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Author Topic: How to get into heaven?  (Read 4755 times)

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Offline mclees8

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #35 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 12:47:53 »
Why not? Baptism is baptism.

Why not what ?   Batptism is baptism?  Are you referring to Christs baptism 2000 years ago as a legitimate baptism today?

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #35 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 12:47:53 »

Offline skeeter

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #36 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 12:56:19 »
does it say water baptism?
What other kind of baptism could it be, in context?
baptism into Christ.  It doesn't require water.

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #36 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 12:56:19 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #37 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 12:59:23 »
Catholica-  Even if a person never is baptized in water as long as they believe in Jesus they are still baptized in water.

Jesus was baptized in water so anyone who believes in Jesus is also baptized in water whether they actually do it or not.

We are the righteousness of God in Jesus.  Which means Jesus fulfilled the law and we fulfill the law through Jesus.

I was baptized in water some 2,000 years ago when Jesus was baptized.  He did it for me.

Curious. 

Then why, when Peter was asked in Acts 2:38 as to what to do for salvation, tell people to "repent and be baptized" if they were already baptized when Jesus was baptized?  Why did Jesus tell the apostles to go forth teaching and baptizing in Matthew 28:19-20?

Do you consider yourself born baptized?

does it say water baptism?

What other kind of baptism could it be, in context?

I believe Peter was definately speaking of water baptism, but not the way you have taken it.

No one in scripture speaks more of salvation than the Apostle Paul, he is the only one who explains every aspect of salvation. Not one time did he mention water baptism as necessary for salvation. He said in Acts 20:27,  "For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God." If water baptism was necessary for salvation Paul would have mentioned it so many times there would be no doubt.

When the jailer asked Paul, what must I do to be saved, did Paul mention water baptism? No he did not, but told him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

As kindly as I know how to say it, you are in very serious trouble with God believing water baptism has a part in the forgivness of sins. Acts 2:38 is Satan's favorite verse in scripture. He is using it to his advantage as a work-based salvation that will not save anyone.

Titus 3:3-7
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Regeneration comes through baptism, which is a washing a water with the (spoken "rhema" words) through which we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who sanctifies us.

Saying that believing the washing away of sins through baptism is dangerous for my salvation is kind of presumptuous.  How do you suggest that my sins are forgiven?  How do you know I haven't also done that?

Offline Catholica

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #38 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 13:00:12 »
does it say water baptism?
What other kind of baptism could it be, in context?
baptism into Christ.  It doesn't require water.

How is one baptized into Christ if not by water?

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #38 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 13:00:12 »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #39 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 13:04:42 »
does it say water baptism?
What other kind of baptism could it be, in context?
baptism into Christ.  It doesn't require water.

Exactly right, skeeter, Paul explains it in Rom. 6.

When one accepts Christ as Saviour, the indwelling Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person. That is the baptism into Christ. Water baptism then is administered as a symbol of that baptism into Christ (your salvation). Water baptism is a visible sign of your faith in Christ, it represents the death, burial, and resrrection of Christ i.e., the baptism into Christ.

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #39 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 13:04:42 »



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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #40 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 13:06:01 »
Why not? Baptism is baptism.

Why not what ?   Batptism is baptism?  Are you referring to Christs baptism 2000 years ago as a legitimate baptism today?

He was baptized in water by John, and He was filled with the Holy Spirit, both that are done today. So yes?

Offline Catholica

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #41 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 13:07:59 »
does it say water baptism?
What other kind of baptism could it be, in context?
baptism into Christ.  It doesn't require water.

Exactly right, skeeter, Paul explains it in Rom. 6.

When one accepts Christ as Saviour, the indwelling Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person. That is the baptism into Christ. Water baptism then is administered as a symbol of that baptism into Christ (your salvation). Water baptism is a visible sign of your faith in Christ, it represents the death, burial, and resrrection of Christ i.e., the baptism into Christ.

Acts 2:38 doesn't say "accept Christ as Savior", nor is the phrase used anywhere in the Bible.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #42 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 13:28:02 »
does it say water baptism?
What other kind of baptism could it be, in context?
baptism into Christ.  It doesn't require water.

