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Author Topic: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion  (Read 821 times)

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Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« on: Fri Jan 02, 2015 - 14:30:59 »
There are 9 Justices on the US Supreme Court.  At present, 6 of them belong to the RCC, including Chief Justice John Roberts.

Given the RCC's strong pro-life stance, why is it that the Court hasn't re-heard Roe or otherwise found opportunity to illegalize abortion in America?

Please don't take this as an attack (I know you get plenty of that in this forum).  I'm genuinely perplexed by this.  Couldn't the Pope make 6 phone calls and have it done?

Jarrod

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Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« on: Fri Jan 02, 2015 - 14:30:59 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #1 on: Fri Jan 02, 2015 - 16:07:11 »
There are 9 Justices on the US Supreme Court.  At present, 6 of them belong to the RCC, including Chief Justice John Roberts.

Given the RCC's strong pro-life stance, why is it that the Court hasn't re-heard Roe or otherwise found opportunity to illegalize abortion in America?

Please don't take this as an attack (I know you get plenty of that in this forum).  I'm genuinely perplexed by this.  Couldn't the Pope make 6 phone calls and have it done?

Jarrod

I feel your pain.  But it's not like that in the Catholic Church.  The Pope can't (and doesn't) mandate any particular laity to do anything.  It's up to the bishops to act, but the most they can do is wield the power of excommunication.

Similarly God doesn't force anyone to do anything.  It's that whole pesky business of free will.

Aside from that, in order for the Supreme Court justices to act they have to have someone bring them a case to act upon.  Not that I think that is the root problem in this case, but it is another hurdle.

There are many people who call themselves Catholic but who don't carry out what they are called to do in the world, which is be co-actors with God to have God's "will be done on Earth as it is in heaven".
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 02, 2015 - 16:11:39 by Catholica »

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #1 on: Fri Jan 02, 2015 - 16:07:11 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #2 on: Fri Jan 02, 2015 - 16:34:47 »
It's up to the bishops to act, but the most they can do is wield the power of excommunication.
I guess I'm putting it at the feet of the wrong person if I mention the Pope.

But all this does is change the question to "why don't they do something?"  Excommunication is a pretty big deal, I believe.  And abortion is, I would assume, sufficient grounds for excommunication.

Jarrod

Offline kensington

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #3 on: Sat Jan 03, 2015 - 00:02:42 »
Didn't someone openly tell John Kerry to not take communion due to his stance on abortion?  I'd think they could at least do that here.  It seems if your leaders cannot influence moral choices in your life, they are not fulfilling the command to lead. The admonition that Teachers will be held to a higher accountability than those they teach alone should call bishops and priests to reach out to these judges and call them to the vow they took more important than public service, or the Law. But, the choice to say they belong to Christ and His calling. 

I think it's a great failing of the Catholic leadership to not openly call these men to biblical responsibility concerning life.  And yes, even the Pope... He addresses the actions of government, war, life and death every day.  To say he doesn't or can't is false. From the layman to the Vatican, it should be the priority of someone who is called "Christian".

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #3 on: Sat Jan 03, 2015 - 00:02:42 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jan 03, 2015 - 11:18:34 »
Didn't someone openly tell John Kerry to not take communion due to his stance on abortion?  I'd think they could at least do that here.  It seems if your leaders cannot influence moral choices in your life, they are not fulfilling the command to lead. The admonition that Teachers will be held to a higher accountability than those they teach alone should call bishops and priests to reach out to these judges and call them to the vow they took more important than public service, or the Law. But, the choice to say they belong to Christ and His calling. 

I think it's a great failing of the Catholic leadership to not openly call these men to biblical responsibility concerning life.  And yes, even the Pope... He addresses the actions of government, war, life and death every day.  To say he doesn't or can't is false. From the layman to the Vatican, it should be the priority of someone who is called "Christian".

Who is saying that priests, bishops and the pope cannot, are not, will not influence people?  What evidence do you have that they are not influencing people?

Biblically much influence happens privately or semi-privately.  Only once those avenues are exhausted, then excommunication becomes an option.  That's Matthew 18.

Whether or not to excommunicate someone is a touchy subject, and one that I leave up to the Church to decide.  It is easy to say that this or that person should be excommunicated for promoting this or that sinful thing or committing this or that sin.  But we are always easier on ourselves when we ourselves sin, aren't we?

I leave those decisions up to the bishops, and probably the best thing to do would be to pray for those bishops that they have the strength, courage and insight to do God's will in the matter.

