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Author Topic: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin  (Read 7812 times)

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Angelos

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Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« on: Thu Feb 18, 2010 - 18:13:34 »

To worship Mary would be a grave sin, because worship is reserved for God alone. So why do Catholics pray to Mary and venerate statues of her?


Catholics venerate, or honor, Mary in prayer and song. Some people mistake prayer and veneration for worship, but to Catholics, they aren‘t the same thing. Prayer is simply entering into communication with a holy spirit. Veneration is giving special honor to a saint. Worship is for God alone, and Catholics worship only God through the mass.


Critics of Marion devotion say that the Bible doesn’t say to honor Mary, and therefore it shouldn’t be done. However, in Luke’s gospel, Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said “Blessed are you among women

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Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« on: Thu Feb 18, 2010 - 18:13:34 »

Offline Selene

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #1 on: Thu Feb 18, 2010 - 18:45:11 »
Excellent post!   ::smile::   ::priest::

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #1 on: Thu Feb 18, 2010 - 18:45:11 »

Offline Grinandbearit

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #2 on: Thu Feb 18, 2010 - 19:09:34 »
How did Mary have a problem pregnancy????

Angelos

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #3 on: Thu Feb 18, 2010 - 19:25:32 »
How did Mary have a problem pregnancy?

Answer: She was not married when she got pregnant, a very serious offense at the time

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #3 on: Thu Feb 18, 2010 - 19:25:32 »

Offline sharonb

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #4 on: Fri Feb 19, 2010 - 10:44:08 »
You get a manna for that one, angelos

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #4 on: Fri Feb 19, 2010 - 10:44:08 »



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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #5 on: Sun Mar 21, 2010 - 21:36:24 »

Bump

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #6 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 05:01:31 »

To worship Mary would be a grave sin, because worship is reserved for God alone. So why do Catholics pray to Mary and venerate statues of her?


Catholics venerate, or honor, Mary in prayer and song. Some people mistake prayer and veneration for worship, but to Catholics, they aren‘t the same thing. Prayer is simply entering into communication with a holy spirit. Veneration is giving special honor to a saint. Worship is for God alone, and Catholics worship only God through the mass.


Critics of Marion devotion say that the Bible doesn’t say to honor Mary, and therefore it shouldn’t be done. However, in Luke’s gospel, Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said “Blessed are you among women

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #7 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 05:43:35 »

Can someone show scripture Mary ascended to heaven or that she did not die.? Please.


Your request is unreasonable. It implies a sola scriptura approach.  Scripture Alone is a false practice. It is not the practice of the Church. It was not the practice of the early Church. It was not the practice of Christians for the first 1500 years.

There is a precedent for the taking up from this earth of the body and soul of a person in Enoch and Elijah. Also we are told that after Jesus’ death:
tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. (Mt 27:52-53)

We are not told what happened to these saints, whether they lived normal lives, died and were buried again, or whether they too were assumed into heaven. There is an early tradition that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into a temporary state often called “paradise

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #8 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 05:47:42 »
So why waste your time praying direct to a dead saint who does not have God's full supernatural power to answer your prayer - and who probably won’t even hear or pick up your prayer anyway since the chances of that dead saint being tuned into your specific prayer at a specific time are probably a million to one.

When Jesus was walking in the New Testament – He specifically told us that we are to pray direct to God the Father if we have any specific needs that must be met. There is not one verse that I am aware of where He told us that we could also pray direct to dead saints. If God the Father wanted this possibility as an option, then I believe Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament - but He did not!


We ask the Saints to pray for us. On your reckoning why do we ask anyone to pray for us? Yet Paul asked others to pray for him. Are you suggesting Paul was wrong?

"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak."
(Eph 6:19-20)

"At the same time pray for us as well....."
(Col 4:3)

"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)

"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)

“Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honourably in all things.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #9 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 05:48:58 »

Is praying to Mary and the dead not worshiping?


No.

And Catholics don't pray to the dead.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 06:16:06 by winsome »

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #10 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 05:50:20 »
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

5 For the living know that they will die,
       but the dead know nothing;
       they have no further reward,
       and even the memory of them is forgotten.

 6 Their love, their hate
       and their jealousy have long since vanished;
       never again will they have a part
       in anything that happens under the sun.



Does this quote have a purpose? Or is it just a random quote from scripture?

