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Offline antiaging

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Bread Worship
« on: March 01, 2009, 10:53:55 AM »
Hosea 8:6 For from Israel was it also: the workman made it; therefore it is not God: but the calf of Samaria shall be broken in pieces.

According to that scripture, anything that a workman can make is not God. If someone worships it as being God, then he is breaking one of the 10 commandments and is committing idolatry. The bible says that idolators won't go to heaven. [This includes a round piece of bread with IHS on it shaped like the sun, and housed in a sunburst design holder.]
Genuflecting- definition- American heritage dictionary
To bend the knee in a kneeling, or half kneeling position, as in worship.

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Don't worship that piece of bread as if it is God. Don't call it God. And don't bow down to it.-- if you really want to go to heaven!!

If the wine did become the actual blood of Christ, then it would be disobeying scripture to drink it. Christians are not supposed to drink blood.
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

I believe that transubstantiation is not true, and the bread remains just bread and the wine remains just wine. It represents Jesus's body and blood in a spiritual or comparative way, and it is just a figure of speech. I believe Jesus was speaking in parable form when He made the statement about it.
parable:--comparing an earthly reality to a spiritual truth
The scriptures show that Jesus did not mean it literally but was making a spiritual comparison.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
John 6:61   When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

John 6:62   What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
From those words it can be seen that Jesus was not talking about His literal flesh. He was making a spiritual comparison, or speaking in parable form,  comparing how the body gets nourishment from eating bread to  how a Christian nourishes his spiritual life by dwelling in Jesus, (obeying His teachings), and Jesus dwelling in him.
John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Making an idol out of anything, and that includes a piece of bread, and calling it God and worshipping it, and bowing down to it can get you thrown in hell. Idol worshippers don’t go to heaven.
That church practice is going to cause millions to go to hell.!!!



Isaiah 44:20   He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?



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Bread Worship
« on: March 01, 2009, 10:53:55 AM »

Offline CDHealy

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2009, 02:30:22 PM »
You are clearly, and sadly, misinformed about a) what the Bible says, and b) what Roman Catholics believe about the Eucharist.

Please go school yourself and then come back and discuss.

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2009, 02:30:22 PM »

Offline antiaging

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2009, 01:31:29 AM »
You are clearly, and sadly, misinformed about a) what the Bible says, and b) what Roman Catholics believe about the Eucharist.

Please go school yourself and then come back and discuss.


For your information I was raised catholic and know exactly what I'm talking about.
I also use the real bible, the king james version, translated from the unaltered texts.
If your bible has a different commandment in it, in the place of the one about idolatry that I quoted then your bible has been altered and the words have been changed.

Exodus 20:4   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exodus 20:5   Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
Exodus 20:6   And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Excerpt from the book Understanding Roman Catholicism by former catholic Rick Jones.
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160_12.asp
Transubstantiation
During the mass, priests allegedly have the power to supernaturally turn the bread and wine into the actual and literal body and blood of Jesus Christ:

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation." Pg. 347, #1376.  [1994 catholic catechism]

This Catechism quote reveals that the Catholic church still adheres to this doctrine which was defined at the Council of Trent:

"At the heart of the Eucharistic celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ's Body and Blood." Pg. 336 # 1333 

The Catechism even specifies when Christ comes into the eucharist and how long He stays:

"The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ." Pg. 347 #1377  [1994 cathechism of the catholic church]

Since Catholicism is teaching members to partake in literal cannibalism, this doctrine requires serious examination. To begin with, we must determine this doctrine's origin. Is it from God, or is it a tradition of men? Catholicism insists it is scriptural, citing the words of Jesus in John 6:

"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:53-54 

Though this one verse does appear to teach cannibalism, if you read the entire passage in context, the meaning becomes clear. Right before making that statement, Jesus said:

"... For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." John 6:33-35 

This teaching is consistent with the rest of Scripture. Eternal life comes through believing in Jesus Christ, not eating His body. The Lord goes on to further clarify:

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life..." John 6:40 

Again, Jesus points out that eternal life comes through believing in Him. When the Lord's disciples murmured at His words, Jesus explained:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63 

Jesus was talking spiritually, not physically. He was explaining that spiritually, all life comes through faith in Him, not eating His body.

Nowhere else in the Bible does God endorse cannibalism. In fact, God forbids the practice:

"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." Genesis 9:4
"... No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood." Leviticus 17:12
 

God would never command His children to do something He had already forbidden.

The Biblical purpose

Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 11 shed even more light on this matter:

"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:23-24 

When Jesus said, "Take, eat: this is my body," He was not suggesting that they reach out and begin eating His literal body. To even suggest such is ridiculous. He was speaking spiritually about what He was about to accomplish on the cross.

Notice how that verse ends: "...this do in remembrance of me." Observing the Lord's Supper is a remembrance of Christ's work at Calvary, not a reenactment. The same is true of Christ's blood:

"After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:25 

Jesus Himself taught the same lesson to his disciples at the Last Supper:

"And he (Jesus) took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me." Luke 22:19 

Conclusion

Since transubstantiation is another unscriptural Catholic tradition of men, several more intriguing questions await an answer:

Why does the Catholic church deliberately take one verse of Scripture out of context and build a doctrine the Bible obviously does not teach?
Why would the Catholic church rather have you eating God than placing your faith in Him?
Most importantly, can you knowingly partake in this practice now that you know the truth?
"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James 4:17

Offline broach972

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2009, 04:54:40 PM »
Antiaging, I must echo what CD has stated.  I find it hard to believe that you were raised Catholic.  If you were raised Catholic, you should know better.  You clearly lack an understanding of what the Eucharist is and more importantly what it means.