Exactly right, skeeter, Paul explains it in Rom. 6.

When one accepts Christ as Saviour, the indwelling Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person. That is the baptism into Christ. Water baptism then is administered as a symbol of that baptism into Christ (your salvation). Water baptism is a visible sign of your faith in Christ, it represents the death, burial, and resrrection of Christ i.e., the baptism into Christ.

Acts 2:38 doesn't say "accept Christ as Savior", nor is the phrase used anywhere in the Bible.

What has one done when they hear the Gospel, feel sorrow for their sins, and believe that Jesus sacrificed Himself and rose from the dead to redeem man back to God? They have "accepted Christ as Saviour."

Rom. 10:9-10

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Offline Catholica

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #43 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 13:45:02 »
does it say water baptism?
What other kind of baptism could it be, in context?
baptism into Christ.  It doesn't require water.

Exactly right, skeeter, Paul explains it in Rom. 6.

When one accepts Christ as Saviour, the indwelling Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person. That is the baptism into Christ. Water baptism then is administered as a symbol of that baptism into Christ (your salvation). Water baptism is a visible sign of your faith in Christ, it represents the death, burial, and resrrection of Christ i.e., the baptism into Christ.

Acts 2:38 doesn't say "accept Christ as Savior", nor is the phrase used anywhere in the Bible.

What has one done when they hear the Gospel, feel sorrow for their sins, and believe that Jesus sacrificed Himself and rose from the dead to redeem man back to God? They have "accepted Christ as Saviour."

If you say so.  The Bible doesn't say that.

I would say that they have felt sorrow and believed something.  That is different from repenting (which is more than sorrow) and being baptized (which is not the same as believing).  If you replace "baptize" with "believe" in the Bible then you can support your argument I suppose.  But you can't.  It says be baptized, which is not the same as believing.

Rom. 10:9-10

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9-10 used this way is ripped from context and actually doesn't support what you are saying.   Case in point, accepting what you say as true makes "confessing with one's mouth" a work that "adds to Jesus' finished work".

Let's say that someone is mute, or worse, is born without a mouth.  Is he unsaveable?

« Last Edit: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 13:48:13 by Catholica »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #44 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 13:56:46 »
does it say water baptism?
What other kind of baptism could it be, in context?
baptism into Christ.  It doesn't require water.

Exactly right, skeeter, Paul explains it in Rom. 6.

When one accepts Christ as Saviour, the indwelling Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person. That is the baptism into Christ. Water baptism then is administered as a symbol of that baptism into Christ (your salvation). Water baptism is a visible sign of your faith in Christ, it represents the death, burial, and resrrection of Christ i.e., the baptism into Christ.

Acts 2:38 doesn't say "accept Christ as Savior", nor is the phrase used anywhere in the Bible.

What has one done when they hear the Gospel, feel sorrow for their sins, and believe that Jesus sacrificed Himself and rose from the dead to redeem man back to God? They have "accepted Christ as Saviour."

If you say so.  The Bible doesn't say that.

I would say that they have felt sorrow and believed something.  That is different from repenting (which is more than sorrow) and being baptized (which is not the same as believing).  If you replace "baptize" with "believe" in the Bible then you can support your argument I suppose.  But you can't.  It says be baptized, which is not the same as believing.

Rom. 10:9-10

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9-10 used this way is ripped from context and actually doesn't support what you are saying.   Case in point, accepting what you say as true makes "confessing with one's mouth" a work that "adds to Jesus' finished work".

Let's say that someone is mute, or worse, is born without a mouth.  Is he unsaveable?

You have completely missed what Paul has said. "Confessing with the mouth" is a metaphor. Paul is saying what is in the heart will come out of the mouth.

Paul said, "for with the heart man believes unto righteousness." Salvation comes from the heart of man, not a pool of water, or over a period of time in well doing.

Salvation is so easy, but yet so hard for many. It will pass some by, and they don't even know it.

Offline Catholica

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #45 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 14:00:12 »
does it say water baptism?
What other kind of baptism could it be, in context?
baptism into Christ.  It doesn't require water.

Exactly right, skeeter, Paul explains it in Rom. 6.

