Author Topic: Catholic Quotations  (Read 2186 times)

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Offline winsome

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Catholic Quotations
« on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 09:27:57 »
Catholic Quotations
 In these forums quotations are given which supposedly come from Catholic sources and reflect Catholic teaching and practice. I'm not directing this to any particular person or organisation but I would like to present some points that I think those posting them, or reading them, should bear in mind.

Fakery.

Some quotations going around are fundamentally faked. The quotes are entirely made up, or made by stitching together sections from other quotes. 
 
Deceiptful

The actual quote given is accurate but is carefully excised from the rest of the sentence or paragraph to make it appear to say something different from what was intended.
 
Authoritative?
How authoritative is such a statement by the person quoted, especially regarding doctrine?
a) ever.
b) on this occasion
 
Translations

Magisterial documents, such as major Papal or Council documents are issued in Latin. There can be issues with poor translations, particularly from more than a few decades ago. Moreover the 'original' may have been in another language still (e.g. Italian) so we have a double translation, although the Latin version is the official one.
 
English Words
English words change their meaning over time. We should consider whether the word means the same now as it did when the statement was originally made.

There can be a different meaning attached to a word by Catholics and Protestants, partly because of the above, with Catholics retaining an older usage. Neither is wrong but we need to understand a word as it was intended by the speaker.
 
Context
This is often ignored. But the context in terms of the whole document, the purpose for which it was written and the history of the times can be very important. Context also includes the style  (e.g. poetical or hyperbole) for which allowance should be made.
 
Verifiable
Is the quote verifiable? For example is a quote from a Pope verifiable from a reliable source? If not then it cannot be demonstrated that the quote was ever made.
 
 
 

KiwiChristian

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #1 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 18:07:32 »
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff . INFALLIBLE PAPAL STATEMENT. Pope Boniface VIII, 1302 AD in an ex cathedra in his Bull Unum Sanctum

"...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.

FAMOUS BENEDICTINE CANONIST: "The pope can do all things God can do." - Nicolaus de Tudeschis [1386-1445], "Commentaria" (lvi, 34)


Pope Nicholas said of himself: "I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do…wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ." (Decret. par. Distinct 96 ch. 7 edit. Lugo 1661)

Pope Pius X : "The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but He is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the Pope speak? It is Jesus Christ that speaks. Does the Pope accord a favor or pronounce an anathema? It is Jesus Christ who pronounces the anathema Or accords the favor." (Protestant Alliance Magazine, March, 1922).

KiwiChristian

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #2 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 20:47:58 »
the power of consecrating. 'No act is greater,' says St. Thomas, 'than the consecration of the body of Christ.' In this essential phase of the sacred ministry, the power of the priest is not surpassed by that of the bishop, the archbishop, the cardinal or the pope. Indeed it is equal to that of Jesus Christ. For in this role the priest speaks with the voice and the authority of God Himself. WHEN THE PRIEST PRONOUNCES THE TREMENDOUS WORDS OF CONSECRATION, HE REACHES UP INTO HEAVENS, BRINGS CHRIST DOWN FROM HIS THRONE, AND PLACES HIM UPON OUR ALTAR TO BE OFFERED UP AGAIN AS THE VICTIM FOR THE SINS OF MAN." - Faith of Millions APPROVED by the RCC and carrying the nihil obstat and imprimatur.


http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=O-kj_LncEjAC&pg=PA256&lpg=PA256&dq=faith+of+millions+Of+what+sublime+dignity+is+the+office+of+the+Christian+priest+who+is+thus+privileged+to+act+as+the+ambassador+and+the+vicegerent+of+Christ+on+earth!&source=bl&ots=AZ5scJbMVK&sig=sSkNDpK60ud5zGYSSuJF97ADzFY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m8YaUeqzHKn5igLrooGACA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

AVZ

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #3 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 20:52:06 »
Catholic Quotations
 In these forums quotations are given which supposedly come from Catholic sources and reflect Catholic teaching and practice. I'm not directing this to any particular person or organisation but I would like to present some points that I think those posting them, or reading them, should bear in mind.

Fakery.

Some quotations going around are fundamentally faked. The quotes are entirely made up, or made by stitching together sections from other quotes. 
 
Deceiptful

The actual quote given is accurate but is carefully excised from the rest of the sentence or paragraph to make it appear to say something different from what was intended.
 
Authoritative?
How authoritative is such a statement by the person quoted, especially regarding doctrine?
a) ever.
b) on this occasion
 
Translations

Magisterial documents, such as major Papal or Council documents are issued in Latin. There can be issues with poor translations, particularly from more than a few decades ago. Moreover the 'original' may have been in another language still (e.g. Italian) so we have a double translation, although the Latin version is the official one.
 
English Words
English words change their meaning over time. We should consider whether the word means the same now as it did when the statement was originally made.

There can be a different meaning attached to a word by Catholics and Protestants, partly because of the above, with Catholics retaining an older usage. Neither is wrong but we need to understand a word as it was intended by the speaker.
 