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #11 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 06:41:37 »
I just have to ask a question. No one is saying that Mary is not to have a place of honor. Truly she is blessed among women.. I would just like to ask and i know this has been brought up before. Why is there no more mention of Mary in the scriptures after the gospels by the apostles? Also is there any letters from the early church fathers mentioning a Marion doctrine before 500 AD. or before Constantine? If so please post it

Can some one tell me when did the Marian doctrine begin? The closest I get to it is maybe the Council of Ephesus 421 AD, but i couldn't find anything that was very specific. The question is when where and why? Who decided  that there was a Marian doctrine. I believe these questions are important in establishing why you even believe this doctrine. It doesn't  have a stamp of the apostles on it. it does not have a stamp the any of the early church fathers on it. So how did we get this doctrine?  How did it get an official stamp of the church of Rome four hundred years after the church was born?. Did someone  just decide it was a doctrine out of the blue. There had to be a reason for this doctrine that served some purpose. What was that purpose? I mean other than just honoring Mary.

Even if you have no answer for me then just think about it. Why do you believe it? Is it because someone gave a reason that sounds good? Or just because the church if Rome says that it is a true doctrine over 400 years after  the church was born and no evidence of it prior. Lets think now. Seriously


Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #12 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 07:27:08 »
I just have to ask a question. No one is saying that Mary is not to have a place of honor. Truly she is blessed among women.. I would just like to ask and i know this has been brought up before. Why is there no more mention of Mary in the scriptures after the gospels by the apostles? Also is there any letters from the early church fathers mentioning a Marion doctrine before 500 AD. or before Constantine? If so please post it

Can some one tell me when did the Marian doctrine begin? The closest I get to it is maybe the Council of Ephesus 421 AD, but i couldn't find anything that was very specific. The question is when where and why? Who decided  that there was a Marian doctrine. I believe these questions are important in establishing why you even believe this doctrine. It doesn't  have a stamp of the apostles on it. it does not have a stamp the any of the early church fathers on it. So how did we get this doctrine?  How did it get an official stamp of the church of Rome four hundred years after the church was born?. Did someone  just decide it was a doctrine out of the blue. There had to be a reason for this doctrine that served some purpose. What was that purpose? I mean other than just honoring Mary.

Even if you have no answer for me then just think about it. Why do you believe it? Is it because someone gave a reason that sounds good? Or just because the church if Rome says that it is a true doctrine over 400 years after  the church was born and no evidence of it prior. Lets think now. Seriously



I don’t know which particular doctrine you are referring to but since you mention the Council of Ephesus (431) let’s take the dogma defined there that Mary was the mother of God (theotokos = God bearer). This was not defined to honour Mary, although it does, but to refute the Nestorian heresy. This claimed that that Mary did not carry God but only carried Christ’s human nature in her womb. But a woman carries a person in her womb, not just a human nature. Mary carried, and gave birth to, the person of Jesus Christ, and that person was God, the second person of the Trinity.

Nestorians claimed that Mary did not give birth to a unified person but tried to separate Jesus’ human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate persons, one human and one divine in a loose affiliation.

The Council of Ephesus was defining the unity of Christ as one person, both truly man and truly God.

Here are some quotes from early fathers:

"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Iranaeus - Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

"[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]" (Hippolytus - Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

"While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled" (Methodius - Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

"We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God" (Peter of Jerusalem - Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).


« Last Edit: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 07:38:46 by winsome »

Offline DAN1

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #13 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 10:55:40 »
So why waste your time praying direct to a dead saint who does not have God's full supernatural power to answer your prayer - and who probably won’t even hear or pick up your prayer anyway since the chances of that dead saint being tuned into your specific prayer at a specific time are probably a million to one.

When Jesus was walking in the New Testament – He specifically told us that we are to pray direct to God the Father if we have any specific needs that must be met. There is not one verse that I am aware of where He told us that we could also pray direct to dead saints. If God the Father wanted this possibility as an option, then I believe Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament - but He did not!


We ask the Saints to pray for us. On your reckoning why do we ask anyone to pray for us? Yet Paul asked others to pray for him. Are you suggesting Paul was wrong?

"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak."
(Eph 6:19-20)

"At the same time pray for us as well....."
(Col 4:3)

"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)

"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)

“Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honourably in all things.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 19:17:06 by larry2 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #14 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 11:13:56 »

"Yet Paul asked others to pray for him. Are you suggesting Paul was wrong?"

 Do you understand fully what Paul was saying?

Paul is saying the living can pray for the living!

where is scripture that the living can pray to the dead?

To the moderators. If a member complains that this post offends?  please delete.


Do Catholics pray to dead Popes? or dead members of their family?

If this post offends please delete.



We believe Mary and the Saints are alive in heaven. We are therefore asking the living to pray for us, just as Paul did.

larry2

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #15 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 11:15:15 »
So why waste your time praying direct to a dead saint who does not have God's full supernatural power to answer your prayer - and who probably won’t even hear or pick up your prayer anyway since the chances of that dead saint being tuned into your specific prayer at a specific time are probably a million to one.

