Catholic

[desertknight]

 
 

As I recall, the living in sin part was lifted recently, and now the marrage is simply  classified as "not recongnized" by the Catholic Chruch.  If my wife was to agree to getting  married again in the Catholic Church we would have to stop having sex for a peroid of time before receiving the Sacrament of Marriage. I assume that the new Canon Law says that we are not living in sin as long as we stay on the Protestant side.  However, I can't be in communion with the Catholic Church and sleep with a Protestant.  Believe this or not, the Church has Canon Lawyers (for a fee) and the everyone knows that the Bishop's 401K is supported by Radical Sanation (payola). We are talking about millions upon millions of Catholics who slipped up and married a Protestant.  Then there are countless divorsed Catholics who slipped up and got remarried with out the approval of the Church. The Bishop's 401K keeps building up, so why change it?

Banished, I have no idea what your "real" story is or where you have gotten this, but it is totally bogus.  I have been Catholic for decades and have known dozens of Catholic/Protestant, Catholic/Other faith, marriages and they are fairly simple to obtain permission for and totally accepted within the Church.  It's as common an occurrence as there is.  Any prohibition against such marriages was done completely away with long before I was born and do not apply to anyone living.  If you or your wife were legitimately married before than that can be a factor in your marriage now not being recognized, but to make claims that, "I can't be in communion with the Catholic Church and sleep with a Protestant." is utterly false.  I have no idea where you could come up with this bazaar information.  You can't be divorced from a legitimate marriage and re-marry within the Church, that is true.  You can obtain an annulment if that marriage was of questionable validity, and yes, it involves some legal research and that may require a fee.  It would in any civil procedure as well and they are not simply acting for the Church, but that it goes into the Bishops 401K is an outright lie.  Clergy retirement funds are very small and are handled in exactly the same fashion as any private sector fund is.  Each diocese, as required by canon law, must make public all salaries, funds, expenditures, etc, from the Bishop on down to the janitor, at least once a year.  They are readily available.  If you are Catholic than you remember that one week per year in every parish this is done and copies are handed out or made available to every parishioner detailing every penny spent.  It has been so in every parish that I have ever belonged to.  This is some good information on interfaith marriage within the Catholic Church...

http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q102.htm

Jimmy Akin is as good a source as you will find on this.
  

[winsome]

while living in sin with a Protestant marrage?

Being married to a Protestant is considered to be living in sin?

No, a Catholic being married outside the Catholic Church without an appropriate dispensation is considered to be not validly married whether the partner is a Catholic, Protestant, aetheist etc.

[larry2]

              Being married to a Protestant is considered to be living in sin?

As I recall, the living in sin part was lifted recently, and now the marrage is simply  classified as "not recongnized" by the Catholic Chruch.  If my wife was to agree to getting  married again in the Catholic Church we would have to stop having sex for a period of time before receiving the Sacrament of Marriage. I assume that the new Canon Law says that we are not living in sin as long as we stay on the Protestant side.  However, I can't be in communion with the Catholic Church and sleep with a Protestant.  Believe this or not, the Church has Canon Lawyers (for a fee) and the everyone knows that the Bishop's 401K is supported by Radical Sanction (payola). We are talking about millions upon millions of Catholics who slipped up and married a Protestant.  Then there are countless divorced Catholics who slipped up and got remarried with out the approval of the Church. The Bishop's 401K keeps building up, so why change it?

                                       Oh Brother! God help us !!

                                                                 
Being ex Catholic, this said it all. I haven't laughed so hard since being on these forums. There are such wonderful brethren in such bondage not only in the Catholic Church, but in many Protestant churches as well. Let's look forward to Jesus' soon appearing.

[winsome]

              Being married to a Protestant is considered to be living in sin?

As I recall, the living in sin part was lifted recently, and now the marrage is simply  classified as "not recongnized" by the Catholic Chruch.  If my wife was to agree to getting  married again in the Catholic Church we would have to stop having sex for a period of time before receiving the Sacrament of Marriage. I assume that the new Canon Law says that we are not living in sin as long as we stay on the Protestant side.  However, I can't be in communion with the Catholic Church and sleep with a Protestant.  Believe this or not, the Church has Canon Lawyers (for a fee) and the everyone knows that the Bishop's 401K is supported by Radical Sanction (payola). We are talking about millions upon millions of Catholics who slipped up and married a Protestant.  Then there are countless divorced Catholics who slipped up and got remarried with out the approval of the Church. The Bishop's 401K keeps building up, so why change it?

