Catholic bashing

[Tantor]

I believe that yes.. they were to die out.  They were intended for the generation living during Christ and the Apostles time.

I must have missed in Scripture where that authority was supposed to "die out".

James 5:14-15  "Is any one of you sick? He should call the Presbyters of the Church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven."  

Jesus is now the head of his church...

He has always been the head of His Church, any man is simply His regent and represents His authority.

he returned and there is ample evidence that he did return in AD70

You believe He returned again in AD70?

Presbyter != Apostle... presbyters are identified by and confirmed by the ekklesia.

And yes, I believe everything in Daniel and Revelation was been fulfilled and are to be interpreted in a Jewish centric manner.  The bible said it was to happen 'soon' and within the 'generation of the then living'... if you do not believe what the Holy Spirit inspired in those two occasions why do you believe the rest of the scriptures?

[desertknight]

Presbyter != Apostle... presbyters are identified by and confirmed by the ekklesia.

Actually, Presbyter literally means "elder" in Greek and there is not one single example of them having any authority in the NT except through their ordination by those who were properly ordained by others to do so, i.e., those who's ordination goes back to Apostolic authority.  There is not one single example in Scripture of any Presbyters being indigenously made so by local Christian communities thmeselves.  Please feel free to contradict me with appropriate scriptural reference.

Acts 14:23  "They appointed Presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith."

1 Tim. 4:14  "Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the Prebyteriate.

1 Tim. 5:22  "Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another's sins."

Tit. 1:5  "For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint Presbyters in every town, as I directed you."

2 Tim 1:6  "For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God 5 that you have through the imposition of my hands."

Acts 14:23  "They appointed Presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith."

In not one single example of the NT, is there any reference to anyone holding proper authority in the Church after the original Apostles, without first having been so given that authority, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the laying on of hands at ordination, by those who are already properly ordained themselves, going back to the original Apostles chosen by Christ.


 

[winsome]

Again, let's not get personal. Let's just say that it is to be expected that when statements are made and things done, there will be ppl who test them in the light of the Scriptures.

That is the central issue.

With respect that is not the central issue of this thread.

The central issue is the abuse of Catholics by inflammatory attacks on Catholicism as exemplified by ExCathedras interventions.

[Tantor]

Presbyter != Apostle... presbyters are identified by and confirmed by the ekklesia.

Actually, Presbyter literally means "elder" in Greek and there is not one single example of them having any authority in the NT except through their ordination by those who were properly ordained by others to do so, i.e., those who's ordination goes back to Apostolic authority.  There is not one single example in Scripture of any Presbyters being indigenously made so by Christian communities thmeselves.  Please feel free to contradict me with appropriate scriptural reference.

Acts 14:23  "They appointed Presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith."

1 Tim. 4:14  "Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the P1 Tim. 5:22  "Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another's sins."

Tit. 1:5  "For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint Presbyters in every town, as I directed you."

2 Tim 1:6  "For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God 5 that you have through the imposition of my hands."

Acts 14:23  "They appointed Presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith."

In not one single example of the NT, is there any reference to anyone holding proper authority in the Church after the original Apostles, without first having been so given that authority, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the laying on of hands at ordination, by those who are already properly ordained themselves, going back to the original Apostles chosen by Christ.
 

None of those verses you quoted mean what you think they mean.. UNLESS you approach them with your man made RCC doctrines first.

The funny thing is that the RCC HAS NO ELDERS....  They have their leadership congealed into one role which is modeled after the Pagan priesthood.

I guess the scriptures weren't sufficient for their institution so they had to adopt and make up names for their positions.

No matter.. I always find it interesting how people cannot see that they are interpreting scripture through the lens of their religious and/or political bias every day.

[desertknight]

None of those verses you quoted mean what you think they mean.. UNLESS you approach them with your man made RCC doctrines first.

Oh, well that should be easy enough for you.  All you have to do is to post one single passage from NT scripture where a Presbyter is so constituted by any local Christian community outside of Apostolic Authority, i.e., just name one Presbyter, or show where one is so named, who was NOT ordained through the laying on of hands by only those who were properly ordained themselves, (Ordination back to an original Apostle.), and you will convince me.  Easy as pie.  Just one. 

[farouk]

w:

You may be right about the personal remarks aspect; I haven't even bothered to read the personal attacks that you refer to.

(Theologically for me, Scripture is the central issue, though, and I've said so elsewhere.)

Again, let's not get personal. Let's just say that it is to be expected that when statements are made and things done, there will be ppl who test them in the light of the Scriptures.

That is the central issue.

With respect that is not the central issue of this thread.

The central issue is the abuse of Catholics by inflammatory attacks on Catholicism as exemplified by ExCathedras interventions.

[Tantor]

11Command and teach these things. 12Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity. 13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

No mention of apostles here... but there is a mention of elders.

And I believe that elders in a particular church are to identify potential new elders then train them through discipleship and have them confirmed by the ekklesia prior to the laying on of hands.  If I recall, there is a mention in the bible of elders being appointed by Apostles and then 'accepted' by the congregation.

I would also contend that all protestant churches can pretty much trace themselves back to an elder that split from the catholic church at some point.

But then again, I wouldn't consider most catholic priests to meet the qualifications for eldership according to the new testament.... afterall, elders were to be the husband of one wife... so you can throw catholic priests right out the window when it comes to being elders.

[desertknight]

 "11Command and teach these things. 12Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity. 13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you."

No mention of apostles here... but there is a mention of elders.