Context
This is often ignored. But the context in terms of the whole document, the purpose for which it was written and the history of the times can be very important. Context also includes the style  (e.g. poetical or hyperbole) for which allowance should be made.
 
Verifiable
Is the quote verifiable? For example is a quote from a Pope verifiable from a reliable source? If not then it cannot be demonstrated that the quote was ever made.

Occam's Razor says that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

How about adding the word "Erroneous" to the list?

Erroneous
The quote is indeed correct and the church had made a mistake.
The church or its representative should have never made the statement or issued the doctrine.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #4 on: Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 06:27:32 »
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff . INFALLIBLE PAPAL STATEMENT. Pope Boniface VIII, 1302 AD in an ex cathedra in his Bull Unum Sanctum

"...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.

FAMOUS BENEDICTINE CANONIST: "The pope can do all things God can do." - Nicolaus de Tudeschis [1386-1445], "Commentaria" (lvi, 34)


Pope Nicholas said of himself: "I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do…wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ." (Decret. par. Distinct 96 ch. 7 edit. Lugo 1661)

Pope Pius X : "The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but He is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the Pope speak? It is Jesus Christ that speaks. Does the Pope accord a favor or pronounce an anathema? It is Jesus Christ who pronounces the anathema Or accords the favor." (Protestant Alliance Magazine, March, 1922).

Thank you for those excellent examples that illustrate the points I made in the OP.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #5 on: Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 06:28:37 »
the power of consecrating. 'No act is greater,' says St. Thomas, 'than the consecration of the body of Christ.' In this essential phase of the sacred ministry, the power of the priest is not surpassed by that of the bishop, the archbishop, the cardinal or the pope. Indeed it is equal to that of Jesus Christ. For in this role the priest speaks with the voice and the authority of God Himself. WHEN THE PRIEST PRONOUNCES THE TREMENDOUS WORDS OF CONSECRATION, HE REACHES UP INTO HEAVENS, BRINGS CHRIST DOWN FROM HIS THRONE, AND PLACES HIM UPON OUR ALTAR TO BE OFFERED UP AGAIN AS THE VICTIM FOR THE SINS OF MAN." - Faith of Millions APPROVED by the RCC and carrying the nihil obstat and imprimatur.


http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=O-kj_LncEjAC&pg=PA256&lpg=PA256&dq=faith+of+millions+Of+what+sublime+dignity+is+the+office+of+the+Christian+priest+who+is+thus+privileged+to+act+as+the+ambassador+and+the+vicegerent+of+Christ+on+earth!&source=bl&ots=AZ5scJbMVK&sig=sSkNDpK60ud5zGYSSuJF97ADzFY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m8YaUeqzHKn5igLrooGACA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false


I've already commented on this in another thread. There is no point in repeating my comments here.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #6 on: Wed Apr 18, 2018 - 04:26:03 »
KiwiChristian posted a series of supposed Catholic quotes (reply #1).
To which I responded

Thank you for those excellent examples that illustrate the points I made in the OP.


I'd like to take one of these to show how false some of these quotes are.

Pope Nicholas said of himself: "I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do…wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ." (Decret. par. Distinct 96 ch. 7 edit. Lugo 1661)


Sounds damning doesn't it? And apparently a good reference, though what it actually means I don't know - and very difficult to follow up.

Fortunately there are some Catholics who go to a lot of trouble to track these down. I'd like to thank Geoff Horton for this one. It turns out it is completely faked.
Horton says:
This alleged quotation is again no quotation at all. It is taken from John Foxe's Acts and Monuments, Vol. 4, and as far as I can tell contains no authentic papal statements whatsoever. Foxe was attempting to show what the list compilers are attempting to show--that the popes have taken upon themselves the place of God. He did this by creating a fictitious speech from a fictitious pope setting out all his claims. The “speech” is a series of quotations from various documents either about the papacy or by popes themselves, interspersed with what Foxe thinks the popes were thinking. It is somewhat easier to follow in his original than it is here; the person who compiled the extract for the list either didn't notice what Foxe had done, or didn't care. All the distinctions are gone, along with most of the footnotes.
He then goes on to find some of the parts of the quotation and summarises:

In summary:
 Actual papal words quoted: 0.
 Words quoted from actual Catholic documents: Few.
 Stuff Foxe made up: Most of it.


To read his full analysis, and that of six other supposed claims read here:

http://www.geoffhorton.com/PapalClaims.html
 

 

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #7 on: Wed Apr 18, 2018 - 05:15:14 »
Further to the above post I have been trying to track  down this one.

Pope Pius X : "The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but He is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the Pope speak? It is Jesus Christ that speaks. Does the Pope accord a favor or pronounce an anathema? It is Jesus Christ who pronounces the anathema Or accords the favor." (Protestant Alliance Magazine, March, 1922).


Why KiwiChristian should think a quote in a Protestant Magazine is somehow reliable I don't know.

However the quote is supposed to have appeared in the Catholic National, July 1895.  No-one has been able to find any such publication.
Then the quote is supposed to have appeared in a Protestant paper the "Church Review," in October 1895, which claimed Cardinal Sarto, Patriarch of Venice, said those words. Cardinal Sarto became Pope in 1903 so even if he did say them (which he didn't) he did not say them as Pope.  But claiming them as said by a Pope about himself adds an extra twist to the story.