When one accepts Christ as Saviour, the indwelling Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person. That is the baptism into Christ. Water baptism then is administered as a symbol of that baptism into Christ (your salvation). Water baptism is a visible sign of your faith in Christ, it represents the death, burial, and resrrection of Christ i.e., the baptism into Christ.

Acts 2:38 doesn't say "accept Christ as Savior", nor is the phrase used anywhere in the Bible.

What has one done when they hear the Gospel, feel sorrow for their sins, and believe that Jesus sacrificed Himself and rose from the dead to redeem man back to God? They have "accepted Christ as Saviour."

If you say so.  The Bible doesn't say that.

I would say that they have felt sorrow and believed something.  That is different from repenting (which is more than sorrow) and being baptized (which is not the same as believing).  If you replace "baptize" with "believe" in the Bible then you can support your argument I suppose.  But you can't.  It says be baptized, which is not the same as believing.

Rom. 10:9-10

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9-10 used this way is ripped from context and actually doesn't support what you are saying.   Case in point, accepting what you say as true makes "confessing with one's mouth" a work that "adds to Jesus' finished work".

Let's say that someone is mute, or worse, is born without a mouth.  Is he unsaveable?

You have completely missed what Paul has said. "Confessing with the mouth" is a metaphor. Paul is saying what is in the heart will come out of the mouth.

Paul said, "for with the heart man believes unto righteousness." Salvation comes from the heart of man, not a pool of water, or over a period of time in well doing.

Salvation is so easy, but yet so hard for many. It will pass some by, and they don't even know it.

The verses from Titus 3 and Ephesians 5 above seem to show otherwise, that in fact water is involved in this process.  Care to reinterpret those verses for us?

Offline Charlie24

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #46 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 14:28:51 »
does it say water baptism?
What other kind of baptism could it be, in context?
baptism into Christ.  It doesn't require water.

Exactly right, skeeter, Paul explains it in Rom. 6.

When one accepts Christ as Saviour, the indwelling Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person. That is the baptism into Christ. Water baptism then is administered as a symbol of that baptism into Christ (your salvation). Water baptism is a visible sign of your faith in Christ, it represents the death, burial, and resrrection of Christ i.e., the baptism into Christ.

Acts 2:38 doesn't say "accept Christ as Savior", nor is the phrase used anywhere in the Bible.

What has one done when they hear the Gospel, feel sorrow for their sins, and believe that Jesus sacrificed Himself and rose from the dead to redeem man back to God? They have "accepted Christ as Saviour."

If you say so.  The Bible doesn't say that.

I would say that they have felt sorrow and believed something.  That is different from repenting (which is more than sorrow) and being baptized (which is not the same as believing).  If you replace "baptize" with "believe" in the Bible then you can support your argument I suppose.  But you can't.  It says be baptized, which is not the same as believing.

Rom. 10:9-10

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9-10 used this way is ripped from context and actually doesn't support what you are saying.   Case in point, accepting what you say as true makes "confessing with one's mouth" a work that "adds to Jesus' finished work".

Let's say that someone is mute, or worse, is born without a mouth.  Is he unsaveable?

You have completely missed what Paul has said. "Confessing with the mouth" is a metaphor. Paul is saying what is in the heart will come out of the mouth.

Paul said, "for with the heart man believes unto righteousness." Salvation comes from the heart of man, not a pool of water, or over a period of time in well doing.

Salvation is so easy, but yet so hard for many. It will pass some by, and they don't even know it.

The verses from Titus 3 and Ephesians 5 above seem to show otherwise, that in fact water is involved in this process.  Care to reinterpret those verses for us?

You must study the epistles of Paul to understand what the "baptism into Christ" really is. Once you do, the light bulb effect takes place.

Titus 3:5
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

The "washing of regeration" is not referring to water baptism. It is the work performed by the Holy Spirit at conversion. It's not a washing of water, it is a wasshing of Blood, the Blood of Jesus Christ.

Rev. 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.

Lev. 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

The "renewing of the Holy Spirit" is the believer now being regened, so to speak, he is changed by his faith in Christ.

2Cor. 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The believer is now born again, everything has changed through the washing of regeration that took place at coversion.

Eph. 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.