When Jesus was walking in the New Testament – He specifically told us that we are to pray direct to God the Father if we have any specific needs that must be met. There is not one verse that I am aware of where He told us that we could also pray direct to dead saints. If God the Father wanted this possibility as an option, then I believe Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament - but He did not!


We ask the Saints to pray for us. On your reckoning why do we ask anyone to pray for us? Yet Paul asked others to pray for him. Are you suggesting Paul was wrong?

"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak."
(Eph 6:19-20)

"At the same time pray for us as well....."
(Col 4:3)

"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)

"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)

“Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honourably in all things.

Offline JustChristian

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #16 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 12:25:52 »
So why waste your time praying direct to a dead saint who does not have God's full supernatural power to answer your prayer - and who probably won’t even hear or pick up your prayer anyway since the chances of that dead saint being tuned into your specific prayer at a specific time are probably a million to one.

Hi!

Catholics view asking someone who is in heaven to pray for them just as they view asking you to pray for them.  It wouldn't be a waste of time asking you.  They don't believe it's a waste of time asking them.  They don't believe that those in heaven ANSWER the prayer, just pray, like you do.

Your assumption seems to be that time and space in heaven (which is outside time and space) necessarily works the same as it does here on earth.  If that were the case then it would be necessary for someone in heaven to be "tuned into your specific prayer at a specific time".  Since heaven is outside time and space Catholics have no problem believing that God can always make people in heaven aware of prayer requests addressed to them.  There is no teaching on exactly how this takes place, just that it's possible.

In Christ,
Nancy :)


Offline desertknight

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #17 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 14:11:13 »
Exactly, JustChristian.  Unfortunately some people confuse the Bible instructing us on the finality of the body and our need to win salvation while alive with an idea that the soul dies as well.  I'm always troubled to hear people use such passages to infer that the "dead" can't possibly hear us because there is no eternity of the soul.   

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #18 on: Tue Mar 23, 2010 - 01:10:21 »
I just have to ask a question. No one is saying that Mary is not to have a place of honor. Truly she is blessed among women.. I would just like to ask and i know this has been brought up before. Why is there no more mention of Mary in the scriptures after the gospels by the apostles? Also is there any letters from the early church fathers mentioning a Marion doctrine before 500 AD. or before Constantine? If so please post it

Can some one tell me when did the Marian doctrine begin? The closest I get to it is maybe the Council of Ephesus 421 AD, but i couldn't find anything that was very specific. The question is when where and why? Who decided  that there was a Marian doctrine. I believe these questions are important in establishing why you even believe this doctrine. It doesn't  have a stamp of the apostles on it. it does not have a stamp the any of the early church fathers on it. So how did we get this doctrine?  How did it get an official stamp of the church of Rome four hundred years after the church was born?. Did someone  just decide it was a doctrine out of the blue. There had to be a reason for this doctrine that served some purpose. What was that purpose? I mean other than just honoring Mary.

Even if you have no answer for me then just think about it. Why do you believe it? Is it because someone gave a reason that sounds good? Or just because the church if Rome says that it is a true doctrine over 400 years after  the church was born and no evidence of it prior. Lets think now. Seriously



I don’t know which particular doctrine you are referring to but since you mention the Council of Ephesus (431) let’s take the dogma defined there that Mary was the mother of God (theotokos = God bearer). This was not defined to honour Mary, although it does, but to refute the Nestorian heresy. This claimed that that Mary did not carry God but only carried Christ’s human nature in her womb. But a woman carries a person in her womb, not just a human nature. Mary carried, and gave birth to, the person of Jesus Christ, and that person was God, the second person of the Trinity.

Nestorians claimed that Mary did not give birth to a unified person but tried to separate Jesus’ human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate persons, one human and one divine in a loose affiliation.

The Council of Ephesus was defining the unity of Christ as one person, both truly man and truly God.

Here are some quotes from early fathers:

"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Iranaeus - Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

"[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]" (Hippolytus - Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

"While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled" (Methodius - Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

"We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God" (Peter of Jerusalem - Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).





Perhaps I am wrong to call it the marian doctrine. I was just refering to praying to Mary. I know there are those here who are saying they don't pray to Mary but is obvious Catholics do pray to her. i was refering to when this practice began.Was it decide at some council? Is it called the Marian doctrine? The points I made were were stated in my reply with questions.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #19 on: Tue Mar 23, 2010 - 05:04:22 »
Perhaps I am wrong to call it the marian doctrine. I was just refering to praying to Mary. I know there are those here who are saying they don't pray to Mary but is obvious Catholics do pray to her. i was refering to when this practice began.Was it decide at some council? Is it called the Marian doctrine? The points I made were were stated in my reply with questions.