Cardinal Sarto was informed of this and responded "
I have read all the Homilies I have made since my coming here in Venice, and only in the sermon for the Anniversary of the election of the Holy Father I said these exact words:
" "The Pope represents Jesus Christ Himself, and therefore is a loving father. The life of the Pope is a holocaust of love for the human family. His word is love. Love, his weapons; love, the answer he gives to all those who hate him; love, his flag—i.e., the Cross, which signed the greatest triumph on earth and in heaven ... &c."


It would also appear that the English version of the supposed statement by Cardinal Sarto, came originally in an unknown Catholic paper, via an unknown French paper, so a translation of a translation.

But of course anti-Catholic Protestants love this sort of stuff and you will find it all over the web.


   

Offline Alan

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #8 on: Wed Apr 18, 2018 - 11:37:06 »

But of course anti-Catholic Protestants love this sort of stuff and you will find it all over the web.



Just shows humanity at it's best, people use the same logic in all facets of life, whether it be politics, religion, or personal views.


Become biased, close one's mind, and become passionate about said bias to the point where the high-fives are out before anyone even considers the evidence or truth.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #9 on: Wed Apr 18, 2018 - 12:00:58 »

Just shows humanity at it's best, people use the same logic in all facets of life, whether it be politics, religion, or personal views.


Become biased, close one's mind, and become passionate about said bias to the point where the high-fives are out before anyone even considers the evidence or truth.

Oh, man..if that's not the saddest of sad truths, I don't know what is.

Good, insightful post, Alan...though it makes me sad at recognizing the truth in it. 

KiwiChristian

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #10 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 03:31:14 »
"On August 24, 1527, Roman Catholics in France, by prearranged plan, under Jesuit influence, murdered 70,000 Protestants within the space of two months. The Pope rejoiced when he heard the news of the successful outcome."-Western Watchman, Nov.21, 1912 (Catholic)

Therefore the pope ordered "that malicious and abominable sect of malignants," if they "refuse to abjure, to be crushed like venomous snakes."--Wylie, b. 16, ch. 1.

Decreti, pars ii. causa xxiii. quaest v. can. xlvii: "Those are not to be accounted homicides who, fired with zeal for Mother Church, may have killed excommunicated persons."


 "That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history . . . It is impossible to form a complete conception of the multitude of her victims, and it is quite certain that no powers of imagination can adequately realize their sufferings."--W. E. H. Lecky, History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, vol. 2, p. 32, 1910 edition.  (An excellent though lengthy article describing in detail the right of the Roman Catholic Church to do this, will be found in The Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. 12, p. 266.)

 "For professing faith contrary to the teachings of the Church of Rome, history records the martyrdom of more then one hundred million people. A million Waldenses and Albigenses [Swiss and French Protestants] perished during a crusade proclaimed by Pope Innocent III in 1208. Beginning from the establishment of the Jesuits in 1540 to 1580, nine hundred thousand were destroyed. One hundred and fifty thousand perished by the Inquisition in thirty years. Within the space of thirty-eight years after the edict of Charles V against the Protestants, fifty thousand persons were hanged, beheaded, or burned alive for heresy. Eighteen thousand more perished during the administration of the Duke of Alva in five and a half years."--Brief Bible Readings, p. 16.

There were Waldensians ( Who in 1487 Pope Innocent VIII issued a bull for their extermination ) , Albigensians ( who Pope Innocent III initiated a 20-year military campaign against ), the Huguenots, etc.

"Experience teaches that there is no other remedy for the evil, but to put heretics (Protestants) to death; for the (Romish) church proceeded gradually and tried every remedy: at first she merely excommunicatied them; afterwards she added a fine; then she banished them; and finally she was constrained to put them to death." -Cardinal Bellarmine famous champion of Romanism cited by Schumucker p. 76. The Word of God says... "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.  And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me." John 16:2-3

"You ask if he (the Roman Catholic) were lord in the land, and you were in a minority, if not in numbers yet in power, what would he do to you? That, we say, would entirely depend upon circumstances. If it would benefit the cause of Catholicism, he would tolerate you: If expedient, he would imprison you, banish you, fine you; possibly, he might even hang you. But be assured of one thing: He would never tolerate you for the sake of 'the glorious principles of civil and religious liberty' . . . Catholicism is the most intolerant of creeds. It is intolerance itself, for it is truth itself."--"Civil and Religious Liberty," in The Rambler, 8, Sept, 1851, pp. 174, 178. ["The Rambler" was an English Roman Catholic journal published from 1848 to 1862].

 "From the birth of popery to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than fifty millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors,--an average of more than 40,000 religious murders for every year of the existence of popery to the present day. Of course the average number of victims yearly, was vastly greater, during those gloomy ages when popery was in her glory and reigned despot of the world; and it has been much less since the power of the popes has diminished to tyrannize over the nations, and to compel the princes of the earth, by the terrors of excommunication, interdiction, and deposition, to butcher their heretical subjects."--John Dowling, The History of Romanism, pp. 541-542.


