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Offline Scott1

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2012, 01:43:41 AM »
Thanks again AVZ .... very interesting info.

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2012, 01:43:41 AM »

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2012, 10:51:11 PM »
Are you not the person that claims not to know if he will be saved?
So if you yourself hold it possible that Jesus' flesh profits you nothing, then why the denigrating attitude towards others?

Jesus flesh and blood redeemed ALL mankind.  Without his flesh and blood NONE of us would have a chance of salvation.

If you had read my post C*A*R*E*F*U*L*L*Y, which you never do - you would have seen that I wrote:
"It profits us SALVATION because it was by the sacrifice of his FLESH and BLOOD that we even have a chance of Salvation."

Helpful hint:
READ before responding.


That chance of salvation is due to His BLOOD alone! (Romans 3:25) (rev1:5)

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2012, 10:51:11 PM »

Offline grace

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2012, 03:19:27 PM »
Came across something that shed a little light on the dark ages...

313 AD. Constantine becomes the ruler of the Roman Empire and chooses Christianity as the best of religions and began to control the affairs of the Church. God's Word says that Jesus is supposed to be the head and control the Church. (Eph.1:22-23, Col.1:18) The Church was declining fast!

 By the beginning of the 3rd.century, Biblical interpretation was greatly influenced by the Catechetical School of Alexandria, which  had become the great melting pot of Greek philosophy and Judaism. Origen was the chief representative of this School and DID NOT believe in the Deity of Christ. (i.e. that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh) Alexandria was also a theological ferment where "philosophers
attempted to fuse the doctrine of Christianity with the ideal's of Greek philosophy" Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia, 96 / Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia, Vol.1. p.372 


By 323 AD. A threatened split in the Christian Church ...This quarrel was over Arius (Arian) and the doctrine of the Godhead (i.e. the trinity). Arius was a priest of  Alexandria that denied the Deity of Christ. (That Jesus was God manifest in the flesh John.1:1-14; Matt.1:23; John.5:17-18; 17:1-5 / Isa.42:8, John.7:39; 14:15--26, Acts.2:1) 
 
       Just like the illustration of Samson, the Church was not to "come at no dead body" (Num.6:6, Judges.13:5, 1Cor.3:17; 6:15-20, James.4:1-4, 2Cor.11:1-3)  Dead meaning, "dead works" (Heb.6:1, Eph.2:1) Our self righteousness. He was to remain consecrated to God. Samson did not remain separated, and neither did the  Church, and now by the 2nd.Century they are being "entangled" with "affairs in this life." (2Tim.2:3-4)

 Not only was the Church forsaking truth, this Arian heresy was corrupting the scribes who were hand copying* the Greek manuscripts. They were changing the Greek manuscripts claiming they were correcting them. (Sounds like today!) They were leaving out words that proclaimed Jesus as Deity, and the creator of the worlds.

The printing press would not be invented until the 14th. century. This left opportunity for a copying scribe to alter God's Word.

Constantine called for the Council of Nicaea. 325 AD.
 This was an ecumenical, or worldwide council of Bishops to correct the Arian heresy. (The denial of the Deity of Christ)  The Nicaean Council overwhelmingly condemned the Arian heresy, and drew up the "Nicaean Creed." However, like that of Samson's brethren, (Judges.15:9-10) the Church under the hand of Constantine, gave up
truth to the Philistines. (i.e. the vain deceit, philosophy and traditions of men - Col.2:8, Matt.15:6) This would eventually lead the Church to the captivity of the "dark ages" as it did to Samson.

In spite of the (Nicaean) council's decisions' the problem of Arianism was not solved for some decades. The Emperor Constantine II, Constantine's son, supported Arianism, as did Valens, one of his successors. This doctrine persisted until at least the 7th.century. Arianism today, is held by Unitarians, Jehovah Witnesses.23  The next 300 years, all the Bishops in the Roman Catholic Church were Arian in belief.
       
       "...Constantine, the wolf of paganism openly assumed the sheep's clothing
     of the Christian religion."

