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Author Topic: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin  (Read 6774 times)

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Angelos

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Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« on: February 18, 2010, 05:13:34 PM »

To worship Mary would be a grave sin, because worship is reserved for God alone. So why do Catholics pray to Mary and venerate statues of her?


Catholics venerate, or honor, Mary in prayer and song. Some people mistake prayer and veneration for worship, but to Catholics, they aren‘t the same thing. Prayer is simply entering into communication with a holy spirit. Veneration is giving special honor to a saint. Worship is for God alone, and Catholics worship only God through the mass.


Critics of Marion devotion say that the Bible doesn’t say to honor Mary, and therefore it shouldn’t be done. However, in Luke’s gospel, Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said “Blessed are you among women

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Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« on: February 18, 2010, 05:13:34 PM »

Offline Selene

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 05:45:11 PM »
Excellent post!   ::smile::   ::priest::

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 05:45:11 PM »

Offline Grinandbearit

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 06:09:34 PM »
How did Mary have a problem pregnancy????

Angelos

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 06:25:32 PM »
How did Mary have a problem pregnancy?

Answer: She was not married when she got pregnant, a very serious offense at the time

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 06:25:32 PM »

Offline sharonb

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2010, 09:44:08 AM »
You get a manna for that one, angelos

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2010, 09:44:08 AM »



larry2

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2010, 08:36:24 PM »

Bump

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2010, 04:01:31 AM »

To worship Mary would be a grave sin, because worship is reserved for God alone. So why do Catholics pray to Mary and venerate statues of her?


Catholics venerate, or honor, Mary in prayer and song. Some people mistake prayer and veneration for worship, but to Catholics, they aren‘t the same thing. Prayer is simply entering into communication with a holy spirit. Veneration is giving special honor to a saint. Worship is for God alone, and Catholics worship only God through the mass.


Critics of Marion devotion say that the Bible doesn’t say to honor Mary, and therefore it shouldn’t be done. However, in Luke’s gospel, Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said “Blessed are you among women

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2010, 04:43:35 AM »

Can someone show scripture Mary ascended to heaven or that she did not die.? Please.


Your request is unreasonable. It implies a sola scriptura approach.  Scripture Alone is a false practice. It is not the practice of the Church. It was not the practice of the early Church. It was not the practice of Christians for the first 1500 years.

There is a precedent for the taking up from this earth of the body and soul of a person in Enoch and Elijah. Also we are told that after Jesus’ death:
tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. (Mt 27:52-53)

We are not told what happened to these saints, whether they lived normal lives, died and were buried again, or whether they too were assumed into heaven. There is an early tradition that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into a temporary state often called “paradise

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2010, 04:47:42 AM »
So why waste your time praying direct to a dead saint who does not have God's full supernatural power to answer your prayer - and who probably won’t even hear or pick up your prayer anyway since the chances of that dead saint being tuned into your specific prayer at a specific time are probably a million to one.

When Jesus was walking in the New Testament – He specifically told us that we are to pray direct to God the Father if we have any specific needs that must be met. There is not one verse that I am aware of where He told us that we could also pray direct to dead saints. If God the Father wanted this possibility as an option, then I believe Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament - but He did not!


We ask the Saints to pray for us. On your reckoning why do we ask anyone to pray for us? Yet Paul asked others to pray for him. Are you suggesting Paul was wrong?

"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak."
(Eph 6:19-20)

"At the same time pray for us as well....."
(Col 4:3)

"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)

"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)

“Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honourably in all things.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2010, 04:48:58 AM »

Is praying to Mary and the dead not worshiping?


No.

And Catholics don't pray to the dead.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 05:16:06 AM by winsome »

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2010, 04:50:20 AM »
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

5 For the living know that they will die,
       but the dead know nothing;
       they have no further reward,
       and even the memory of them is forgotten.

 6 Their love, their hate
       and their jealousy have long since vanished;
       never again will they have a part
       in anything that happens under the sun.



Does this quote have a purpose? Or is it just a random quote from scripture?