While enduring the early persecutions of the Roman government (65-300 A.D.), most of professing Christianity went through a gradual departure from New Testament doctrine concerning church government, worship and practice. Local churches ceased to be autonomous by giving way to the control of "bishops" ruling over hierarchies. The simple form of worship from the heart was replaced with the rituals and splendor of paganism. Ministers became "priests," and pagans became "Christians" by simply being sprinkled with water. This tolerance of an unregenerate membership only made things worse. SPRINKLED PAGANISM is about the best definition for Roman Catholicism.

The Roman Emperor Constantine established himself as the head of the church around 313 A.D., which made this new "Christianity" the official religion of the Roman Empire. The first actual Pope in Rome was probably Leo I (440-461 A.D.), although some claim that Gregory I was the first (590-604 A.D.). This ungodly system eventually ushered in the darkest period of history known to man, properly known as the "Dark Ages" (500-1500 A.D.). Through popes, bishops, and priests, Satan ruled Europe, and Biblical Christianity became illegal.

Throughout all of this, however, there remained individual groups of true Christians, such as the Waldensens and the Anabaptists who would not conform to the Roman system.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #11 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 04:09:37 »
"On August 24, 1527, Roman Catholics in France, by prearranged plan, under Jesuit influence, murdered 70,000 Protestants within the space of two months. The Pope rejoiced when he heard the news of the successful outcome."-Western Watchman, Nov.21, 1912 (Catholic)

 Do you ever bother to do even the basic checks on these ridiculous quotes.
The answer would appear to be NO

 According to this site (https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83025398/)  the "Western Watchman" was a Baptist newspaper, which ceased publication some time in the 19th century. So it couldn't run an article in 1912.

 The date you are referring to is known as the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. The following is my summary from the book The Catholic Reformation by Henri Daniel-Rops, a French writer who was elected to the Academie Francaise in 1955 (so scholarly).

 On 24th August 1572 Catholics in Paris rose up and slaughtered thousands of Protestants. The massacre lasted until the 27th and involved other parts of France, Estimates of dead in the whole of France range between 8,000 and 30,000.
 
This is sometimes portrayed by Protestants as a deliberate plot by the Catholic Church to rid France of Protestants. The facts are somewhat more complicated and the Church was not directly involved. It happened at the instigation of the (Catholic) King.
 
In 1562 (10 years earlier) there began a 36 year series of wars between Catholics and Protestants in France. These were not set piece battles between huge armies but a series of small scale wars, and local conflicts, interrupted by a few periods of truce. There was much slaughter and many atrocities on both sides.
 
After the Reformation more and more French nobles became Protestant and began to seek to regain the power and privileges that had gradually been whittled away by the Monarchy during the previous hundred years. The King (Charles IX) was underage and the country was ruled by his mother Catherine de Medici, who was a schemer and determined to keep power in her hands, even when Charles came of age (at 13). Part of her scheming was to marry her daughter to the Protestant King Henri of Navarre. As the Protestant nobles gathered in Paris for the wedding (18th August) and fearing her power over the King (and even that of the King himself) was being supplanted by Protestants such as Admiral Coligny, she persuaded the King to take the opportunity to remove the Protestant leaders. The original intention, bad as it was, was only to kill a few leaders. Before the massacre started she began to have doubts and tried to stop it, but it was too late and the killing began. The population awoke to find it going on and took the opportunity to join in and massacre Protestants themselves. And so it escalated.
 
 

AVZ

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #12 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 05:04:50 »
Just shows humanity at it's best, people use the same logic in all facets of life, whether it be politics, religion, or personal views.
Become biased, close one's mind, and become passionate about said bias to the point where the high-fives are out before anyone even considers the evidence or truth.

I think Winsome is applying double standards.
Yes he is absolutely right people should verify facts, I am much in favor of that. But then Catholics should equally submit themselves to considering evidence.

Yet Winsome is very ready to believe in Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Bodily Assumption, Infallibility without checking facts and considering the evidence, solely on the basis because someone says so.

However, when you call out a Catholic for presenting their theories without evidence, they seem to be totally OK with it.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #13 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 05:34:40 »
I think Winsome is applying double standards.
Yes he is absolutely right people should verify facts, I am much in favor of that. But then Catholics should equally submit themselves to considering evidence.

Yet Winsome is very ready to believe in Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Bodily Assumption, Infallibility without checking facts and considering the evidence, solely on the basis because someone says so.

However, when you call out a Catholic for presenting their theories without evidence, they seem to be totally OK with it.


 AVZ,

Before you trash someone you should do some basic research.
 
 Purgatory: I started a thread here http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/purgatory-66928/
I laid out scriptural arguments in 5 posts - #1, #9,#20,# 26, #44 with many scriptural arguments in between
 
Infallibility
: I started a thread here http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/infallibility-74755/msg1054835438/#msg1054835438
with many scriptural arguments.
 
Immaculate Conception; I made a post of this here (post #3)  explaining the scriptural support.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/immaculate-conception-71527/
 
You may not agree with my arguments but don't pretend I haven't made then.

