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Offline skeeter

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #35 on: Wed Jul 08, 2015 - 15:42:52 »
I'm not sure what your problem with the thread is now, Mike.  Haven't I dealt with the accusations you made?  The Church has, is, and always will be a staunch defender of the only true marriage which is only between one man and one woman.

In fact, this fact is tightly coupled to a root of our theology, which is that the relationship between a man an a woman mysteriously symbolizes the relationship between Jesus and His bride, the Church.

This is so fundamental in Catholic belief that if the Church were ever to accept so-called "same-sex" marriage, the beliefs would no longer resemble anything that is Catholic.  And so it will never happen.

As to whether the Pope needs to come out "John the Baptist style" and issue condemnations about what America is doing with regard to this issue is a matter of pure opinion.  Perhaps you would like it to be that way, but would America listen, and what really could they do?

What good would the Pope coming out and blatantly condemning so-called gay marriage do?  Faithful Catholics already hold that view.  Unfaithful Catholics and non-Catholics in general ignore the Pope.  Those who already believe in one man one woman marriage would cheer the pope's words while those who do not would jeer them.  And as for the majority of Americans who see the pope as nothing more than a man in a dress or perhaps a curiosity, they would simply turn a blind ear to his words or, being deaf already, wouldn't be morally impacted by the weight of such a delivery.

The way that we are going to be able to change this in America is for faithful Christians to return to penance and prayer. We will need that strengthening in faith that penance and prayer provide by the grace of God to overcome this and return to God's established order.   If there is one thing that I believe that the Pope should do is provide a catechesis on and a strong call for the return to penance and prayer.  And naturally prayer leads to action, and that could mean being active in government and other organizations which would have a political bent to them.  That is how stuff gets done in a democracy.  The counterattack needs to be both spiritual and tangible, but invisible and visible.  To change people and cultures, who are both spiritual and tangible, you need to do both.

Either way we are going to prepare for a persecution. America is going to endure a long trial of suffering that will certainly come from this chapter of the American experiment before it sees the error of its ways.  But for that to happen we are going to need some martyrs: witnesses for the truth of God, who are prepared to suffer and sometimes die for the cause of truth.

Putting so much emphasis on "What will the Pope do or say?" is very shortsighted and frankly, naive.  The wider world is already bathed in so many sins, of which one more country accepting so-called "gay marriage" is not even the greatest.  The pope is not a magician who can wave his pen and cause people everywhere to revile their sinful ways.

Perhaps, Mike, you could turn all that energy you have for attacking the Pope and the Church and turn it into making a real difference in the world by joining the cause of prayer and penance and action to overturn these sinful strongholds in this fallen culture. Otherwise you are just a distraction for Catholics in this forum away from the real work that needs to be done.
isn't that exactly what one would expect from JTB, Paul or Peter?  did they count up how many might listen before they went out teaching the truth given to them from Jesus?


don't RCs consider the pope to be their 'Christ on earth'?

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #35 on: Wed Jul 08, 2015 - 15:42:52 »

Offline Paulus

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #36 on: Wed Jul 08, 2015 - 15:49:13 »

don't RCs consider the pope to be their 'Christ on earth'?

Come on mate !

What a stupid question !

Why do you ask such rubbish when you know the answer ?

Get real !

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #36 on: Wed Jul 08, 2015 - 15:49:13 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #37 on: Wed Jul 08, 2015 - 16:27:01 »
I'm not sure what your problem with the thread is now, Mike.  Haven't I dealt with the accusations you made?  The Church has, is, and always will be a staunch defender of the only true marriage which is only between one man and one woman.

In fact, this fact is tightly coupled to a root of our theology, which is that the relationship between a man an a woman mysteriously symbolizes the relationship between Jesus and His bride, the Church.

This is so fundamental in Catholic belief that if the Church were ever to accept so-called "same-sex" marriage, the beliefs would no longer resemble anything that is Catholic.  And so it will never happen.

As to whether the Pope needs to come out "John the Baptist style" and issue condemnations about what America is doing with regard to this issue is a matter of pure opinion.  Perhaps you would like it to be that way, but would America listen, and what really could they do?

What good would the Pope coming out and blatantly condemning so-called gay marriage do?  Faithful Catholics already hold that view.  Unfaithful Catholics and non-Catholics in general ignore the Pope.  Those who already believe in one man one woman marriage would cheer the pope's words while those who do not would jeer them.  And as for the majority of Americans who see the pope as nothing more than a man in a dress or perhaps a curiosity, they would simply turn a blind ear to his words or, being deaf already, wouldn't be morally impacted by the weight of such a delivery.

The way that we are going to be able to change this in America is for faithful Christians to return to penance and prayer. We will need that strengthening in faith that penance and prayer provide by the grace of God to overcome this and return to God's established order.   If there is one thing that I believe that the Pope should do is provide a catechesis on and a strong call for the return to penance and prayer.  And naturally prayer leads to action, and that could mean being active in government and other organizations which would have a political bent to them.  That is how stuff gets done in a democracy.  The counterattack needs to be both spiritual and tangible, but invisible and visible.  To change people and cultures, who are both spiritual and tangible, you need to do both.

Either way we are going to prepare for a persecution. America is going to endure a long trial of suffering that will certainly come from this chapter of the American experiment before it sees the error of its ways.  But for that to happen we are going to need some martyrs: witnesses for the truth of God, who are prepared to suffer and sometimes die for the cause of truth.

Putting so much emphasis on "What will the Pope do or say?" is very shortsighted and frankly, naive.  The wider world is already bathed in so many sins, of which one more country accepting so-called "gay marriage" is not even the greatest.  The pope is not a magician who can wave his pen and cause people everywhere to revile their sinful ways.

Perhaps, Mike, you could turn all that energy you have for attacking the Pope and the Church and turn it into making a real difference in the world by joining the cause of prayer and penance and action to overturn these sinful strongholds in this fallen culture. Otherwise you are just a distraction for Catholics in this forum away from the real work that needs to be done.
isn't that exactly what one would expect from JTB, Paul or Peter?

It might be, but those guys lived 2000 years ago.  The Church is living and so it is able to adapt how it presents the truth in every age.  What worked at one time might be less effective in another.  That's why Christ's Church is living.

We aren't called to always imitate the 1st century church.  Look how they shared everything in common then.  Do we do that today?  No.  Do we preach in synagogues today?  No.  Do we pray at the temple today?  Even if there was a Jewish temple, we wouldn't go there to pray.

Quote
did they count up how many might listen before they went out teaching the truth given to them from Jesus?

The truth is being taught alright, as I have pointed out in this thread.  Nearly all of the Pope's general audiences since the end of last year have covered the issue of what constitutes the human family, and it doesn't include same-sex false "marriages".  As to how that truth is conveyed, that is what is in question here.  And if one style is not as effective as it used to be, then we should favor another style.  The important part is that people actually listen.

People come to this forum all the time thinking that they are John the Baptist.  People tune them out, or worse, call them "trolls".  John the Baptist's style preaching might make him a "troll" in an internet forum.  Hard to preach anything, much less the truth, when you can't even be "heard".

