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Author Topic: How to get into heaven?  (Read 4756 times)

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Offline Catholica

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #140 on: Thu Oct 29, 2015 - 14:32:23 »
First off, don't be ridiculous. We are not talking about one being a Wiccan or a Muslim, but being a Christian and I know you know there is a big difference.
It is a sad thing that neither his mother, father, or him for that matter practiced their Christian faith, a sad thing indeed. We disagree, but the fact remains that he was indeed baptized as an infant and the spiritual covenant with God was established and there was no need for another.
You're the one being ridiculous.  You know nothing except what the RCC teaches / tells you to believe.  It's not what's in the Bible.

His parents were Catholic - and that's a big difference!   no one can put us into a covenant relationship with God except us.  That is why in the Bible it continually says we must believe first.

What you have written regarding covenant relationship with God is not consistent with the Biblical story.  Circumcision is how males (for example) entered into covenant with God in the OT, and it was required to be performed on all males on the 8th day of their life in the OT.  Before they were capable of belief.  Performed by the father, or the mother in dire circumstances.  Jewesses were considered born in covenant with God.  Before they were capable of belief.

While circumcision was both the sign of the covenant and it's sealing in the OT, baptism is the fulfillment of that means of entering into covenant with God in the NT and applies for all people, male and female, regardless of their background, whether it be Jew or Gentile.  And the only people who fall under God's promises of salvation are those who are in covenant with God. 

Thereby it would have been unconscionable if, in the early Church, baptism was only provided for adults.  That would have left children out of covenant with God.  No Jew would have stood for that or accepted it.  And they didn't, because there was infant and child baptism in the early Church.

Circumcision has nothing to do with salvation. Baptism has everything to do with salvation. It is incorrect to compare circumcision to baptism.

Scripture compares circumcision and baptism very clearly.

Colossians 2
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Notice v28 where he mentions "male and female" and "slaves".  Under the Old Covenant only male Jews and male slaves owned by Jews were circumcised thereby receiving the sign of the covenant and becoming under covenant.  In the New Covenant now all receive the sign rather through baptism, and so there is no longer a distinction between Jews (circumcised) and Gentiles (not covenantally circumcised), between free Jews (under normal provision in the covenant) and slaves (under covenant but had special exceptions to the law applied) and male (circumcised, visible sign) and female (not circumcised, no visible sign).

This passage is Colossians 3 is directly showing the transition from circumcision to baptism as sign and entry into a new Covenant with God, that is, how people become "heirs according to the promise" which is a promise that only applies to those who are in covenant with God.

Catholica, you have an excellent view into the New Covenant.

Just as circumcision had no salvation, water baptism has no salvation. Salvation is a condition of the heart, it comes from within man, and has nothing to do with the outside of man such as ceremonies and sacrifices.

Circumcision was the identification of faith into the Old, just as water baptism is the identification of faith into the New. Both are a type or outward appeal to the inward condition.

Listen to what Paul says in Rom. 10:9-10 concerning this very thing.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Salvation has nothing to do with the outward man, it must come from the heart. Water baptism is the outward faith from the heart. It represents your faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is the Gospel that saves us. It is the shadow of your inward heart condition confessed through the actions of water baptism.

In water baptsim you are already dead to sin by your faith response from the heart. You are lowered, immersed into the water which represents being buried with Christ, you are raised out of the water as Christ was raised from the dead. It is not your salvation, it is an outward  confession of the salvation that has already taken place in the heart. As circumcision in the Old, it is your identification with Christ Jesus.


How is it that you can see the connection with the old and new and not see this?
Circumcision was not an simply an identification of faith in the old.  It was actually an entrance into the old covenant.  See Genesis 17.

Genesis 17
Quote
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

There are no promises that God has made that He is bound to honor with those who are not in covenant with him. If a person is not in covenant with God, then none of the salvific promises apply to him.  They may apply to someone else, but not to someone who is not in covenant with God.

Covenants themselves aren't a guarantee of salvation.  After entering a covenant, then it is up to the parties to keep that covenant.  How the new and old covenants are kept is different, that is true.   And ultimately both are about the heart.  But while the heart itself may be what God judges, those who are Christian receive the additional help from God that he has offered those who are in covenant with him, to those people who have become his children.  They rightly claim Christian hope in Christ's work on the cross, that it might be applied to them that they may ultimately enter into beatitude. 

The parallel between circumcision and baptism exists between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant: just as Circumcision put the male Jew or his male slave in covenant with God in the Old Covenant, baptism puts all persons who receive it in Covenant with God under the New Covenant.  Without circumcision in the Old, men were cut off from their nation and did not inherit the promises of God.  Without baptism in the New we are not heirs to the kingdom of heaven, nor can we claim the right to receive any of the promises of the New Covenant made by God, which include all promises about salvation.


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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #140 on: Thu Oct 29, 2015 - 14:32:23 »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #141 on: Thu Oct 29, 2015 - 14:57:47 »
First off, don't be ridiculous. We are not talking about one being a Wiccan or a Muslim, but being a Christian and I know you know there is a big difference.
It is a sad thing that neither his mother, father, or him for that matter practiced their Christian faith, a sad thing indeed. We disagree, but the fact remains that he was indeed baptized as an infant and the spiritual covenant with God was established and there was no need for another.
You're the one being ridiculous.  You know nothing except what the RCC teaches / tells you to believe.  It's not what's in the Bible.