AVZ

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #14 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 06:07:19 »
AVZ,

Before you trash someone you should do some basic research.
 
 Purgatory: I started a thread here http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/purgatory-66928/
I laid out scriptural arguments in 5 posts - #1, #9,#20,# 26, #44 with many scriptural arguments in between
 
Infallibility
: I started a thread here http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/infallibility-74755/msg1054835438/#msg1054835438
with many scriptural arguments.
 
Immaculate Conception; I made a post of this here (post #3)  explaining the scriptural support.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/immaculate-conception-71527/
 
You may not agree with my arguments but don't pretend I haven't made then.


Nobody agrees with your arguments. Only Catholics agree with Catholic arguments, and the only reason why you agree with them is because the church says you must.
If the church would tell you tomorrow that Purgatory does not exist, you will believe it because the church says so.

A Catholic does not seek out evidence, in fact a Catholic is not allowed to seek out evidence for himself. The only evidence a Catholic holds valid, is evidence he is allowed to hold as valid.
The Council of Trent has made this very clear:

"Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, It decrees, that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established. Council of Trent, Session IV"

Offline Alan

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #15 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 06:21:50 »
Nobody agrees with your arguments. Only Catholics agree with Catholic arguments, and the only reason why you agree with them is because the church says you must.
If the church would tell you tomorrow that Purgatory does not exist, you will believe it because the church says so.

A Catholic does not seek out evidence, in fact a Catholic is not allowed to seek out evidence for himself. The only evidence a Catholic holds valid, is evidence he is allowed to hold as valid.
The Council of Trent has made this very clear:

"Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, It decrees, that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established. Council of Trent, Session IV"


If winsome provides scriptural support for Catholic traditions, whether you agree with it or not it's still what is believed to be the truth according to their theology. We could say the same thing regarding Baptists that believe that baptism is required for salvation, or to the apostolic church that believes all gifts, signs, wonders, and miracles are in full effect today. There will always exist theological debates. 

Offline Alan

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #16 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 06:24:01 »
"On August 24, 1527, Roman Catholics in France, by prearranged plan, under Jesuit influence, murdered 70,000 Protestants within the space of two months. The Pope rejoiced when he heard the news of the successful outcome."-Western Watchman, Nov.21, 1912 (Catholic)

Therefore the pope ordered "that malicious and abominable sect of malignants," if they "refuse to abjure, to be crushed like venomous snakes."--Wylie, b. 16, ch. 1.

Decreti, pars ii. causa xxiii. quaest v. can. xlvii: "Those are not to be accounted homicides who, fired with zeal for Mother Church, may have killed excommunicated persons."


 "That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history . . . It is impossible to form a complete conception of the multitude of her victims, and it is quite certain that no powers of imagination can adequately realize their sufferings."--W. E. H. Lecky, History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, vol. 2, p. 32, 1910 edition.  (An excellent though lengthy article describing in detail the right of the Roman Catholic Church to do this, will be found in The Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. 12, p. 266.)

 "For professing faith contrary to the teachings of the Church of Rome, history records the martyrdom of more then one hundred million people. A million Waldenses and Albigenses [Swiss and French Protestants] perished during a crusade proclaimed by Pope Innocent III in 1208. Beginning from the establishment of the Jesuits in 1540 to 1580, nine hundred thousand were destroyed. One hundred and fifty thousand perished by the Inquisition in thirty years. Within the space of thirty-eight years after the edict of Charles V against the Protestants, fifty thousand persons were hanged, beheaded, or burned alive for heresy. Eighteen thousand more perished during the administration of the Duke of Alva in five and a half years."--Brief Bible Readings, p. 16.

There were Waldensians ( Who in 1487 Pope Innocent VIII issued a bull for their extermination ) , Albigensians ( who Pope Innocent III initiated a 20-year military campaign against ), the Huguenots, etc.

"Experience teaches that there is no other remedy for the evil, but to put heretics (Protestants) to death; for the (Romish) church proceeded gradually and tried every remedy: at first she merely excommunicatied them; afterwards she added a fine; then she banished them; and finally she was constrained to put them to death." -Cardinal Bellarmine famous champion of Romanism cited by Schumucker p. 76. The Word of God says... "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.  And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me." John 16:2-3

"You ask if he (the Roman Catholic) were lord in the land, and you were in a minority, if not in numbers yet in power, what would he do to you? That, we say, would entirely depend upon circumstances. If it would benefit the cause of Catholicism, he would tolerate you: If expedient, he would imprison you, banish you, fine you; possibly, he might even hang you. But be assured of one thing: He would never tolerate you for the sake of 'the glorious principles of civil and religious liberty' . . . Catholicism is the most intolerant of creeds. It is intolerance itself, for it is truth itself."--"Civil and Religious Liberty," in The Rambler, 8, Sept, 1851, pp. 174, 178. ["The Rambler" was an English Roman Catholic journal published from 1848 to 1862].