Offline Catholica

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #38 on: Wed Jul 08, 2015 - 16:29:26 »
Here is something else the Pope wrote this year, with reference to the OP on this topic, emphasis mine:

From:
https://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2015/january/documents/papa-francesco_20150116_srilanka-filippine-incontro-famiglie.html

APOSTOLIC JOURNEY OF HIS HOLINESS POPE FRANCIS
TO SRI LANKA AND THE PHILIPPINES
(12-19 JANUARY 2015)

MEETING WITH FAMILIES

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS POPE FRANCIS

Mall of Asia Arena, Manila
Friday, 16 January 2015
---snip---
The pressures on family life today are many. Here in the Philippines, countless families are still suffering from the effects of natural disasters. The economic situation has caused families to be separated by migration and the search for employment, and financial problems strain many households. While all too many people live in dire poverty, others are caught up in materialism and lifestyles which are destructive of family life and the most basic demands of Christian morality. These are forms of ideological colonization. The family is also threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage, by relativism, by the culture of the ephemeral, by a lack of openness to life.
---snip---

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #38 on: Wed Jul 08, 2015 - 16:29:26 »

Offline skeeter

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #39 on: Wed Jul 08, 2015 - 19:15:06 »
I'm not sure what your problem with the thread is now, Mike.  Haven't I dealt with the accusations you made?  The Church has, is, and always will be a staunch defender of the only true marriage which is only between one man and one woman.

In fact, this fact is tightly coupled to a root of our theology, which is that the relationship between a man an a woman mysteriously symbolizes the relationship between Jesus and His bride, the Church.

This is so fundamental in Catholic belief that if the Church were ever to accept so-called "same-sex" marriage, the beliefs would no longer resemble anything that is Catholic.  And so it will never happen.

As to whether the Pope needs to come out "John the Baptist style" and issue condemnations about what America is doing with regard to this issue is a matter of pure opinion.  Perhaps you would like it to be that way, but would America listen, and what really could they do?

What good would the Pope coming out and blatantly condemning so-called gay marriage do?  Faithful Catholics already hold that view.  Unfaithful Catholics and non-Catholics in general ignore the Pope.  Those who already believe in one man one woman marriage would cheer the pope's words while those who do not would jeer them.  And as for the majority of Americans who see the pope as nothing more than a man in a dress or perhaps a curiosity, they would simply turn a blind ear to his words or, being deaf already, wouldn't be morally impacted by the weight of such a delivery.

The way that we are going to be able to change this in America is for faithful Christians to return to penance and prayer. We will need that strengthening in faith that penance and prayer provide by the grace of God to overcome this and return to God's established order.   If there is one thing that I believe that the Pope should do is provide a catechesis on and a strong call for the return to penance and prayer.  And naturally prayer leads to action, and that could mean being active in government and other organizations which would have a political bent to them.  That is how stuff gets done in a democracy.  The counterattack needs to be both spiritual and tangible, but invisible and visible.  To change people and cultures, who are both spiritual and tangible, you need to do both.

Either way we are going to prepare for a persecution. America is going to endure a long trial of suffering that will certainly come from this chapter of the American experiment before it sees the error of its ways.  But for that to happen we are going to need some martyrs: witnesses for the truth of God, who are prepared to suffer and sometimes die for the cause of truth.

Putting so much emphasis on "What will the Pope do or say?" is very shortsighted and frankly, naive.  The wider world is already bathed in so many sins, of which one more country accepting so-called "gay marriage" is not even the greatest.  The pope is not a magician who can wave his pen and cause people everywhere to revile their sinful ways.

Perhaps, Mike, you could turn all that energy you have for attacking the Pope and the Church and turn it into making a real difference in the world by joining the cause of prayer and penance and action to overturn these sinful strongholds in this fallen culture. Otherwise you are just a distraction for Catholics in this forum away from the real work that needs to be done.
isn't that exactly what one would expect from JTB, Paul or Peter?

It might be, but those guys lived 2000 years ago.  The Church is living and so it is able to adapt how it presents the truth in every age.  What worked at one time might be less effective in another.  That's why Christ's Church is living.

 .  Look how they shared everything in common then.  Do we do that today?  No.  Do we preach in synagogues today?  No.  Do we pray at the temple today?  Even if there was a Jewish temple, we wouldn't go there to pray.

Quote
did they count up how many might listen before they went out teaching the truth given to them from Jesus?

The truth is being taught alright, as I have pointed out in this thread.  Nearly all of the Pope's general audiences since the end of last year have covered the issue of what constitutes the human family, and it doesn't include same-sex false "marriages".  As to how that truth is conveyed, that is what is in question here.  And if one style is not as effective as it used to be, then we should favor another style.  The important part is that people actually listen.

People come to this forum all the time thinking that they are John the Baptist. People tune them out, or worse, call them "trolls".  John the Baptist's style preaching might make him a "troll" in an internet forum.  Hard to preach anything, much less the truth, when you can't even be "heard".
I don't buy all the excuses.  they didn't have microphones, a mobile, a ring or flowing white robes back then either.  Maybe having those things choke up a person's voice.  They did get the message out tho even if they had to walk from place to place. 
They didn't have big individual church bldgs. back then.  They didn't have much money for things like that either.  They had another priority.

the forum trolls are nothing like JTB was.  At least back then he stood out.  the trolls are bunches for free.  They're everywhere and clones.

If the truth is being taught why do so many Catholics believe different things? I've heard that said for 4 decades now.  I was taught by nuns and priests - why don't they know what to teach? Who taught them?  Still hearing that said today does not give any confidence that it's true or being done today.

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #39 on: Wed Jul 08, 2015 - 19:15:06 »



Offline mclees8

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #40 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 08:48:23 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #41 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 09:33:12 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.

What exactly does "the Church is not of the world" mean, according to scripture?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #42 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 09:43:04 »
If the truth is being taught why do so many Catholics believe different things? I've heard that said for 4 decades now.  I was taught by nuns and priests - why don't they know what to teach? Who taught them?  Still hearing that said today does not give any confidence that it's true or being done today.

All Catholics may not believe everything that the Church teaches for a few reasons:

1. They might simply be ignorant of what the Church teaches.
2. They might defy what the Church teaches.
3. They may have been taught that the Church teaches something that it does not.

In any case, only #3 is what you seem to be concerned with in your post, so let's consider the reasons why someone might teach someone something that the Church doesn't teach.

1. They are ignorant of what the Church teaches so they teach what they themselves believe the Church teaches but are wrong.
2. They are defiant against Church teaching and desire to spread their heresy.

In any case, these reasons are all defects of a person or defects in a person's will.  Church teaching is constant, even though the people responsible for teaching it are imperfect or sometimes defiant.

The Church can do something about instructing the ignorant, but only the Holy Spirit can change a person from being defiant.  And the Church does take a great deal of time to make sure that it's teachers are not ignorant.

So exactly where is the Church at fault if some persons believe wrongly, either out of ignorance, or receiving incorrect teaching, whether from a defiant person or a person who failed to recognize his own ignorance?  And where does this come into the discussion we are having?

Catholic Church teaching regarding the nature of marriage (the topic that this thread is about) has been constant since the Church was born out of the blood of Jesus on Calvary, and will remain constant forever more until Jesus returns.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 12:08:12 by Catholica »

Offline mclees8

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #43 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 12:05:32 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.

What exactly does "the Church is not of the world" mean, according to scripture?

What does it meant to you?  What does your church say it is?  Does ti mean the tangible earth or the people that live on it? Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it the spirit of the world.  Which one is it?

What did Jesus mean when he said I pray for the disciples, I pray not for the world. Why would he say that? John 17:9
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 12:13:45 by mclees8 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #44 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 12:06:51 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.