Praying to Mary, or other Saints in heaven, is not a doctrine but a practice.

Catholics believe the Church exists in three states, those on earth, those in heaven and those in purgatory. All are part of the one body of Christ (Rom 12:4-5) and with Christ as the head are linked together. We are not separated by death (Rom 8:35-39)
This is expressed in the phrase in the Apostles Creed – the communion of saints.

Whilst all who are part of the body of Christ are saints, the Church has discerned that some are particularly worthy as examples or role models for us. We call these Canonised Saints or just Saints with a capitalised ‘S’.

We believe that Mary and Saints in heaven are available to us to intercede on our behalf and so we pray to them (ask them) for their help, just as we ask others here on earth to interceded for us. (Rom 15:30). We recognise that their prayers, as holy and righteous ones, are powerful and effective. (Jas 5:16)   

They are part of the cloud of witnesses who surround us and support us as we run the race (Heb 12:1).

Note that you need to understand what we mean by "praying to" here is in the sense of "earnestly ask" or "beseech", which is one the the older meanings of pray.

Does that help?

Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #20 on: Tue Mar 23, 2010 - 09:07:29 »
Perhaps I am wrong to call it the marian doctrine. I was just refering to praying to Mary. I know there are those here who are saying they don't pray to Mary but is obvious Catholics do pray to her. i was refering to when this practice began.Was it decide at some council? Is it called the Marian doctrine? The points I made were were stated in my reply with questions.

Praying to Mary, or other Saints in heaven, is not a doctrine but a practice.

Catholics believe the Church exists in three states, those on earth, those in heaven and those in purgatory. All are part of the one body of Christ (Rom 12:4-5) and with Christ as the head are linked together. We are not separated by death (Rom 8:35-39)
This is expressed in the phrase in the Apostles Creed – the communion of saints.

Whilst all who are part of the body of Christ are saints, the Church has discerned that some are particularly worthy as examples or role models for us. We call these Canonised Saints or just Saints with a capitalised ‘S’.

We believe that Mary and Saints in heaven are available to us to intercede on our behalf and so we pray to them (ask them) for their help, just as we ask others here on earth to interceded for us. (Rom 15:30). We recognise that their prayers, as holy and righteous ones, are powerful and effective. (Jas 5:16)   

They are part of the cloud of witnesses who surround us and support us as we run the race (Heb 12:1).

Note that you need to understand what we mean by "praying to" here is in the sense of "earnestly ask" or "beseech", which is one the the older meanings of pray.

Does that help?

The etymology of the phrase, "pray tell" is, er, telling.  Keep your eyes peeled for the bold italicizes :

English - Etymology

From pray (“‘ask (politely)’

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #21 on: Tue Mar 23, 2010 - 09:41:24 »
Perhaps I am wrong to call it the marian doctrine. I was just refering to praying to Mary. I know there are those here who are saying they don't pray to Mary but is obvious Catholics do pray to her. i was refering to when this practice began.Was it decide at some council? Is it called the Marian doctrine? The points I made were were stated in my reply with questions.

Praying to Mary, or other Saints in heaven, is not a doctrine but a practice.

Catholics believe the Church exists in three states, those on earth, those in heaven and those in purgatory. All are part of the one body of Christ (Rom 12:4-5) and with Christ as the head are linked together. We are not separated by death (Rom 8:35-39)
This is expressed in the phrase in the Apostles Creed – the communion of saints.

Whilst all who are part of the body of Christ are saints, the Church has discerned that some are particularly worthy as examples or role models for us. We call these Canonised Saints or just Saints with a capitalised ‘S’.

We believe that Mary and Saints in heaven are available to us to intercede on our behalf and so we pray to them (ask them) for their help, just as we ask others here on earth to interceded for us. (Rom 15:30). We recognise that their prayers, as holy and righteous ones, are powerful and effective. (Jas 5:16)   

They are part of the cloud of witnesses who surround us and support us as we run the race (Heb 12:1).

Note that you need to understand what we mean by "praying to" here is in the sense of "earnestly ask" or "beseech", which is one the the older meanings of pray.

Does that help?


No that does not help. i think the point Im trying to get at is being lost in confusion because I said Marian doctrine. I am gong to repost what I stated earlier and leave out the Marian doctrine and just refer to it as the practice of praying to Mary.