 "From the birth of popery to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than fifty millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors,--an average of more than 40,000 religious murders for every year of the existence of popery to the present day. Of course the average number of victims yearly, was vastly greater, during those gloomy ages when popery was in her glory and reigned despot of the world; and it has been much less since the power of the popes has diminished to tyrannize over the nations, and to compel the princes of the earth, by the terrors of excommunication, interdiction, and deposition, to butcher their heretical subjects."--John Dowling, The History of Romanism, pp. 541-542.


While enduring the early persecutions of the Roman government (65-300 A.D.), most of professing Christianity went through a gradual departure from New Testament doctrine concerning church government, worship and practice. Local churches ceased to be autonomous by giving way to the control of "bishops" ruling over hierarchies. The simple form of worship from the heart was replaced with the rituals and splendor of paganism. Ministers became "priests," and pagans became "Christians" by simply being sprinkled with water. This tolerance of an unregenerate membership only made things worse. SPRINKLED PAGANISM is about the best definition for Roman Catholicism.

The Roman Emperor Constantine established himself as the head of the church around 313 A.D., which made this new "Christianity" the official religion of the Roman Empire. The first actual Pope in Rome was probably Leo I (440-461 A.D.), although some claim that Gregory I was the first (590-604 A.D.). This ungodly system eventually ushered in the darkest period of history known to man, properly known as the "Dark Ages" (500-1500 A.D.). Through popes, bishops, and priests, Satan ruled Europe, and Biblical Christianity became illegal.

Throughout all of this, however, there remained individual groups of true Christians, such as the Waldensens and the Anabaptists who would not conform to the Roman system.


I will begin deleting posts if you do not provide sources, so be forewarned, check your sources for accuracy.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #17 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 07:19:57 »
Nobody agrees with your arguments. Only Catholics agree with Catholic arguments, and the only reason why you agree with them is because the church says you must.
If the church would tell you tomorrow that Purgatory does not exist, you will believe it because the church says so.

A Catholic does not seek out evidence, in fact a Catholic is not allowed to seek out evidence for himself. The only evidence a Catholic holds valid, is evidence he is allowed to hold as valid.

You are a genius with those comments and I would like to add to them. Only Baptists argree with Baptist arguments.  Only JW's agree with JW arguments. Only Mormons agree with Mormon arguments. Duh! See how that goes?

As to your second paragraph, this is partially true. Our theologins are given wide latitudede to expolre the boundaries of theological thought, but must compare those musings with what the Church teaches. The average Catholic can think things through for himself, but likewise should always compare what they think to the teachings of the Church. If the person of their own free will cannot reconcile their thoughts to that of the Chruch Magisterium they need to seek answers somewhere else - it's called having faith in those whom God has placed over you as your religious leaders here on earth.

We have seen where allowing people to seek their own evidence as regarding scriptural truth has led certain parts of Christianity, a process which has resulted in thousands of different Christian sects each with their own "truth". That my friend is nothing to crow about - it is nothing less than madness and confusion all over the place.
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 07:22:49 by Ladonia »

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #18 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 07:32:34 »

"Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, It decrees, that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established. Council of Trent, Session IV"

In addition to Ladonia's reply I might add that (according to KiwiChristian) the Catholic Church "has officially interpreted 0.01% of the Bible ! LOL!" so even on Trent's terms that leave 99.9% which Catholics are free to interpret without any help from anyone. But in any case Trent only warns against "relying on his own skill".

Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit only assists Protestants?

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #19 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 07:51:55 »
We have seen where allowing people to seek their own evidence as regarding scriptural truth has led certain parts of Christianity, a process which has resulted in thousands of different Christian sects each with their own "truth". That my friend is nothing to crow about - it is nothing less than madness and confusion all over the place.
But that, in itself, does not affirm or deny the teachings of any sect, including the Catholic Church, as being truth.  I would posit that there is as much "madness and confusion" in the teachings of the Catholic Church as in any other major sect of Christendom.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #20 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 07:55:00 »
"That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history . . . It is impossible to form a complete conception of the multitude of her victims, and it is quite certain that no powers of imagination can adequately realize their sufferings."--W. E. H. Lecky, History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, vol. 2, p. 32, 1910 edition.


Another of KiwiChristian's carefully excised quotations.
What was cut out and obscured by the '......' ?

The answer is the words "The memorials, indeed, of many of her persecutions are now so scanty, that"

Deception 1. He has excised the part that admits there is little or evidence of these supposed atrocities.

Deception 2. The sentence after the '...' is changed to start with a capital letter to pretend it's complete sentence with nothing missed out.

W. E. H. Lecky was an Irish Protestant. So while we are on the subject of Ireland, we need to understand the hatred that Irish Protestants had for Catholics.