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2009, 04:54:40 PM »

Offline Francis of Assisi

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2009, 11:58:22 AM »
The problem with the OP's thesis about Catholicism's teaching on the Eucharist being the cause of sending millions to Hell is that he is forgetting the first 1500 years of Church history.  Protestantism makes a fatal flaw when it essentially divorces itself from the first 15 centuries of the Church.  Protestantism is inexorably linked to the Church of Rome.  It's origins are in the Church of Rome.  That is not to say that Rome was or is perfect.  Rome certainly made mistakes in the first 1500 years, especially in it's treatment of heretics.  However, if the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist can send millions to Hell, then who could have been saved prior to the Reformation?  Why would Christ abandon his followers for 1,500 years and allow such a fatal flaw of teaching concerning the central focus of Christian worship and then suddenly raise up a believer to correct the teaching on the Eucharist in 1517?

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2009, 11:58:22 AM »



Offline CDHealy

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2009, 03:58:58 PM »
I love it that antiaging quoted from a Chick tract!  Can we call  them or what?!

Offline desertknight

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2009, 03:47:39 AM »
The topic title is the dead giveaway to your misunderstanding antiaging.  We Catholics do not worship "bread".  We worship God and His incarnation as the Son, Jesus Christ.  We worship God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and on the pains of Hell, nothing else.  Upon the consecration of the Host, it becomes the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.  St. Paul specifically taught this in 1 Cor. 11:29...

"The person who eats and drinks in a wrong way will be punished. He does not take it as the Lord's body."


Your interpretation of John 6:63 is not accurate.  Christ is acknowledgeing their confusion and disgust at being told that they are to "eat His flesh and drink His blood" and  after not only not correcting this by saying He is just speaking metaphorically, He says it again, (4 times total here.), and changes the word to trogo, literally to "crunch", and then says in John 6:63, that they cannot truly accept what he is saying because it takes supernatural faith, not logic, to accept this.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 04:39:42 AM by desertknight »

Offline papist1

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2009, 05:25:01 PM »
anything that is made by man cannot be God?

I guess someone forgot to tell Jesus that.

Let's see, he held up bread, blessed it, said this is my body, and commanded them to eat it.  He also said, my flesh is true food and my blood true drink.

when asked, how can this man give us his flesh to eat, did Jesus respond, "I can't, i was only speaking figuratively" ?

Of course not, he responded,


"How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

 53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.


Yep, I guess Jesus certainly abrogated the OT thinking on this matter, just as he did with divorce.

peace, papist

Offline OldDad

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2009, 05:30:41 PM »
Jesus said he was a door.  So I guess he was made of wood and had a knob in his midsection.


Offline papist1

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2009, 05:45:23 PM »
"Jesus said he was a door"

Now there is an educated man, stating the obvious fact that jesus was speaking figuratively when stating that he was a door. Why don't you please paste the actual text from scripture where Jesus said he was a door?

Then paste the dozens of verses where jesus takes actual bread and actual wine, holds it up, blesses it and tells his disciples that it is his body and blood and commands them to eat and drinkit, and then reiterates that this is His true flesh and blood, and if they eat it they have eternal life, and if they don't eat it they have no life in them?  Then why don't you paste the quotes from Paul in Corinthians where he says that this is no ordinary meal and if you do not examine yourself before partakeing you bring judgement(condemnation) upon yourself for not discerning the body and blood of the Lord?  And then he says that this is the reason many are getting sick and even dying?

Wow, what a parallel to him calling himself a door? LOL Was jesus a type of door? and is he still? yes, of course, but he sure as heck never held up adoor, blessed it and said this is me, you must walk through this in remembrannce of me.

Do you know that Jesus spent more time on the topic of the Eucharist, than any other topic in the gospels?

of course youdid not know that.

may Jesus take the scales from your eyes.

peace, papist

Offline OldDad

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2009, 05:51:53 PM »


Do you know that Jesus spent more time on the topic of the Eucharist, than any other topic in the gospels?



Wrong.

The actual topic Jesus spoke of more than any other in the gospel was money and stewardship.

Of course you did not know that.

Offline papist1

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2009, 06:00:45 PM »
great, then paste all of the verses where he spoke on both issues and tell me which he spent more time on.  He may have made more statements concerning money and stewardship, but he spent more time on the topic of the Eucharist.

Also, please post the verses where Jesus said he was a door, and then post all of the verses where the eucharist is being referred to and let's see how figuratively Jesus was being on the topc of eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

i look forward to your posts with these verses:)

peace, papist

Offline papist1

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2009, 06:08:38 PM »
I guess i  will do it for you.  here is your verse, (where Jesus never says he is a door, btw). Jesus eludes to his being a door.

He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
      "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

And here is just one section of scripture where jesus speaks of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. there are many more and tey are very literal, especially when Jesus is challenged on the topic of giving them his flesh to eat, he only gets more literal and repeats himself asgain and again in more literal ways.

Jesus the Bread of Life
 25When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"
 26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

 30So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'[c]"

 32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

 34"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."

 35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

 41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"

 43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[d] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

 52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

 53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus
 60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
 61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

 67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

 68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

 70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)


Offline papist1

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2009, 06:12:48 PM »
okay old dad, now you can post the dozens and dozens of verses you have where Jesus holds up a door, tells us its truly his flesh and that they must not only pass through it, but eat it.

oh, what was that old dad? Those verses don't exist?  oh, I am sorry you have no proof for your weak position on this matter. maybe you should go back and read john 6 again and then go read the writings of the Christians in the first 6 centuries and see what they believedinstead of what anti catholic hacks believe.

peace, papist

Offline OldDad

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Re: Bread Worship
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2009, 06:25:32 PM »
Perhaps I erred when I assumed you had a Bible you could read and understand.  

John 10:6-9 (New American Standard Bible)

 6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them. 7So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.  8All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.  9I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.