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Author Topic: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin  (Read 6776 times)

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Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2010, 08:35:48 AM »

      
       but rescue us from dangers,
        only pure, only blessed one.


      

Dear desertknight, I hear repeatedly that Catholics do not pray to Mary, but that they only seek her prayers for them. Do you really consider the above petition to Mary asking for her prayers only and how so please? Thanks.

Because it very clearly says that in the line just above the ones you quoted...

"do not despise our petitions in time of trouble"

"Petitions", that is what prayers to the saints are;  petitions for them to 'pray for us', thereby helping to "rescue us from dangers".  I think Ryan went over the changing definition of the word "prayer" or to "pray",


Now according to this I can so choose what apostle or recognized saint I want to pray to and I do not haft to petition directly to God or Jesus. I can go the long way around and have A saint petition for me. Something is not right here.  ::pondering:: ???

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2010, 08:35:48 AM »

Offline desertknight

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2010, 08:52:09 AM »

      
       but rescue us from dangers,
        only pure, only blessed one.


      

Dear desertknight, I hear repeatedly that Catholics do not pray to Mary, but that they only seek her prayers for them. Do you really consider the above petition to Mary asking for her prayers only and how so please? Thanks.

Because it very clearly says that in the line just above the ones you quoted...

"do not despise our petitions in time of trouble"

"Petitions", that is what prayers to the saints are;  petitions for them to 'pray for us', thereby helping to "rescue us from dangers".  I think Ryan went over the changing definition of the word "prayer" or to "pray",


Now according to this I can so choose what apostle or recognized saint I want to pray to and I do not haft to petition directly to God or Jesus. I can go the long way around and have A saint petition for me. Something is not right here.  ::pondering:: ???

Really?  You have never "gone the long way around"  and asked a family member or loved one to pray for you?  You've never offered to pray for anyone else?  Never said, "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.  I will pray for you", or "I'll remember you in my prayers"?  That's odd.  Even among my non-Catholic friends, it is a common practice.  

You are doing exactly the same with prayers to the Saints.  It is not as any replacement for prayers to God, which are still the vast majority of the prayers I say, nor is it adding a step, an intermediary, between you and God, but simply as a petition to be remembered in someone else's prayers.  I have a young nephew in the rock music business who is leading a life that is fraught with danger.  I always pray that God may "rescue him from danger", that our Blessed Mother, may look as a mother to him and petition her Son to do just that and help preserve him from the snares of the devil.  Surly there is something quite right in that.

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2010, 08:52:09 AM »

Offline JustChristian

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2010, 09:31:51 AM »
In my vernacular, a petition IS a prayer to God. I have prayers of thanksgiving plus prayer of petitions for HIM to intervene in situations.
That's not really fair though.  It's important that you judge Catholic practice according to how the Catholic Church uses a word, not only by how you use it.  Judging Catholic practice by YOUR vernacular alone is likely to cause a misinterpretation of Catholic practice.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2010, 09:45:19 AM »
"If Apostles and martyrs, whilst still in the flesh and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they pray for others after they have won their crowns, their victories, their triumphs? Moses, one man, obtains God’s pardon for six hundred thousand armed men, and Stephen prays for his persecutors. When they are with Christ, will they be less powerful? Paul says that two hundred and seventy-six souls were granted to his prayers, whilst they were in a ship with him. Shall he close his lips after death, and not mutter a syllable for those who throughout the world have believed in his gospel?" (Jerome 4th century)

Sounds reasonable to me.

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2010, 09:45:19 AM »

Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2010, 10:03:22 AM »
In my vernacular, a petition IS a prayer to God. I have prayers of thanksgiving plus prayer of petitions for HIM to intervene in situations.

That's not really fair though.  It's important that you judge Catholic practice according to how the Catholic Church uses a word, not only by how you use it.  Judging Catholic practice by YOUR vernacular alone is likely to cause a misinterpretation of Catholic practice.

I'm Orthodox and the word "prayer" is used in different ways too.  I mean, it's not like our own private interpretation.  Communion of the Saints and the veneration of them goes back to the beginning.  I mean, look at the account of St. Ignatius martyrdom.  Look at some of the biblical accounts that even touch on "intercession of the Saints".  Of course, the protestants adopted the anti-Christian canon that the Jews adopted post-Christiandom and won't accept those scriptures as "inspired" but regardless, the Septuagint was what the Apostles make direct quotes from in the very books they do accept. 

