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Offline Stranger

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #35 on: Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 15:22:02 »
but he has nothing in me. no bent or desire to do wrong . nothing. no memory, no path , no way , no door, no eniquity no transgression no sin.  he was bruised for our eniquity not his and so we can be free of our carnal nature that claws on the inside of us. enquity is the bent or desire to do wrong. transgression is when we act on it. He didnt have marys sin. And yes she sinned like all mankind.

That's all true, no one will argue.  But, we are discussing the 'how' that was accomplished.   'How' did the Son become man and free from sin?   Do you see?

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #35 on: Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 15:22:02 »

Offline bemark

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #36 on: Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 16:09:31 »
Did Adam and Eve need to be born or were they made. one from the dust and one from the rib. Where was the sperm and the Egg in that one? Could have God just made the second Adam like he did in the begining with out the sperm or egg. He  didnt need mans help then,  Dont know.

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #36 on: Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 16:09:31 »

Offline Stranger

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #37 on: Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 18:07:44 »
Did Adam and Eve need to be born or were they made. one from the dust and one from the rib. Where was the sperm and the Egg in that one? Could have God just made the second Adam like he did in the begining with out the sperm or egg. He  didnt need mans help then,  Dont know.

If you don't know, then just standby and learn.   

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Offline winsome

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #38 on: Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 05:29:29 »
Hi Stranger,

You claim that God created a new body for Christ. As far as I can see the only scripture you have quoted to support this is  Heb 10:5
"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"

This does not say that God created a body but prepared one. Prepare does not mean create anew,  and there are several scriptures that refute that.

1. Heb 2;14 says
“Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature,…”

Jesus has the same nature – not a similar newly created nature.

2. Genesis 3:15
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

The ‘he’ is Jesus and he will be the seed of the woman. This clearly implies a genetic descent.

3. Gal 3:16
"Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many; but, referring to one, "And to your offspring," which is Christ."

If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from Abraham.

4. Gen 22;18
“and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice."

We are blessed through Christ. So he had to be a descendant of Abraham.

5. Rom 1:3
“…the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh”.

If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from David according to the flesh.

6. Rom 9:4-5
“They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ.

Again, if Christ was a brand new creation he could not have been an Israelite according to the flesh.

7. Gal 4:4
“But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law”

The Greek for ‘born’ here is gemenenon, Strong 1096:
“A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being),…”
The KJV translates it as made.
Again this implies that Jesus body is generated (made) from Mary.

8. Lk 1:31
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus”

By any normal interpretation conceive means to become pregnant with material from the mother.

9. Lk 1:32
“He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David”.

If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from David and therefore David could not be called his father and he would have no legitimate claim to the throne of David. God’s promise to David (2Sam 7:16) would have been broken:
“And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me; your throne shall be established for ever.”

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #38 on: Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 05:29:29 »

Offline Stranger

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #39 on: Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 07:14:53 »
Hello Winsome

I am not saying that Jesus is not connected to the line of Mary or David or Abraham or Adam.  He most definitely is.  But that body that was prepared for Him could not come from Mary's flesh.  Else it would be sinful.   To that you agree as Catholics see this problem answered in Mary's sin being taken away from her.   Correct?

I did give other Scripture also.  Phil. 2:5-7 " ...made in the likeness of men: 

It says in John 1:14 that " ...the Word was made flesh...."    And earlier it said that everything was made by God.  John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. "   The same word is used for the Word being made flesh as for all things made by God.

I agree that Jesus is of the seed of the woman.   But, you said earlier that women have no seed.  And of course that  is what we are always told.  But, Scripture does say the woman has seed.  And I believe it.    And I believe that it is somehow here where the answer lies. 

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #39 on: Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 07:14:53 »



Offline winsome

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #40 on: Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 10:22:36 »
Hello Winsome

I am not saying that Jesus is not connected to the line of Mary or David or Abraham or Adam.

But that is exactly what you are claiming.

But that body that was prepared for Him could not come from Mary's flesh.  Else it would be sinful.   To that you agree as Catholics see this problem answered in Mary's sin being taken away from her.   Correct?

Incorrect


I did give other Scripture also.  Phil. 2:5-7 " ...made in the likeness of men:   

That adds nothing to your claim.

It says in John 1:14 that " ...the Word was made flesh...."    And earlier it said that everything was made by God.  John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. "   The same word is used for the Word being made flesh as for all things made by God.

Yes it’s the same base word – G1096 – that I quoted in my last post
“A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being),…”
 
And that made/caused to be/come into being is from a woman (Mary) – Gal 4:4

I agree that Jesus is of the seed of the woman.   But, you said earlier that women have no seed.  And of course that  is what we are always told.  But, Scripture does say the woman has seed.  And I believe it.    And I believe that it is somehow here where the answer lies. 