Again, this is not referring to water baptism. Paul is saying that that the Word of God washes and cleanses the soul just as water cleanses the physical body. "The washing of water BY THE WORD.

Offline mclees8

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #47 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 17:07:06 »
Why not? Baptism is baptism.

Why not what ?   Batptism is baptism?  Are you referring to Christs baptism 2000 years ago as a legitimate baptism today?

He was baptized in water by John, and He was filled with the Holy Spirit, both that are done today. So yes?


I said that assuming Christ babtism for believers today is not bbiblical just as it was not biblical then bcause Christ Himself commanded us to be baptized by that apostles. If is was not necessary he would not have commanded them to do it. It would have not been needed. Hence it is biblical to be baptized and not biblical that Christ baptism was good for all believers.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 17:09:27 by mclees8 »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #48 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 18:20:09 »
The baptism of Christ signified the Cross, the death, burial, and resurrection that He would soon face to redeem mankind. It signifies the same with us by faith in His finished work.

When Christ asked the 12 if they could be baptized with the same baptism as He, Christ was referring to the suffering of the Cross that all believers will encounter from following Christ. The 12 didn't understand that, but later they fully understood.

2Peter 3:14-16
"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
 
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
 
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Paul continously spoke of the suffering we must endure, as did Christ, and the longsuffering of the Lord who has extended Grace in order to bring the unredeemed to Himself.


The baptism of Christ was His annointing for His ministry, and proof to the people that He was the One John spoke of. Christ had no sin, He wasn't baptized through repentance of sin. His baptism was His annointing for the suffering to come for mankind.

The water baptism that we partake is our confession of faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Saviour. Salvation comes from the heart as Paul said, it cannot be seen, water baptism is a picture of the spiritual baptism (baptism into Christ-- spoken of by Paul) that took place when we believed. Water baptism was essential to the Apostles, it was proof of the unseen, a display of faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Paul said that we have been baptized into His death and the old man is cucified with Him. This is a spiritual baptism, of which, water baptism is a type.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #49 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 21:00:35 »
And once again we see how the Scriptures always wind up in a tangled web, with some things being ignored or discarded. There are so many things that they tell us we must do in order to have salvation. We must "Eat His body and drink His blood"; we must be baptized; we must believe in the spirit; we are saved by faith; we must do good works; we are judged by our actions, and so on, and so on, and so on. And then we are told by some that no, none of those things are required. Hey, I have a good idea, why not believe, accept, and do them all? 
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 21:06:39 by Ladonia »

Offline allfhm

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #50 on: Wed Oct 21, 2015 - 21:50:30 »
And once again we see how the Scriptures always wind up in a tangled web, with some things being ignored or discarded. There are so many things that they tell us we must do in order to have salvation. We must "Eat His body and drink His blood"; we must be baptized; we must believe in the spirit; we are saved by faith; we must do good works; we are judged by our actions, and so on, and so on, and so on. And then we are told by some that no, none of those things are required. Hey, I have a good idea, why not believe, accept, and do them all?

According to you it's just as hard to get into heaven after Jesus's sacrifice than before.  It sounds like the people before Jesus's sacrifice had just as hard a time as we do now.  What did Jesus die for then?  Also, all the things you listed for salvation are not true.

Offline wincam

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #51 on: Thu Oct 22, 2015 - 04:27:06 »
not just water and not just spirit but water and the spirit according to [Acts.8:36][Jn.3:5] - wincam

Offline chosenone

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #52 on: Thu Oct 22, 2015 - 07:08:23 »
not just water and not just spirit but water and the spirit according to [Acts.8:36][Jn.3:5] - wincam
 

Jesus is clearly referring to our natural and then spiritual birth in this verse. It has nothing to do with baptism. 
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 22, 2015 - 10:48:03 by chosenone »

Offline wincam

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #53 on: Thu Oct 22, 2015 - 10:51:41 »
not just water and not just spirit but water and the spirit according to [Acts.8:36][Jn.3:5] - wincam
 

Jesus is clearly referring to our natural and then spiritual birth in this verse. It has nothing to do with baptism.