350 AD. Now Christianity is the religion of the state. (Rome)Heathens were forced into the Church without being born again. Many heathen preferred to be called Christians rather than face the sword. Needless to say, the doctrine of Justification by Faith and the new birth were no longer emphasized.

By 392 AD. Theodosius.... He went even further when he outlawed heathen worship. It now came under penalty of death for any one to have any religious connection other than that of the established Roman Church.  WHAT A TURN AROUND!

During the Dark Ages very little translation was attempted...the Word of God was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people.  Thompson Chain Ref. Bible. Condensed Encyclopedia, p.181  ::pondering::

Offline mclees8

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2012, 08:38:20 AM »
Came across something that shed a little light on the dark ages...

313 AD. Constantine becomes the ruler of the Roman Empire and chooses Christianity as the best of religions and began to control the affairs of the Church. God's Word says that Jesus is supposed to be the head and control the Church. (Eph.1:22-23, Col.1:18) The Church was declining fast!

 By the beginning of the 3rd.century, Biblical interpretation was greatly influenced by the Catechetical School of Alexandria, which  had become the great melting pot of Greek philosophy and Judaism. Origen was the chief representative of this School and DID NOT believe in the Deity of Christ. (i.e. that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh) Alexandria was also a theological ferment where "philosophers
attempted to fuse the doctrine of Christianity with the ideal's of Greek philosophy" Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia, 96 / Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia, Vol.1. p.372 


By 323 AD. A threatened split in the Christian Church ...This quarrel was over Arius (Arian) and the doctrine of the Godhead (i.e. the trinity). Arius was a priest of  Alexandria that denied the Deity of Christ. (That Jesus was God manifest in the flesh John.1:1-14; Matt.1:23; John.5:17-18; 17:1-5 / Isa.42:8, John.7:39; 14:15--26, Acts.2:1) 
 
       Just like the illustration of Samson, the Church was not to "come at no dead body" (Num.6:6, Judges.13:5, 1Cor.3:17; 6:15-20, James.4:1-4, 2Cor.11:1-3)  Dead meaning, "dead works" (Heb.6:1, Eph.2:1) Our self righteousness. He was to remain consecrated to God. Samson did not remain separated, and neither did the  Church, and now by the 2nd.Century they are being "entangled" with "affairs in this life." (2Tim.2:3-4)

 Not only was the Church forsaking truth, this Arian heresy was corrupting the scribes who were hand copying* the Greek manuscripts. They were changing the Greek manuscripts claiming they were correcting them. (Sounds like today!) They were leaving out words that proclaimed Jesus as Deity, and the creator of the worlds.

The printing press would not be invented until the 14th. century. This left opportunity for a copying scribe to alter God's Word.

Constantine called for the Council of Nicaea. 325 AD.
 This was an ecumenical, or worldwide council of Bishops to correct the Arian heresy. (The denial of the Deity of Christ)  The Nicaean Council overwhelmingly condemned the Arian heresy, and drew up the "Nicaean Creed." However, like that of Samson's brethren, (Judges.15:9-10) the Church under the hand of Constantine, gave up
truth to the Philistines. (i.e. the vain deceit, philosophy and traditions of men - Col.2:8, Matt.15:6) This would eventually lead the Church to the captivity of the "dark ages" as it did to Samson.

In spite of the (Nicaean) council's decisions' the problem of Arianism was not solved for some decades. The Emperor Constantine II, Constantine's son, supported Arianism, as did Valens, one of his successors. This doctrine persisted until at least the 7th.century. Arianism today, is held by Unitarians, Jehovah Witnesses.23  The next 300 years, all the Bishops in the Roman Catholic Church were Arian in belief.
       
       "...Constantine, the wolf of paganism openly assumed the sheep's clothing
     of the Christian religion."

350 AD. Now Christianity is the religion of the state. (Rome)Heathens were forced into the Church without being born again. Many heathen preferred to be called Christians rather than face the sword. Needless to say, the doctrine of Justification by Faith and the new birth were no longer emphasized.