What exactly does "the Church is not of the world" mean, according to scripture?

What does it meant to you?  What does your church say it is?  Does ti mean the tangible earth or the people that live on it? Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it he spirit of the world.

That is not an answer, Mike.  You said it, so you must have an idea of what it means.  I want to know what you think it means and not to try to interpret what you are saying for myself.

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #45 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 12:22:47 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.

What exactly does "the Church is not of the world" mean, according to scripture?

What does it meant to you?  What does your church say it is?  Does ti mean the tangible earth or the people that live on it? Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it he spirit of the world.

That is not an answer, Mike.  You said it, so you must have an idea of what it means.  I want to know what you think it means and not to try to interpret what you are saying for myself.

I as much answered already. Which do you think it is. You are a learned man who knows the word yet only according to what your church  teaches. So if my answer is contained in the three examples which one is it?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #46 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 12:30:53 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.

What exactly does "the Church is not of the world" mean, according to scripture?

What does it meant to you?  What does your church say it is?  Does ti mean the tangible earth or the people that live on it? Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it he spirit of the world.

That is not an answer, Mike.  You said it, so you must have an idea of what it means.  I want to know what you think it means and not to try to interpret what you are saying for myself.

I as much answered already. Which do you think it is. You are a learned man who knows the word yet only according to what your church  teaches. So if my answer is contained in the three examples which one is it?

I'm not in the mood for playing games.  Just tell me what you think it means and with some scripture to show why I should accept your opinion.

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #47 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 13:52:45 »
n

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #48 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 13:53:47 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.


What a silly statement. The church is of this world, placed here by God to teach us of Him and this includes the physical church which gives us a place to gather and worship.  It ties neatly into Gods plan to remind everyone of His presence here and in the hereafter. The church exists on both physical and spiritual levels and I don't think that this can be denied.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #49 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 14:17:31 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.

What exactly does "the Church is not of the world" mean, according to scripture?

What does it meant to you?  What does your church say it is?  Does ti mean the tangible earth or the people that live on it? Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it he spirit of the world.

That is not an answer, Mike.  You said it, so you must have an idea of what it means.  I want to know what you think it means and not to try to interpret what you are saying for myself.

I as much answered already. Which do you think it is. You are a learned man who knows the word yet only according to what your church  teaches. So if my answer is contained in the three examples which one is it?

I'm not in the mood for playing games.  Just tell me what you think it means and with some scripture to show why I should accept your opinion.

If you can't answer me I will not answer you.  I will ask once again why Did Jesus say I pray for the disciples I pray not for the world.  and as for Ladonia read John 17: 6-19 paying close attention to 14,15.16

The disciples were probably more than the apostles but mostly he was speaking to the 12 who are the very ones who established original church authority and whom you say your church is founded upon. So if he said they were not of the world then His church is also not of the world. So many more scripture can we pull up. If the world is such an issue against Christ church then explain what that means. They are not of this world.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 14:26:23 by mclees8 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #50 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 14:50:12 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.

What exactly does "the Church is not of the world" mean, according to scripture?

What does it meant to you?  What does your church say it is?  Does ti mean the tangible earth or the people that live on it? Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it he spirit of the world.

That is not an answer, Mike.  You said it, so you must have an idea of what it means.  I want to know what you think it means and not to try to interpret what you are saying for myself.

I as much answered already. Which do you think it is. You are a learned man who knows the word yet only according to what your church  teaches. So if my answer is contained in the three examples which one is it?

I'm not in the mood for playing games.  Just tell me what you think it means and with some scripture to show why I should accept your opinion.

If you can't answer me I will not answer you.  I will ask once again why Did Jesus say I pray for the disciples I pray not for the world.  and as for Ladonia read John 17: 6-19 paying close attention to 14,15.16

The disciples were probably more than the apostles but mostly he was speaking to the 12 who are the very ones who established original church authority and whom you say your church is founded upon. So if he said they were not of the world then His church is also not of the world. So many more scripture can we pull up. If the world is such an issue against Christ church then explain what that means. They are not of this world.

Well until you answer my question I'll be forced to believe that you are just using a lot of words that sound good to you but ultimately you don't understand. 

If you are going to make bold arguments, it's useful to be able to define the terms you are using.  Otherwise we may just talk past each other.  I hope you don't prefer talking past each other.  I really hate it, it's a waste of time.  That's why I asked you to define what you meant.  But you won't.  So this is a waste of my time.  As usual with you, unfortunately.

I keep making the mistake of responding to this Mike soapbox.  I don't know how many times I have to be retaught the lesson before I will learn.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #51 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 15:12:43 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.

What exactly does "the Church is not of the world" mean, according to scripture?

What does it meant to you?  What does your church say it is?  Does ti mean the tangible earth or the people that live on it? Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it he spirit of the world.

That is not an answer, Mike.  You said it, so you must have an idea of what it means.  I want to know what you think it means and not to try to interpret what you are saying for myself.

I as much answered already. Which do you think it is. You are a learned man who knows the word yet only according to what your church  teaches. So if my answer is contained in the three examples which one is it?

I'm not in the mood for playing games.  Just tell me what you think it means and with some scripture to show why I should accept your opinion.

If you can't answer me I will not answer you.  I will ask once again why Did Jesus say I pray for the disciples I pray not for the world.  and as for Ladonia read John 17: 6-19 paying close attention to 14,15.16

The disciples were probably more than the apostles but mostly he was speaking to the 12 who are the very ones who established original church authority and whom you say your church is founded upon. So if he said they were not of the world then His church is also not of the world. So many more scripture can we pull up. If the world is such an issue against Christ church then explain what that means. They are not of this world.

Well until you answer my question I'll be forced to believe that you are just using a lot of words that sound good to you but ultimately you don't understand. 

If you are going to make bold arguments, it's useful to be able to define the terms you are using.  Otherwise we may just talk past each other.  I hope you don't prefer talking past each other.  I really hate it, it's a waste of time.  That's why I asked you to define what you meant.  But you won't.  So this is a waste of my time.  As usual with you, unfortunately.

I keep making the mistake of responding to this Mike soapbox.  I don't know how many times I have to be retaught the lesson before I will learn.

I think you are more afraid of this than I am.  It is you who does not know how to answer me.  You see I already gave you my answer and definition.  You know which one it is but don't want to admit it.  I can tell but this must be seen on a spiritual level and not of carnal understanding.  You see we will never come to an answer that satisfies you because you only want to fight according to you  understand and teaching. I don't think you can tell me truly what Christ meant. Try my third answer.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 15:22:08 by mclees8 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #52 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 15:54:48 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.

What exactly does "the Church is not of the world" mean, according to scripture?

What does it meant to you?  What does your church say it is?  Does ti mean the tangible earth or the people that live on it? Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it he spirit of the world.

That is not an answer, Mike.  You said it, so you must have an idea of what it means.  I want to know what you think it means and not to try to interpret what you are saying for myself.

I as much answered already. Which do you think it is. You are a learned man who knows the word yet only according to what your church  teaches. So if my answer is contained in the three examples which one is it?

I'm not in the mood for playing games.  Just tell me what you think it means and with some scripture to show why I should accept your opinion.