His parents were Catholic - and that's a big difference!   no one can put us into a covenant relationship with God except us.  That is why in the Bible it continually says we must believe first.

What you have written regarding covenant relationship with God is not consistent with the Biblical story.  Circumcision is how males (for example) entered into covenant with God in the OT, and it was required to be performed on all males on the 8th day of their life in the OT.  Before they were capable of belief.  Performed by the father, or the mother in dire circumstances.  Jewesses were considered born in covenant with God.  Before they were capable of belief.

While circumcision was both the sign of the covenant and it's sealing in the OT, baptism is the fulfillment of that means of entering into covenant with God in the NT and applies for all people, male and female, regardless of their background, whether it be Jew or Gentile.  And the only people who fall under God's promises of salvation are those who are in covenant with God. 

Thereby it would have been unconscionable if, in the early Church, baptism was only provided for adults.  That would have left children out of covenant with God.  No Jew would have stood for that or accepted it.  And they didn't, because there was infant and child baptism in the early Church.

Circumcision has nothing to do with salvation. Baptism has everything to do with salvation. It is incorrect to compare circumcision to baptism.

Scripture compares circumcision and baptism very clearly.

Colossians 2
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Notice v28 where he mentions "male and female" and "slaves".  Under the Old Covenant only male Jews and male slaves owned by Jews were circumcised thereby receiving the sign of the covenant and becoming under covenant.  In the New Covenant now all receive the sign rather through baptism, and so there is no longer a distinction between Jews (circumcised) and Gentiles (not covenantally circumcised), between free Jews (under normal provision in the covenant) and slaves (under covenant but had special exceptions to the law applied) and male (circumcised, visible sign) and female (not circumcised, no visible sign).

This passage is Colossians 3 is directly showing the transition from circumcision to baptism as sign and entry into a new Covenant with God, that is, how people become "heirs according to the promise" which is a promise that only applies to those who are in covenant with God.

Catholica, you have an excellent view into the New Covenant.

Just as circumcision had no salvation, water baptism has no salvation. Salvation is a condition of the heart, it comes from within man, and has nothing to do with the outside of man such as ceremonies and sacrifices.

Circumcision was the identification of faith into the Old, just as water baptism is the identification of faith into the New. Both are a type or outward appeal to the inward condition.

Listen to what Paul says in Rom. 10:9-10 concerning this very thing.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Salvation has nothing to do with the outward man, it must come from the heart. Water baptism is the outward faith from the heart. It represents your faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is the Gospel that saves us. It is the shadow of your inward heart condition confessed through the actions of water baptism.

In water baptsim you are already dead to sin by your faith response from the heart. You are lowered, immersed into the water which represents being buried with Christ, you are raised out of the water as Christ was raised from the dead. It is not your salvation, it is an outward  confession of the salvation that has already taken place in the heart. As circumcision in the Old, it is your identification with Christ Jesus.


How is it that you can see the connection with the old and new and not see this?
Circumcision was not an simply an identification of faith in the old.  It was actually an entrance into the old covenant.  See Genesis 17.

Genesis 17
Quote
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

There are no promises that God has made that He is bound to honor with those who are not in covenant with him. If a person is not in covenant with God, then none of the salvific promises apply to him.  They may apply to someone else, but not to someone who is not in covenant with God.

Covenants themselves aren't a guarantee of salvation.  After entering a covenant, then it is up to the parties to keep that covenant.  How the new and old covenants are kept is different, that is true.   And ultimately both are about the heart.  But while the heart itself may be what God judges, those who are Christian receive the additional help from God that he has offered those who are in covenant with him, to those people who have become his children.  They rightly claim Christian hope in Christ's work on the cross, that it might be applied to them that they may ultimately enter into beatitude. 

The parallel between circumcision and baptism exists between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant: just as Circumcision put the male Jew or his male slave in covenant with God in the Old Covenant, baptism puts all persons who receive it in Covenant with God under the New Covenant.  Without circumcision in the Old, men were cut off from their nation and did not inherit the promises of God.  Without baptism in the New we are not heirs to the kingdom of heaven, nor can we claim the right to receive any of the promises of the New Covenant made by God, which include all promises about salvation.

This response is based on a progressive salvation which is in no way biblical.

Where did this come from Catholica? Show me in scripture where you received this.

I can well imagine you are tired of your faith being slandered, but my friend, you received this from the abominations of the CC. It's not biblical Catholica, it's an abomination unto the Lord God.

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #141 on: Thu Oct 29, 2015 - 14:57:47 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #142 on: Thu Oct 29, 2015 - 15:58:06 »
First off, don't be ridiculous. We are not talking about one being a Wiccan or a Muslim, but being a Christian and I know you know there is a big difference.
It is a sad thing that neither his mother, father, or him for that matter practiced their Christian faith, a sad thing indeed. We disagree, but the fact remains that he was indeed baptized as an infant and the spiritual covenant with God was established and there was no need for another.
You're the one being ridiculous.  You know nothing except what the RCC teaches / tells you to believe.  It's not what's in the Bible.

His parents were Catholic - and that's a big difference!   no one can put us into a covenant relationship with God except us.  That is why in the Bible it continually says we must believe first.