                                       Oh Brother! God help us !!

                                                                 
Being ex Catholic, this said it all. I haven't laughed so hard since being on these forums. There are such wonderful brethren in such bondage not only in the Catholic Church, but in many Protestant churches as well. Let's look forward to Jesus' soon appearing.

Why do you think gross misreprentation of Catholicism is funny?

[larry2]

Why do you think gross misreprentation of Catholicism is funny?

I do not know all of what "Saint banished" has said is a misreprentation, but it reminds me of many things I believed, and much of the bondage I was in as a Catholic. In my case, my wife could not be married within the altar unless I was a Catholic, and the list goes on.

Though I don't consider Catholics false brethren as in Galatians 2:4, but there are many that would deny our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage.

If you believe "Saint banished" has misrepresented a religious organization, why don't you bring supporting evidence even if it is cannon law.

[winsome]

Why do you think gross misreprentation of Catholicism is funny?

I do not know all of what "Saint banished" has said is a misreprentation, but it reminds me of many things I believed, and much of the bondage I was in as a Catholic. In my case, my wife could not be married within the altar unless I was a Catholic, and the list goes on.

Though I don't consider Catholics false brethren as in Galatians 2:4, but there are many that would deny our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage.

If you believe "Saint banished" has misrepresented a religious organization, why don't you bring supporting evidence even if it is cannon law.

DesertKnight has done that in post #30

[larry2]

Why do you think gross misrepresentation of Catholicism is funny?

I do not know all of what "Saint banished" has said is a misrepresentation, but it reminds me of many things I believed, and much of the bondage I was in as a Catholic. In my case, my wife could not be married within the altar unless I was a Catholic, and the list goes on.

Though I don't consider Catholics false brethren as in Galatians 2:4, but there are many that would deny our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage.

If you believe "Saint banished" has misrepresented a religious organization, why don't you bring supporting evidence even if it is cannon law.

DesertKnight has done that in post #30

To me it seems desertknight substantiated much of what "Saint banished" said. The things he brought forth were not anything but heresay without backing it up by cannon law. It seems desertknight seemly attempted to justify their taking money. Another thing I might ask; why did it need changed?

I have just noticed I was on the Catholic Forum and do not mean any disrespect of your faith in God. I'm not sure if I came here on a notice or what, but I will back out of the thread at this time.

[banished]

 

As I recall, the living in sin part was lifted recently, and now the marrage is simply  classified as "not recongnized" by the Catholic Chruch.  If my wife was to agree to getting  married again in the Catholic Church we would have to stop having sex for a peroid of time before receiving the Sacrament of Marriage. I assume that the new Canon Law says that we are not living in sin as long as we stay on the Protestant side.  However, I can't be in communion with the Catholic Church and sleep with a Protestant.  Believe this or not, the Church has Canon Lawyers (for a fee) and the everyone knows that the Bishop's 401K is supported by Radical Sanation (payola). We are talking about millions upon millions of Catholics who slipped up and married a Protestant.  Then there are countless divorsed Catholics who slipped up and got remarried with out the approval of the Church. The Bishop's 401K keeps building up, so why change it?

Banished, I have no idea what your "real" story is or where you have gotten this, but it is totally bogus.  I have been Catholic for decades and have known dozens of Catholic/Protestant, Catholic/Other faith, marriages and they are fairly simple to obtain permission for and totally accepted within the Church.  It's as common an occurrence as there is.  Any prohibition against such marriages was done completely away with long before I was born and do not apply to anyone living.  If you or your wife were legitimately married before than that can be a factor in your marriage now not being recognized, but to make claims that, "I can't be in communion with the Catholic Church and sleep with a Protestant." is utterly false.  I have no idea where you could come up with this bazaar information.  You can't be divorced from a legitimate marriage and re-marry within the Church, that is true.  You can obtain an annulment if that marriage was of questionable validity, and yes, it involves some legal research and that may require a fee.  It would in any civil procedure as well and they are not simply acting for the Church, but that it goes into the Bishops 401K is an outright lie.  Clergy retirement funds are very small and are handled in exactly the same fashion as any private sector fund is.  Each diocese, as required by canon law, must make public all salaries, funds, expenditures, etc, from the Bishop on down to the janitor, at least once a year.  They are readily available.  If you are Catholic than you remember that one week per year in every parish this is done and copies are handed out or made available to every parishioner detailing every penny spent.  It has been so in every parish that I have ever belonged to.  This is some good information on interfaith marriage within the Catholic Church...