If you can't answer me I will not answer you.  I will ask once again why Did Jesus say I pray for the disciples I pray not for the world.  and as for Ladonia read John 17: 6-19 paying close attention to 14,15.16

The disciples were probably more than the apostles but mostly he was speaking to the 12 who are the very ones who established original church authority and whom you say your church is founded upon. So if he said they were not of the world then His church is also not of the world. So many more scripture can we pull up. If the world is such an issue against Christ church then explain what that means. They are not of this world.

Well until you answer my question I'll be forced to believe that you are just using a lot of words that sound good to you but ultimately you don't understand. 

If you are going to make bold arguments, it's useful to be able to define the terms you are using.  Otherwise we may just talk past each other.  I hope you don't prefer talking past each other.  I really hate it, it's a waste of time.  That's why I asked you to define what you meant.  But you won't.  So this is a waste of my time.  As usual with you, unfortunately.

I keep making the mistake of responding to this Mike soapbox.  I don't know how many times I have to be retaught the lesson before I will learn.

I think you are more afraid of this than I am.  It is you who does not know how to answer me.  You see I already gave you my answer and definition.  You know which one it is but don't want to admit it.  I can tell but this must be seen on a spiritual level and not of carnal understanding.  You see we will never come to an answer that satisfies you because you only want to fight according to you  understand and teaching. I don't think you can tell me truly what Christ meant. Try my third answer.

Fear has nothing to do with this; and that is an incredibly ridiculous statement.

What does asking you questions about what you believe have to do with fear?  I am the one seeking to understand you. 

I see now that you are the one afraid.  You are afraid that you won't be able to produce a rational argument supporting what you believe, and you are projecting that fear onto me.  If you attempt to define the words that you put down on paper, then there is something tangible to analyze.  But as long as you avoid that, all there can be is shadow boxing.

You say "try my third answer" but I only see two options in your post.  Please, for the love of God, just write down what you mean by what you said.  This is infantile.  This is your last chance to give a plain answer to my simple request:

What exactly do you mean by "the Church is not of the world"?  Please support your answer using scripture, if possible.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #53 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 17:15:44 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.

What exactly does "the Church is not of the world" mean, according to scripture?

What does it meant to you?  What does your church say it is?  Does ti mean the tangible earth or the people that live on it? Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it he spirit of the world.

That is not an answer, Mike.  You said it, so you must have an idea of what it means.  I want to know what you think it means and not to try to interpret what you are saying for myself.

I as much answered already. Which do you think it is. You are a learned man who knows the word yet only according to what your church  teaches. So if my answer is contained in the three examples which one is it?

I'm not in the mood for playing games.  Just tell me what you think it means and with some scripture to show why I should accept your opinion.

If you can't answer me I will not answer you.  I will ask once again why Did Jesus say I pray for the disciples I pray not for the world.  and as for Ladonia read John 17: 6-19 paying close attention to 14,15.16

The disciples were probably more than the apostles but mostly he was speaking to the 12 who are the very ones who established original church authority and whom you say your church is founded upon. So if he said they were not of the world then His church is also not of the world. So many more scripture can we pull up. If the world is such an issue against Christ church then explain what that means. They are not of this world.

He was praying for the individual souls, people who are in the world, but yet not of it. Sure, we are his and our reward will be in the hereafter, not here. But He still left us a church for the reasons I explained before.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #54 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 18:26:07 »
No there were three..  2 are in the first sentence divided by the word or and the tird was in the 2nd.      Does it mean the tangible earth, or the people that live on it?
 Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it, (the world) which is in the within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it the spirit of the world.

My answer was in the form of a question which of course you did not pick up on for lack of understanding I would presume, or you did and did not want say it.

 We are not of the world because Jesus said  so. He told the disciples they were not of the world. If the church sits as disciples then the church is not to the world either. So we must understand why the church can't be of the world.   For one the world is under sin and sin is rebellion, so all that is of the world that rejects Christ is under sin, therefore all who have truly come to Christ cannot be of the world. Jesus said if any man loves his life in the world he will lose it but if any man will lose his life for His sake he shall gain it. True life is not in the world where sin and rebellion reins.    We are of a better promise but only after He comes again.   I pray that helps  You really only trying to derail the thread with a rabbit trail.   This could be very long.  How ever I have spoke the truth early on.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #55 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 18:51:34 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.

What exactly does "the Church is not of the world" mean, according to scripture?

What does it meant to you?  What does your church say it is?  Does ti mean the tangible earth or the people that live on it? Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it he spirit of the world.

That is not an answer, Mike.  You said it, so you must have an idea of what it means.  I want to know what you think it means and not to try to interpret what you are saying for myself.

I as much answered already. Which do you think it is. You are a learned man who knows the word yet only according to what your church  teaches. So if my answer is contained in the three examples which one is it?

I'm not in the mood for playing games.  Just tell me what you think it means and with some scripture to show why I should accept your opinion.

If you can't answer me I will not answer you.  I will ask once again why Did Jesus say I pray for the disciples I pray not for the world.  and as for Ladonia read John 17: 6-19 paying close attention to 14,15.16

The disciples were probably more than the apostles but mostly he was speaking to the 12 who are the very ones who established original church authority and whom you say your church is founded upon. So if he said they were not of the world then His church is also not of the world. So many more scripture can we pull up. If the world is such an issue against Christ church then explain what that means. They are not of this world.

He was praying for the individual souls, people who are in the world, but yet not of it. Sure, we are his and our reward will be in the hereafter, not here. But He still left us a church for the reasons I explained before.

Thank you Ladonia for that and yes we are a body of believers on the earth. A body of believers is the church and their hope is not of this world just as the disciples were not to the world. The church is not a force tot make the world better but an ark that has one compass that takes us to our true destination.  The has no connection with this world or its governments.   What we want is the best of both worlds  but Jesus said lay no treasure upon the earth but lay up your treasure in heaven. If any man loves his life in this world he will lose it but one who will  lose his life for my sake shall find it

We have no connection or business with Babylon.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 07:22:37 by mclees8 »

Offline skeeter

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #56 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 22:25:14 »
john 15
19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own.  Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.


1 John 4:5
They are of the world.  Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them



one world leader (former) came to Christ thru a visit with Billy Graham

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #57 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 22:26:12 »
What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.

What exactly does "the Church is not of the world" mean, according to scripture?

What does it meant to you?  What does your church say it is?  Does ti mean the tangible earth or the people that live on it? Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it he spirit of the world.

That is not an answer, Mike.  You said it, so you must have an idea of what it means.  I want to know what you think it means and not to try to interpret what you are saying for myself.

I as much answered already. Which do you think it is. You are a learned man who knows the word yet only according to what your church  teaches. So if my answer is contained in the three examples which one is it?

I'm not in the mood for playing games.  Just tell me what you think it means and with some scripture to show why I should accept your opinion.

If you can't answer me I will not answer you.  I will ask once again why Did Jesus say I pray for the disciples I pray not for the world.  and as for Ladonia read John 17: 6-19 paying close attention to 14,15.16

The disciples were probably more than the apostles but mostly he was speaking to the 12 who are the very ones who established original church authority and whom you say your church is founded upon. So if he said they were not of the world then His church is also not of the world. So many more scripture can we pull up. If the world is such an issue against Christ church then explain what that means. They are not of this world.

He was praying for the individual souls, people who are in the world, but yet not of it. Sure, we are his and our reward will be in the hereafter, not here. But He still left us a church for the reasons I explained before.