What I posted earlier changed

I just have to ask a question. No one is saying that Mary is not to have a place of honor. Truly she is blessed among women.. I would just like to ask and i know this has been brought up before. Why is there no more mention of Mary in the scriptures after the gospels by the apostles? Also is there any letters from the early church fathers mentioning Praying to Mary before 500 AD. or before Constantine? If so please post it

Can some one tell me when did the praying to Mary begin  begin? Was it decided at some council like  the Council of Ephesus 421 AD. I couldn't find anything that was very specific. The question is when where and why? Who decided  that there was about praying to Mary . I believe these questions are important in establishing why you even believe this. It doesn't  have a stamp of the apostles on it. it does not have a stamp the any of the early church fathers on it. So how did we get this Praying to Mary Practice ?  How did it get an official stamp of the church of Rome four hundred years after the church was born?. Did someone  just decide it was an excepted practice  out of the blue. There had to be a reason for this practice  that served some purpose. What was that purpose? I mean other than just honoring Mary.

Even if you have no answer for me then just think about it. Why do you believe it? Is it because someone gave a reason that sounds good? Or just because the church of Rome says that it is a true practice  over 400 years after  the church was born and no evidence of it prior. Lets think now. Seriously



Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #22 on: Tue Mar 23, 2010 - 10:34:17 »
Perhaps I am wrong to call it the marian doctrine. I was just refering to praying to Mary. I know there are those here who are saying they don't pray to Mary but is obvious Catholics do pray to her. i was refering to when this practice began.Was it decide at some council? Is it called the Marian doctrine? The points I made were were stated in my reply with questions.

Praying to Mary, or other Saints in heaven, is not a doctrine but a practice.

Catholics believe the Church exists in three states, those on earth, those in heaven and those in purgatory. All are part of the one body of Christ (Rom 12:4-5) and with Christ as the head are linked together. We are not separated by death (Rom 8:35-39)
This is expressed in the phrase in the Apostles Creed – the communion of saints.

Whilst all who are part of the body of Christ are saints, the Church has discerned that some are particularly worthy as examples or role models for us. We call these Canonised Saints or just Saints with a capitalised ‘S’.

We believe that Mary and Saints in heaven are available to us to intercede on our behalf and so we pray to them (ask them) for their help, just as we ask others here on earth to interceded for us. (Rom 15:30). We recognise that their prayers, as holy and righteous ones, are powerful and effective. (Jas 5:16)   

They are part of the cloud of witnesses who surround us and support us as we run the race (Heb 12:1).

Note that you need to understand what we mean by "praying to" here is in the sense of "earnestly ask" or "beseech", which is one the the older meanings of pray.

Does that help?


No that does not help. i think the point Im trying to get at is being lost in confusion because I said Marian doctrine. I am gong to repost what I stated earlier and leave out the Marian doctrine and just refer to it as the practice of praying to Mary.

What I posted earlier changed

I just have to ask a question. No one is saying that Mary is not to have a place of honor. Truly she is blessed among women.. I would just like to ask and i know this has been brought up before. Why is there no more mention of Mary in the scriptures after the gospels by the apostles? Also is there any letters from the early church fathers mentioning Praying to Mary before 500 AD. or before Constantine? If so please post it

Can some one tell me when did the praying to Mary begin  begin? Was it decided at some council like  the Council of Ephesus 421 AD. I couldn't find anything that was very specific. The question is when where and why? Who decided  that there was about praying to Mary . I believe these questions are important in establishing why you even believe this. It doesn't  have a stamp of the apostles on it. it does not have a stamp the any of the early church fathers on it. So how did we get this Praying to Mary Practice ?  How did it get an official stamp of the church of Rome four hundred years after the church was born?. Did someone  just decide it was an excepted practice  out of the blue. There had to be a reason for this practice  that served some purpose. What was that purpose? I mean other than just honoring Mary.

Even if you have no answer for me then just think about it. Why do you believe it? Is it because someone gave a reason that sounds good? Or just because the church of Rome says that it is a true practice  over 400 years after  the church was born and no evidence of it prior. Lets think now. Seriously


Basically you are not listening mclees.

Praying to those in heaven (asking them for their prayers) isn't a doctrine. It is based on the doctrine of the communion of saints, something protestants fail to understand as they have a distorted understanding of ecclesia. Asking a friend in heaven to pray for me is no different in principle to asking a (Christian) friend on earth to pray for me. They are both part of the body of Christ.

Asking someone else to pray for us is scriptural as I have already shown.

The book of revelation describes the those in heaven presenting our prayers to God
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Offline JustChristian

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #23 on: Tue Mar 23, 2010 - 12:53:14 »
Perhaps I am wrong to call it the marian doctrine. I was just refering to praying to Mary. I know there are those here who are saying they don't pray to Mary but is obvious Catholics do pray to her. i was refering to when this practice began.Was it decide at some council? Is it called the Marian doctrine? The points I made were were stated in my reply with questions.