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jan 03, 2015 - 11:18:34 »



Offline kensington

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #5 on: Sat Jan 03, 2015 - 14:31:13 »
I'm not a judge with the matter of abortion as a choice in my hand. So, guilting me for being lighter on myself for sin won't work.  What sin are you talking about?

I'm saying that for anyone of any religion or church that has spiritual influence in the lives of men who claim belief in Jesus Christ. should be trying to influence them concerning the word of God.  "Anyone".   Trust me, when I see someone I know to be a Christian walking in error to the word of God, I have no problem trying to influence them to consider their choices and line them up with the word.

Just as I am supposed to do. 

Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #6 on: Sat Jan 03, 2015 - 15:02:35 »
I'm not a judge with the matter of abortion as a choice in my hand. So, guilting me for being lighter on myself for sin won't work.  What sin are you talking about?

I have no idea what you are talking about.  This thread isn't about you.  I'm talking about the subject at hand, that bishops need to make difficult pastoral decisions when it comes to excommunication.

I'm saying that for anyone of any religion or church that has spiritual influence in the lives of men who claim belief in Jesus Christ. should be trying to influence them concerning the word of God.  "Anyone".   Trust me, when I see someone I know to be a Christian walking in error to the word of God, I have no problem trying to influence them to consider their choices and line them up with the word.

Just as I am supposed to do.

And that is what the priests and bishops do, as well as the laity.  Again I ask, who ever said otherwise?

Spiritual influence is not the same as compulsion.  A person can influence someone continually but it is still up to that person to make their own choices, even with regard to sin.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #7 on: Sat Jan 03, 2015 - 15:11:23 »
It's up to the bishops to act, but the most they can do is wield the power of excommunication.
I guess I'm putting it at the feet of the wrong person if I mention the Pope.

But all this does is change the question to "why don't they do something?"  Excommunication is a pretty big deal, I believe.  And abortion is, I would assume, sufficient grounds for excommunication.

Jarrod

There is a difference between knowingly and actively taking part in an abortion and being a judge who doesn't overturn Roe v. Wade.  However, there could potentially be grounds for excommunication for passing pro-abortion legislation.  There are a lot of people, laity and clergy, who wish that excommunications would make a return.  But for some reason they don't and so we just plod on.

A bishop who has care for a soul such as one who is publicly supporting abortion who doesn't do something about it will have to answer for it before God. 

The other side of the coin is the perception that the Church, if they started excommunicating politicians and/or judges for their pro-abortion views, would be wielding the Eucharist for the purpose of political power, and that is not the intent of the Eucharist at all.  So I guess that these are difficult pastoral decisions, and I am not personally qualified to make them.

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jan 03, 2015 - 20:24:59 »
That'd call a lot of those in politics into question.  Like any Kennedy, Pelosi, Biden - it'd be a long list.  I do think JK was called on it - but who knows where it went from there.
the judges aren't there to uphold Catholic law tho - but the constitution.  As much as I don't like abortion being legal, I have to go with that.  I think they should go with upholding LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  LIFE first.

A TV news show talking head  recently said on air that he is a born again Christian.  He will get an email from me soon.  I figured I'd 'sit' on it a week or 2 for both our sakes. He has in the past claimed to be Christian and I did email on that (like he ever gets the emails).  With other things he says it clashes - loudly.  Saying he is BA was like fire crackers going off in all directions.

Another news host who often brings up being Catholic has also claimed he doesn't believe that what's in the Bible is true.  He might have meant just OT - he was talking about the story of Jonah and said that he no way believed it happened.  My wondering was then what does he do with Jesus in the NT quoting from that story.  He doesn't believe Jesus or the NT either?  If the OT isn't true, that wipes out a lot (or all) of the NT with it.  He must not believe in an all powerful God. 


Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #9 on: Tue Jan 06, 2015 - 13:40:17 »
It's up to the bishops to act, but the most they can do is wield the power of excommunication.
I guess I'm putting it at the feet of the wrong person if I mention the Pope.

But all this does is change the question to "why don't they do something?"  Excommunication is a pretty big deal, I believe.  And abortion is, I would assume, sufficient grounds for excommunication.

Jarrod
There is a difference between knowingly and actively taking part in an abortion and being a judge who doesn't overturn Roe v. Wade.  However, there could potentially be grounds for excommunication for passing pro-abortion legislation.  There are a lot of people, laity and clergy, who wish that excommunications would make a return.  But for some reason they don't and so we just plod on.

A bishop who has care for a soul such as one who is publicly supporting abortion who doesn't do something about it will have to answer for it before God. 