Ladonia,  thank you for that but sinners are being saved out of the world is a better way to put it I have to ask a another question now.  Since you know that the church is about saving souls.  When the pope, and that means other popes as well,  what do that discuss at the UN The evils of genocide, better trade relations and economics, more concern for The poor. Will the pope tell them that gay marriage is sin and they need to repent. Will the president and the pope discuss why he congratulated a gay rights fighter. then attend a Christian church to lead them in Amazing grace.  Does amazing grace mean embracing gay marriage. My guess is that the president did not learn much of Gods word or take it seriously. How ever the church and Babylon have nothing in common nor have I ever heard of a world leader coming to Christ as a result of a papal visit.

Why are you so hung up on the Pope, gay marriage, and other nations of the world? We have already told you how Pope Francis supports traditional marriage WITHOUT RESERVATION.  Good grief, give it a rest already!

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #58 on: Thu Jul 09, 2015 - 22:28:41 »
No there were three..  2 are in the first sentence divided by the word or and the tird was in the 2nd.      Does it mean the tangible earth, or the people that live on it?
 Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it, (the world) which is in the within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it the spirit of the world.

My answer was in the form of a question which of course you did not pick up on for lack of understanding I would presume, or you did and did not want say it.

 We are not of the world because Jesus said  so. He told the disciples they were not of the world. If the church sits as disciples then the church is not to the world either. So we must understand why the church can't be of the world.   For one the world is under sin and sin is rebellion, so all that is of the world that rejects Christ is under sin, therefore all who have truly come to Christ cannot be of the world. Jesus said if any man loves his life in the world he will lose it but if any man will lose his life for His sake he shall gain it. True life is not in the world where sin and rebellion reins.    We are of a better promise but only after He comes again.   I pray that helps  You really only trying to derail the thread with a rabbit trail.   This could be very long.  How ever I have spoke the truth early on.


My answer was my answer. Not good enough for you? My apologies.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #59 on: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 07:31:44 »
No there were three..  2 are in the first sentence divided by the word or and the tird was in the 2nd.      Does it mean the tangible earth, or the people that live on it?
 Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it, (the world) which is in the within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it the spirit of the world.

My answer was in the form of a question which of course you did not pick up on for lack of understanding I would presume, or you did and did not want say it.

 We are not of the world because Jesus said  so. He told the disciples they were not of the world. If the church sits as disciples then the church is not to the world either. So we must understand why the church can't be of the world.   For one the world is under sin and sin is rebellion, so all that is of the world that rejects Christ is under sin, therefore all who have truly come to Christ cannot be of the world. Jesus said if any man loves his life in the world he will lose it but if any man will lose his life for His sake he shall gain it. True life is not in the world where sin and rebellion reins.    We are of a better promise but only after He comes again.   I pray that helps  You really only trying to derail the thread with a rabbit trail.   This could be very long.  How ever I have spoke the truth early on.


My answer was my answer. Not good enough for you? My apologies.


Thank you Ladonia for that and yes we are a body of believers on the earth. A body of believers is the church and their hope is not of this world just as the disciples were not of the world. The church is not a force tot make the world better but an ark that has one compass that takes us to our true destination.  The church has no connection with this world or its governments.   What we want is the best of both worlds  but Jesus said lay no treasure upon the earth but lay up your treasure in heaven. If any man loves his life in this world he will lose it but one who will  lose his life for my sake shall find it

We have no connection or business with Babylon. Also no apologies

Offline Catholica

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #60 on: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 10:18:07 »
My answer was in the form of a question which of course you did not pick up on for lack of understanding I would presume, or you did and did not want say it.
...
You really only trying to derail the thread with a rabbit trail.   This could be very long.  How ever I have spoke the truth early on.
If asking for a plain answer to a question over and over again and not receiving it is "leading the thread down a rabbit trail", then if the fault is mine, I will stop trying to understand what you believe and simply ignore your ramblings. 

You see, when trying to have a discussion with someone the most important thing is to NOT make assumptions about what another person means when he makes a statement, if there is any doubt.  If clarification is sought, then proposing three possible meanings and essentially making someone guess which one you meant is not helpful. 

I'm just trying to understand what you meant, and I want to hear it from your lips, so that I DON'T have to guess.  That was the whole point of my asking.

That being said, we can finally further the conversation because you have finally given a simple answer.  Know that in the future if you don't offer a clarification when one is sought, then I won't "derail" the thread at all.  Rather than "taking it down a rabbit hole" I will just let it die and go on to grown-up conversations.

No there were three..  2 are in the first sentence divided by the word or and the tird was in the 2nd.      Does it mean the tangible earth, or the people that live on it?
 Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it, (the world) which is in the within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it the spirit of the world.
...
We are not of the world because Jesus said  so. He told the disciples they were not of the world. If the church sits as disciples then the church is not to the world either. So we must understand why the church can't be of the world.   For one the world is under sin and sin is rebellion, so all that is of the world that rejects Christ is under sin, therefore all who have truly come to Christ cannot be of the world. Jesus said if any man loves his life in the world he will lose it but if any man will lose his life for His sake he shall gain it. True life is not in the world where sin and rebellion reins.    We are of a better promise but only after He comes again.   I pray that helps

Ok so what you are saying is that "the Church is not of the world" means that "of the world" "represent(s) a certain spirit that exists in it which is in the hearts of men that den(y) Christ".

So back, finally, to your original statement:

"The Church is not of the world and has no ties to it."

I agree that the Church does not have the spirit which is in the world.  The Church has the Holy Spirit which affirms Christ.

Here is your error then, and that is assuming that in affirming Christ, that we do so with no connection to the world.  That could not be farther from the truth.

John 17
13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

So the Church is not to be "of the world" which means that the people who are drawn to God are not to practice sinful things as the world does.  They are to be sanctified and made Holy, hated by people who are "of the world".  However the Church certainly is supposed to be "in the world" which means that they are in the world with the mission of Jesus, and that is to save souls, and in addition, we have the commands of Christ to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. etc.  The Church has a mission in the world to bring good blessings from God even to those people who are "of the world".  For God causes the rain to fall both on the just and the unjust.

Jesus Christ had a threefold ministry on Earth, and those roles are priest, prophet and king.  If we look at what it means that Jesus is king, he is king over all creation and every creature is subject to him.  Because one day everyone on earth and under the earth (in Hell) will bend their knees to Jesus.  This is altogether different from Jesus' kingdom, which are those who have assented their will to Jesus to be their subjects, who have come into the Church which are the beloved adopted children of God, Christ's body. 

So Jesus Christ is king of the universe, and as that kingly ministry exists and is shared with all members of his body (just as his prophetic and priestly ministries are, to different measures) so as part of the body of Christ we have the right to exhibit and practice that kingly ministry on Earth, even to those who don't believe in Jesus or reject him.  Because one day all knees will bend to us.  And we will be the ones to judge nations.  Not just persons, but nations.

Thereby to exercise this kingly ministry we have the duty, according to our personal gifts, to take part in and influence the political process and enact and enforce just laws which flow from the divine moral law, which is a law binding on all.  And we have a duty also to oppose unjust laws which violate the moral law of God which is higher than all man made laws.

This concept goes against the heart of everything you have against the Catholic Church, and for that I am sorry.  But in doing so you are in grave error and have set yourself up against God himself by setting yourself up against his bride the Church.  Even if you weren't a lone rogue tossing pebbles against the windows of the house of God but were rather a massive army storming down the last remaining fort, you would not be able to spread this heresy against the Catholic Church.  Your cause is utterly futile because it goes up against Jesus Christ himself.