Here are some of the penal laws drawn up by King Billy (William of Orange (1689-1702) against Catholics in Ireland:
  • Catholics could not vote
  • Catholics were excluded from all professions and public offices
  • Catholics were not allowed a university education
  • Catholics could not teach children
  • Catholics could not be the guardian of a child
  • Catholic men could not marry Protestant women. Catholic women could marry Protestant men because children were brought up in the faith of their father: any children from this sort of mixed marriage would be brought up as Protestants
  • Catholics could not buy land
  • Catholics could not own a horse worth more than £5
  • Catholics could not be given, be sold, or be bequeathed land by Protestants
  • All land owned by a Catholic had to be equally divided among his sons on his death, unless one son was a Protestant, in which case he got it all. The law of primogeniture was suspended for Catholics
  • All priests had to be registered. All Bishops were exiled.
  • Catholic Churches could have neither bells nor steeples
  • Pilgrimages were forbidden
Priests did not officially exist since Anglicanism was the established Church. Priests relied on their congregations for gifts of food and money for their survival, while Anglican clergy had vast estates and few parishioners. Roman Catholics had to pay tithes (one tenth of their income) to the Anglican Church, and often paid rents as well.
http://www.historyhome.co.uk/c-eight/ireland/penal.htm

How objective do you think W E H Lecky was in his comments about Catholics?

 

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #21 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 08:02:30 »
We know that Pope Francis implied that faith in Christ is not necessary for salvation.

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #22 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 08:16:42 »
We know that Pope Francis implied that faith in Christ is not necessary for salvation.

While you find a reference for that, didn't Paul imply something similar:
All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:12-16)

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #23 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 08:30:10 »
You are a genius with those comments and I would like to add to them. Only Baptists argree with Baptist arguments.  Only JW's agree with JW arguments. Only Mormons agree with Mormon arguments. Duh! See how that goes?

As to your second paragraph, this is partially true. Our theologins are given wide latitudede to expolre the boundaries of theological thought, but must compare those musings with what the Church teaches. The average Catholic can think things through for himself, but likewise should always compare what they think to the teachings of the Church. If the person of their own free will cannot reconcile their thoughts to that of the Chruch Magisterium they need to seek answers somewhere else - it's called having faith in those whom God has placed over you as your religious leaders here on earth.

We have seen where allowing people to seek their own evidence as regarding scriptural truth has led certain parts of Christianity, a process which has resulted in thousands of different Christian sects each with their own "truth". That my friend is nothing to crow about - it is nothing less than madness and confusion all over the place.

You are absolutely correct with your statement about Baptists, JW's and Mormons. But there are similarities and differences with RCC theology on this matter.

A JW must accept JW theology, he is not allowed to think otherwise. Mormons are in the same boat. Both religions condemn those who do not accept their teachings.
Something quite similar is happening within Catholicism. The member is strongly discouraged, and condemned, to explore evidence for himself.

In Baptism however exploring scripture and pursuing evidence is strongly encouraged. When a member believes, he believes with his own faculties and not because he is either under an enforcement or anathema.

The risk you are exposed to, a church who decides for you what to believe, is exactly the same risk JW's and Mormons take.
All of you are facing the same dilemma. Mormons trust their infallibility, JW's trust in JW infallibility, and Catholics trust theirs.
And yet all of you say of each other that sticking to infallibility and not interpreting for yourself is wrong.

Imagine you sit with a Mormon and you want to give him the gospel. The Mormon says that he cannot believe what you believe because his church tells him he cannot.
Would you consider that a pity? Would you hope the Mormon would release himself from his bondage by his church?
And yet you are in the exact same position he is in.

Finally, and I wanted to respond to this for some time, so thanks for bringing it up...
All Protestant denominations have differences, but at the core all believe in the same truths. When it comes to grace, justification and sanctification you will find almost no differences.
When you get rid of the externals and you go straight to the point, you will find massive agreement between the denominations.
And within Protestantism each believer came to that core with his own faculties and not because his church told him to.

What you will also find inherently included in the liberties to explore scripture is a system and attitude that refrains itself from declaring other people anathema.
Contrary to the RCC, you will not find Baptists calling Methodists anathema because there is a difference in doctrine.

And of all the people on this board, with all their differences and opinions, you will find none who declares the other unsaved or condemned.
When it comes to the RCC however, all of us non Catholics are condemned.

Yes we may be thousands of denominations, but through it all we believe that God saves people regardless of their denomination.
We truly expect to be in heaven with Baptists, Methodists, Reformed, Presbyterians, Anglicans, you name it...even Catholics.
We are in fact far more united than what you proclaim we are, we are so united that we can imagine eternity together.

Can your church imagine eternity with non Catholics? What does your church say about those who do not accept Catholic doctrine?

We also share Holy Communion together. We are divided, but yet we can share the Lord's Supper with each other.
How about you? Does your church allow you to sit at our table?

You think you see massive division when you look at all these different denominations.
Fortunately however, at the core we are very united.

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #24 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 08:36:35 »
Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit only assists Protestants?

I am actually suggesting that the RCC does not think its members have the Holy Spirit.
If Catholics have the Holy Spirit, why stop them from interpreting scripture by themselves?

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #25 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 08:40:22 »
I am actually suggesting that the RCC does not think its members have the Holy Spirit.
If Catholics have the Holy Spirit, why stop them from interpreting scripture by themselves?