Praying to Mary, or other Saints in heaven, is not a doctrine but a practice.

Catholics believe the Church exists in three states, those on earth, those in heaven and those in purgatory. All are part of the one body of Christ (Rom 12:4-5) and with Christ as the head are linked together. We are not separated by death (Rom 8:35-39)
This is expressed in the phrase in the Apostles Creed – the communion of saints.

Whilst all who are part of the body of Christ are saints, the Church has discerned that some are particularly worthy as examples or role models for us. We call these Canonised Saints or just Saints with a capitalised ‘S’.

We believe that Mary and Saints in heaven are available to us to intercede on our behalf and so we pray to them (ask them) for their help, just as we ask others here on earth to interceded for us. (Rom 15:30). We recognise that their prayers, as holy and righteous ones, are powerful and effective. (Jas 5:16)   

They are part of the cloud of witnesses who surround us and support us as we run the race (Heb 12:1).

Note that you need to understand what we mean by "praying to" here is in the sense of "earnestly ask" or "beseech", which is one the the older meanings of pray.

Does that help?


No that does not help. i think the point Im trying to get at is being lost in confusion because I said Marian doctrine. I am gong to repost what I stated earlier and leave out the Marian doctrine and just refer to it as the practice of praying to Mary.

What I posted earlier changed

I just have to ask a question. No one is saying that Mary is not to have a place of honor. Truly she is blessed among women.. I would just like to ask and i know this has been brought up before. Why is there no more mention of Mary in the scriptures after the gospels by the apostles? Also is there any letters from the early church fathers mentioning Praying to Mary before 500 AD. or before Constantine? If so please post it

Can some one tell me when did the praying to Mary begin  begin? Was it decided at some council like  the Council of Ephesus 421 AD. I couldn't find anything that was very specific. The question is when where and why? Who decided  that there was about praying to Mary . I believe these questions are important in establishing why you even believe this. It doesn't  have a stamp of the apostles on it. it does not have a stamp the any of the early church fathers on it. So how did we get this Praying to Mary Practice ?  How did it get an official stamp of the church of Rome four hundred years after the church was born?. Did someone  just decide it was an excepted practice  out of the blue. There had to be a reason for this practice  that served some purpose. What was that purpose? I mean other than just honoring Mary.

Even if you have no answer for me then just think about it. Why do you believe it? Is it because someone gave a reason that sounds good? Or just because the church of Rome says that it is a true practice  over 400 years after  the church was born and no evidence of it prior. Lets think now. Seriously


Basically you are not listening mclees.

Praying to those in heaven (asking them for their prayers) isn't a doctrine. It is based on the doctrine of the communion of saints, something protestants fail to understand as they have a distorted understanding of ecclesia. Asking a friend in heaven to pray for me is no different in principle to asking a (Christian) friend on earth to pray for me. They are both part of the body of Christ.

Asking someone else to pray for us is scriptural as I have already shown.

The book of revelation describes the those in heaven presenting our prayers to God
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #24 on: Tue Mar 23, 2010 - 22:18:45 »
Perhaps I am wrong to call it the marian doctrine. I was just refering to praying to Mary. I know there are those here who are saying they don't pray to Mary but is obvious Catholics do pray to her. i was refering to when this practice began.Was it decide at some council? Is it called the Marian doctrine? The points I made were were stated in my reply with questions.

Praying to Mary, or other Saints in heaven, is not a doctrine but a practice.

Catholics believe the Church exists in three states, those on earth, those in heaven and those in purgatory. All are part of the one body of Christ (Rom 12:4-5) and with Christ as the head are linked together. We are not separated by death (Rom 8:35-39)
This is expressed in the phrase in the Apostles Creed – the communion of saints.

Whilst all who are part of the body of Christ are saints, the Church has discerned that some are particularly worthy as examples or role models for us. We call these Canonised Saints or just Saints with a capitalised ‘S’.

We believe that Mary and Saints in heaven are available to us to intercede on our behalf and so we pray to them (ask them) for their help, just as we ask others here on earth to interceded for us. (Rom 15:30). We recognise that their prayers, as holy and righteous ones, are powerful and effective. (Jas 5:16)   

They are part of the cloud of witnesses who surround us and support us as we run the race (Heb 12:1).

Note that you need to understand what we mean by "praying to" here is in the sense of "earnestly ask" or "beseech", which is one the the older meanings of pray.

Does that help?


No that does not help. i think the point Im trying to get at is being lost in confusion because I said Marian doctrine. I am gong to repost what I stated earlier and leave out the Marian doctrine and just refer to it as the practice of praying to Mary.