I can rest assured that you will be in a fury after reading my post.  But consider that I am merely preaching the truth to you John the Baptist style which you seem to approve of, and so you should have your ears well attuned for it.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #61 on: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 10:56:25 »
If anyone is curious about delving deeper into our role as "king" which reflects Jesus' role as "king", the following sermon is an excellent resource.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140310-Part-4-Christ-the-King-and-His-Kingdom.html

If you want to hear the whole series, which is quite excellent.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-1-Brawny-Atlas-versus-the-Infant-of-Prague.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-2-The-Antichrist-The-Unjust-Usurper.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-3-The-Day-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140310-Part-4-Christ-the-King-and-His-Kingdom.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140311-Part-5-The-Interior-Castle-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140312-Part-6-The-Enthronement-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140312-Part-7-The-Cross-The-Banner-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140313-Part-8-The-Queen-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140313-Part-9-The-King-Conquors-Through-the-Holy-Mass.html

1 Cor. 15
24 Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue.
25 For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he hath put all things under his feet. And whereas he saith,
27 All things are put under him; undoubtedly, he is excepted, who put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #62 on: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 11:16:10 »
My answer was in the form of a question which of course you did not pick up on for lack of understanding I would presume, or you did and did not want say it.
...
You really only trying to derail the thread with a rabbit trail.   This could be very long.  How ever I have spoke the truth early on.
If asking for a plain answer to a question over and over again and not receiving it is "leading the thread down a rabbit trail", then if the fault is mine, I will stop trying to understand what you believe and simply ignore your ramblings. 

You see, when trying to have a discussion with someone the most important thing is to NOT make assumptions about what another person means when he makes a statement, if there is any doubt.  If clarification is sought, then proposing three possible meanings and essentially making someone guess which one you meant is not helpful. 

I'm just trying to understand what you meant, and I want to hear it from your lips, so that I DON'T have to guess.  That was the whole point of my asking.

That being said, we can finally further the conversation because you have finally given a simple answer.  Know that in the future if you don't offer a clarification when one is sought, then I won't "derail" the thread at all.  Rather than "taking it down a rabbit hole" I will just let it die and go on to grown-up conversations.

No there were three..  2 are in the first sentence divided by the word or and the tird was in the 2nd.      Does it mean the tangible earth, or the people that live on it?
 Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it, (the world) which is in the within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it the spirit of the world.
...
We are not of the world because Jesus said  so. He told the disciples they were not of the world. If the church sits as disciples then the church is not to the world either. So we must understand why the church can't be of the world.   For one the world is under sin and sin is rebellion, so all that is of the world that rejects Christ is under sin, therefore all who have truly come to Christ cannot be of the world. Jesus said if any man loves his life in the world he will lose it but if any man will lose his life for His sake he shall gain it. True life is not in the world where sin and rebellion reins.    We are of a better promise but only after He comes again.   I pray that helps

Ok so what you are saying is that "the Church is not of the world" means that "of the world" "represent(s) a certain spirit that exists in it which is in the hearts of men that den(y) Christ".

So back, finally, to your original statement:

"The Church is not of the world and has no ties to it."

I agree that the Church does not have the spirit which is in the world.  The Church has the Holy Spirit which affirms Christ.

Here is your error then, and that is assuming that in affirming Christ, that we do so with no connection to the world.  That could not be farther from the truth.

John 17
13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

So the Church is not to be "of the world" which means that the people who are drawn to God are not to practice sinful things as the world does.  They are to be sanctified and made Holy, hated by people who are "of the world".  However the Church certainly is supposed to be "in the world" which means that they are in the world with the mission of Jesus, and that is to save souls, and in addition, we have the commands of Christ to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. etc.  The Church has a mission in the world to bring good blessings from God even to those people who are "of the world".  For God causes the rain to fall both on the just and the unjust.

Jesus Christ had a threefold ministry on Earth, and those roles are priest, prophet and king.  If we look at what it means that Jesus is king, he is king over all creation and every creature is subject to him.  Because one day everyone on earth and under the earth (in Hell) will bend their knees to Jesus.  This is altogether different from Jesus' kingdom, which are those who have assented their will to Jesus to be their subjects, who have come into the Church which are the beloved adopted children of God, Christ's body. 

So Jesus Christ is king of the universe, and as that kingly ministry exists and is shared with all members of his body (just as his prophetic and priestly ministries are, to different measures) so as part of the body of Christ we have the right to exhibit and practice that kingly ministry on Earth, even to those who don't believe in Jesus or reject him.  Because one day all knees will bend to us.  And we will be the ones to judge nations.  Not just persons, but nations.

Thereby to exercise this kingly ministry we have the duty, according to our personal gifts, to take part in and influence the political process and enact and enforce just laws which flow from the divine moral law, which is a law binding on all.  And we have a duty also to oppose unjust laws which violate the moral law of God which is higher than all man made laws.

This concept goes against the heart of everything you have against the Catholic Church, and for that I am sorry.  But in doing so you are in grave error and have set yourself up against God himself by setting yourself up against his bride the Church.  Even if you weren't a lone rogue tossing pebbles against the windows of the house of God but were rather a massive army storming down the last remaining fort, you would not be able to spread this heresy against the Catholic Church.  Your cause is utterly futile because it goes up against Jesus Christ himself.

I can rest assured that you will be in a fury after reading my post.  But consider that I am merely preaching the truth to you John the Baptist style which you seem to approve of, and so you should have your ears well attuned for it.

I may answer more but for the moment answer me one question. Whom did Jesus say was the price of this present world.  I see what you are trying to make the word say.  I have an article from my study Bible that says things much better than I do. I will have to copy it again but I thought it was already saved in my computer but I am not finding it now. If I have to write it again I will . Who did Jesus say was prince of this present world.?

Also you might re read Rev 18.  We can discus and define that also. Who is the prince of all we see there?

What was the mission of the church that Jesus spoke tot the disciples. Please don't add to it the way you have.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #63 on: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 11:26:46 »
If anyone is curious about delving deeper into our role as "king" which reflects Jesus' role as "king", the following sermon is an excellent resource.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140310-Part-4-Christ-the-King-and-His-Kingdom.html

If you want to hear the whole series, which is quite excellent.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-1-Brawny-Atlas-versus-the-Infant-of-Prague.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-2-The-Antichrist-The-Unjust-Usurper.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-3-The-Day-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140310-Part-4-Christ-the-King-and-His-Kingdom.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140311-Part-5-The-Interior-Castle-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140312-Part-6-The-Enthronement-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140312-Part-7-The-Cross-The-Banner-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140313-Part-8-The-Queen-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140313-Part-9-The-King-Conquors-Through-the-Holy-Mass.html

1 Cor. 15
24 Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue.
25 For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he hath put all things under his feet. And whereas he saith,
27 All things are put under him; undoubtedly, he is excepted, who put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


 Again I have one question. Where does Christ rein from. Where is His throne?  Remember what Steven said.  The earth is His footstool what building shall you make for Him.   I will look over some of these sermons.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #64 on: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 11:31:44 »
My answer was in the form of a question which of course you did not pick up on for lack of understanding I would presume, or you did and did not want say it.
...
You really only trying to derail the thread with a rabbit trail.   This could be very long.  How ever I have spoke the truth early on.
If asking for a plain answer to a question over and over again and not receiving it is "leading the thread down a rabbit trail", then if the fault is mine, I will stop trying to understand what you believe and simply ignore your ramblings. 