By 392 AD. Theodosius.... He went even further when he outlawed heathen worship. It now came under penalty of death for any one to have any religious connection other than that of the established Roman Church.  WHAT A TURN AROUND!

During the Dark Ages very little translation was attempted...the Word of God was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people.  Thompson Chain Ref. Bible. Condensed Encyclopedia, p.181  ::pondering::

Very well stated.  Good stuff

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2012, 08:38:20 AM »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2012, 10:05:57 AM »
Did it really matter whether or not the Bible was in the Latin tongue?  In the middle ages (and for some time after) the common person could not read nor write. The teachings of the Scriptures were dependent on the preaching of the Word, or in picture form (stained glass widows, paintings, etc.). I would say that the  use of latin was a unifier of the faithful in worship worldwide, not a detriment.

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2012, 10:05:57 AM »



Offline grace

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2012, 10:12:20 AM »
It was mostly that they were kept in the dark....

Dark Ages, meaning spiritually dark, no light from God's Word. (Psa.119:130, Prov.6:23) Outwardly man had built great Cathedrals "which appear beautiful...but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." (Matt.23:27)  The House of God was now a natural building and not the people of God. (John.2:18-20, Matt.16:18; 23:36, 1Cor.3:16-17; 6:19, Eph.2:1-22)      Nevertheless, during the "dark ages" there were individuals "grinding in the (spiritual) prison  house" as Samson was. Just as the Philistines thought they had the upper hand, Satan thought he had finally crushed the Church. (Judges.16:21-23) HE WAS MISTAKEN!

There was Nicholas of Lyra (1279 -1340 AD.)
Spoken of as the bridge between the Middle (Dark) Ages and the Reformation. His work had a profound influence on Luther and help "seed" the Reformation.

Next was John Wycliffe (1330 -1384 AD.)
An English theologian and religious reformer whose rejection of the biblical basis of papal power and dispute with the doctrine of the transubstantiation of the host anticipated the Protestant Reformation. He was the "morning star" of the Reformation," and recognized scripture as the final authority, not the Catholic Church. Wycliffe also translated the Bible from Latin to English.  The Church of the spiritual decline and "dark ages" response was, "Such a version would  also make it easier for him (Wycliffe) to propagate his teachings." The New American Bible, The English Versions of the Bible, p.1452

     Wycliffe declared
     "...that the people had the right to read the Bible and interpret it for  
                      themselves..."
    
 During the "dark ages" the Bible was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people. Only the "educated priests" interpreted the Bible for the people.

Some today still wait for those who have theological degrees to tell them what the Bible means, rather than let the Holy Spirit lead them into all truth. (John.16:12-13) Leadership is there not to have "dominion over your faith," (2Cor.1:24, Matt.20:24-28) but to be "helpers of your joy" in understanding what God is teaching YOU! (1John.2:27)

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2012, 10:57:39 AM »
It was mostly that they were kept in the dark....

Dark Ages, meaning spiritually dark, no light from God's Word. (Psa.119:130, Prov.6:23) Outwardly man had built great Cathedrals "which appear beautiful...but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." (Matt.23:27)  The House of God was now a natural building and not the people of God. (John.2:18-20, Matt.16:18; 23:36, 1Cor.3:16-17; 6:19, Eph.2:1-22)      Nevertheless, during the "dark ages" there were individuals "grinding in the (spiritual) prison  house" as Samson was. Just as the Philistines thought they had the upper hand, Satan thought he had finally crushed the Church. (Judges.16:21-23) HE WAS MISTAKEN!

There was Nicholas of Lyra (1279 -1340 AD.)
Spoken of as the bridge between the Middle (Dark) Ages and the Reformation. His work had a profound influence on Luther and help "seed" the Reformation.