 ::pickinguprock::


God bless

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2010, 10:03:22 AM »



Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2010, 10:32:42 AM »
Of course, the protestants adopted the anti-Christian canon that the Jews adopted post-Christiandom and won't accept those scriptures as "inspired"

Perhaps we ought to have a thread on "Why do you protestants remove books from the Bible when scripture tells us not to (Rev 22:19)"  rofl

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2010, 10:42:03 AM »

      
       but rescue us from dangers,
        only pure, only blessed one.


      

Dear desertknight, I hear repeatedly that Catholics do not pray to Mary, but that they only seek her prayers for them. Do you really consider the above petition to Mary asking for her prayers only and how so please? Thanks.

Because it very clearly says that in the line just above the ones you quoted...

"do not despise our petitions in time of trouble"

"Petitions", that is what prayers to the saints are;  petitions for them to 'pray for us', thereby helping to "rescue us from dangers".  I think Ryan went over the changing definition of the word "prayer" or to "pray",


Now according to this I can so choose what apostle or recognized saint I want to pray to and I do not haft to petition directly to God or Jesus. I can go the long way around and have A saint petition for me. Something is not right here.  ::pondering:: ???

Really?  You have never "gone the long way around"  and asked a family member or loved one to pray for you?  You've never offered to pray for anyone else?  Never said, "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.  I will pray for you", or "I'll remember you in my prayers"?  That's odd.  Even among my non-Catholic friends, it is a common practice.  

You are doing exactly the same with prayers to the Saints.  It is not as any replacement for prayers to God, which are still the vast majority of the prayers I say, nor is it adding a step, an intermediary, between you and God, but simply as a petition to be remembered in someone else's prayers.  I have a young nephew in the rock music business who is leading a life that is fraught with danger.  I always pray that God may "rescue him from danger", that our Blessed Mother, may look as a mother to him and petition her Son to do just that and help preserve him from the snares of the devil.  Surly there is something quite right in that.

I do have some thoughts here, but I'm short of time now. I will reply shortly

Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2010, 10:45:53 AM »
Of course, the protestants adopted the anti-Christian canon that the Jews adopted post-Christiandom and won't accept those scriptures as "inspired"

Perhaps we ought to have a thread on "Why do you protestants remove books from the Bible when scripture tells us not to (Rev 22:19)"  rofl

Well, that verse only applies to Catholics and Orthodox because when the bible fell down out of the sky we added those other books that protestants don't have.  We're doomed.  

It's very dangerous to look into the canon.  There's always the potential that you might lose face.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 06:42:46 PM by Ryan2010 »

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2010, 09:50:24 PM »

Can someone show scripture Mary ascended to heaven or that she did not die.? Please.


Your request is unreasonable. It implies a sola scriptura approach.  Scripture Alone is a false practice. It is not the practice of the Church. It was not the practice of the early Church. It was not the practice of Christians for the first 1500 years.

There is a precedent for the taking up from this earth of the body and soul of a person in Enoch and Elijah. Also we are told that after Jesus’ death:
tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. (Mt 27:52-53)

We are not told what happened to these saints, whether they lived normal lives, died and were buried again, or whether they too were assumed into heaven. There is an early tradition that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into a temporary state often called “paradise
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 11:07:27 PM by larry2 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2010, 01:20:06 PM »

Can someone show scripture Mary ascended to heaven or that she did not die.? Please.


Your request is unreasonable. It implies a sola scriptura approach.  Scripture Alone is a false practice. It is not the practice of the Church. It was not the practice of the early Church. It was not the practice of Christians for the first 1500 years.

There is a precedent for the taking up from this earth of the body and soul of a person in Enoch and Elijah. Also we are told that after Jesus’ death:
tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. (Mt 27:52-53)

We are not told what happened to these saints, whether they lived normal lives, died and were buried again, or whether they too were assumed into heaven. There is an early tradition that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into a temporary state often called “paradise

Offline BaLou

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2010, 10:52:08 AM »
I believe your post is excellent Angelos!! Just another example of what others believe to be true about the Catholic Church, which it is not. Catholics venerate (to regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference) Mary, they don't worship her!

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2010, 11:13:14 AM »
I believe your post is excellent Angelos!! Just another example of what others believe to be true about the Catholic Church, which it is not. Catholics venerate (to regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference) Mary, they don't worship her!

I think part of the problem is Protestants have a limited understanding of worship. They don't understand the role of sacrifice (i.e the Mass) in worship. For them worship just means praise, so if we praise Mary they think it's worshipping her.

Offline BaLou

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2010, 11:50:03 AM »
That's a very good point winsome!