http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q102.htm

Jimmy Akin is as good a source as you will find on this.
  

desertnight,

By you calling my story bogus you have pushed me over to the Protestant side with my argument.  You absolutely don't know what you are talking about, and are blindly defending something that is untrue.  I will add that I have been given the boot twice from the famous Catholic Answers Forum by, "Jean Anthony" for mentioning the bad treatment I am getting because of being married to a Protestant, and also given the boot from all 3 Yahoo Catholic Forums, and not allowed to join the Catholics on Line Forum.  Apparently, this is a sore spot with the Catholics and they would like to keep it swept under the rug. Remember, we are talking about million upon millions of legally married Catholics.

You were so anxious to defend the faith that you missed the fact the a Catholic must file for DISPENSATION papers from the Bishop before the marriage in order to have permission to marry a baptized non-Catholic.  There is a long list to terms and conditions that must be met after the marriage in the form of an oath.  Well, both my wife and I were Baptized and Confirmed Catholics in good standing when we decided to get married in a Born Again Protestant Church without DISPENSATION from the Bishop. That means that we are guilty on 2 counts, first for turning our backs on the Catholic Church by attending a Born Again Charismatic Church, and second for not getting DISPENSATION papers from the Bishop before getting married.

To add the frosting onto the cake, if I ever do go through the legal process with the Bishop and pay all fees, I have to get up in front of the whole Church and give a little speech about how wrong I was (22 years ago) when I turned my back on the Catholic Church, and how glad I am to be back in Communion with the Church.  Then of course, there is the fact that my wife is so mad that she will never go back to the Catholics, so I can't take the easier route and get married again in the Catholic Church.  I must get a Radical SANATION from the Bishop, and it would have to be a Bishop who was willing to risk causing a divorce and be willing to have me live in a Protestant marriage where my children are raised Protestant.  Not so easy! 

If memory serves me right it was during the mid 70's that the living in sin while married to a Protestant clause was lifted from Canon Law, and we are to have our children raised as Catholics.  We put my boy through a Protestant school and he is a Born Again Christian, as with both my wife and myself.

 

[desertknight]

To me it seems desertknight substantiated much of what "Saint banished" said. The things he brought forth were not anything but heresay without backing it up by cannon law. It seems desertknight seemly attempted to justify their taking money. Another thing I might ask; why did it need changed?

And you got this from my post?    Uhhh...no.  That is not what I said.  You cannot be excommunicated for having a Protestant wife.  You do not pay into the Bishop's 401k in order to obtain an annulment, assuming that is what banished is even refering to.  I have never heard of most of what he is referring to and know for certain that much of the doctrinal premises it is based on are totally false.  I posted a relevant link to back that up.  I would be happy to post others on request.  From what I am just guessing at from my reading of banished's confusing post and your misreading of it, I can say this.

1.  Catholic/Protestant or Catholic/ Other faith marriages are quite common and accepted by the Catholic Church.  One needs only write a short letter to the Bishop of your diocese in order to obtain it.  It is routine.

2.  If you have already been in a valid marriage to another person and have never received an annulment, then no, you cannot be married as a Catholic or have your marriage recognised within the Church as we follow the exact marriage formula as given to us in the NT and adhere to the truth that "what God has joined together, let no man set apart".  You, "for better or worse", become one.  If your previous marriage does have some basis for an annulment, then yes, you must actually pay a fee to process it.  So what?  It is similar to a civil procedure that may require and investigation of the parties claims, statements taken into evidence, application to the Ecclesiastical Tribunal, etc.  Lawyers do not come cheap, including canon ones.  When my knights order at my parish rents out our hall, we charge a few.  Just because something is associated with a "Church", doesn't mean that the bills don't come at the end of the month.  