Next was John Wycliffe (1330 -1384 AD.)
An English theologian and religious reformer whose rejection of the biblical basis of papal power and dispute with the doctrine of the transubstantiation of the host anticipated the Protestant Reformation. He was the "morning star" of the Reformation," and recognized scripture as the final authority, not the Catholic Church. Wycliffe also translated the Bible from Latin to English.  The Church of the spiritual decline and "dark ages" response was, "Such a version would  also make it easier for him (Wycliffe) to propagate his teachings." The New American Bible, The English Versions of the Bible, p.1452

     Wycliffe declared
     "...that the people had the right to read the Bible and interpret it for  
                      themselves..."
    
 During the "dark ages" the Bible was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people. Only the "educated priests" interpreted the Bible for the people.

Some today still wait for those who have theological degrees to tell them what the Bible means, rather than let the Holy Spirit lead them into all truth. (John.16:12-13) Leadership is there not to have "dominion over your faith," (2Cor.1:24, Matt.20:24-28) but to be "helpers of your joy" in understanding what God is teaching YOU! (1John.2:27)


Oh yes, I see where you are coming from - and I couldn't disagree more. You believe the heresies prolumgated by these "reformers", mere men who now suddenly had the truth.

Personal interpretation of the Scriptures leads people to error - witness the thousands upon thousands of Christian sects. It wasn't just educated priests who interpreted the Scriptures - but the Church as a whole, the "Magisterium" if you will, an entity desired by God (Jesus) for the correct teaching of the Word.

The "Dark Ages" were those years of the heathen invaders of Europe, not the Holy Church.

Offline winsome

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2012, 01:01:58 PM »
It was mostly that they were kept in the dark....

Dark Ages, meaning spiritually dark, no light from God's Word. (Psa.119:130, Prov.6:23) Outwardly man had built great Cathedrals "which appear beautiful...but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." (Matt.23:27)  The House of God was now a natural building and not the people of God. (John.2:18-20, Matt.16:18; 23:36, 1Cor.3:16-17; 6:19, Eph.2:1-22)      Nevertheless, during the "dark ages" there were individuals "grinding in the (spiritual) prison  house" as Samson was. Just as the Philistines thought they had the upper hand, Satan thought he had finally crushed the Church. (Judges.16:21-23) HE WAS MISTAKEN!

The dark ages refer to the (approx) 500 years after the fall of the Roman Empire in the West. It was called the dark ages because we know relatively little about it. After Rome fell, technology reverted. People no longer built in stone but wood. Household vessels were mostly of wood not pottery. This all rotted in the ground so very little archeological evidence remains. There was very little writing outside of monasteries.

That why the term "dark ages" was coined". There is no spiritual significance to the term.


Next was John Wycliffe (1330 -1384 AD.)
An English theologian and religious reformer whose rejection of the biblical basis of papal power and dispute with the doctrine of the transubstantiation of the host anticipated the Protestant Reformation. He was the "morning star" of the Reformation," and recognized scripture as the final authority, not the Catholic Church. Wycliffe also translated the Bible from Latin to English.  The Church of the spiritual decline and "dark ages" response was, "Such a version would  also make it easier for him (Wycliffe) to propagate his teachings." The New American Bible, The English Versions of the Bible, p.1452

     Wycliffe declared
     "...that the people had the right to read the Bible and interpret it for  
                      themselves..."

Except that most people couldn't read. Those that did read Latin.
    
 
During the "dark ages" the Bible was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people. Only the "educated priests" interpreted the Bible for the people.

Actually there were many translations into the common tongues but the common people couldn't read and couldn't afford Bible. In Wycliffe's time they were hand transcribed and very expensive.

Do you know that the inventor of the printing press (Gutenberg) was a Catholic and the first thing he printed on his new invention was the Bible.


Offline winsome

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2012, 01:03:13 PM »
Came across something that shed a little light on the dark ages...

313 AD. Constantine becomes the ruler of the Roman Empire and chooses Christianity as the best of religions and began to control the affairs of the Church. God's Word says that Jesus is supposed to be the head and control the Church. (Eph.1:22-23, Col.1:18) The Church was declining fast!