The other side of the coin is the perception that the Church, if they started excommunicating politicians and/or judges for their pro-abortion views, would be wielding the Eucharist for the purpose of political power, and that is not the intent of the Eucharist at all.  So I guess that these are difficult pastoral decisions, and I am not personally qualified to make them.
I don't see it as being for "political power."  I see it as being for the sake of saving the lives of babies. 

That aside... in the past, the RCC hasn't ever shied away from acting as an authority to kings and presidents.  Has the Church decided to withdraw completely from the arena of governance?

Jarrod


Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #10 on: Tue Jan 06, 2015 - 14:42:07 »
It's up to the bishops to act, but the most they can do is wield the power of excommunication.
I guess I'm putting it at the feet of the wrong person if I mention the Pope.

But all this does is change the question to "why don't they do something?"  Excommunication is a pretty big deal, I believe.  And abortion is, I would assume, sufficient grounds for excommunication.

Jarrod
There is a difference between knowingly and actively taking part in an abortion and being a judge who doesn't overturn Roe v. Wade.  However, there could potentially be grounds for excommunication for passing pro-abortion legislation.  There are a lot of people, laity and clergy, who wish that excommunications would make a return.  But for some reason they don't and so we just plod on.

A bishop who has care for a soul such as one who is publicly supporting abortion who doesn't do something about it will have to answer for it before God. 

The other side of the coin is the perception that the Church, if they started excommunicating politicians and/or judges for their pro-abortion views, would be wielding the Eucharist for the purpose of political power, and that is not the intent of the Eucharist at all.  So I guess that these are difficult pastoral decisions, and I am not personally qualified to make them.
I don't see it as being for "political power."  I see it as being for the sake of saving the lives of babies. 

That aside... in the past, the RCC hasn't ever shied away from acting as an authority to kings and presidents.  Has the Church decided to withdraw completely from the arena of governance?

Jarrod

The Supreme Court can't change any laws unless a case is presented to it.  And to even hear cases I believe that a majority of the justices must agree.  So really they are culpable for any actions that cause unjust laws to be enacted, and I suppose for refusing to hear cases that deal with overturning unjust laws as well.

The Church hasn't withdrawn completely from the arena of governance, though clergy are no longer allowed to hold office.  But certainly the bishops and the Pope do provide and have provided guidance for which any elected official, especially Catholic ones, should heed.  But in terms of exercising power directly via threat of excommunication, that seems to have fallen from normal use.

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #11 on: Tue Jan 06, 2015 - 16:13:08 »
It's up to the bishops to act, but the most they can do is wield the power of excommunication.
I guess I'm putting it at the feet of the wrong person if I mention the Pope.

But all this does is change the question to "why don't they do something?"  Excommunication is a pretty big deal, I believe.  And abortion is, I would assume, sufficient grounds for excommunication.

Jarrod
There is a difference between knowingly and actively taking part in an abortion and being a judge who doesn't overturn Roe v. Wade.  However, there could potentially be grounds for excommunication for passing pro-abortion legislation.  There are a lot of people, laity and clergy, who wish that excommunications would make a return.  But for some reason they don't and so we just plod on.

A bishop who has care for a soul such as one who is publicly supporting abortion who doesn't do something about it will have to answer for it before God. 

The other side of the coin is the perception that the Church, if they started excommunicating politicians and/or judges for their pro-abortion views, would be wielding the Eucharist for the purpose of political power, and that is not the intent of the Eucharist at all.  So I guess that these are difficult pastoral decisions, and I am not personally qualified to make them.
I don't see it as being for "political power."  I see it as being for the sake of saving the lives of babies. 

That aside... in the past, the RCC hasn't ever shied away from acting as an authority to kings and presidents.  Has the Church decided to withdraw completely from the arena of governance?

Jarrod

The Supreme Court can't change any laws unless a case is presented to it.  And to even hear cases I believe that a majority of the justices must agree.  So really they are culpable for any actions that cause unjust laws to be enacted, and I suppose for refusing to hear cases that deal with overturning unjust laws as well.

I do think they've refused to take anything having to do with abortion...  I could be wrong on that - I wouldn't bet my #3 son on it.

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #13 on: Wed Jan 14, 2015 - 08:37:00 »
I may have no facts or concrete evidence but I do no that the most powerful government in the world and the most powerful religious leader in the world are deeply politically involved with one another ever since Kennedy. There is a reason why the pope keeps quiet.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #14 on: Wed Jan 14, 2015 - 08:39:48 »
I may have no facts or concrete evidence but I do no that the most powerful government in the world and the most powerful religious leader in the world are deeply politically involved with one another ever since Kennedy. There is a reason why the pope keeps quiet.