You see, when trying to have a discussion with someone the most important thing is to NOT make assumptions about what another person means when he makes a statement, if there is any doubt.  If clarification is sought, then proposing three possible meanings and essentially making someone guess which one you meant is not helpful. 

I'm just trying to understand what you meant, and I want to hear it from your lips, so that I DON'T have to guess.  That was the whole point of my asking.

That being said, we can finally further the conversation because you have finally given a simple answer.  Know that in the future if you don't offer a clarification when one is sought, then I won't "derail" the thread at all.  Rather than "taking it down a rabbit hole" I will just let it die and go on to grown-up conversations.

No there were three..  2 are in the first sentence divided by the word or and the tird was in the 2nd.      Does it mean the tangible earth, or the people that live on it?
 Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it, (the world) which is in the within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it the spirit of the world.
...
We are not of the world because Jesus said  so. He told the disciples they were not of the world. If the church sits as disciples then the church is not to the world either. So we must understand why the church can't be of the world.   For one the world is under sin and sin is rebellion, so all that is of the world that rejects Christ is under sin, therefore all who have truly come to Christ cannot be of the world. Jesus said if any man loves his life in the world he will lose it but if any man will lose his life for His sake he shall gain it. True life is not in the world where sin and rebellion reins.    We are of a better promise but only after He comes again.   I pray that helps

Ok so what you are saying is that "the Church is not of the world" means that "of the world" "represent(s) a certain spirit that exists in it which is in the hearts of men that den(y) Christ".

So back, finally, to your original statement:

"The Church is not of the world and has no ties to it."

I agree that the Church does not have the spirit which is in the world.  The Church has the Holy Spirit which affirms Christ.

Here is your error then, and that is assuming that in affirming Christ, that we do so with no connection to the world.  That could not be farther from the truth.

John 17
13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

So the Church is not to be "of the world" which means that the people who are drawn to God are not to practice sinful things as the world does.  They are to be sanctified and made Holy, hated by people who are "of the world".  However the Church certainly is supposed to be "in the world" which means that they are in the world with the mission of Jesus, and that is to save souls, and in addition, we have the commands of Christ to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. etc.  The Church has a mission in the world to bring good blessings from God even to those people who are "of the world".  For God causes the rain to fall both on the just and the unjust.

Jesus Christ had a threefold ministry on Earth, and those roles are priest, prophet and king.  If we look at what it means that Jesus is king, he is king over all creation and every creature is subject to him.  Because one day everyone on earth and under the earth (in Hell) will bend their knees to Jesus.  This is altogether different from Jesus' kingdom, which are those who have assented their will to Jesus to be their subjects, who have come into the Church which are the beloved adopted children of God, Christ's body. 

So Jesus Christ is king of the universe, and as that kingly ministry exists and is shared with all members of his body (just as his prophetic and priestly ministries are, to different measures) so as part of the body of Christ we have the right to exhibit and practice that kingly ministry on Earth, even to those who don't believe in Jesus or reject him.  Because one day all knees will bend to us.  And we will be the ones to judge nations.  Not just persons, but nations.

Thereby to exercise this kingly ministry we have the duty, according to our personal gifts, to take part in and influence the political process and enact and enforce just laws which flow from the divine moral law, which is a law binding on all.  And we have a duty also to oppose unjust laws which violate the moral law of God which is higher than all man made laws.

This concept goes against the heart of everything you have against the Catholic Church, and for that I am sorry.  But in doing so you are in grave error and have set yourself up against God himself by setting yourself up against his bride the Church.  Even if you weren't a lone rogue tossing pebbles against the windows of the house of God but were rather a massive army storming down the last remaining fort, you would not be able to spread this heresy against the Catholic Church.  Your cause is utterly futile because it goes up against Jesus Christ himself.

I can rest assured that you will be in a fury after reading my post.  But consider that I am merely preaching the truth to you John the Baptist style which you seem to approve of, and so you should have your ears well attuned for it.

I may answer more but for the moment answer me one question. Whom did Jesus say was the price of this present world.  I see what you are trying to make the word say.  I have an article from my study Bible that says things much better than I do. I will have to copy it again but I thought it was already saved in my computer but I am not finding it now. If I have to write it again I will . Who did Jesus say was prince of this present world.?

Also you might re read Rev 18.  We can discus and define that also. Who is the prince of all we see there?

What was the mission of the church that Jesus spoke tot the disciples. Please don't add to it the way you have.

Satan is the prince of the world.  Does that mean that he has the right to reign over the king of the universe?  No.  Being the prince of the world doesn't mean that governments are his to direct.  Their authority was given to them by God, says scripture.  1 Tim 4 I believe.  Satan is the prince of the fallen and unredeemed people. 

Take heart, Jesus has overcome this world and is sitting on his throne in heaven, waiting for his enemies to be placed under his feet.  In a sense we, his body, are at war with those enemies and are placing them under his feet.

The mission of the disciples was to overcome the world in Jesus' name, through bringing the kingdom right here and now.  That is how they are instructed to pray.  And that is what we do.  Don't subtract from that mission Mike, don't over-spiritualize it.  The mission is both spiritual and material, just as Jesus himself was and is spiritual and material.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #65 on: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 11:33:33 »
If anyone is curious about delving deeper into our role as "king" which reflects Jesus' role as "king", the following sermon is an excellent resource.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140310-Part-4-Christ-the-King-and-His-Kingdom.html

If you want to hear the whole series, which is quite excellent.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-1-Brawny-Atlas-versus-the-Infant-of-Prague.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-2-The-Antichrist-The-Unjust-Usurper.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-3-The-Day-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140310-Part-4-Christ-the-King-and-His-Kingdom.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140311-Part-5-The-Interior-Castle-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140312-Part-6-The-Enthronement-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140312-Part-7-The-Cross-The-Banner-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140313-Part-8-The-Queen-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140313-Part-9-The-King-Conquors-Through-the-Holy-Mass.html

1 Cor. 15
24 Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue.
25 For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he hath put all things under his feet. And whereas he saith,
27 All things are put under him; undoubtedly, he is excepted, who put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


 Again I have one question. Where does Christ rein from. Where is His throne?  Remember what Steven said.  The earth is His footstool what building shall you make for Him.   I will look over some of these sermons.


Christ is reigning from heaven and in our hearts.  His physical heart still beats with love for all of creation and wills all to be saved, though some reject him.  Christ's reign is both eternal and temporal, both spiritual and material, on earth, as it is in heaven.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #66 on: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 11:52:24 »


Quote from: mclees8 on Yesterday at 01:17:31 PM



Quote from: Catholica on Yesterday at 11:30:53 AM



Quote from: mclees8 on Yesterday at 11:22:47 AM



Quote from: Catholica on Yesterday at 11:06:51 AM



Quote from: mclees8 on Yesterday at 11:05:32 AM



Quote from: Catholica on Yesterday at 08:33:12 AM



Quote from: mclees8 on Yesterday at 07:48:23 AM

What is happening is that they ( government and lobbies ) are trying to stuff immorality down our throats to except it. This must not happen for the church. The thing the catholic church does not understand and you are not understanding from me is there can be no political ties to a world that is becoming more and more wicked and sees not its own wickedness. We are not about cleaning up the world but are about cleaning up the soul. We are about representing Christ not about representing the moral standards for the world which is the popes position when he visits presidents and addresses UN leaders to be their council or what ever.   The world as it is will always be what it is until Jesus comes. The world is never going to be that glorious church without spot or wrinkle. The church is not of the world and has no ties to it.  In the days ahead the true bride will face more and more the pressure of compromise. Blessed will be those who endure to the end.




