My answer was in the form of a question which of course you did not pick up on for lack of understanding I would presume, or you did and did not want say it.
You really only trying to derail the thread with a rabbit trail. This could be very long. How ever I have spoke the truth early on.
If asking for a plain answer to a question over and over again and not receiving it is "leading the thread down a rabbit trail", then if the fault is mine, I will stop trying to understand what you believe and simply ignore your ramblings.
You see, when trying to have a discussion with someone the most important thing is to NOT make assumptions about what another person means when he makes a statement, if there is any doubt. If clarification is sought, then proposing three possible meanings and essentially making someone guess which one you meant is not helpful.
I'm just trying to understand what you meant, and I want to hear it from your lips, so that I DON'T have to guess. That was the whole point of my asking.
That being said, we can finally further the conversation because you have finally given a simple answer. Know that in the future if you don't offer a clarification when one is sought, then I won't "derail" the thread at all. Rather than "taking it down a rabbit hole" I will just let it die and go on to grown-up conversations.
No there were three.. 2 are in the first sentence divided by the word or and the tird was in the 2nd. Does it mean the tangible earth, or the people that live on it?
Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it, (the world) which is in the within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it the spirit of the world.
We are not of the world because Jesus said so. He told the disciples they were not of the world. If the church sits as disciples then the church is not to the world either. So we must understand why the church can't be of the world. For one the world is under sin and sin is rebellion, so all that is of the world that rejects Christ is under sin, therefore all who have truly come to Christ cannot be of the world. Jesus said if any man loves his life in the world he will lose it but if any man will lose his life for His sake he shall gain it. True life is not in the world where sin and rebellion reins. We are of a better promise but only after He comes again. I pray that helps
Ok so what you are saying is that "the Church is not of the world" means that "of the world" "represent(s) a certain spirit that exists in it which is in the hearts of men that den(y) Christ".
So back, finally, to your original statement:
"The Church is not of the world and has no ties to it."
I agree that the Church does not have the spirit which is in the world. The Church has the Holy Spirit which affirms
Here is your error then, and that is assuming that in affirming Christ, that we do so with no connection to the world. That could not be farther from the truth.
13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world
, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world
but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
So the Church is not to be "of the world" which means that the people who are drawn to God are not to practice sinful things as the world does. They are to be sanctified and made Holy, hated by people who are "of the world". However the Church certainly is supposed to be "in the world" which means that they are in the world with the mission of Jesus, and that is to save souls, and in addition, we have the commands of Christ to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. etc. The Church has a mission in the world to bring good blessings from God even to those people who are "of the world". For God causes the rain to fall both on the just and the unjust.
Jesus Christ had a threefold ministry on Earth, and those roles are priest, prophet and king. If we look at what it means that Jesus is king, he is king over all creation and every creature is subject to him. Because one day everyone on earth and under the earth (in Hell) will bend their knees to Jesus. This is altogether different from Jesus' kingdom, which are those who have assented their will to Jesus to be their subjects, who have come into the Church which are the beloved adopted children of God, Christ's body.
So Jesus Christ is king of the universe, and as that kingly ministry exists and is shared with all members of his body (just as his prophetic and priestly ministries are, to different measures) so as part of the body of Christ we have the right to exhibit and practice that kingly ministry on Earth, even to those who don't believe in Jesus or reject him. Because one day all knees will bend to us. And we will be the ones to judge nations
. Not just persons, but nations
Thereby to exercise this kingly ministry we have the duty, according to our personal gifts, to take part in and influence the political process and enact and enforce just laws which flow from the divine moral law, which is a law binding on all. And we have a duty also to oppose unjust laws which violate the moral law of God which is higher than all man made laws.
This concept goes against the heart of everything you have against the Catholic Church, and for that I am sorry. But in doing so you are in grave error and have set yourself up against God himself by setting yourself up against his bride the Church. Even if you weren't a lone rogue tossing pebbles against the windows of the house of God but were rather a massive army storming down the last remaining fort, you would not be able to spread this heresy against the Catholic Church. Your cause is utterly futile because it goes up against Jesus Christ himself.
I can rest assured that you will be in a fury after reading my post. But consider that I am merely preaching the truth to you John the Baptist style which you seem to approve of, and so you should have your ears well attuned for it.