What you have written regarding covenant relationship with God is not consistent with the Biblical story.  Circumcision is how males (for example) entered into covenant with God in the OT, and it was required to be performed on all males on the 8th day of their life in the OT.  Before they were capable of belief.  Performed by the father, or the mother in dire circumstances.  Jewesses were considered born in covenant with God.  Before they were capable of belief.

While circumcision was both the sign of the covenant and it's sealing in the OT, baptism is the fulfillment of that means of entering into covenant with God in the NT and applies for all people, male and female, regardless of their background, whether it be Jew or Gentile.  And the only people who fall under God's promises of salvation are those who are in covenant with God. 

Thereby it would have been unconscionable if, in the early Church, baptism was only provided for adults.  That would have left children out of covenant with God.  No Jew would have stood for that or accepted it.  And they didn't, because there was infant and child baptism in the early Church.

Circumcision has nothing to do with salvation. Baptism has everything to do with salvation. It is incorrect to compare circumcision to baptism.

Scripture compares circumcision and baptism very clearly.

Colossians 2
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Notice v28 where he mentions "male and female" and "slaves".  Under the Old Covenant only male Jews and male slaves owned by Jews were circumcised thereby receiving the sign of the covenant and becoming under covenant.  In the New Covenant now all receive the sign rather through baptism, and so there is no longer a distinction between Jews (circumcised) and Gentiles (not covenantally circumcised), between free Jews (under normal provision in the covenant) and slaves (under covenant but had special exceptions to the law applied) and male (circumcised, visible sign) and female (not circumcised, no visible sign).

This passage is Colossians 3 is directly showing the transition from circumcision to baptism as sign and entry into a new Covenant with God, that is, how people become "heirs according to the promise" which is a promise that only applies to those who are in covenant with God.

Catholica, you have an excellent view into the New Covenant.

Just as circumcision had no salvation, water baptism has no salvation. Salvation is a condition of the heart, it comes from within man, and has nothing to do with the outside of man such as ceremonies and sacrifices.

Circumcision was the identification of faith into the Old, just as water baptism is the identification of faith into the New. Both are a type or outward appeal to the inward condition.

Listen to what Paul says in Rom. 10:9-10 concerning this very thing.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Salvation has nothing to do with the outward man, it must come from the heart. Water baptism is the outward faith from the heart. It represents your faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is the Gospel that saves us. It is the shadow of your inward heart condition confessed through the actions of water baptism.

In water baptsim you are already dead to sin by your faith response from the heart. You are lowered, immersed into the water which represents being buried with Christ, you are raised out of the water as Christ was raised from the dead. It is not your salvation, it is an outward  confession of the salvation that has already taken place in the heart. As circumcision in the Old, it is your identification with Christ Jesus.


How is it that you can see the connection with the old and new and not see this?
Circumcision was not an simply an identification of faith in the old.  It was actually an entrance into the old covenant.  See Genesis 17.

Genesis 17
Quote
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

There are no promises that God has made that He is bound to honor with those who are not in covenant with him. If a person is not in covenant with God, then none of the salvific promises apply to him.  They may apply to someone else, but not to someone who is not in covenant with God.

Covenants themselves aren't a guarantee of salvation.  After entering a covenant, then it is up to the parties to keep that covenant.  How the new and old covenants are kept is different, that is true.   And ultimately both are about the heart.  But while the heart itself may be what God judges, those who are Christian receive the additional help from God that he has offered those who are in covenant with him, to those people who have become his children.  They rightly claim Christian hope in Christ's work on the cross, that it might be applied to them that they may ultimately enter into beatitude. 

The parallel between circumcision and baptism exists between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant: just as Circumcision put the male Jew or his male slave in covenant with God in the Old Covenant, baptism puts all persons who receive it in Covenant with God under the New Covenant.  Without circumcision in the Old, men were cut off from their nation and did not inherit the promises of God.  Without baptism in the New we are not heirs to the kingdom of heaven, nor can we claim the right to receive any of the promises of the New Covenant made by God, which include all promises about salvation.

This response is based on a progressive salvation which is in no way biblical.

Where did this come from Catholica? Show me in scripture where you received this.

I can well imagine you are tired of your faith being slandered, but my friend, you received this from the abominations of the CC. It's not biblical Catholica, it's an abomination unto the Lord God.

You'll have to explain to me what you mean by "progressive salvation".

In the meantime hopefully you have learned something about covenants.
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 29, 2015 - 16:00:34 by Catholica »

Offline kensington

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #143 on: Thu Oct 29, 2015 - 17:49:50 »
Catholica, If infants receive everything, why doesn't God save all infants?  Why would God only save Catholic infants who's parents chose to baptize them?  Why would a loving God save those babies and leave the rest of the world unsaved and going to hell as infants?  And that would mean that salvation lies on the shoulders of parents who would or would not baptize an infant, right?

None of this even resembles anything I've ever seen about baptism in the Word of God. 

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #143 on: Thu Oct 29, 2015 - 17:49:50 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #144 on: Thu Oct 29, 2015 - 18:08:54 »
Catholica, If infants receive everything, why doesn't God save all infants?  Why would God only save Catholic infants who's parents chose to baptize them?  Why would a loving God save those babies and leave the rest of the world unsaved and going to hell as infants?  And that would mean that salvation lies on the shoulders of parents who would or would not baptize an infant, right?

None of this even resembles anything I've ever seen about baptism in the Word of God.

There is nothing in the Bible that says how babies can be saved other than receiving baptism.  If God does save unbaptized babies, it has not been revealed. But we don't naturally deserve to be in heaven. It is a supernatural gift that must be received.