3.   Follow the money?  If you want to know where each parish or diocese gets it's money and what they do with it...down to the penny, just ask.  The information, as I stated earlier, is required under Church law to be made available and is done so in every fiscal year during an "open the books" week in each parish.  It may differ from parish to parish, and each country's Bishops may implement the guidelines to meet local conditions, (For example, providing copies for each parishioner in an African village may not be practical.).  Catholic clergy receive very little pay, no matter what their rank, and have only a modest retirement.   If not under an actual "vow of poverty", they are still called to live very modest lives under some other similar vow and most earn only a small amount for personal goods and food which they share with other religious living with them.  Even if they live in a grand old parish or diocese house, they certainly don't own it.  That they must live there because they simply do not have the money for living elsewhere is a fact that will get you closer to the truth.  "Payolla' for a 401k?"  I can't wait to tell my parish priest that one.  He'll give me a good eye roll and head shake over that.

[banished]

desertknight,

I would like to remind you that both my wife and I are Baptized and Confirmed Catholics, and I would like to know under what authority do you pass judgement on other Confirmed Catholics?  As a lay person you are to keep buttoned-up!

[desertknight]

Well, both my wife and I were Baptized and Confirmed Catholics in good standing when we decided to get married in a Born Again Protestant Church without DISPENSATION from the Bishop. That means that we are guilty on 2 counts, first for turning our backs on the Catholic Church by attending a Born Again Charismatic Church, and second for not getting DISPENSATION papers from the Bishop before getting married.

I am not passing judgement on you, but I am not going to let you post something as if it were Catholic doctrine when it clearly isn't.  winsome already corrected your assertion that being married to a Protestant without a dispensation was a "sin".  But I am utterly confused by your situation.  A "dispensation" is for an interfaith marriage, which you said that yours was, now you are saying that both you and your wife are baptised and confirmed Catholics.  Yes?  That you both started attending a "born again church" and now, if I understand you, you want to receive communion or somehow return to the Church?  Well, then make a good confession and do so.  That's it.  Whatever the status of your marriage, banished, you cannot be cut off from the sacraments unless you have been excommunicated for some grave disobedience, but what you described is not.  Marrying outside of the Church?  If that's all it takes...   ALL Catholics are sinners and if being one can cut you off from the Church and Christ's Body and Blood at Mass, then there would no longer be a Church.

I have to get up in front of the whole Church and give a little speech about how wrong I was (22 years ago) when I turned my back on the Catholic Church, and how glad I am to be back in Communion with the Church.

Oh my Gosh!  You can't be serious.  That is the most bazaar load of bull-puck I have ever heard in my life as a Catholic.  That beats anything I have ever heard from the anti-Catholics here.  Please, you are embarrassing yourself.  I guarantee if anyone here goes and asks any knowledgeable Catholic about this, they will laugh and wonder who in the heck told you something that odd.  Never heard of it in my life.  No Bishop or priest can force you to get up and talk about your personal sins or the state of your marriage in front of the congregation.  Horse-feathers.

Canon Law 983-1  "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason."

I must get a Radical SANATION from the Bishop, and it would have to be a Bishop who was willing to risk causing a divorce and be willing to have me live in a Protestant marriage where my children are raised Protestant.

Well, no, you can't if your wife does not wish it.  Do you know what it even is?  A 'radical sanation' is for when two Catholics were married outside of the Church and then wish to have that marriage 'convalidated' by her.  If your wife and children are practising Evangelical Protestants then it is not a punishment that you cannot have one, you simply don't qualify to receive one as your wife is no longer a practising Catholic and does not wish to be one.  You cannot have a 'Sanation' or have your marriage convalidated simply because you alone wish it.  It isn't the Church's fault, they simply can't force your wife to be a party to something that you have repeatedly stated that she does not believe in or wants to participate in.

[banished]

Well, both my wife and I were Baptized and Confirmed Catholics in good standing when we decided to get married in a Born Again Protestant Church without DISPENSATION from the Bishop. That means that we are guilty on 2 counts, first for turning our backs on the Catholic Church by attending a Born Again Charismatic Church, and second for not getting DISPENSATION papers from the Bishop before getting married.