even if so how about Acts.8:36-38 - wincam

Offline allfhm

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #54 on: Thu Oct 22, 2015 - 12:04:57 »
not just water and not just spirit but water and the spirit according to [Acts.8:36][Jn.3:5] - wincam

The water refers to when a woman's water breaks during child birth.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #55 on: Thu Oct 22, 2015 - 19:27:54 »
And once again we see how the Scriptures always wind up in a tangled web, with some things being ignored or discarded. There are so many things that they tell us we must do in order to have salvation. We must "Eat His body and drink His blood"; we must be baptized; we must believe in the spirit; we are saved by faith; we must do good works; we are judged by our actions, and so on, and so on, and so on. And then we are told by some that no, none of those things are required. Hey, I have a good idea, why not believe, accept, and do them all?

According to you it's just as hard to get into heaven after Jesus's sacrifice than before.  It sounds like the people before Jesus's sacrifice had just as hard a time as we do now.  What did Jesus die for then?  Also, all the things you listed for salvation are not true.

I don't know where you ever got that idea but Jesus's sacrifice and resulting resurrection are the most pivotal things that ever happened in the history of the world. As for the other things I listed, they are right there in the Scriptures and to me everything matters. For example, baptism is not just a suggestion, but a command (Matt 28:19). And good deeds (John 5:29;Romans 2:6-10; 1 Tim 6:18). If these things did not matter, why were they even mentioned?

Offline kensington

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #56 on: Thu Oct 22, 2015 - 23:24:25 »
Those are all matters of obedience "AFTER" salvation... they are NOT what saves us. 

Offline Catholica

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #57 on: Fri Oct 23, 2015 - 08:37:05 »
Those are all matters of obedience "AFTER" salvation... they are NOT what saves us.

A matter of obedience to get doused in water doesn't sound like the good news to me.

Offline wincam

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #58 on: Fri Oct 23, 2015 - 08:43:41 »
Those are all matters of obedience "AFTER" salvation... they are NOT what saves us.

A matter of obedience to get doused in water doesn't sound like the good news to me.

its got nothing to do with what it sounds like to you imho - wincam

Offline mclees8

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #59 on: Fri Oct 23, 2015 - 10:21:38 »
Those are all matters of obedience "AFTER" salvation... they are NOT what saves us.

A matter of obedience to get doused in water doesn't sound like the good news to me.

Whay not Cath.  To have our sins washed away and be given eternal life sure sounds like good news to me

Dousing seven times in a muddy river cleaned Naman of his leprosy.  That must have been good news to him    ::smile::

Offline Catholica

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #60 on: Fri Oct 23, 2015 - 11:15:08 »
Those are all matters of obedience "AFTER" salvation... they are NOT what saves us.

A matter of obedience to get doused in water doesn't sound like the good news to me.

Whay not Cath.  To have our sins washed away and be given eternal life sure sounds like good news to me

Dousing seven times in a muddy river cleaned Naman of his leprosy.  That must have been good news to him    ::smile::

If baptism is simply an "act of obedience" that simply gets you wet and gives you good feelings, and it doesn't give eternal life or wash away sins, then it doesn't sound like the good news to me.

Imagine if Naaman went and washed and nothing happened except that he got a little cleaner and "publicly professed" that he believed Elisha.  Whoop-de-do.


Offline mclees8

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #61 on: Fri Oct 23, 2015 - 15:36:39 »
Those are all matters of obedience "AFTER" salvation... they are NOT what saves us.

A matter of obedience to get doused in water doesn't sound like the good news to me.

Whay not Cath.  To have our sins washed away and be given eternal life sure sounds like good news to me

Dousing seven times in a muddy river cleaned Naman of his leprosy.  That must have been good news to him    ::smile::

If baptism is simply an "act of obedience" that simply gets you wet and gives you good feelings, and it doesn't give eternal life or wash away sins, then it doesn't sound like the good news to me.

Imagine if Naaman went and washed and nothing happened except that he got a little cleaner and "publicly professed" that he believed Elisha.  Whoop-de-do.