God saves baptized babies because he has made salvation possible for them through the sacrament of baptism. He also can save people who haven't accepted Christ and are about to die while incapacitated this way, and also those who are incapable of understanding Jesus, sin, and the gospel.

Methodists and Lutherans and Anglicans also baptize babies. There is nothing about a baby of Catholic parents in particular that God saves only them.

That some have abandoned God's way and refuse to baptize their infants is a sad thing, for sure. There is no promises of salvation for anyone who has not entered into covenant with God.

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #144 on: Thu Oct 29, 2015 - 18:08:54 »



Offline Ladonia

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #145 on: Thu Oct 29, 2015 - 21:44:41 »
Catholica, If infants receive everything, why doesn't God save all infants?  Why would God only save Catholic infants who's parents chose to baptize them?  Why would a loving God save those babies and leave the rest of the world unsaved and going to hell as infants?  And that would mean that salvation lies on the shoulders of parents who would or would not baptize an infant, right?

None of this even resembles anything I've ever seen about baptism in the Word of God.

There is nothing in the Bible that says how babies can be saved other than receiving baptism.  If God does save unbaptized babies, it has not been revealed. But we don't naturally deserve to be in heaven. It is a supernatural gift that must be received.

God saves baptized babies because he has made salvation possible for them through the sacrament of baptism. He also can save people who haven't accepted Christ and are about to die while incapacitated this way, and also those who are incapable of understanding Jesus, sin, and the gospel.

Methodists and Lutherans and Anglicans also baptize babies. There is nothing about a baby of Catholic parents in particular that God saves only them.

That some have abandoned God's way and refuse to baptize their infants is a sad thing, for sure. There is no promises of salvation for anyone who has not entered into covenant with God.

You just had to go and bring up other Christian denominations and infant baptism didn't you?  ::frown::  And don't forget, we can also include our Eastern Orthodox brethren in this too.

Too bad for the rejectionists here that Catholics cannot be singled out on this issue, as infant baptism now has to be seen as a universal action accepted by many denominations and not just one. Once again we see how badly they misinterpret the Scriptures which say whole households were baptized and reject the sacred traditions of Christianity handed down for many centuries.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #146 on: Thu Oct 29, 2015 - 21:58:28 »



Also, the Catholic Church likewise accepts as valid baptisms by other Christian faith traditions as long as they were done in the proper manner. (As I described above). 
'proper' by RCC 'rules',  not God's.
[/quote]

Yes, there is only one proper way to be baptized validly, not by the Catholic Church's "rules" but by the Bible's rules. One must be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost and water must also be used.  If the aforementioned way is not used, it is not a valid baptism.

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #147 on: Thu Oct 29, 2015 - 22:00:10 »
And yet the Lord was baptized at 30 years of age...

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #148 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 02:55:36 »
Genesis 17

9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.  10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised;  11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you


Jesus was baptized to fulfill prophecy.

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #149 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 03:28:07 »
Scripture compares circumcision and baptism very clearly.

Colossians 2
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.New Covenant now all receive the sign rather through baptism, and so there is no

Notice v28 where he mentions "male and female" and "slaves".  Under the Old Covenant only male Jews and male slaves owned by Jews were circumcised thereby receiving the sign of the covenant and becoming under covenant.  In the longer a distinction between Jews (circumcised) and Gentiles (not covenantally circumcised), between free Jews (under normal provision in the covenant) and slaves (under covenant but had special exceptions to the law applied) and male (circumcised, visible sign) and female (not circumcised, no visible sign).

This passage is Colossians 3 is directly showing the transition from circumcision to baptism as sign and entry into a new Covenant with God, that is, how people become "heirs according to the promise" which is a promise that only applies to those who are in covenant with God.
he is speaking of the circumcision of the heart.

Offline skeeter

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #150 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 03:33:57 »
Catholica, If infants receive everything, why doesn't God save all infants?  Why would God only save Catholic infants who's parents chose to baptize them?  Why would a loving God save those babies and leave the rest of the world unsaved and going to hell as infants?  And that would mean that salvation lies on the shoulders of parents who would or would not baptize an infant, right?

None of this even resembles anything I've ever seen about baptism in the Word of God.
There is nothing in the Bible that says how babies can be saved other than receiving baptism.  If God does save unbaptized babies, it has not been revealed. But we don't naturally deserve to be in heaven. It is a supernatural gift that must be received.

God saves baptized babies because he has made salvation possible for them through the sacrament of baptism. He also can save people who haven't accepted Christ and are about to die while incapacitated this way, and also those who are incapable of understanding Jesus, sin, and the gospel.

Methodists and Lutherans and Anglicans also baptize babies. There is nothing about a baby of Catholic parents in particular that God saves only them.

That some have abandoned God's way and refuse to baptize their infants is a sad thing, for sure. There is no promises of salvation for anyone who has not entered into covenant with God.
there is nothing in the Bible regarding baptism of babies.  RE: little ones, see Matt 18 I think.

as for salvation/entering the covenant - circumcision of the heart - taking Christ into your heart.

Offline skeeter

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #151 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 03:44:03 »
Catholica, If infants receive everything, why doesn't God save all infants?  Why would God only save Catholic infants who's parents chose to baptize them?  Why would a loving God save those babies and leave the rest of the world unsaved and going to hell as infants?  And that would mean that salvation lies on the shoulders of parents who would or would not baptize an infant, right?