 By the beginning of the 3rd.century, Biblical interpretation was greatly influenced by the Catechetical School of Alexandria, which  had become the great melting pot of Greek philosophy and Judaism. Origen was the chief representative of this School and DID NOT believe in the Deity of Christ. (i.e. that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh) Alexandria was also a theological ferment where "philosophers
attempted to fuse the doctrine of Christianity with the ideal's of Greek philosophy" Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia, 96 / Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia, Vol.1. p.372 


By 323 AD. A threatened split in the Christian Church ...This quarrel was over Arius (Arian) and the doctrine of the Godhead (i.e. the trinity). Arius was a priest of  Alexandria that denied the Deity of Christ. (That Jesus was God manifest in the flesh John.1:1-14; Matt.1:23; John.5:17-18; 17:1-5 / Isa.42:8, John.7:39; 14:15--26, Acts.2:1) 
 
       Just like the illustration of Samson, the Church was not to "come at no dead body" (Num.6:6, Judges.13:5, 1Cor.3:17; 6:15-20, James.4:1-4, 2Cor.11:1-3)  Dead meaning, "dead works" (Heb.6:1, Eph.2:1) Our self righteousness. He was to remain consecrated to God. Samson did not remain separated, and neither did the  Church, and now by the 2nd.Century they are being "entangled" with "affairs in this life." (2Tim.2:3-4)

 Not only was the Church forsaking truth, this Arian heresy was corrupting the scribes who were hand copying* the Greek manuscripts. They were changing the Greek manuscripts claiming they were correcting them. (Sounds like today!) They were leaving out words that proclaimed Jesus as Deity, and the creator of the worlds.

The printing press would not be invented until the 14th. century. This left opportunity for a copying scribe to alter God's Word.

Constantine called for the Council of Nicaea. 325 AD.
 This was an ecumenical, or worldwide council of Bishops to correct the Arian heresy. (The denial of the Deity of Christ)  The Nicaean Council overwhelmingly condemned the Arian heresy, and drew up the "Nicaean Creed." However, like that of Samson's brethren, (Judges.15:9-10) the Church under the hand of Constantine, gave up
truth to the Philistines. (i.e. the vain deceit, philosophy and traditions of men - Col.2:8, Matt.15:6) This would eventually lead the Church to the captivity of the "dark ages" as it did to Samson.

In spite of the (Nicaean) council's decisions' the problem of Arianism was not solved for some decades. The Emperor Constantine II, Constantine's son, supported Arianism, as did Valens, one of his successors. This doctrine persisted until at least the 7th.century. Arianism today, is held by Unitarians, Jehovah Witnesses.23  The next 300 years, all the Bishops in the Roman Catholic Church were Arian in belief.
       
       "...Constantine, the wolf of paganism openly assumed the sheep's clothing
     of the Christian religion."

350 AD. Now Christianity is the religion of the state. (Rome)Heathens were forced into the Church without being born again. Many heathen preferred to be called Christians rather than face the sword. Needless to say, the doctrine of Justification by Faith and the new birth were no longer emphasized.

By 392 AD. Theodosius.... He went even further when he outlawed heathen worship. It now came under penalty of death for any one to have any religious connection other than that of the established Roman Church.  WHAT A TURN AROUND!

During the Dark Ages very little translation was attempted...the Word of God was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people.  Thompson Chain Ref. Bible. Condensed Encyclopedia, p.181  ::pondering::

Very well stated.  Good stuff

What a load of unhistorical bilge.

Offline grace

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2012, 02:08:53 PM »
Please show what is untrue.... ::shrug::

After Wycliffe was John (Jan) Hus (1372-1415 AD.) 
Wycliffe's ideas spread into Bohemia, where Jan (John) Hus widely preached them in powerful sermons and was burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church for his Bible based belief's inspired by Wycliffe)

Remember, the Nazarite Vow is a Vow of separation and consecration unto God. (Num.6:1-21) Just as Samson was to be a "Nazarite unto God from the womb," (Judges.13:5) the Church was birthed to be separated unto God. (2Cor.6:14-18) 