I am not passing judgement on you, but I am not going to let you post something as if it were Catholic doctrine when it clearly isn't.  winsome already corrected your assertion that being married to a Protestant without a dispensation was a "sin".  But I am utterly confused by your situation.  A "dispensation" is for an interfaith marriage, which you said that yours was, now you are saying that both you and your wife are baptised and confirmed Catholics.  Yes?  That you both started attending a "born again church" and now, if I understand you, you want to receive communion or somehow return to the Church?  Well, then make a good confession and do so.  That's it.  Whatever the status of your marriage, banished, you cannot be cut off from the sacraments unless you have been excommunicated for some grave disobedience, but what you described is not.  Marrying outside of the Church?  If that's all it takes...   ALL Catholics are sinners and if being one can cut you off from the Church and Christ's Body and Blood at Mass, then there would no longer be a Church.

I have to get up in front of the whole Church and give a little speech about how wrong I was (22 years ago) when I turned my back on the Catholic Church, and how glad I am to be back in Communion with the Church.

Oh my Gosh!  You can't be serious.  That is the most bazaar load of bull-puck I have ever heard in my life as a Catholic.  That beats anything I have ever heard from the anti-Catholics here.  Please, you are embarrassing yourself.  I guarantee if anyone here goes and asks any knowledgeable Catholic about this, they will laugh and wonder who in the heck told you something that odd.  Never heard of it in my life.  No Bishop or priest can force you to get up and talk about your personal sins or the state of your marriage in front of the congregation.  Horse-feathers.

Canon Law 983-1  "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason."

I must get a Radical SANATION from the Bishop, and it would have to be a Bishop who was willing to risk causing a divorce and be willing to have me live in a Protestant marriage where my children are raised Protestant.

Well, no, you can't if your wife does not wish it.  Do you know what it even is?  A 'radical sanation' is for when two Catholics were married outside of the Church and then wish to have that marriage 'convalidated' by her.  If your wife and children are practising Evangelical Protestants then it is not a punishment that you cannot have one, you simply don't qualify to receive one as your wife is no longer a practising Catholic and does not wish to be one.  You cannot have a 'Sanation' or have your marriage convalidated simply because you alone wish it.  It isn't the Church's fault, they simply can't force your wife to be a party to something that you have repeatedly stated that she does not believe in or wants to participate in.

desert knight,

Okay you are correct on #3.  I can't get a Sanaton if my wife is not willing to go along with it. That is exactly what I have been saying!

You are absolutely wrong-wrong-wrong on #2.  My first wife and I were remarried in the Catholic Church and went though the entire process (1974).  I am talking about actual experience of both my first wife and I getting up in front of the whole church to make our little speech. The deacon helped us prepare for it, and was a witness for one of the steps of the process.  Let me ask you, why is it that you pass judgment and are 100 percent wrong?

You are absolutely wrong-wrong-wrong again on #1.  As late as a couple of months ago I went into St Margaret Mary's in Oakland, California to confess my sins to a priest.  It was face to face with me on my knees inside the booth. I started my confession with the facts of my marriage and the priest stopped me and told me that he could not not Absolve my sins.

Let me ask you again, How you can make these rash judgment against another Catholic?  Plus, you are wrong 2 out of 3 times. What make you so high and mighty. Have you ever asked a few questions first before passing your judgements?

[desertknight]

My first wife and I were remarried in the Catholic Church and went though the entire process (1974).  I am talking about actual experience of both my first wife and I getting up in front of the whole church to make our little speech. The deacon helped us prepare for it, and was a witness for one of the steps of the process. Let me ask you, why is it that you pass judgment and are 100 percent wrong?