What exactly does "the Church is not of the world" mean, according to scripture?



What does it meant to you?  What does your church say it is?  Does ti mean the tangible earth or the people that live on it? Does it represent a certain spirit that exists in it within the hearts of men that denies Christ? We can call it he spirit of the world.



That is not an answer, Mike.  You said it, so you must have an idea of what it means.  I want to know what you think it means and not to try to interpret what you are saying for myself.



I as much answered already. Which do you think it is. You are a learned man who knows the word yet only according to what your church  teaches. So if my answer is contained in the three examples which one is it?



I'm not in the mood for playing games.  Just tell me what you think it means and with some scripture to show why I should accept your opinion.



If you can't answer me I will not answer you.  I will ask once again why Did Jesus say I pray for the disciples I pray not for the world.  and as for Ladonia read John 17: 6-19 paying close attention to 14,15.16

The disciples were probably more than the apostles but mostly he was speaking to the 12 who are the very ones who established original church authority and whom you say your church is founded upon. So if he said they were not of the world then His church is also not of the world. So many more scripture can we pull up. If the world is such an issue against Christ church then explain what that means. They are not of this world.



He was praying for the individual souls, people who are in the world, but yet not of it. Sure, we are his and our reward will be in the hereafter, not here. But He still left us a church for the reasons I explained before.

Just putting this reply in its intended order with all the words originally used.

Thank you Ladonia for that and yes we are a body of believers on the earth. A body of believers is the church and their hope is not of this world just as the disciples were not to the world. The church is not a force tot make the world better but an ark that has one compass that takes us to our true destination.  The has no connection with this world or its governments.   What we want is the best of both worlds  but Jesus said lay no treasure upon the earth but lay up your treasure in heaven. If any man loves his life in this world he will lose it but one who will  lose his life for my sake shall find it

We have no connection or business with Babylon.   Also no apologies
[/u]

Offline mclees8

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #67 on: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 12:03:31 »
If anyone is curious about delving deeper into our role as "king" which reflects Jesus' role as "king", the following sermon is an excellent resource.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140310-Part-4-Christ-the-King-and-His-Kingdom.html

If you want to hear the whole series, which is quite excellent.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-1-Brawny-Atlas-versus-the-Infant-of-Prague.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-2-The-Antichrist-The-Unjust-Usurper.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-3-The-Day-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140310-Part-4-Christ-the-King-and-His-Kingdom.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140311-Part-5-The-Interior-Castle-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140312-Part-6-The-Enthronement-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140312-Part-7-The-Cross-The-Banner-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140313-Part-8-The-Queen-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140313-Part-9-The-King-Conquors-Through-the-Holy-Mass.html

1 Cor. 15
24 Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue.
25 For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he hath put all things under his feet. And whereas he saith,
27 All things are put under him; undoubtedly, he is excepted, who put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


 Again I have one question. Where does Christ rein from. Where is His throne?  Remember what Steven said.  The earth is His footstool what building shall you make for Him.   I will look over some of these sermons.


Christ is reigning from heaven and in our hearts.  His physical heart still beats with love for all of creation and wills all to be saved, though some reject him.  Christ's reign is both eternal and temporal, both spiritual and material, on earth, as it is in heaven.


If it is as you just said then why do we still have Roe verses Wade, and the pope veto gay marriage overruling ScOTUS.   God is not ruling over our nations or their laws.  He could but He will not. The question is why not?  This comes from the fall of man. 
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 12:40:50 by mclees8 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #68 on: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 12:26:50 »
If anyone is curious about delving deeper into our role as "king" which reflects Jesus' role as "king", the following sermon is an excellent resource.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140310-Part-4-Christ-the-King-and-His-Kingdom.html

If you want to hear the whole series, which is quite excellent.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-1-Brawny-Atlas-versus-the-Infant-of-Prague.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-2-The-Antichrist-The-Unjust-Usurper.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-3-The-Day-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140310-Part-4-Christ-the-King-and-His-Kingdom.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140311-Part-5-The-Interior-Castle-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140312-Part-6-The-Enthronement-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140312-Part-7-The-Cross-The-Banner-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140313-Part-8-The-Queen-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140313-Part-9-The-King-Conquors-Through-the-Holy-Mass.html

1 Cor. 15
24 Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue.
25 For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he hath put all things under his feet. And whereas he saith,
27 All things are put under him; undoubtedly, he is excepted, who put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


 Again I have one question. Where does Christ rein from. Where is His throne?  Remember what Steven said.  The earth is His footstool what building shall you make for Him.   I will look over some of these sermons.


Christ is reigning from heaven and in our hearts.  His physical heart still beats with love for all of creation and wills all to be saved, though some reject him.  Christ's reign is both eternal and temporal, both spiritual and material, on earth, as it is in heaven.


If it is as you just said then why do we still have Roe verses Wade, and the pope veto gay marriage overruling SOTUS.   God is not ruling over our nations or their laws.  He could but He will not. The question is why not?  This comes from the fall of man.


His is not because of people like you who don't know (or oppose) that it is part of the mission of the Church to bring Christ's reign, even to government.  That's why.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Does the pope descern the times
« Reply #69 on: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 12:45:54 »
If anyone is curious about delving deeper into our role as "king" which reflects Jesus' role as "king", the following sermon is an excellent resource.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140310-Part-4-Christ-the-King-and-His-Kingdom.html

If you want to hear the whole series, which is quite excellent.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-1-Brawny-Atlas-versus-the-Infant-of-Prague.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-2-The-Antichrist-The-Unjust-Usurper.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140309-Part-3-The-Day-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140310-Part-4-Christ-the-King-and-His-Kingdom.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140311-Part-5-The-Interior-Castle-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140312-Part-6-The-Enthronement-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140312-Part-7-The-Cross-The-Banner-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140313-Part-8-The-Queen-of-the-King.html
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20140313-Part-9-The-King-Conquors-Through-the-Holy-Mass.html

1 Cor. 15
24 Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue.
25 For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he hath put all things under his feet. And whereas he saith,
27 All things are put under him; undoubtedly, he is excepted, who put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


 Again I have one question. Where does Christ rein from. Where is His throne?  Remember what Steven said.  The earth is His footstool what building shall you make for Him.   I will look over some of these sermons.


Christ is reigning from heaven and in our hearts.  His physical heart still beats with love for all of creation and wills all to be saved, though some reject him.  Christ's reign is both eternal and temporal, both spiritual and material, on earth, as it is in heaven.


If it is as you just said then why do we still have Roe verses Wade, and the pope veto gay marriage overruling SOTUS.   God is not ruling over our nations or their laws.  He could but He will not. The question is why not?  This comes from the fall of man.


His is not because of people like you who don't know (or oppose) that it is part of the mission of the Church to bring Christ's reign, even to government.  That's why.


I thought you knew your Bible. That is not in our Knew testament .   If that were true there would be no Judgment day  ::doh::  I get it you are just funning right  ::pondering::
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 10, 2015 - 12:48:04 by mclees8 »