Samson's hair beginning to grow back  is a picture of the Church beginning to separated from "dead works" and having " faith towards God" (Heb.6:1)  From the end of the 1st.Century until the 15th. Century, the Church like Samson went to sleep (spiritually) on the knees of the harlot Church, (Delilah). This resulted in their consecration and separation (hair) being shaved off and they became "weak like any other man." (Judges.16:17) This gave the "advantage" to Satan (the Philistines) who put out the spiritual eyes of the Church and bound them with spiritual "fetters of brass;" leaving them to "grind in the prison house" of the dark ages. But now, Samson's hair is beginning to "grow again." The Reformation was about to break out! God was about to call a people out unto Himself,  just as He did when He called Israel out of Egypt.....

It is not coincidental that before the Reformation. God's Word had been placed back into Greek without the corruption of the 2nd. Century. Tyndale had translated this Greek text into English. The printing press had been invented which allowed the Bible to be put in the hands of the common people.

Now "religious texts, once read only by scholars...and educated priesthood, were now available to an ever-widening audience."

The Reformation and Martin Luther (1517 AD)
Just as Samson had seven locks of hair, before it was cut off, (Judges.16:19) God was revealing to Luther the first, of seven principles of the doctrine of Christ. (Heb.6:1-3)  Repentance from dead works and faith towards God. Luther rejected the authority of the Pope and selling of indulgences (temporary pardons) for sin). He preached the "Bible is the sole source of Christian truth and he denied the priests hand any more power that the layman did not have. (Compton Interactive Encyclopedia, 1996 "Reformation"- Luther sparks revolt in Germany.")

               

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2012, 03:42:42 PM »
You can quote them all you want, but the Thompsons Chain Reference Bible is not an un-biased source.

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2012, 04:23:55 PM »
It was mostly that they were kept in the dark....

Dark Ages, meaning spiritually dark, no light from God's Word. (Psa.119:130, Prov.6:23) Outwardly man had built great Cathedrals "which appear beautiful...but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." (Matt.23:27)  The House of God was now a natural building and not the people of God. (John.2:18-20, Matt.16:18; 23:36, 1Cor.3:16-17; 6:19, Eph.2:1-22)      Nevertheless, during the "dark ages" there were individuals "grinding in the (spiritual) prison  house" as Samson was. Just as the Philistines thought they had the upper hand, Satan thought he had finally crushed the Church. (Judges.16:21-23) HE WAS MISTAKEN!

The dark ages refer to the (approx) 500 years after the fall of the Roman Empire in the West. It was called the dark ages because we know relatively little about it. After Rome fell, technology reverted. People no longer built in stone but wood. Household vessels were mostly of wood not pottery. This all rotted in the ground so very little archeological evidence remains. There was very little writing outside of monasteries.

That why the term "dark ages" was coined". There is no spiritual significance to the term.


Next was John Wycliffe (1330 -1384 AD.)
An English theologian and religious reformer whose rejection of the biblical basis of papal power and dispute with the doctrine of the transubstantiation of the host anticipated the Protestant Reformation. He was the "morning star" of the Reformation," and recognized scripture as the final authority, not the Catholic Church. Wycliffe also translated the Bible from Latin to English.  The Church of the spiritual decline and "dark ages" response was, "Such a version would  also make it easier for him (Wycliffe) to propagate his teachings." The New American Bible, The English Versions of the Bible, p.1452

     Wycliffe declared
     "...that the people had the right to read the Bible and interpret it for  
                      themselves..."

Except that most people couldn't read. Those that did read Latin.
    
 
During the "dark ages" the Bible was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people. Only the "educated priests" interpreted the Bible for the people.

Actually there were many translations into the common tongues but the common people couldn't read and couldn't afford Bible. In Wycliffe's time they were hand transcribed and very expensive.

Do you know that the inventor of the printing press (Gutenberg) was a Catholic and the first thing he printed on his new invention was the Bible.