What I posted earlier changed

I just have to ask a question. No one is saying that Mary is not to have a place of honor. Truly she is blessed among women.. I would just like to ask and i know this has been brought up before. Why is there no more mention of Mary in the scriptures after the gospels by the apostles? Also is there any letters from the early church fathers mentioning Praying to Mary before 500 AD. or before Constantine? If so please post it

Can some one tell me when did the praying to Mary begin  begin? Was it decided at some council like  the Council of Ephesus 421 AD. I couldn't find anything that was very specific. The question is when where and why? Who decided  that there was about praying to Mary . I believe these questions are important in establishing why you even believe this. It doesn't  have a stamp of the apostles on it. it does not have a stamp the any of the early church fathers on it. So how did we get this Praying to Mary Practice ?  How did it get an official stamp of the church of Rome four hundred years after the church was born?. Did someone  just decide it was an excepted practice  out of the blue. There had to be a reason for this practice  that served some purpose. What was that purpose? I mean other than just honoring Mary.

Even if you have no answer for me then just think about it. Why do you believe it? Is it because someone gave a reason that sounds good? Or just because the church of Rome says that it is a true practice  over 400 years after  the church was born and no evidence of it prior. Lets think now. Seriously


Basically you are not listening mclees.

Praying to those in heaven (asking them for their prayers) isn't a doctrine. It is based on the doctrine of the communion of saints, something protestants fail to understand as they have a distorted understanding of ecclesia. Asking a friend in heaven to pray for me is no different in principle to asking a (Christian) friend on earth to pray for me. They are both part of the body of Christ.

Asking someone else to pray for us is scriptural as I have already shown.

The book of revelation describes the those in heaven presenting our prayers to God
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Offline desertknight

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #25 on: Tue Mar 23, 2010 - 23:42:08 »
Your contention is incorrect on several counts, McLees.  Of course the Apostles don't mention praying to Mary as the Blessed Mother was a contemporary and very much alive at the time of the events of the NT.  I have no doubt they prayed with her and asked for her prayers, and each others, as she is mentioned as being with them, "after the Gospels", (which you asked if she was), in Acts.  In fact, Mary is the only one to be mentioned by name – other than the twelve Apostles and the candidates – of about 120 people gathered, after the Ascension, in the Upper Room on the occasion of the election of Matthias to the vacancy of Judas.   The Early Church Fathers wrote extensively of her, although most all of their writings were primarily on doctrine and not written prayers, they all gave her the rightful place she still holds in the hearts of most Christians...

http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_immaculate_conception.htm

That is just some of the writings of the ECF's concerning the Immaculate Conception.  One of the earliest surviving Marian prayers, that is still in use, is called the Ὑπὸ τὴν σὴν εὐσπλαγχνίαν, (Beneath your Compassion), which dates from the AD 200's, several generations before the reign of Constantine.      

        Beneath your compassion,
        We take refuge, O Mother of God:
        do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
        but rescue us from dangers,
        only pure, only blessed one.

       Ὑπὸ τὴν σὴν εὐσπλαγχνίαν,
        καταφεύγομεν, Θεοτόκε.
        Τὰς ἡμῶν ἱκεσίας,
        μὴ παρίδῃς ἐν περιστάσει,
        ἀλλ᾽ ἐκ κινδύνων λύτρωσαι ἡμᾶς,
        μόνη Ἁγνή, μόνη εὐλογημένη.

« Last Edit: Wed Mar 24, 2010 - 00:48:19 by desertknight »

larry2

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #26 on: Tue Mar 23, 2010 - 23:53:46 »

       
        but rescue us from dangers,
        only pure, only blessed one.


     

Dear desertknight, I hear repeatedly that Catholics do not pray to Mary, but that they only seek her prayers for them. Do you really consider the above petition to Mary asking for her prayers only and how so please? Thanks.

Offline desertknight

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #27 on: Wed Mar 24, 2010 - 00:04:19 »

      
       but rescue us from dangers,
        only pure, only blessed one.


      

Dear desertknight, I hear repeatedly that Catholics do not pray to Mary, but that they only seek her prayers for them. Do you really consider the above petition to Mary asking for her prayers only and how so please? Thanks.

Because it very clearly says that in the line just above the ones you quoted...

"do not despise our petitions in time of trouble"

"Petitions", that is what prayers to the saints are;  petitions for them to 'pray for us', thereby helping to "rescue us from dangers".  I think Ryan went over the changing definition of the word "prayer" or to "pray", earlier.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #28 on: Wed Mar 24, 2010 - 06:38:41 »
In my vernacular, a petition IS a prayer to God. I have prayers of thanksgiving plus prayer of petitions for HIM to intervene in situations.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #29 on: Wed Mar 24, 2010 - 08:06:26 »


From the Online Entymology Dictionary
c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari.