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2010, 05:41:37 AM »
I just have to ask a question. No one is saying that Mary is not to have a place of honor. Truly she is blessed among women.. I would just like to ask and i know this has been brought up before. Why is there no more mention of Mary in the scriptures after the gospels by the apostles? Also is there any letters from the early church fathers mentioning a Marion doctrine before 500 AD. or before Constantine? If so please post it

Can some one tell me when did the Marian doctrine begin? The closest I get to it is maybe the Council of Ephesus 421 AD, but i couldn't find anything that was very specific. The question is when where and why? Who decided  that there was a Marian doctrine. I believe these questions are important in establishing why you even believe this doctrine. It doesn't  have a stamp of the apostles on it. it does not have a stamp the any of the early church fathers on it. So how did we get this doctrine?  How did it get an official stamp of the church of Rome four hundred years after the church was born?. Did someone  just decide it was a doctrine out of the blue. There had to be a reason for this doctrine that served some purpose. What was that purpose? I mean other than just honoring Mary.

Even if you have no answer for me then just think about it. Why do you believe it? Is it because someone gave a reason that sounds good? Or just because the church if Rome says that it is a true doctrine over 400 years after  the church was born and no evidence of it prior. Lets think now. Seriously


Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2010, 06:27:08 AM »
I just have to ask a question. No one is saying that Mary is not to have a place of honor. Truly she is blessed among women.. I would just like to ask and i know this has been brought up before. Why is there no more mention of Mary in the scriptures after the gospels by the apostles? Also is there any letters from the early church fathers mentioning a Marion doctrine before 500 AD. or before Constantine? If so please post it

Can some one tell me when did the Marian doctrine begin? The closest I get to it is maybe the Council of Ephesus 421 AD, but i couldn't find anything that was very specific. The question is when where and why? Who decided  that there was a Marian doctrine. I believe these questions are important in establishing why you even believe this doctrine. It doesn't  have a stamp of the apostles on it. it does not have a stamp the any of the early church fathers on it. So how did we get this doctrine?  How did it get an official stamp of the church of Rome four hundred years after the church was born?. Did someone  just decide it was a doctrine out of the blue. There had to be a reason for this doctrine that served some purpose. What was that purpose? I mean other than just honoring Mary.

Even if you have no answer for me then just think about it. Why do you believe it? Is it because someone gave a reason that sounds good? Or just because the church if Rome says that it is a true doctrine over 400 years after  the church was born and no evidence of it prior. Lets think now. Seriously



I don’t know which particular doctrine you are referring to but since you mention the Council of Ephesus (431) let’s take the dogma defined there that Mary was the mother of God (theotokos = God bearer). This was not defined to honour Mary, although it does, but to refute the Nestorian heresy. This claimed that that Mary did not carry God but only carried Christ’s human nature in her womb. But a woman carries a person in her womb, not just a human nature. Mary carried, and gave birth to, the person of Jesus Christ, and that person was God, the second person of the Trinity.

Nestorians claimed that Mary did not give birth to a unified person but tried to separate Jesus’ human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate persons, one human and one divine in a loose affiliation.

The Council of Ephesus was defining the unity of Christ as one person, both truly man and truly God.

Here are some quotes from early fathers:

"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Iranaeus - Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

"[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]" (Hippolytus - Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

"While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled" (Methodius - Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

"We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God" (Peter of Jerusalem - Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).


« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 06:38:46 AM by winsome »

Offline DAN1

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2010, 09:55:40 AM »
So why waste your time praying direct to a dead saint who does not have God's full supernatural power to answer your prayer - and who probably won’t even hear or pick up your prayer anyway since the chances of that dead saint being tuned into your specific prayer at a specific time are probably a million to one.

When Jesus was walking in the New Testament – He specifically told us that we are to pray direct to God the Father if we have any specific needs that must be met. There is not one verse that I am aware of where He told us that we could also pray direct to dead saints. If God the Father wanted this possibility as an option, then I believe Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament - but He did not!


We ask the Saints to pray for us. On your reckoning why do we ask anyone to pray for us? Yet Paul asked others to pray for him. Are you suggesting Paul was wrong?

"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak."
(Eph 6:19-20)

"At the same time pray for us as well....."
(Col 4:3)

"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)

"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)

“Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honourably in all things.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 06:17:06 PM by larry2 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2010, 10:13:56 AM »

"Yet Paul asked others to pray for him. Are you suggesting Paul was wrong?"

 Do you understand fully what Paul was saying?

Paul is saying the living can pray for the living!

where is scripture that the living can pray to the dead?

To the moderators. If a member complains that this post offends?  please delete.


Do Catholics pray to dead Popes? or dead members of their family?

If this post offends please delete.



We believe Mary and the Saints are alive in heaven. We are therefore asking the living to pray for us, just as Paul did.