You can present logical reasons for this and that, but there is still one thing and that is the people were ignorant and the church taught only what they wanted to teach. They told them they were the successors of Peter by petrine succession. Yet there are no letters that truly back that up.They were the authority religiously and politically so they were not to be challenged. You say Gutenberg was a catholic. I would say that in that time most everyone was but not because they were truly biblically saved. Most were catholics because catholicsm was the relgion of the land. I wonder what Gutenberg thought after have truly read the scriptures.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2012, 04:58:46 PM »
It was mostly that they were kept in the dark....

Dark Ages, meaning spiritually dark, no light from God's Word. (Psa.119:130, Prov.6:23) Outwardly man had built great Cathedrals "which appear beautiful...but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." (Matt.23:27)  The House of God was now a natural building and not the people of God. (John.2:18-20, Matt.16:18; 23:36, 1Cor.3:16-17; 6:19, Eph.2:1-22)      Nevertheless, during the "dark ages" there were individuals "grinding in the (spiritual) prison  house" as Samson was. Just as the Philistines thought they had the upper hand, Satan thought he had finally crushed the Church. (Judges.16:21-23) HE WAS MISTAKEN!

The dark ages refer to the (approx) 500 years after the fall of the Roman Empire in the West. It was called the dark ages because we know relatively little about it. After Rome fell, technology reverted. People no longer built in stone but wood. Household vessels were mostly of wood not pottery. This all rotted in the ground so very little archeological evidence remains. There was very little writing outside of monasteries.

That why the term "dark ages" was coined". There is no spiritual significance to the term.


Next was John Wycliffe (1330 -1384 AD.)
An English theologian and religious reformer whose rejection of the biblical basis of papal power and dispute with the doctrine of the transubstantiation of the host anticipated the Protestant Reformation. He was the "morning star" of the Reformation," and recognized scripture as the final authority, not the Catholic Church. Wycliffe also translated the Bible from Latin to English.  The Church of the spiritual decline and "dark ages" response was, "Such a version would  also make it easier for him (Wycliffe) to propagate his teachings." The New American Bible, The English Versions of the Bible, p.1452

     Wycliffe declared
     "...that the people had the right to read the Bible and interpret it for  
                      themselves..."

Except that most people couldn't read. Those that did read Latin.
    
 
During the "dark ages" the Bible was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people. Only the "educated priests" interpreted the Bible for the people.

Actually there were many translations into the common tongues but the common people couldn't read and couldn't afford Bible. In Wycliffe's time they were hand transcribed and very expensive.

Do you know that the inventor of the printing press (Gutenberg) was a Catholic and the first thing he printed on his new invention was the Bible.



You can present logical reasons for this and that, but there is still one thing and that is the people were ignorant and the church taught only what they wanted to teach. They told them they were the successors of Peter by petrine succession. Yet there are no letters that truly back that up.They were the authority religiously and politically so they were not to be challenged. You say Gutenberg was a catholic. I would say that in that time most everyone was but not because they were truly biblically saved. Most were catholics because catholicsm was the relgion of the land. I wonder what Gutenberg thought after have truly read the scriptures.


Here is the real problem. The bishops of Rome were driven only by carnal ambitons. They wanted to establish themselves on an earthly throne. A tangible carnal authority who sits in  grandeur and emboldend by temporel powers. Its not hard for those who are truly born again to see this. They were in there hearts as God upon the earth sitting on an earthly throne and there tradition reins on.

It is enought that we know this because they only aregue on a carnal stage built of facts evidences and  on human wisdom and reasonings. 

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2012, 06:32:28 PM »
It was mostly that they were kept in the dark....

Dark Ages, meaning spiritually dark, no light from God's Word. (Psa.119:130, Prov.6:23) Outwardly man had built great Cathedrals "which appear beautiful...but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." (Matt.23:27)  The House of God was now a natural building and not the people of God. (John.2:18-20, Matt.16:18; 23:36, 1Cor.3:16-17; 6:19, Eph.2:1-22)      Nevertheless, during the "dark ages" there were individuals "grinding in the (spiritual) prison  house" as Samson was. Just as the Philistines thought they had the upper hand, Satan thought he had finally crushed the Church. (Judges.16:21-23) HE WAS MISTAKEN!