None of this even resembles anything I've ever seen about baptism in the Word of God.

There is nothing in the Bible that says how babies can be saved other than receiving baptism.  If God does save unbaptized babies, it has not been revealed. But we don't naturally deserve to be in heaven. It is a supernatural gift that must be received.

God saves baptized babies because he has made salvation possible for them through the sacrament of baptism. He also can save people who haven't accepted Christ and are about to die while incapacitated this way, and also those who are incapable of understanding Jesus, sin, and the gospel.

Methodists and Lutherans and Anglicans also baptize babies. There is nothing about a baby of Catholic parents in particular that God saves only them.

That some have abandoned God's way and refuse to baptize their infants is a sad thing, for sure. There is no promises of salvation for anyone who has not entered into covenant with God.
You just had to go and bring up other Christian denominations and infant baptism didn't you?  ::frown::  And don't forget, we can also include our Eastern Orthodox brethren in this too.

Too bad for the rejectionists here that Catholics cannot be singled out on this issue, as infant baptism now has to be seen as a universal action accepted by many denominations and not just one. Once again we see how badly they misinterpret the Scriptures which say whole households were baptized and reject the sacred traditions of Christianity handed down for many centuries.
It's the Catholics misinterpreting the Bible.  It says nothing about babies in those households.
there are many denoms around that do not follow the word of God.  Dead churches in every city on most every block.

catholics can't even pin down ST for one to know what it is... that's confusion and that isn't God.


Offline Hexalpa

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #152 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 04:44:13 »
I support baptism of babies, we Christians are to bring up out children in the Light of the Lord Jesus Christ end of story.

Only Satan would work against Baptism of anyone.

Sure people nowadays push that Baptism is something that the child must do on his own account, but baptism does not save you or make you go to Heaven but it can lead you their.

The thing is that it is the Holy Spirit baptism that we hope for and that is the way to get to Heaven.

John say's so ! he baptises, but the baptism in the Holy Spirit in Jesus Christ is where it's all at.

Not every church goer has the Holy Spirit in Jesus Christ, I did not until I was 33 years old, I had been a believer of Jesus from as far back as I know, I never rejected what I was taught but I never truly knew who he truly was 100 %.
No one can tell you who Jesus Christ truly is, it just does not work like that, it's Jesus Christ who informs you as such, in fact I was totally blown away by it on that day.

No one could tempt me away from Jesus Christ from that day on, it's a free God given gift.

Offline RB

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #153 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 05:27:13 »
I support baptism of babies
You or me supporting a position does not make it scriptural; but what gives our doctrine support is the voice of God alone, not our church affiliation, or our grandma's teachings, or parents, or any man's teachings.  As much as I respect the Reformers, they were dead wrong on this doctrine of baptizing infants, one of the dirty bed sheets that they brought out of fornication with the whore of Rome. I do not even believe that we should baptized any young person until there is clear evidence of a true commitment to the religion/faith of Jesus Christ.  Beside of not being able to give one clear biblical proof of infant baptism, which no one can, there is not one evidence of young teenagers being baptized in the scriptures, if so, where?  We condemn the RCC for their practice of baptizing infants, how about other religions baptizing young people by the millions? True baptism in the word of God were always performed by ADULTS.  True baptism has saving power, per Mark 16:16 (NOT REGENERATION) in a practical sense, where one has to KNOW what he is doing and he has to be willing to make a LIFELONG commitment in following the teachings of Jesus Christ, this most are not ready to do, until they reach a certain age, and what that age is, is not revealed to us, but without question, it is generally after puberty entering into adult life. When one is baptized, he is baptized into Jesus Christ, or, into his religion/faith per Romans 6:1-3, and with that comes a serious commitment which infants and young people are not able or really for.  My position is that if they are of the elect, they will NOT spoil, they will be fine, until the proper season when they are willing to fully follow Jesus Christ, leaving this world behind and its false peace and happiness, and follow the only source of real peace and contentment and enduring happiness there is in this world.  In the meantime, we as Believers are commanded to teach them the fear of God and guide them into the teachings of his words, and for us to look for fruits of godliness in their lives, and when we see that, we should exhort them to follow God. Water baptism will come in its proper season.  We cannot make them God's elect, but we can guide them properly if they are. 
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 17:00:51 by RB »

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #154 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 06:08:54 »
Baptism does not save anyone, but Jesus said to do it, the thing is that at the time of Jesus the people were not Christians but when they became a Christian community so it makes sense that one does as such.

No person who is born again would not be proud to baptise their child end of story.

I am a Christian and come hell or high water I will have my children baptised, I know it does not save but it sure is on the path to doing the right thing as a Christian and they are sealed in this and I am their father and I set the path, that's my duty !

I hope and pray for the baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes, as the greatest of all, as this leads to true Salvation.

As a Christian nation all are under Christ regardless.

Offline chosenone

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #155 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 08:05:10 »
Baptism does not save anyone, but Jesus said to do it, the thing is that at the time of Jesus the people were not Christians but when they became a Christian community so it makes sense that one does as such.

No person who is born again would not be proud to baptise their child end of story.

I am a Christian and come hell or high water I will have my children baptised, I know it does not save but it sure is on the path to doing the right thing as a Christian and they are sealed in this and I am their father and I set the path, that's my duty !