No facts and no evidence.  So basically all you have is baseless accusations.  Is that Christian?

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #15 on: Wed Jan 14, 2015 - 08:44:36 »
I may have no facts or concrete evidence but I do no that the most powerful government in the world and the most powerful religious leader in the world are deeply politically involved with one another ever since Kennedy. There is a reason why the pope keeps quiet.

No facts and no evidence.  So basically all you have is baseless accusations.  Is that Christian?

Aren't you being a little touchy.   Could it be that you know there is some to truth to that.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #16 on: Wed Jan 14, 2015 - 08:50:19 »
I may have no facts or concrete evidence but I do no that the most powerful government in the world and the most powerful religious leader in the world are deeply politically involved with one another ever since Kennedy. There is a reason why the pope keeps quiet.

No facts and no evidence.  So basically all you have is baseless accusations.  Is that Christian?

Aren't you being a little touchy.   Could it be that you know there is some to truth to that.

And the answer is, no, it's not Christian.  It's a sin, called slander.

James 4
11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Psalm 101
5 Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly
    I will destroy.
Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart
    I will not endure.

Luke 6
45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Mark 7:20-23
And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
« Last Edit: Wed Jan 14, 2015 - 08:54:51 by Catholica »

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #17 on: Wed Jan 14, 2015 - 10:17:56 »
I may have no facts or concrete evidence but I do no that the most powerful government in the world and the most powerful religious leader in the world are deeply politically involved with one another ever since Kennedy. There is a reason why the pope keeps quiet.

No facts and no evidence.  So basically all you have is baseless accusations.  Is that Christian?

Aren't you being a little touchy.   Could it be that you know there is some to truth to that.

And the answer is, no, it's not Christian.  It's a sin, called slander.

James 4
11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Psalm 101
5 Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly
    I will destroy.
Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart
    I will not endure.

Luke 6
45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Mark 7:20-23
And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Try reading Global Vatican by former ambassador Francis Rooney to the Holy SEE.  If I have slandered.

During a period of immense change and challenge for the United States, the Catholic Church, and the world, Francis Rooney served as U.S. Ambassador to the Holy See, the governing body of the Catholic Church, under George W. Bush from 2005 to 2008.

His new book, THE GLOBAL VATICAN, captures the interwoven nature of religious and political power and the complexities, battles, and future prospects for the relationship between the Holy See and the United States as both face challenges old and new.
   

ORDER TODAY

“Francis Rooney deftly blends history with current events, erudite analysis with warm anecdotes in The Global Vatican. His fascinating book details the incredible history of U.S.-Vatican diplomacy since America’s inception. This book serves as a reminder to the far-reaching influence of two superpowers, the United States and the Vatican. All governments are advised to take into calculation the extraordinary influence of the Vatican at a time when people power compared to state power has achieved new preeminence.”

— Dr. David Abshire
Former U.S. Ambassador to NATO and Special Counsellor to President Reagan
 

By the way Cath just what was my slander?  Did Jesus slander the Pharisees?

Did John the Baptist slander when he called them a brood of vipers?






















« Last Edit: Wed Jan 14, 2015 - 10:30:26 by mclees8 »

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #18 on: Wed Jan 14, 2015 - 10:39:00 »
One more thought, if the Vatican is such a power then why is it not used to abolished Roe verses Wade. Why?

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #19 on: Wed Jan 14, 2015 - 11:09:06 »
Because it's spiritually corrupt.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #20 on: Wed Jan 14, 2015 - 11:49:49 »
Because it's spiritually corrupt.

It is that for sure but the corruption goes much deeper than we see at face. The church was not to be in love with the world and its politics. We should stand up for godly morality being a light for Christ but Jesus was not a political messiah

Offline skeeter

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #21 on: Sun Jan 18, 2015 - 03:11:49 »
And the answer is, no, it's not Christian.  It's a sin, called slander.

James 4
11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Psalm 101
5 Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly
    I will destroy.
Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart
    I will not endure.

Luke 6
45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Mark 7:20-23
And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
double standard much?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #22 on: Mon Jan 19, 2015 - 10:52:11 »
And the answer is, no, it's not Christian.  It's a sin, called slander.

James 4
11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Psalm 101
5 Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly
    I will destroy.
Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart
    I will not endure.

Luke 6
45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Mark 7:20-23
And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
double standard much?

No, just one standard, that being Jesus Christ.  Why do you ask?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #23 on: Mon Jan 19, 2015 - 10:59:25 »
By the way Cath just what was my slander?