So pray actually means ask earnestly or beg. If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as “prithee sir

Offline mclees8

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #30 on: Wed Mar 24, 2010 - 09:35:48 »

      
       but rescue us from dangers,
        only pure, only blessed one.


      

Dear desertknight, I hear repeatedly that Catholics do not pray to Mary, but that they only seek her prayers for them. Do you really consider the above petition to Mary asking for her prayers only and how so please? Thanks.

Because it very clearly says that in the line just above the ones you quoted...

"do not despise our petitions in time of trouble"

"Petitions", that is what prayers to the saints are;  petitions for them to 'pray for us', thereby helping to "rescue us from dangers".  I think Ryan went over the changing definition of the word "prayer" or to "pray",


Now according to this I can so choose what apostle or recognized saint I want to pray to and I do not haft to petition directly to God or Jesus. I can go the long way around and have A saint petition for me. Something is not right here.  ::pondering:: ???

Offline desertknight

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #31 on: Wed Mar 24, 2010 - 09:52:09 »

      
       but rescue us from dangers,
        only pure, only blessed one.


      

Dear desertknight, I hear repeatedly that Catholics do not pray to Mary, but that they only seek her prayers for them. Do you really consider the above petition to Mary asking for her prayers only and how so please? Thanks.

Because it very clearly says that in the line just above the ones you quoted...

"do not despise our petitions in time of trouble"

"Petitions", that is what prayers to the saints are;  petitions for them to 'pray for us', thereby helping to "rescue us from dangers".  I think Ryan went over the changing definition of the word "prayer" or to "pray",


Now according to this I can so choose what apostle or recognized saint I want to pray to and I do not haft to petition directly to God or Jesus. I can go the long way around and have A saint petition for me. Something is not right here.  ::pondering:: ???

Really?  You have never "gone the long way around"  and asked a family member or loved one to pray for you?  You've never offered to pray for anyone else?  Never said, "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.  I will pray for you", or "I'll remember you in my prayers"?  That's odd.  Even among my non-Catholic friends, it is a common practice.  

You are doing exactly the same with prayers to the Saints.  It is not as any replacement for prayers to God, which are still the vast majority of the prayers I say, nor is it adding a step, an intermediary, between you and God, but simply as a petition to be remembered in someone else's prayers.  I have a young nephew in the rock music business who is leading a life that is fraught with danger.  I always pray that God may "rescue him from danger", that our Blessed Mother, may look as a mother to him and petition her Son to do just that and help preserve him from the snares of the devil.  Surly there is something quite right in that.

Offline JustChristian

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #32 on: Wed Mar 24, 2010 - 10:31:51 »
In my vernacular, a petition IS a prayer to God. I have prayers of thanksgiving plus prayer of petitions for HIM to intervene in situations.
That's not really fair though.  It's important that you judge Catholic practice according to how the Catholic Church uses a word, not only by how you use it.  Judging Catholic practice by YOUR vernacular alone is likely to cause a misinterpretation of Catholic practice.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #33 on: Wed Mar 24, 2010 - 10:45:19 »
"If Apostles and martyrs, whilst still in the flesh and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they pray for others after they have won their crowns, their victories, their triumphs? Moses, one man, obtains God’s pardon for six hundred thousand armed men, and Stephen prays for his persecutors. When they are with Christ, will they be less powerful? Paul says that two hundred and seventy-six souls were granted to his prayers, whilst they were in a ship with him. Shall he close his lips after death, and not mutter a syllable for those who throughout the world have believed in his gospel?" (Jerome 4th century)

Sounds reasonable to me.

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Re: Catholics believe that to worship Mary would be a grave sin
« Reply #34 on: Wed Mar 24, 2010 - 11:03:22 »
In my vernacular, a petition IS a prayer to God. I have prayers of thanksgiving plus prayer of petitions for HIM to intervene in situations.

That's not really fair though.  It's important that you judge Catholic practice according to how the Catholic Church uses a word, not only by how you use it.  Judging Catholic practice by YOUR vernacular alone is likely to cause a misinterpretation of Catholic practice.

I'm Orthodox and the word "prayer" is used in different ways too.  I mean, it's not like our own private interpretation.  Communion of the Saints and the veneration of them goes back to the beginning.  I mean, look at the account of St. Ignatius martyrdom.  Look at some of the biblical accounts that even touch on "intercession of the Saints".  Of course, the protestants adopted the anti-Christian canon that the Jews adopted post-Christiandom and won't accept those scriptures as "inspired" but regardless, the Septuagint was what the Apostles make direct quotes from in the very books they do accept. 

 ::pickinguprock::


God bless

 

     
anything