The dark ages refer to the (approx) 500 years after the fall of the Roman Empire in the West. It was called the dark ages because we know relatively little about it. After Rome fell, technology reverted. People no longer built in stone but wood. Household vessels were mostly of wood not pottery. This all rotted in the ground so very little archeological evidence remains. There was very little writing outside of monasteries.

That why the term "dark ages" was coined". There is no spiritual significance to the term.


Next was John Wycliffe (1330 -1384 AD.)
An English theologian and religious reformer whose rejection of the biblical basis of papal power and dispute with the doctrine of the transubstantiation of the host anticipated the Protestant Reformation. He was the "morning star" of the Reformation," and recognized scripture as the final authority, not the Catholic Church. Wycliffe also translated the Bible from Latin to English.  The Church of the spiritual decline and "dark ages" response was, "Such a version would  also make it easier for him (Wycliffe) to propagate his teachings." The New American Bible, The English Versions of the Bible, p.1452

     Wycliffe declared
     "...that the people had the right to read the Bible and interpret it for  
                      themselves..."

Except that most people couldn't read. Those that did read Latin.
    
 
During the "dark ages" the Bible was locked up in the Latin tongue which was unknown to the common people. Only the "educated priests" interpreted the Bible for the people.

Actually there were many translations into the common tongues but the common people couldn't read and couldn't afford Bible. In Wycliffe's time they were hand transcribed and very expensive.

Do you know that the inventor of the printing press (Gutenberg) was a Catholic and the first thing he printed on his new invention was the Bible.



You can present logical reasons for this and that, but there is still one thing and that is the people were ignorant and the church taught only what they wanted to teach. They told them they were the successors of Peter by petrine succession. Yet there are no letters that truly back that up.They were the authority religiously and politically so they were not to be challenged. You say Gutenberg was a catholic. I would say that in that time most everyone was but not because they were truly biblically saved. Most were catholics because catholicsm was the relgion of the land. I wonder what Gutenberg thought after have truly read the scriptures.


Here is the real problem. The bishops of Rome were driven only by carnal ambitons. They wanted to establish themselves on an earthly throne. A tangible carnal authority who sits in  grandeur and emboldend by temporel powers. Its not hard for those who are truly born again to see this. They were in there hearts as God upon the earth sitting on an earthly throne and there tradition reins on.

It is enought that we know this because they only aregue on a carnal stage built of facts evidences and  on human wisdom and reasonings. 


So, the "Bishops of Rome" were driven only by carnal ambitions? That statement is absurd! There have been many Bishops of Rome whose only thought was the promulgating the gospel of Jesus Christ, many holy men who have led Christ driven lives. They took seriously the concept of the apostolic succession and that they were his representatives here on earth. Were there Popes who did not live up to their position? Yes, and they like all men will have their judgement day. Your blanket condemnation is out of line my friend.

Offline grace

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Re: Dark Ages
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2012, 08:13:23 PM »
Who was  Desiderius Erasmus? (The King James Defended - Edward F. Hills, Chap.8, p.194-196)
His reputation.....
 Erasmus was a Scholar... The most famous scholar and author of his day
 Erasmus was a writer ...One of the most prolific writers of all time.
 Respected Worldwide...There was no man in all Europe better prepared than Erasmus for the work of editing the first Greek New Testament text which became known as the "Textus Receptus.
 Erasmus edited the works of Jerome...He translated, edited or annotated the works of the greatest names of the classical and patristic world. One of which was Jerome!

Erasmus knew ALL about  Jerome, and his text and rejected them!  He also knew about and published editions, "...the works of...Origen."(Compton Interactive Encyclopedia, 1996 "Erasmus")

Modern scholars today say, that Erasmus did not know about Origen, Jerome, Sinaiticus or Vaticanus when he placed the Word of God back into Greek. Erasmus did know about Jerome's text and rejected it, because it was corrupt!

What manuscripts did Erasmus use?