Portraying the Pope as doing something shameful and underhanded with (your words) "no facts or concrete evidence". 

Did Jesus slander the Pharisees?

No, Jesus had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Did John the Baptist slander when he called them a brood of vipers?

No, John had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Do you see the difference between slander and what Jesus and John did and what you did?

Galatians 6
6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #24 on: Mon Jan 19, 2015 - 12:10:54 »
By the way Cath just what was my slander?

Portraying the Pope as doing something shameful and underhanded with (your words) "no facts or concrete evidence". 

Did Jesus slander the Pharisees?

No, Jesus had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Did John the Baptist slander when he called them a brood of vipers?

No, John had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Do you see the difference between slander and what Jesus and John did and what you did?

Galatians 6
6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Just what do you believe that evil and underhanded was that I accused him of. It is no secret that the pope is religious and political figure head.  What I said was where the pope is in the politics of this world Jesus was not, Nor did he instruct the church to be evolved. did I not show my proof.  It is you who falsely  accuses me of lies and slander but I told know lie. So who is being evil here. Is it no you who accuses me

Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #25 on: Mon Jan 19, 2015 - 12:31:29 »
By the way Cath just what was my slander?

Portraying the Pope as doing something shameful and underhanded with (your words) "no facts or concrete evidence". 

Did Jesus slander the Pharisees?

No, Jesus had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Did John the Baptist slander when he called them a brood of vipers?

No, John had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Do you see the difference between slander and what Jesus and John did and what you did?

Galatians 6
6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Just what do you believe that evil and underhanded was that I accused him of. It is no secret that the pope is religious and political figure head.  What I said was where the pope is in the politics of this world Jesus was not, Nor did he instruct the church to be evolved. did I not show my proof.  It is you who falsely  accuses me of lies and slander but I told know lie. So who is being evil here. Is it no you who accuses me

Ah, I see, you don't think that "the most powerful government in the world and the most powerful religious leader in the world are deeply politically involved with one another ever since Kennedy" is wrong.  So tell me, if it's not wrong in your eyes, then why would this be a reason for the pope to "keep quiet" in your view? 

Perhaps you see that this "keep(ing) quiet" is the Pope being humble rather than proclaiming the good work of working with the world's biggest government?  But then you go on to say that the Vatican is deeply spiritually corrupt.

You must be the Pope's biggest fan then, since you see him as trying to rid the Vatican of corruption by being humbly silent while working with the biggest government on earth.

Tell me, in your view, is the accusation that the Pope works silently with the biggest government on earth a good thing or a bad thing?

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #26 on: Mon Jan 19, 2015 - 13:06:06 »
By the way Cath just what was my slander?

Portraying the Pope as doing something shameful and underhanded with (your words) "no facts or concrete evidence". 

Did Jesus slander the Pharisees?

No, Jesus had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Did John the Baptist slander when he called them a brood of vipers?

No, John had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Do you see the difference between slander and what Jesus and John did and what you did?

Galatians 6
6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Just what do you believe that evil and underhanded was that I accused him of. It is no secret that the pope is religious and political figure head.  What I said was where the pope is in the politics of this world Jesus was not, Nor did he instruct the church to be evolved. did I not show my proof.  It is you who falsely  accuses me of lies and slander but I told know lie. So who is being evil here. Is it no you who accuses me

Ah, I see, you don't think that "the most powerful government in the world and the most powerful religious leader in the world are deeply politically involved with one another ever since Kennedy" is wrong.  So tell me, if it's not wrong in your eyes, then why would this be a reason for the pope to "keep quiet" in your view? 

Perhaps you see that this "keep(ing) quiet" is the Pope being humble rather than proclaiming the good work of working with the world's biggest government?  But then you go on to say that the Vatican is deeply spiritually corrupt.

You must be the Pope's biggest fan then, since you see him as trying to rid the Vatican of corruption by being humbly silent while working with the biggest government on earth.

Tell me, in your view, is the accusation that the Pope works silently with the biggest government on earth a good thing or a bad thing?

No the church is not to be evolved in the politics of this world. The pope is evolved with it. That is a truth  No  slander there.   Love not the world is the command for the Believer. Jesus said in His prayer to the disciples  " I pray for them( the disciples) I pray not for the world. Why did Jesus say that? Can you tell me why he said that. Apparently you would have no clue  I stand for Christ. No slander there.

Are you accusing me of evil because I stand for Christ and not the pope and his political involvement. That is the truth here Cath
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 19, 2015 - 13:11:17 by mclees8 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #27 on: Mon Jan 19, 2015 - 13:24:10 »
By the way Cath just what was my slander?

