Catholic and Roman Catholic

[Mere Nick]

Here's how I understand it:

It seems to me that everyone who believes Jesus built his church, and that it is constitutionally and essentially one, is a catholic.  The word, iiuc, simply means "universal".

I believe Jesus built one church.  I guess that makes me "catholic".

"Roman Catholic" refers to a Christian church having a hierarchy of priests and bishops under the pope, a liturgy centered in the Mass, veneration of the Virgin Mary and saints, clerical celibacy, and a body of dogma including transubstantiation and papal infallibility.

Most all of this I don't buy and/or understand.  I guess that means I'm not "Roman Catholic".

[Jon-Marc]

As I have said before, Jesus didn't start a denomination. He started a church of believers who were eventually called Christians since they identified themselves with Christ. Where it all went wrong and everyone started separating into denomination is a good question. I believe that "denominations" are the work of satan. He can't get our souls and wants to destroy our fellowship with one another by causing strife and disagreements among the believers. If satan can turn us against one another, he can make us ineffective for Christ. He's done a very good job of that.

[Mere Nick]

It sounds to me that you are catholic, too.

Strife and disagreement aren't very fun, but those alone shouldn't break the bonds of fellowship.  I have two brothers and sometimes there is disagreement.  Every few years, a tad of strife.  Never once have I thought or treated them as though my father wasn't theirs anymore.

[Rev3:15-19]

It started early very early on:

1 Corinthians 1:2-3 (NIV)
2To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And just a few lines later

1 Corinthians 1:10-17 (NIV)
10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ."

 13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

It should have stopped then with these simple words, but it didn't.  Call me Catholic, call me Christian, call me stupid, but at the end of the day don't call on me because I can't save you from your sins!

[Tantor]

As others have stated, the term 'catholic' refers to the universal church.

Roman Catholic refers to the religion started by Emperor Constantine (with a lot of help from his mother) when he adopted christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire.  During his codification of Christinity, he had to adopt a lot of pagan customs of the time and integrate them into his version of Christianity in order to cement his power base... in essence, a lot of the old pagan temples pretty much had their old names just chiseled off and christian names carved in their place.

Constantine's influence has been so far ranging that it actually still has a lot of its influence evidenced in todays protestantism.

So whether you are pro or anti Catholic, we still have to deal with the legacy of what was done...

Some of the things that I view Constantine as being responsible for.

1.) Creation of a class of clergy.

2.) Obcession with building edifices which is a continuation of pagan traditions (parthanon, pantheon, etc.).

3.) Support of christians being involved in the military instead of being passifistic in nature as were the early christians.

4.) Obsession with ritual forms and practices.  RC is steeped in them with protestants having lesser forms of them, but they are still there.  Whether it be the lords supper (eucharist), baptism, baby dedications, marriage, etc.  For some reason humankind seems to like to fight over and be comfortable with ritual.  Which in my opinion have their roots in paganism.

So whether we like it or not, we all suffer from the same slanted world view in one way or the other.

[Charles Sloan]

If Catholics aren't Roman, then why is the Pope called the Roman Pontiff on vatican.va?

THE HOLY FATHER
The Roman Pontiff, as the successor of Peter, is the perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity of both the bishops and of the faithful.
LUMEN GENTIUM, 23

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/index.htm

Why is the Curia (or the catholic goverining body) called the Roman Curia on vatican.va?

THE ROMAN CURIA
In exercising supreme, full, and immediate power in the universal Church, the Roman pontiff makes use of the departments of the Roman Curia which, therefore, perform their duties in his name and with his authority for the good of the churches and in the service of the sacred pastors.
CHRISTUS DOMINUS, 9

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/index.htm

Seems to me the entire Catholic Church is Roman according to the Vatican.

[James.]

As you will recall, I've mentioned before that the word "Roman" is used in my locale all the time by the Catholic church itself.  Many churches include "Roman" on their signs, etc.  The diocese uses the word "Roman" in their title ("The Roman Catholic Diocese of xxxxx", for example).  When I've mentioned this to the Catholic posters on the board, they responded that yes, indeed, this is the case, but that words like "Romanist" are never used (and I've found no evidence to the contrary), and are offensive. 