I'm sure you think all Protestants think they have the Holy Spirit, which is why we have 40,000 different Protestant denominations, sects and one-pastor churches all teaching different and conflicting doctrines based on personal interpretation guided by the Holy Spirit.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #26 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 08:48:01 »
 
The Roman Emperor Constantine established himself as the head of the church around 313 A.D., which made this new "Christianity" the official religion of the Roman Empire. The first actual Pope in Rome was probably Leo I (440-461 A.D.), although some claim that Gregory I was the first (590-604 A.D.). This ungodly system eventually ushered in the darkest period of history known to man, properly known as the "Dark Ages" (500-1500 A.D.). Through popes, bishops, and priests, Satan ruled Europe, and Biblical Christianity became illegal.
 

 This is a load of unhistorical nonsense

 No Roman Emperor was ever head of the Catholic Church. The Pope was.

 The Catholic Church was not made the official state religion of the Roman Empire until Theodosius in the East and Gratian in the West in 380 AD.
 The date 313 ADwas when Constantine (in the West) and Galerius (in the East) agreed the Edict of Milan in which they agreed to both stop persecuting Christians.
This gave no preferential treatment of Christians but put them on the same footing as pagans as regards taxes etc .
 http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp
 
In between Constantine and Theodosius came the pagan Emperor known as Julian the Apostate (but probably not to his face).
He didn't last long (probably murdered by Jesuits on your thinking)
 
The term "dark ages" was originally coined by archaeologists for the period after the fall of Rome. When civilisation collapsed many skills disappeared such as writing, making bricks for houses and clay pots. As a result such things were made of wood which rotted away. Thus there were few archaeological finds. The record disappeared.

This "dark ages" because it was 'spiritually dark' seems to be an SDA invention.
 

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #27 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 08:55:48 »
While you find a reference for that, didn't Paul imply something similar:
All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:12-16)


My reference is in the Theology forum.  And no Paul did not imply that.

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #28 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 09:02:35 »
I'm sure you think all Protestants think they have the Holy Spirit, which is why we have 40,000 different Protestant denominations, sects and one-pastor churches all teaching different and conflicting doctrines based on personal interpretation guided by the Holy Spirit.

Nope. I think every believer has the Holy Spirit who guides them to the truth. Unfortunately it is our human nature that corrupts our understanding of the truth.
Similarly I believe that every believing Catholic has the Holy Spirit, but his understanding is corrupted by the doctrines of the church.

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #29 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 09:25:06 »


I am praying  and  hoping that  all of the Catholic  Churches have changed
now since I last went...... I was in my 50 and Catholic  !  I am now 82yrs.

Our children  got us to go to a different Church and my husband and I
got  saved......    And I am now  writing to a girl friend that I have know
since we were 4 and 5 years of age......  she still goes to the C.C.
And from what she says  when I asked her a few times ,  I can now see
she is saved........   Sure do hope  they are now all changing .

We were not ever told to get a bible!

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #30 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 10:17:55 »

My reference is in the Theology forum.  And no Paul did not imply that.

So it's irrelevant to this thread as you are already discussing it elsewhere. Just trying to create an argument where non is neccessary.


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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #31 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 10:47:37 »

I am praying  and  hoping that  all of the Catholic  Churches have changed
now since I last went...... I was in my 50 and Catholic  !  I am now 82yrs.

Our children  got us to go to a different Church and my husband and I
got  saved......    And I am now  writing to a girl friend that I have know
since we were 4 and 5 years of age......  she still goes to the C.C.
And from what she says  when I asked her a few times ,  I can now see
she is saved........   Sure do hope  they are now all changing .

We were not ever told to get a bible!



There has been significant change since then Grams.  I was married in a Catholic church in 1992.  It was not important that I was not Catholic, and the only stipulation concerning our children is that they be brought up Christian.  Only a few years earlier my brother in law's fiancee had to convert and the children brought up Catholic before the church would marry them.

Every Catholic family I know has a Bible now, although I trust you are correct in saying it was not encouraged many years ago.

Our church and the Catholic church next door have a wonderful relationship based on mutual beliefs, ::groupprayer:: although we do not subscribe to many of what Catholicism endorses.  ::crazy:: Half my family is Catholic, I will see them in heaven, and then I can say, "I told you so." ::nana::

 ::smile::

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #32 on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 11:01:57 »


There has been significant change since then Grams.  I was married in a Catholic church in 1992.  It was not important that I was not Catholic, and the only stipulation concerning our children is that they be brought up Christian.  Only a few years earlier my brother in law's fiancee had to convert and the children brought up Catholic before the church would marry them.

Every Catholic family I know has a Bible now, although I trust you are correct in saying it was not encouraged many years ago.

Our church and the Catholic church next door have a wonderful relationship based on mutual beliefs, ::groupprayer:: although we do not subscribe to many of what Catholicism endorses.  ::crazy:: Half my family is Catholic, I will see them in heaven, and then I can say, "I told you so." ::nana::

 ::smile::


Excellent Carey!  ::smile::

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Re: Catholic Quotations
« Reply #33 on: Fri Apr 20, 2018 - 07:45:02 »


Back  in my  time,  it  was the prayer book  and the rosary !   Only......

And the Latin  Mass......