Portraying the Pope as doing something shameful and underhanded with (your words) "no facts or concrete evidence". 

Did Jesus slander the Pharisees?

No, Jesus had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Did John the Baptist slander when he called them a brood of vipers?

No, John had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Do you see the difference between slander and what Jesus and John did and what you did?

Galatians 6
6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Just what do you believe that evil and underhanded was that I accused him of. It is no secret that the pope is religious and political figure head.  What I said was where the pope is in the politics of this world Jesus was not, Nor did he instruct the church to be evolved. did I not show my proof.  It is you who falsely  accuses me of lies and slander but I told know lie. So who is being evil here. Is it no you who accuses me

Ah, I see, you don't think that "the most powerful government in the world and the most powerful religious leader in the world are deeply politically involved with one another ever since Kennedy" is wrong.  So tell me, if it's not wrong in your eyes, then why would this be a reason for the pope to "keep quiet" in your view? 

Perhaps you see that this "keep(ing) quiet" is the Pope being humble rather than proclaiming the good work of working with the world's biggest government?  But then you go on to say that the Vatican is deeply spiritually corrupt.

You must be the Pope's biggest fan then, since you see him as trying to rid the Vatican of corruption by being humbly silent while working with the biggest government on earth.

Tell me, in your view, is the accusation that the Pope works silently with the biggest government on earth a good thing or a bad thing?

No the church is not to be evolved in the politics of this world. The pope is evolved with it. That is a truth  No  slander there.   Love not the world is the command for the Believer. Jesus said in His prayer to the disciples  " I pray for them( the disciples) I pray not for the world. Why did Jesus say that? Can you tell me why he said that. Apparently you would have no clue  I stand for Christ. No slander there.

Are you accusing me of evil because I stand for Christ and not the pope and his political involvement. That is the truth here Cath

You accuse the Pope of silently doing evil, while at the same time saying (these are your words, Mike) "I may have no facts or concrete evidence". 

If I were to announce to the world that "Mike Clees is a child molester" despite having "no facts or concrete evidence" would that be slander, Mike?

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #28 on: Mon Jan 19, 2015 - 13:53:46 »
By the way Cath just what was my slander?

Portraying the Pope as doing something shameful and underhanded with (your words) "no facts or concrete evidence". 


Did Jesus slander the Pharisees?

No, Jesus had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Did John the Baptist slander when he called them a brood of vipers?

No, John had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Do you see the difference between slander and what Jesus and John did and what you did?

Galatians 6
6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Just what do you believe that evil and underhanded was that I accused him of. It is no secret that the pope is religious and political figure head.  What I said was where the pope is in the politics of this world Jesus was not, Nor did he instruct the church to be evolved. did I not show my proof.  It is you who falsely  accuses me of lies and slander but I told know lie. So who is being evil here. Is it no you who accuses me

Ah, I see, you don't think that "the most powerful government in the world and the most powerful religious leader in the world are deeply politically involved with one another ever since Kennedy" is wrong.  So tell me, if it's not wrong in your eyes, then why would this be a reason for the pope to "keep quiet" in your view? 

Perhaps you see that this "keep(ing) quiet" is the Pope being humble rather than proclaiming the good work of working with the world's biggest government?  But then you go on to say that the Vatican is deeply spiritually corrupt.

You must be the Pope's biggest fan then, since you see him as trying to rid the Vatican of corruption by being humbly silent while working with the biggest government on earth.

Tell me, in your view, is the accusation that the Pope works silently with the biggest government on earth a good thing or a bad thing?

No the church is not to be evolved in the politics of this world. The pope is evolved with it. That is a truth  No  slander there.   Love not the world is the command for the Believer. Jesus said in His prayer to the disciples  " I pray for them( the disciples) I pray not for the world. Why did Jesus say that? Can you tell me why he said that. Apparently you would have no clue  I stand for Christ. No slander there.

Are you accusing me of evil because I stand for Christ and not the pope and his political involvement. That is the truth here Cath

You accuse the Pope of silently doing evil, while at the same time saying (these are your words, Mike) "I may have no facts or concrete evidence". 

If I were to announce to the world that "Mike Clees is a child molester" despite having "no facts or concrete evidence" would that be slander, Mike?

Ok I give you that one Cath. it was a mistake to say that. Truth is I did  have proof . nothing silent about it.
No slander. So why did Jesus say I pray not for the world if the church was to be politically involved with it?
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 19, 2015 - 14:00:02 by mclees8 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #29 on: Mon Jan 19, 2015 - 14:10:06 »
By the way Cath just what was my slander?