The offensiveness or lack thereof is determined, as has been pointed out at nauseatingly exhaustive length by context, intent, and the usage of "-ist", among other things.

[Charles Sloan]

I don't believe the use of the word Romanist was the topic of discussion here.

If you are nauseated by the discussion of the term, you would do well to not bring it up.

[DCR]

When I think about all this, it quite honestly depresses me.  It's the tragedy of Christian church history.

I do believe that the Roman Catholic Church has strayed off path on some things.  And, some of the teachings do make me uncomfortable (veneration of Mary/saints, central papal authority/infallability, etc.).

And, so at different times in history, people come along with their fresh and what they believe to be their more true interpretation of Christianity.  So, they split off and do their own thing.  Then, a little while later, their spiritual descendents believe that they don't have it all together, so they split off and split off and split off.

Then, some rogue sectarians emerge and declare the whole of Christiandom in error because it allegedly doesn't have the "true," "pure," "historical" Gospel (whatever your code word of choice is) that they have discovered.

Anyway, it all seems so sad and hopeless at times.  We can only hope and pray that God is working through it in spite of ourselves.

[James.]

If you are nauseated by the discussion of the term, you would do well to not bring it up.

As if I brought it up.

[Charles Sloan]

If you are nauseated by the discussion of the term, you would do well to not bring it up.

As if I brought it up.

This thread is called "Catholic and Roman Catholic ", so my post has to do with the so-called "universal" church infact falling under the Roman Pontiff, and Roman Curia therefore making all Catholics Roman by definition. I have not used the term Romanist in my posts here, neither did anyone else but you.

So I don't know what your problem is, but if you have a problem with the Roman Church being Roman this is not an issue that I can solve for you. But if you don't want to see the word Romanist being used, I again suggest you don't bring it up in the discussion as you did here:

When I've mentioned this to the Catholic posters on the board, they responded that yes, indeed, this is the case, but that words like "Romanist" are never used (and I've found no evidence to the contrary), and are offensive.

Although if you would like to continue discussing the topic, I would be willing to further explore the subject. But you would need to unlock the thread since I believe that one was locked due to people calling me names.

[Bocephus]

Although if you would like to continue discussing the topic, I would be willing to further explore the subject. But you would need to unlock the thread since I believe that one was locked due to people calling me names.

It was also locked and moved because of behavior of folks on the non-Catholic side, if you catch my drift.

[Mere Nick]

This thread is called "Catholic and Roman Catholic ", so my post has to do with the so-called "universal" church infact falling under the Roman Pontiff, and Roman Curia therefore making all Catholics Roman by definition.

It is "so-called" because Jesus said he would build HIS church.  Do you believe Jesus built one or a bunch?  If you believe he built one, you're catholic.  You're not Roman Catholic unless you go for the things DCR mentioned.  That's the difference, istm.

[NewsWatcher]

It is "so-called" because Jesus said he would build HIS church.  Do you believe Jesus built one or a bunch?  If you believe he built one, you're catholic.  You're not Roman Catholic unless you go for the things DCR mentioned.  That's the difference, istm.

  Exactly how many churches do you believe that Jesus built? 

[Charles Sloan]

This thread is called "Catholic and Roman Catholic ", so my post has to do with the so-called "universal" church infact falling under the Roman Pontiff, and Roman Curia therefore making all Catholics Roman by definition.

It is "so-called" because Jesus said he would build HIS church.  Do you believe Jesus built one or a bunch?  If you believe he built one, you're catholic.  You're not Roman Catholic unless you go for the things DCR mentioned.  That's the difference, istm.

The Catholic Church that exists today, and the Universal Church that you are describing are two very different things. Believing theres one church doesn't make me Catholic, belief in Jesus makes me a Christian. That is the only becoming that is accomplished through belief.