Stranger

Literally seeds come from plants. Therefore neither a woman nor a man literally has seed since we are not plants. But by analogy to a plant, the woman has a seed in that her eggs are analogous to seeds (or at least the ovules). The analogy for a male is pollen. A more accurate analogy of the seed is a fertilised egg – one that is prepared for growth in the womb – the fruit of the womb.

Are you going to respond to the scriptures I quoted or are you going to try and ignore them?

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #41 on: Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 11:45:11 »
winsome

No, Im  saying Jesus was not made of Mary's corrupt flesh.  And how is it Catholics are not saying the same thing?

Well, Phil. 2:5-7 says 'in the likeness of men" .  Rom. 8:3 says "in the likeness of sinful flesh".  Like but somewhat different.

You ignore the point John 1:14.  That is John 1:3.  "All things are made by Him".   The same word is used there to speak of all that God created.

Again, I believe the Scripture.  It says from the woman's seed.   And it speaks of man having seed.   

I thought I did address them as they all speak to lineal descent.  And I said at the begining that I'm not saying that Jesus is not connected to the lineage of Mary. 

And you never answered my question.  Was the flesh of Adam celestial, or other worldly or what, when God made it?

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Offline winsome

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #42 on: Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 12:23:49 »
winsome

No, Im  saying Jesus was not made of Mary's corrupt flesh.  And how is it Catholics are not saying the same thing?
Jesus was not made of Mary’s corrupt flesh because she didn’t have corrupt flesh.
Well, Phil. 2:5-7 says 'in the likeness of men" .  Rom. 8:3 says "in the likeness of sinful flesh".  Like but somewhat different.

So what? How does that say that Jesus had a special body created just for him?

You ignore the point John 1:14.  That is John 1:3.  "All things are made by Him".   The same word is used there to speak of all that God created.

I’m not ignoring the point. Make is not necessarily the same as created

Again, I believe the Scripture.  It says from the woman's seed.   And it speaks of man having seed.   

 Does it? Where?
 
I thought I did address them as they all speak to lineal descent.  And I said at the begining that I'm not saying that Jesus is not connected to the lineage of Mary.

 No, you didn’t address them. You tried to sidestep them with vague ‘lineal descent’ and ‘connected to the lineage’ without any explanation. as to what you meant by that.
 

And you never answered my question.  Was the flesh of Adam celestial, or other worldly or what, when God made it?

I never said that Adam’s flesh was celestial or that Jesus’ flesh was celestial. Adam was made from the dust of the earth. Jesus was ‘made/caused to be/come into being’ from Mary.

Here is a reminder of the scriptures you are ignoring:

3. Gal 3:16
 "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many; but, referring to one, "And to your offspring," which is Christ."
 
 If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from Abraham.
 
 4. Gen 22;18
 “and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice."
 
 We are blessed through Christ. So he had to be a descendant of Abraham.
 
 5. Rom 1:3
 “…the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh”.
 
 If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from David according to the flesh.
 
 6. Rom 9:4-5
 “They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ.
 
 Again, if Christ was a brand new creation he could not have been an Israelite according to the flesh.
 
 7. Gal 4:4
 “But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law”
 
 The Greek for ‘born’ here is gemenenon, Strong 1096:
 “A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being),…”
 The KJV translates it as made.
 Again this implies that Jesus body is generated (made) from Mary.
 
 8. Lk 1:31
 “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus”
 
 By any normal interpretation conceive means to become pregnant with material from the mother.
 
 9. Lk 1:32
 “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David”.
 
 If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from David and therefore David could not be called his father and he would have no legitimate claim to the throne of David. God’s promise to David (2Sam 7:16) would have been broken:
 “And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me; your throne shall be established for ever.”
 

Offline Stranger

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #43 on: Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 17:21:47 »
winsome

Well, if Mary didn't have corrupt flesh, where did hers come from.  Sounds 'celestial' to me.  If Mary is connected to Adam, then her flesh has to be corrupted, ulnless God did something special.  Did He?

And concerning Adams flesh, it was made before the fall.  It was made before the earth was cursed.  So would you consider his flesh 'heavenly', or 'celestial'.

When John 1:3 says 'All things were made by Him', that means creation.  In other words, the word 'created' is not used, the word 'made' is. Which means the exact word 'create' doesn't have to be used to speak to 'creation'.   See Ps. 124:8, 134:3  Which means in Hebrew 10:5 where it says, 'a body hast thou prepared me', just because the word 'created' wasn't used, doesn't mean it was not especially made by the Holy Spirit. 

A body prepared for Christ------Heb.10:5
That Holy Thing born of Mary---Lu. 1:35
The Word was made flesh-------Jn. 1:14


There are many many seed verses in the Scripture.  Here are just a few.
Gen. 3:15 'seed of the woman'
Lev. 12:2 'if a woman have conceived seed'
Lev.15:16,17, 18, 32  'if any mans seed of copulation'

Again, I addressed your Scriptures.  I don't deny the lineal descent of Christ all the way back to Adam.  I deny He was made of Mary's sinful flesh.