I hope and pray for the baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes, as the greatest of all, as this leads to true Salvation.

As a Christian nation all are under Christ regardless.
 

Had I been a believer when my children were small I wouldnt not have had them baptised. Baptism is for those who have chosen to follow Jesus.

Offline doorknocker

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #156 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 08:18:32 »
Baptism does not save anyone, but Jesus said to do it, the thing is that at the time of Jesus the people were not Christians but when they became a Christian community so it makes sense that one does as such.

No person who is born again would not be proud to baptise their child end of story.

I am a Christian and come hell or high water I will have my children baptised, I know it does not save but it sure is on the path to doing the right thing as a Christian and they are sealed in this and I am their father and I set the path, that's my duty !

I hope and pray for the baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes, as the greatest of all, as this leads to true Salvation.

As a Christian nation all are under Christ regardless.
 

Had I been a believer when my children were small I wouldnt not have had them baptised. Baptism is for those who have chosen to follow Jesus.


I thought that you were a believer since you were 15 as you have stated before.

What changed?

Offline Catholica

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #157 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 09:09:17 »
Scripture compares circumcision and baptism very clearly.

Colossians 2
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.New Covenant now all receive the sign rather through baptism, and so there is no

Notice v28 where he mentions "male and female" and "slaves".  Under the Old Covenant only male Jews and male slaves owned by Jews were circumcised thereby receiving the sign of the covenant and becoming under covenant.  In the longer a distinction between Jews (circumcised) and Gentiles (not covenantally circumcised), between free Jews (under normal provision in the covenant) and slaves (under covenant but had special exceptions to the law applied) and male (circumcised, visible sign) and female (not circumcised, no visible sign).

This passage is Colossians 3 is directly showing the transition from circumcision to baptism as sign and entry into a new Covenant with God, that is, how people become "heirs according to the promise" which is a promise that only applies to those who are in covenant with God.
he is speaking of the circumcision of the heart.

Baptism is the mechanism through which Jesus circumcises the heart.  He promised to in Ezekiel 36:

Quote
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #158 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 11:47:27 »
And yet the Lord was baptized at 30 years of age...

He could have hardly been baptized as an infant as John (the baptizer) was also an infant at the time. But he was certainly circumcised as an infant, continuing on with the tradition of Jewish male circumcision. Had they (the Jews) been traditionally baptizing infants, Jesus would have had it done then.

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #159 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 11:48:59 »
Baptism does not save anyone, but Jesus said to do it, the thing is that at the time of Jesus the people were not Christians but when they became a Christian community so it makes sense that one does as such.

No person who is born again would not be proud to baptise their child end of story.

I am a Christian and come hell or high water I will have my children baptised, I know it does not save but it sure is on the path to doing the right thing as a Christian and they are sealed in this and I am their father and I set the path, that's my duty !

I hope and pray for the baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes, as the greatest of all, as this leads to true Salvation.

As a Christian nation all are under Christ regardless.

Well a hearty AMEN to that!

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #160 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 11:58:18 »
And yet the Lord was baptized at 30 years of age...

He could have hardly been baptized as an infant as John (the baptizer) was also an infant at the time. But he was certainly circumcised as an infant, continuing on with the tradition of Jewish male circumcision. Had they (the Jews) been traditionally baptizing infants, Jesus would have had it done then.

If you guys are using Jewish circumcision as an argument for infant baptism, it's a poor argument considering Paul condemned using it as a religious ritual.

Offline Catholica

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #161 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 12:24:30 »
And yet the Lord was baptized at 30 years of age...

He could have hardly been baptized as an infant as John (the baptizer) was also an infant at the time. But he was certainly circumcised as an infant, continuing on with the tradition of Jewish male circumcision. Had they (the Jews) been traditionally baptizing infants, Jesus would have had it done then.

If you guys are using Jewish circumcision as an argument for infant baptism, it's a poor argument considering Paul condemned using it as a religious ritual.

Paul didn't have a problem correlating circumcision and baptism.  I don't know why we should.

Offline RB

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #162 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 17:12:46 »
No person who is born again would not be proud to baptize their child end of story.
That's the very reason WHY we do not baptize infants, or anyone, who has no true knowledge as to why they are being baptized and are not with true understanding, willing to commit their life to the religion of the Son of God. We live by the testimony of our God from the holy scriptures, and there is absolutely no evidence of infants or young teenagers baptized therein, none whatsoever. If so, then prove it. Your personal opinion is worthless , just as mine is and every other person.  What does God's word reveal to us? No man has a right to teach any other doctrine than what is in the word of of God, no man does.

Offline RB

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #163 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 17:18:12 »
you
I thought that you were a believer since you were 15 as you have stated before.
What changed?
Why do you not leave sincere believers alone, all you do is to find fault with them. You very seldom add much to edify, but you for the most part, speak against other believers. Do you not have any good thing to say, in way of encouraging others?

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #164 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 17:37:39 »
Atheist have naming day they set aside  ::tippinghat::
Water Baptism does not save, but is a family of believers of hope.
To set ones child aside of that blessing is a sad thing to do.

Offline doorknocker

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #165 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 17:47:18 »
you
I thought that you were a believer since you were 15 as you have stated before.
What changed?
Why do you not leave sincere believers alone, all you do is to find fault with them. You very seldom add much to edify, but you for the most part, speak against other believers. Do you not have any good thing to say, in way of encouraging others?