First, again, I am not passing judgement on you banished, I just don't want you to be stating that this or that is Catholic doctrine or practice when you have it wrong.  Second, I may not have the facts of what you are trying to express here correct and they are really none of my business, but because you opened the door on this yourself by posting them, I have to try to make heads or tails of what you are saying.  Now you are saying that you had a first wife?  I am unclear on this.  And she and you were also, both Catholic and yet, as with this wife, decided to marry outside of the Church?  If so, then you obtained a 'radical sanation' in order to have your Protestant marriage con-validated and then had a Catholic ceremony in which some public confession was required?  If that was the case then it would seem appropriate.  For one thing, some public explanation would seem appropriate in order to explain why two people who are married are getting...married.  Second, a pro-forma account in the manner of our "Confiteor" during Mass is to be expected, but that is not how you put it.  

As late as a couple of months ago I went into St Margaret Mary's in Oakland, California to confess my sins to a priest.  It was face to face with me on my knees inside the booth. I started my confession with the facts of my marriage and the priest stopped me and told me that he could not not Absolve my sins.

I am uncomfortable in delving into what happened during your confession and so I will not go further into it, however, I will say that no priest is required to grant absolution if you have no intention to stop doing whatever sin it is that you are commiting.  Now I don't know what that is...and I don't want to.  However, if the wife you are with now is a second wife following a divorce, that could have some bearing on your confessional status, to say the least.   I apologise if I made incorrect comment earlier while not understanding your actual situation but you did not make it clear that you were once validly married within the Church once before, divorced, and now remarried, (If that is in fact the case.).   You presented your situation as if the problem was simply one of either marrying a Protestant, (Recieving an episcopal dispensation.), or one of two Catholics who became involved with a evangelical Protestant church, married within it, and then decided to return to the Catholic church.  Now, it seems from this last post that neither was the case.   

Let me ask you again, How you can make these rash judgment against another Catholic?  Plus, you are wrong 2 out of 3 times. What make you so high and mighty. Have you ever asked a few questions first before passing your judgements?

I try not to make "rash judgements", but I will comment on a public Christian message board when someone is out and out distorting or providing wrong information about the Catholic Church.  When you make some of the statements that you have made about, "Payola' into the Bishop's 401K" and "being married to a Protestant is a sin.", well then it just begs for correction.  I am far from "high and mighty".  I am a terrible sinner who is a hypocrite for coming across like I am some great Catholic Christian.  I am not.  I try to be faithful and stumble all the time, but that does not mean that I am going to "button up" when wrong things are being said about Holy Mother Church.

[banished]

desertknight-

I am widowed from my first wife and never have been divorced and neither was she.  My present wife (who never was married) and I did what many single Catholics have done.  We went on a date to a Christian Crusade at the the Convention Center.  A popular TV Evangelist who asked for an alter call at the end of the service for people to become Born Again.  Most of the people got up out of their seat and went to the front.  We all prayed the Sinner's Prayer and were given a tract. Then we formed small individual groups and prayed together.  My present wife and I were in love with each other and decided to get married with the Born Again people we were with.  They seemed to be so happy and full of Jesus that we didn't think about what might happen to us at our home church.  Canon Law ? ? Huh?     

[desertknight]

desertknight-

I am widowed from my first wife and never have been divorced and neither was she.  My present wife (who never was married) and I did what many single Catholics have done.  We went on a date to a Christian Crusade at the the Convention Center.  A popular TV Evangelist who asked for an alter call at the end of the service for people to become Born Again.  Most of the people got up out of their seat and went to the front.  We all prayed the Sinner's Prayer and were given a tract. Then we formed small individual groups and prayed together.  My present wife and I were in love with each other and decided to get married with the Born Again people we were with.  They seemed to be so happy and full of Jesus that we didn't think about what might happen to us at our home church.  Canon Law ? ? Huh?      

OK, I'll admit it.  You got me stumped.  I have never heard of a scenario like yours and am ignorant of specific Church doctrine as to what to say about it.  It's a new one on me.  It would seem to be more complicated than just one marriage outside the church, after you became a widower from the first one, that was conducted without proper dispensation, but maybe not.  It would also seem that your wife's refusal to participate in any convalidation, even though she would remain Protestant, adds to the conundrum.  St. Margaret Mary parish in Oakland is an excellent church with great and very orthodox priests so I would take heed as to what you were told in the confessional.  If you are living in a persistent state of sin without desire to make amends then it is the priest's duty to deny absolution and yours to pray and reflect on what to do about it.  I can only offer you a prayer, and I have done that.