Stranger


« Last Edit: Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 17:47:35 by Stranger »

Offline winsome

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #44 on: Fri Sep 23, 2016 - 03:52:56 »
winsome

Well, if Mary didn't have corrupt flesh, where did hers come from.  Sounds 'celestial' to me.  If Mary is connected to Adam, then her flesh has to be corrupted, ulnless God did something special.  Did He?

See reply #22

  I deny He was made of Mary's sinful flesh.

So do I because Mary did not have "sinful flesh" - see reply #22

Again, I addressed your Scriptures.  I don't deny the lineal descent of Christ all the way back to Adam.


So how can he have had lineal descent "according to the flesh" if that descent wasn't a biological descent.

If that descent is biological -  "according to the flesh" - then he came from Mary's flesh.

You are still avoiding:
Rom 1:3
 “…the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh”.
 
Rom 9:4-5
 “They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ.
 

Look Stranger - you keep avoiding the main issue here. I will await your proper response but I will waste no more time until you respond to that.

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #45 on: Fri Sep 23, 2016 - 05:00:03 »
winsome

As I said earlier, to which you disagree of course,  Mary's immaculate conception is Catholics way of dealing with the problem of corrupt flesh.  How can Jesus be born without sin from Mary who is sinner?   

In other words, a virgin birth alone is not the answer if Mary's sinful flesh is involved.  Catholics answer that with immaculate conception. 

I disagree with that, but then I'm left with the problem still.  If Mary is a sinner like all are, then how can her flesh be used to make the body for Jesus Christ Who is without sin?

I believe, as I said earlier, that the answer lies in the 'seed of the woman'.   But you disagree with that cause you say neither men or women have seed. 

The Scriptures which say 'according to the flesh' are true.  I believe the seed of the woman which originated in Eve, before the fall, was not stained with sin as Adams seed was.  It was placed in her and protected.   And every woman has that seed.  But when they have sex with a man, then the seed of the man contaminates her seed and the result is a sinner born from Adam.  Because it is Mary's seed, it is of her but protected from her sinful flesh. 

It is that seed that I believe the Holy Spirit used to prepare, make, create a body for Jesus Christ.  The union of God and that seed is mysterious to say the least.  And the link to Mary, David, Abraham remains.  And the link to Adam remains because Eve is taken from Adams flesh.  Sinless flesh.   

It is very interesting and there are books on it.

Stranger










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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #46 on: Fri Sep 23, 2016 - 12:05:55 »
winsome

As I said earlier, to which you disagree of course,  Mary's immaculate conception is Catholics way of dealing with the problem of corrupt flesh.  How can Jesus be born without sin from Mary who is sinner?   

In other words, a virgin birth alone is not the answer if Mary's sinful flesh is involved.  Catholics answer that with immaculate conception. 

I disagree with that, but then I'm left with the problem still.  If Mary is a sinner like all are, then how can her flesh be used to make the body for Jesus Christ Who is without sin?

I believe, as I said earlier, that the answer lies in the 'seed of the woman'.   But you disagree with that cause you say neither men or women have seed. 

The Scriptures which say 'according to the flesh' are true.  I believe the seed of the woman which originated in Eve, before the fall, was not stained with sin as Adams seed was.  It was placed in her and protected.   And every woman has that seed.  But when they have sex with a man, then the seed of the man contaminates her seed and the result is a sinner born from Adam.  Because it is Mary's seed, it is of her but protected from her sinful flesh. 

It is that seed that I believe the Holy Spirit used to prepare, make, create a body for Jesus Christ.  The union of God and that seed is mysterious to say the least.  And the link to Mary, David, Abraham remains.  And the link to Adam remains because Eve is taken from Adams flesh.  Sinless flesh.   

It is very interesting and there are books on it.

Stranger

So according to your theory, every women living, or who who has ever lived, has an immaculate egg in her body, just in case God chose her to be the mother of Jesus, but you just cannot believe that God could preserve one women from the effects of original sin.

Well, no more to be said then!

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Re: corrupt flesh ?
« Reply #47 on: Fri Sep 23, 2016 - 13:59:14 »
winsome

I like the Scriptural word, seed.   And not a 'just in case'.  God was setting in place the salvation for man at the very begining of His creation.

Oh, I guess God could have preserved a woman from the affects of original sin, if she had been born of the union of God with the seed of the woman as Christ was.  But Scripture tells us it was Christ that was born that way.  Not Mary. 

And if Mary is the product of a man and woman, then she is a sinner.  You were adamant about the linage of the flesh concerning Christ.  Well, there is no way Mary cannot be a sinner with the linage she has. 

In other words, I think what I believe has more credibility in the Scripture than what you believe. 

Stranger