Well I would most certainly agree that in and of itself water Baptism just gets you wet.  Something has to take place in the heart that causes you to trust in Christ first. That's the true good news. This language from you seems strange from one who puts so much faith in the superficial things of religion.  I thought you believed that salvation came when you were infant sprinkled. That certainly does not sound like good news either. 

Offline Catholica

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #62 on: Fri Oct 23, 2015 - 15:44:56 »
Those are all matters of obedience "AFTER" salvation... they are NOT what saves us.

A matter of obedience to get doused in water doesn't sound like the good news to me.

Whay not Cath.  To have our sins washed away and be given eternal life sure sounds like good news to me

Dousing seven times in a muddy river cleaned Naman of his leprosy.  That must have been good news to him    ::smile::

If baptism is simply an "act of obedience" that simply gets you wet and gives you good feelings, and it doesn't give eternal life or wash away sins, then it doesn't sound like the good news to me.

Imagine if Naaman went and washed and nothing happened except that he got a little cleaner and "publicly professed" that he believed Elisha.  Whoop-de-do.

Well I would most certainly agree that in and of itself water Baptism just gets you wet.  Something has to take place in the heart that causes you to trust in Christ first. That's the true good news. This language from you seems strange from one who puts so much faith in the superficial things of religion.  I thought you believed that salvation came when you were infant sprinkled. That certainly does not sound like good news either.

Mike, you are not following the conversation. 

Offline mclees8

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #63 on: Fri Oct 23, 2015 - 16:22:50 »
Those are all matters of obedience "AFTER" salvation... they are NOT what saves us.

A matter of obedience to get doused in water doesn't sound like the good news to me.

Whay not Cath.  To have our sins washed away and be given eternal life sure sounds like good news to me

Dousing seven times in a muddy river cleaned Naman of his leprosy.  That must have been good news to him    ::smile::

If baptism is simply an "act of obedience" that simply gets you wet and gives you good feelings, and it doesn't give eternal life or wash away sins, then it doesn't sound like the good news to me.

Imagine if Naaman went and washed and nothing happened except that he got a little cleaner and "publicly professed" that he believed Elisha.  Whoop-de-do.

Well I would most certainly agree that in and of itself water Baptism just gets you wet.  Something has to take place in the heart that causes you to trust in Christ first. That's the true good news. This language from you seems strange from one who puts so much faith in the superficial things of religion.  I thought you believed that salvation came when you were infant sprinkled. That certainly does not sound like good news either.

Mike, you are not following the conversation.

Well Cath did you not just make this statement.

If baptism is simply an "act of obedience" that simply gets you wet and gives you good feelings, and it doesn't give eternal life or wash away sins, then it doesn't sound like the good news to me.


What did I miss.  If someone said to me go and be dipped in the river you will be saved, I would agree with you.  How do you say I am not following the conversation. No there is no good news in that.

Offline kensington

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #64 on: Fri Oct 23, 2015 - 17:45:09 »
"A matter of obedience to get doused in water doesn't sound like the good news to me."

Obedience after salvation is really what you based your "works" on isn't it?  Don't you find doing works because God said so an important issue in your walk?  I know I do. 

Baptism is not salvation...  You meet Jesus, Hear the gospel of salvation, receive it as truth, repent, ask forgiveness and by Grace  His blood covers those sins and they are no more... you are forgiven and saved.  Right then.  Saved. 

Baptism is commanded, but the process is not salvation.  It is to bury the Old man, the sinner you were and then rising up from baptism a new man.  It's not simple or dismissive in any way of the Gospel or the good news. 

The Good News is that sinful, dying man... can be saved and cleanse in the blood.  That man then becomes a believer who wants to follow and obey Jesus...  and a first step in that new walk for the believer is to bury the old man in Baptism.

It's an amazing part of being a new child of Christ.  But, it's not a matter of salvation, it's a matter of obedience after salvation.  A wonderful step you take into your walk with Christ.

 





Offline kensington

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #65 on: Fri Oct 23, 2015 - 18:03:39 »
I think perhaps this is what Catholics miss out on with infant baptism.  It's done when they are too young to understand the wonderful Spiritual implications of it within their hearts.  They are told all about it in life and it's accepted.