Yes, there is a mention of "elders", i.e., Presbyters,or in this case, Bishop/overseers, and that passage of Paul's to Timothy very clearly states that his authority as such is derived by the laying on of hands by the Presbyterate, i.e., body of Bishops and Elders.  That is what I quoted from.  That is exactly how it is done today in the Catholic Church...

From the CCC:  "By this consecration and by hierarchical communion with the Pope and other bishops, the bishop becomes a member of the episcopal body. The Church's ancient practice of several bishops consecrating every new bishop witnesses to the bishop's collegial nature."

 

And I believe that elders in a particular church are to identify potential new elders then train them through discipleship and have them confirmed by the ekklesia prior to the laying on of hands.  If I recall, there is a mention in the bible of elders being appointed by Apostles and then 'accepted' by the congregation.

As to your other point, no.  Not only is there no record in the NT of a local church coming up with it's own Presbyter or "elder" indigenously, St. Paul specifically charges Timothy as an "overseer" or Bishop, to, "1 Tim. 5:22  "Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another's sins. Keep yourself pure.", Just as he charges Titus to, Tit. 1:  "appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you.", or says elsewhere, "They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith."  Again, nowhere in scripture is there a case of an Presbyter simply being constituted by a local community on their own.

Presbyters are appointed by authority, not created so from the local congregation.  They may, and often do, come from a local congregation, but their authority as a Presbyter is clearly shown by scripture to come only from other members of the Presbyteriate.  That is one of the prime duties of a Bishop today, just as then.  If there is a passage of scripture that contradicts this model, you will have to post it to convince me otherwise.

As to your second, there is no scripture that states Presbyters authority is subject of approval by a local congregation.  They may not like him, but His authority is clearly shown in scripture as being given through the laying on of hands by the Presbyterate.

I would also contend that all protestant church can pretty much trace themselves back to an elder that split from the catholic church at some point.

No they can't any longer.  It is not simply a question of if they can, it is a question of what they believed about it.  Protestants neither claim, not does the Catholic Church believe, that they can trace their authority back through Apostolic Succession.  Those lines of authority do exist outside of the Church however...

"The Roman Catholic Church holds that a bishop's consecration is valid if the sacrament of Holy Orders is validly administered with the intention of doing what the Church does by ordination and according to a valid sacramental form, and if the consecrating bishop's orders are valid, regardless of whether the rite takes place within or outside of the Roman Catholic Church. Thus, Roman Catholics recognize the validity of the episcopacy of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East and Old Catholic bishops, but the situation is less clear regarding Anglican bishops and Independent Catholic bishops (see Episcopi vagantes)."

[ex cathedra]

i wonder why we never see any Roman Catholic sites bash the pope for bashing their Jesus!

Why must us protestants keep this devils puppet  in check when it should be your Job to do that?

Thanks 'ex'.    Some may have thought we were being unfair in our assessments but your filth comment above will prove in spades the very point we are making.

You view people who tell you the truth as your enemy and the papacy who fills you with his lies you view as your friend .

you deserve every payment you make to him   it buys you nothing and robs you of everything..

The   pope  has such respect for Jesus our savior God --------ya right.

  HE  say's  even people who don't believe in Jesus  will be in heaven
if they please the papacy.

But people who put their whole trust in Jesus and kowingly turn their back on the pope and his demands are anathama --damed to hell .

its ok for him to bash us but if we bash him and his doctrine of devils then were the bad guys according to you.

[banished]

desertknight, let it go! 

We need to pray that the anti-Catholic will be given a greater share in the true faith. Although they may appear to be filled with anger and hate, remember that someone told them that they have a "personal Relationship" with Jesus.  Every Catholic needs to remember the anti-Catholic every time they pray. We need to dedicate our Holy Hour to prayer on their behalf and make reparation for their insults against Jesus, his Mother, and the Church. May our prayer rise like incense to heaven and be found pleasing to Almighty God.

[ex cathedra]

desertknight, let it go!  

We need to pray that the anti-Catholic will be given a greater share in the true faith. Although they may appear to be filled with anger and hate, remember that someone told them that they have a "personal Relationship" with Jesus.  Every Catholic needs to remember the anti-Catholic every time they pray. We need to dedicate our Holy Hour to prayer on their behalf and make reparation for their insults against Jesus, his Mother, and the Church. May our prayer rise like incense to heaven and be found pleasing to Almighty God.

the Anti - catholic  Is the pope .So  yes pray that he trusts in his  savior Jesus His merits alone for his salvation . So that the pope  also can be saved.

[banished]

desertknight, let it go!  

We need to pray that the anti-Catholic will be given a greater share in the true faith. Although they may appear to be filled with anger and hate, remember that someone told them that they have a "personal Relationship" with Jesus.  Every Catholic needs to remember the anti-Catholic every time they pray. We need to dedicate our Holy Hour to prayer on their behalf and make reparation for their insults against Jesus, his Mother, and the Church. May our prayer rise like incense to heaven and be found pleasing to Almighty God.

the Anti - catholic  Is the pope .So  yes pray that he trusts in his  savior Jesus His merits alone for his salvation . So that the pope  also can be saved.

Good morning ex cathedra,

This section of the forum is a potty for baby Christians.  It attracts the Protestants who like to hurt other people, so let me sum up a Catholic Philosophy. This verse has been handed down from the beginning of Christianity.

"He who eateth the flesh, and drinketh the blood of Jesus Christ, hath eternal life, but he that eateth of the Pope shall die like a beast."