so eager for all of 'his' to do, with the hope of them coming to them becoming born again.

Christ knew not all would come to the point of being born again in the Holy Spirit but that them who have little faith are not abandoned, water baptism is a family of believers who can repent of their sin to God but they just have not received the point of being born again "in Christ".

"On Christ" I believe is what the water baptism is about.

Water baptism = being a people of God and makes them such and they have hope.

If you are not water baptised, you should be.