Portraying the Pope as doing something shameful and underhanded with (your words) "no facts or concrete evidence". 


Did Jesus slander the Pharisees?

No, Jesus had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Did John the Baptist slander when he called them a brood of vipers?

No, John had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Do you see the difference between slander and what Jesus and John did and what you did?

Galatians 6
6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Just what do you believe that evil and underhanded was that I accused him of. It is no secret that the pope is religious and political figure head.  What I said was where the pope is in the politics of this world Jesus was not, Nor did he instruct the church to be evolved. did I not show my proof.  It is you who falsely  accuses me of lies and slander but I told know lie. So who is being evil here. Is it no you who accuses me

Ah, I see, you don't think that "the most powerful government in the world and the most powerful religious leader in the world are deeply politically involved with one another ever since Kennedy" is wrong.  So tell me, if it's not wrong in your eyes, then why would this be a reason for the pope to "keep quiet" in your view? 

Perhaps you see that this "keep(ing) quiet" is the Pope being humble rather than proclaiming the good work of working with the world's biggest government?  But then you go on to say that the Vatican is deeply spiritually corrupt.

You must be the Pope's biggest fan then, since you see him as trying to rid the Vatican of corruption by being humbly silent while working with the biggest government on earth.

Tell me, in your view, is the accusation that the Pope works silently with the biggest government on earth a good thing or a bad thing?

No the church is not to be evolved in the politics of this world. The pope is evolved with it. That is a truth  No  slander there.   Love not the world is the command for the Believer. Jesus said in His prayer to the disciples  " I pray for them( the disciples) I pray not for the world. Why did Jesus say that? Can you tell me why he said that. Apparently you would have no clue  I stand for Christ. No slander there.

Are you accusing me of evil because I stand for Christ and not the pope and his political involvement. That is the truth here Cath

You accuse the Pope of silently doing evil, while at the same time saying (these are your words, Mike) "I may have no facts or concrete evidence". 

If I were to announce to the world that "Mike Clees is a child molester" despite having "no facts or concrete evidence" would that be slander, Mike?

Ok I give you that one Cath. it was a mistake to say that. Truth is I did  have proof . nothing silent about it.
No slander. So why did Jesus say I pray not for the world if the church was to be politically involved with it?

And now you have falsely accused ME of falsely accusing you.  You're not doing that great, Mike.  Plus you have induced skeeter to say that I have a double standard, which certainly banks on your suggestion that I was slandering you.

What a mess Mike.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #30 on: Tue Jan 20, 2015 - 07:20:26 »
By the way Cath just what was my slander?

Portraying the Pope as doing something shameful and underhanded with (your words) "no facts or concrete evidence". 


Did Jesus slander the Pharisees?

No, Jesus had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Did John the Baptist slander when he called them a brood of vipers?

No, John had evidence.  He called them out for doing something that was publicly known and sinful.

Do you see the difference between slander and what Jesus and John did and what you did?

Galatians 6
6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Just what do you believe that evil and underhanded was that I accused him of. It is no secret that the pope is religious and political figure head.  What I said was where the pope is in the politics of this world Jesus was not, Nor did he instruct the church to be evolved. did I not show my proof.  It is you who falsely  accuses me of lies and slander but I told know lie. So who is being evil here. Is it no you who accuses me

Ah, I see, you don't think that "the most powerful government in the world and the most powerful religious leader in the world are deeply politically involved with one another ever since Kennedy" is wrong.  So tell me, if it's not wrong in your eyes, then why would this be a reason for the pope to "keep quiet" in your view? 

Perhaps you see that this "keep(ing) quiet" is the Pope being humble rather than proclaiming the good work of working with the world's biggest government?  But then you go on to say that the Vatican is deeply spiritually corrupt.

You must be the Pope's biggest fan then, since you see him as trying to rid the Vatican of corruption by being humbly silent while working with the biggest government on earth.

Tell me, in your view, is the accusation that the Pope works silently with the biggest government on earth a good thing or a bad thing?

No the church is not to be evolved in the politics of this world. The pope is evolved with it. That is a truth  No  slander there.   Love not the world is the command for the Believer. Jesus said in His prayer to the disciples  " I pray for them( the disciples) I pray not for the world. Why did Jesus say that? Can you tell me why he said that. Apparently you would have no clue  I stand for Christ. No slander there.