But, it's not just a douse of water by any means at all.  You know when you go down in the water, that you have chosen to follow Him, and you want to show that and obey, and when the old man is buried and you come up you know you have actually chosen to obey and the witness is inside you forever that you are a believer who will walk in obedience to Him.  It's amazing!

You have done something that He did, that His apostle's did, that believers do.  You have done your first work unto Christ... and you are heading the right way with Him. 

I certainly was not just doused with water...  Christ and I together buried the old sinful man/nature in me when I went down, and a newly regenerated believer was resurrected to a new life in Him when I came up.  NO dousing will do that for you.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #66 on: Fri Oct 23, 2015 - 19:51:25 »
I think perhaps this is what Catholics miss out on with infant baptism.  It's done when they are too young to understand the wonderful Spiritual implications of it within their hearts.  They are told all about it in life and it's accepted.



Until you get older, have done a lot of living and then realize the spiritual implications of the act. But that infant baptism is never negated, it sticks with you always, with our souls receiving that indelible imprint of God. It's what we believe and is how we go about starting our spiritual journey. My whole life has been a walk with God, sometimes poorly it is true, but with redemption always available.

Offline skeeter

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #67 on: Fri Oct 23, 2015 - 20:00:05 »
Those are all matters of obedience "AFTER" salvation... they are NOT what saves us.
A matter of obedience to get doused in water doesn't sound like the good news to me.
Whay not Cath.  To have our sins washed away and be given eternal life sure sounds like good news to me

Dousing seven times in a muddy river cleaned Naman of his leprosy.  That must have been good news to him    ::smile::
If baptism is simply an "act of obedience" that simply gets you wet and gives you good feelings, and it doesn't give eternal life or wash away sins, then it doesn't sound like the good news to me.

Imagine if Naaman went and washed and nothing happened except that he got a little cleaner and "publicly professed" that he believed Elisha. Whoop-de-do.
no, the good news is our sins are washed away with the blood of our Savior.
baptism and Naaman 'washing' in the river are signs of belief in the Living Water whose blood was shed.

Offline skeeter

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #68 on: Fri Oct 23, 2015 - 20:11:49 »
If baptism is simply an "act of obedience" that simply gets you wet and gives you good feelings, and it doesn't give eternal life or wash away sins, then it doesn't sound like the good news to me.

Imagine if Naaman went and washed and nothing happened except that he got a little cleaner and "publicly professed" that he believed Elisha.  Whoop-de-do.

Well I would most certainly agree that in and of itself water Baptism just gets you wet.  Something has to take place in the heart that causes you to trust in Christ first. That's the true good news. This language from you seems strange from one who puts so much faith in the superficial things of religion.  I thought you believed that salvation came when you were infant sprinkled. That certainly does not sound like good news either.
Mike, you are not following the conversation.
Well Cath did you not just make this statement.

If baptism is simply an "act of obedience" that simply gets you wet and gives you good feelings, and it doesn't give eternal life or wash away sins, then it doesn't sound like the good news to me.


What did I miss.  If someone said to me go and be dipped in the river you will be saved, I would agree with you.  How do you say I am not following the conversation. No there is no good news in that.
you are right mclees - if the heart isn't changed to burn for Christ, then one can be sprinkled or dunked every day of their life and it won't change anything.
The heart must change first, then follow with baptism proclaiming to all your bond to Christ.  The  heart of a baby can not change - they can not understand or believe in the sacrifice of Christ.

Offline kensington

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Re: How to get into heaven?
« Reply #69 on: Sat Oct 24, 2015 - 01:56:22 »
"Until you get older, have done a lot of living and then realize the spiritual implications of the act. But that infant baptism is never negated, it sticks with you always, with our souls receiving that indelible imprint of God. It's what we believe and is how we go about starting our spiritual journey. My whole life has been a walk with God, sometimes poorly it is true, but with redemption always available."

How much more excellent to be aware and to participate willingly and openly in Baptism and all that it is for a true believer.  To be redeemed already and to know that your Savior is with you as you choose baptism for yourself, such a Victorious blessed thing.  ::clappingoverhead::  The joy of the Lord fills me when I remember my baptism.

« Last Edit: Sat Oct 24, 2015 - 01:58:48 by kensington »