That would make 2 of us then Red, wouldn't it?

Or maybe I am just learning from you. ::smile::

Offline skeeter

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #166 on: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 23:04:29 »
Scripture compares circumcision and baptism very clearly.

Colossians 2
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.New Covenant now all receive the sign rather through baptism, and so there is no

Notice v28 where he mentions "male and female" and "slaves".  Under the Old Covenant only male Jews and male slaves owned by Jews were circumcised thereby receiving the sign of the covenant and becoming under covenant.  In the longer a distinction between Jews (circumcised) and Gentiles (not covenantally circumcised), between free Jews (under normal provision in the covenant) and slaves (under covenant but had special exceptions to the law applied) and male (circumcised, visible sign) and female (not circumcised, no visible sign).

This passage is Colossians 3 is directly showing the transition from circumcision to baptism as sign and entry into a new Covenant with God, that is, how people become "heirs according to the promise" which is a promise that only applies to those who are in covenant with God.
he is speaking of the circumcision of the heart.
Baptism is the mechanism through which Jesus circumcises the heart.  He promised to in Ezekiel 36:

Quote
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

our heart is 'circumcised' when we are saved - when the Holy Spirit 'baptizes' someone into Christ (non water).
Ez 36 is to the house of Israel, not us.
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 30, 2015 - 23:13:48 by skeeter »

Offline RB

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #167 on: Sat Oct 31, 2015 - 03:31:40 »
That would make 2 of us then Red, wouldn't it?
No it does not. I make a difference between sincere believers (even though I know we do not agree on certain doctrines) and those who just are out to play silly games and who nick and pick others apart just to hurt them or expose a weakness they may have.
Quote
Or maybe I am just learning from you.
Not from me, maybe your cronies.   

Offline RB

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #168 on: Sat Oct 31, 2015 - 04:13:01 »
Atheist have naming day they set aside
Unbelievers do many things that God's children are commanded not to follow, or imitate, so we can be somewhat like them, or, at least not too far unlike them. That mentality has created many departures from the word of God, within the true worship of God. We are not allow to follow their customs in any fashion. Seemly harmless things allow, turn into a great departure from the true worship of God. God killed one man in the OT for not following the due order of doing things according to the word of God.
Quote
2nd Samuel 6:2-7~"And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims. And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart. And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark. And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals. And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God."
This seems to be a good thing that Uzzah did, yet he was not following the "due order" that God had already given, and took upon himself to do that which he did not have the right to do, and without question, he knew it, but his proud spirit got the best of him, and cause him to do what was forbidden him to do.
Quote
1st Chronicles 15:1-4...12,13~"And David made him houses in the city of David, and prepared a place for the ark of God, and pitched for it a tent. Then David said, None ought to carry the ark of God but the Levites: for them hath the LORD chosen to carry the ark of God, and to minister unto him for ever. And David gathered all Israel together to Jerusalem, to bring up the ark of the LORD unto his place, which he had prepared for it. And David assembled the children of Aaron, and the Levites:.........And said unto them, Ye are the chief of the fathers of the Levites: sanctify yourselves, both ye and your brethren, that ye may bring up the ark of the LORD God of Israel unto the place that I have prepared for it.For because ye did it not at the first, the LORD our God made a breach upon us, for that we sought him not after the due order."
We have learned from Uzzah's error, and by God's help, we will follow the due order!
Quote
To set ones child aside of that blessing is a sad thing to do.
Well, with those personal thoughts about what we should do, then I ask you, was Uzzah right or wrong in trying to keep the ark of God from falling by touching it?  I would say that his act was much more proper and from a quick reaction without much thinking than for us baptizing infants when we know that we have no support from the word of God to do so. What we should do for our child is to train them in the fear of God with its proper worship of him; this takes much more effort on our part than a trip to local baptistery, and getting water poured or sprinkled on the child. One takes so much more act of faith than the other~not to mentioned, a lot less pains. One is nothing more than a ritual, while the other is a life of faith
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 31, 2015 - 04:16:47 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #169 on: Sat Oct 31, 2015 - 05:48:43 »
But he was certainly circumcised as an infant, continuing on with the tradition of Jewish male circumcision. Had they (the Jews) been traditionally baptizing infants, Jesus would have had it done then.
Does Circumcision Prove Infant Baptism? No! For if it is, then only infant boys should be baptized (Gen 17:10; Ex 12:48).

No! Circumcision was a sign of a covenant based on physical descent. Baptism is a sign of conversion resulting from grace, which has nothing to do with physical descent (Matt 3:7-12; Gal 3:16,26-29).

No! John the Baptist baptized in water those who already had the sign of circumcision. This showed that the sign was different and the condition was different.

No! The children of God are not those born of certain parents or given some ritualistic application of water, but rather the result of a spiritual birth (John 1:12-13).

No! The children of God are not the natural descendants of Abraham, but rather the spiritual descendants (Rom 9:6-8). And these are not the same.

No! The early Jewish Christians under apostolic direction did not think so, for they continued to circumcise their infant boys (Acts 21:20-21), which was superfluous and contradictory, if baptism had replaced circumcision.

No! The only circumcision with any meaning in the New Testament is a circumcision made without hands by the cutting off of Jesus Christ, Who died for our sins (Col 2:11). When they start baptizing without using hands, we will reconsider their argument.