Are you accusing me of evil because I stand for Christ and not the pope and his political involvement. That is the truth here Cath

You accuse the Pope of silently doing evil, while at the same time saying (these are your words, Mike) "I may have no facts or concrete evidence". 

If I were to announce to the world that "Mike Clees is a child molester" despite having "no facts or concrete evidence" would that be slander, Mike?

Ok I give you that one Cath. it was a mistake to say that. Truth is I did  have proof . nothing silent about it.
No slander. So why did Jesus say I pray not for the world if the church was to be politically involved with it?

And now you have falsely accused ME of falsely accusing you.  You're not doing that great, Mike.  Plus you have induced skeeter to say that I have a double standard, which certainly banks on your suggestion that I was slandering you.

What a mess Mike.

Then you agree with me that I have told the  the truth and I did not lie about the pope  and the US as being super powers deeply in ties together  Is that not what you are saying. The issue is not really about me but what I said. Is it not. I did not slander the pope but you said I did?

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #31 on: Tue Jan 20, 2015 - 07:35:33 »
Ok I give you that one Cath. it was a mistake to say that. Truth is I did  have proof . nothing silent about it.
No slander. So why did Jesus say I pray not for the world if the church was to be politically involved with it?

Cath >   And now you have falsely accused ME of falsely accusing you.  You're not doing that great, Mike.  Plus you have induced skeeter to say that I have a double standard, which certainly banks on your suggestion that I was slandering you.

What a mess Mike.


  Mike>   Not really.   

So then you agree with me now that I have told the  truth and I did not lie about the pope  and the US as being super powers deeply in ties together?  Is that not what you are saying. The issue is not really about me , but you accused me of slander falsely  Is it not? I did not slander the pope but you said I did?


« Last Edit: Tue Jan 20, 2015 - 07:42:24 by mclees8 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #32 on: Tue Jan 20, 2015 - 09:45:03 »
What do you make of this Psalm, Mike, with regard to nations serving God?

In particular pay attention to verse 11.

Psalm 72
1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

In addition, consider these verses from Matthew 10.  In particular, consider verse 18.

Matthew 10
16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues.
18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.
19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say,
20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 20, 2015 - 09:48:30 by Catholica »

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #33 on: Tue Jan 20, 2015 - 12:10:10 »
What do you make of this Psalm, Mike, with regard to nations serving God?

In particular pay attention to verse 11.

Psalm 72
1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

In addition, consider these verses from Matthew 10.  In particular, consider verse 18.

Matthew 10
16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues.
18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.
19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say,
20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

First I see Psalm 72  is a prayer for Solomon who was Old Testament. It also speaks  to the time of Christ second coming. None of this is about present day church involvement with politics.

Next your reference to Matt 10 t speaks of persecutions by the religious  and political leaders of the early church.  Nothing of being in league with them. Nor to today

Surely you can't be serious that these support church involvement  with todays politics.?   ???

Jesus said I pray not for the world. Its clear you no nothing about what Love not the world means.


« Last Edit: Tue Jan 20, 2015 - 12:13:46 by mclees8 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Catholic Justices of the US Supreme Court and Abortion
« Reply #34 on: Tue Jan 20, 2015 - 13:03:58 »
What do you make of this Psalm, Mike, with regard to nations serving God?

In particular pay attention to verse 11.

Psalm 72
1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

In addition, consider these verses from Matthew 10.  In particular, consider verse 18.

Matthew 10
16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues.
18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.
19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say,
20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

First I see Psalm 72  is a prayer for Solomon who was Old Testament. It also speaks  to the time of Christ second coming. None of this is about present day church involvement with politics.

Next your reference to Matt 10 t speaks of persecutions by the religious  and political leaders of the early church.  Nothing of being in league with them. Nor to today

Surely you can't be serious that these support church involvement  with todays politics.?   ???

Jesus said I pray not for the world. Its clear you no nothing about what Love not the world means.

Oh yes, I definitely support church involvement in politics.  It is the calling of all lay people to bring the kingdom into the world.  My role as a Christian is one of priest, prophet and king, because I am part of the body of Christ, and Jesus was priest, prophet and king.  I pray every single day for God's will to be done on earth, as it is in heaven.  But as a Christian I not only pray but act to make it so.

A real Christian can run for office, and when he does so, he both has the democratic right to be guided by his Christian beliefs, but also the duty to implement those beliefs.  There is no duplicity for Christians, no privatization of religion.  Real Christianity's goal is to beat down the gates of hell, and politics is absolutely one way we can bring that about.

It will never happen completely until Christ returns, but that doesn't stop us from bringing about the conversion of nations.