No! The only circumcision with any meaning in the New Testament is an internal operation of the Spirit upon the heart of man (Rom 2:28-29), which purifies his heart, and makes him a fit candidate for baptism (I Pet 3:21)!

No! Scripture teaches plainly and repeatedly that faith and repentance are conditions for baptism (Mark 16:16; Acts 8:37), but circumcision had no prerequisite condition (Lev 12:2-3).

No! Scripture teaches plainly and repeatedly that faith and repentance are conditions for baptism, and this is impossible for infants (Jonah 4:11).

No! When the New Testament church debated in Acts 15 whether circumcision should be required of Gentile believers as part of becoming a Christian, it is astonishing that not once in that entire debate did anyone say anything about baptism taking the place of circumcision. If baptism is the simple replacement of circumcision as a sign of the new covenant, and thus valid for children as well as for adults, as circumcision was, surely this would have been the time to develop the argument and so show that circumcision was no longer necessary. But it was not even mentioned.

No? Then where did this heresy come from? It came from the Presbyterians, who retained the baptismal heresies of their mother church, Rome. They ransacked the church fathers of the Roman Catholic Church to find a logical defense for their continuation of Rome's superstition of infant sprinkling. No apostle or early saint even considered the idea, as faith and repentance were necessary for baptism; and infant baptism was never practice. It is a invention of man for mothers who got some comfort of thinking that their babies dying in infancy where in heaven, if the truth was known.     

Jd34

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #170 on: Sat Oct 31, 2015 - 06:59:23 »
I think a simple question deserves a simple answer.

Getting into heaven is a pass/fail kinda of thing-- I don't think there is a certain grade you have to make to make the cut.

Jesus tells us that He is the way to heaven.  Believing in Him and in His word are the only requirements. 

But since I also professed my acceptance of Christ and baptized in a public church , along with being circumcised as an infant - I should be a straight A+ follower of Christ and receive high honors when I graduate from this earth into heaven... ::sarcasmalert:

Truth is, I don't really care about heaven in the sense that most seem to do--

Seems to me that "getting to Heaven"  is looked at as being more of an achievement based on ones merit instead of the reward of getting to be with and worshiping our Lord.





Offline skeeter

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #171 on: Sat Oct 31, 2015 - 17:34:36 »
But he was certainly circumcised as an infant, continuing on with the tradition of Jewish male circumcision. Had they (the Jews) been traditionally baptizing infants, Jesus would have had it done then.
Does Circumcision Prove Infant Baptism? No! For if it is, then only infant boys should be baptized (Gen 17:10; Ex 12:48).

No! Circumcision was a sign of a covenant based on physical descent. Baptism is a sign of conversion resulting from grace, which has nothing to do with physical descent (Matt 3:7-12; Gal 3:16,26-29).

No! John the Baptist baptized in water those who already had the sign of circumcision. This showed that the sign was different and the condition was different.

No! The children of God are not those born of certain parents or given some ritualistic application of water, but rather the result of a spiritual birth (John 1:12-13).

No! The children of God are not the natural descendants of Abraham, but rather the spiritual descendants (Rom 9:6-8). And these are not the same.

No! The early Jewish Christians under apostolic direction did not think so, for they continued to circumcise their infant boys (Acts 21:20-21), which was superfluous and contradictory, if baptism had replaced circumcision.

No! The only circumcision with any meaning in the New Testament is a circumcision made without hands by the cutting off of Jesus Christ, Who died for our sins (Col 2:11). When they start baptizing without using hands, we will reconsider their argument.

No! The only circumcision with any meaning in the New Testament is an internal operation of the Spirit upon the heart of man (Rom 2:28-29), which purifies his heart, and makes him a fit candidate for baptism (I Pet 3:21)!

No! Scripture teaches plainly and repeatedly that faith and repentance are conditions for baptism (Mark 16:16; Acts 8:37), but circumcision had no prerequisite condition (Lev 12:2-3).

No! Scripture teaches plainly and repeatedly that faith and repentance are conditions for baptism, and this is impossible for infants (Jonah 4:11).

No! When the New Testament church debated in Acts 15 whether circumcision should be required of Gentile believers as part of becoming a Christian, it is astonishing that not once in that entire debate did anyone say anything about baptism taking the place of circumcision. If baptism is the simple replacement of circumcision as a sign of the new covenant, and thus valid for children as well as for adults, as circumcision was, surely this would have been the time to develop the argument and so show that circumcision was no longer necessary. But it was not even mentioned.

No? Then where did this heresy come from? It came from the Presbyterians, who retained the baptismal heresies of their mother church, Rome. They ransacked the church fathers of the Roman Catholic Church to find a logical defense for their continuation of Rome's superstition of infant sprinkling. No apostle or early saint even considered the idea, as faith and repentance were necessary for baptism; and infant baptism was never practice. It is a invention of man for mothers who got some comfort of thinking that their babies dying in infancy where in heaven, if the truth was known.   
great support post Red!  I saved it for future reference.

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #172 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 20:06:35 »
ST John 3:5-8 this is about the kingdom of God.
ST Luke 8:5-18 this is a fact one must be.
ST Matthew 7:12-27 ( 21 he who does the will of my Farther in Heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven ) or 20:1-16 also is so.
ST John 5:19-47 and 12:44-50 and all chapter 14 15, 16,17.

Don't be slaves to Sin or false teachers.

 

     
anything