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Offline Catholica

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I can imagine
« on: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 10:11:45 »
I can imagine a world where everyone was accepted at the Lord's table.  No matter who you were, no matter what you had done, or what you believed, you were able to sit down and share in the Lord's supper.
-----
One person would say to the next, "Isn't it great that we can share this together in unity, and yet retain our individuality?"  The other person would say, "Yes, it's great!  But who is this Jesus character, and why does he walk around here acting as if he is God?"

"What do you mean?" questions the first, with a strange look on his face.  "Jesus IS God."

"What?!  Are you off your rocker?  Jesus is not God..."

"ummmm..."  

"Are you trying to tell me what to believe?  That is against the spirit of this table, that everyone is accepted no matter what they believe.  I believe that Jesus is not God, and you can't tell me that I am wrong", retorts the second, indignantly.

"Calm down now, yes I know that you are allowed to believe what you want.  But please, brother, at least try to be loving."

"Who says that I have to be loving?  Are you trying to force yet another restriction on me?"

"Well, God IS love, and Jesus commands us to love our neighbor."

"There you go, blathering on about Jesus again.  Jesus can't tell me what to do, only God can."

"Well, if Jesus is not God, then why are you interested in sharing His table?"  

"I want to be in community with other believers, and the table is the sign of that unity.  Don't you know what community means?  Community is "common unity"..."

"It is clear to me, brother, that there is no unity here, since you don't believe that Jesus is God, and I do".

The second person says then to the first, "Then it sounds like you should high-tail it out of here."
-----

Around such a table, the constant question in everyone's minds would be about why we are sharing a sign of unity while we are not united.  No one would have any right to state that what they believed is correct.  The resulting conversation, rather than being about God, would have to be about anything BUT God - small talk, the weather, even politics would be talked about before someone talked about God.  

God is the ultimate dividing force, because He is Truth, and because of the fallen nature of man.  Man, almost from the beginning, was tempted to believe that he could be like God: to determine good and evil, right and wrong, truth from falsity, for himself.  Certainly fallen man is not naturally inclined to submit to another human being, whose "opinion" they certainly don't regard as better than their own, but rather (more than likely) "inferior".

Belief will always separate us until we submit in humility to God; only then can we sit around the Lord's table, love the Truth and good gifts that God has bestowed upon us, ponder how good God is for giving us those gifts, and ponder the higher mysteries without needing to argue about them.

In heaven, those who make it there will not formulate their own opinions about God, but will submit to God who is Truth and will partake in the Lord's table with one mind, the mind of God.

That is why I believe that closed communion, with submission to divinely revealed truths, rather than opinions that a person has determined for himself, most closely reflects the heavenly reality of sitting around the Lord's table.

God did not leave us orphans, forced to take a book and interpret it for ourselves.  He gave us the Catholic Church so that we can enjoy this unity, and so that, rather than quarreling between ourselves, we could know that we had the truth in the first place, and thus free our minds to travel deeper into the reality of God, and through that contemplation of God, come to know more fully what God's love is, and to then love God in return.  Our God, who is truth, does not settle for superficial union, but insists on complete union, sharing in the divine nature, a union akin unto the unity that is God Himself, a union in all things, in mind, in love, in spirit.
« Last Edit: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 16:39:46 by Catholica »

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I can imagine
« on: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 10:11:45 »

Offline highrigger

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #1 on: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 13:29:42 »
Quote
can imagine a world where everyone was accepted at the Lord's table.  No matter who you were, no matter what you had done, or what you believed, you were able to sit down and share in the Lord's supper.

Catholica,

You dont have to imagine. That world is available already in my church. IF someone accepts Jesus as their savior and wants to commune with Him at the Lords Table they are welcome. That was the way Jesus accepted people. He did not ask them what they believed in order to deal with them. We actually present Jesus in my church. No rejecting. No demeaning others beliefs. No judging others as sinners.

Jesus said the Kingdom of God is "among you" and "within you" and it is. I am so thankful my church teaches it as Jesus did and turns no sincere christian away from Jesus. Never would he do that.

Can you imagine Jesus quizzing someone to determine if they were "worthy"?  One would accept that from the pharisees of that time, but never Jesus.

The NT does not teach us to do that. Here is Raymond Brown to explain:

"Most of the NT was written before the major breaks in 'koinia'. detectable in the second century, and so NT
diversity cannot be used to justify Christian division today. We modern Christians have broken 'koinonia' with
each other, for, explicitly or implicitly, we have excommunicated and/or stated that other christians are
disloyal to the will of Christ in major issues. Such a divided situation does not have NT approbation."
Raymond Brown, The Churches The Apostles Left Behind, p 148. Approved with the Imprimatur.

Mere beliefs separate us only if one side insists upon it. No reason for it at all. Peace, JohnR

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #1 on: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 13:29:42 »

Offline Hehealedme

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #2 on: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 13:35:43 »
.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 08, 2014 - 14:24:07 by Hehealedme »

Offline chosenone

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #3 on: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 13:51:05 »
Quote
can imagine a world where everyone was accepted at the Lord's table.  No matter who you were, no matter what you had done, or what you believed, you were able to sit down and share in the Lord's supper.

Catholica,

You dont have to imagine. That world is available already in my church. IF someone accepts Jesus as their savior and wants to commune with Him at the Lords Table they are welcome. That was the way Jesus accepted people. He did not ask them what they believed in order to deal with them. We actually present Jesus in my church. No rejecting. No demeaning others beliefs. No judging others as sinners.

Jesus said the Kingdom of God is "among you" and "within you" and it is. I am so thankful my church teaches it as Jesus did and turns no sincere christian away from Jesus. Never would he do that.

Can you imagine Jesus quizzing someone to determine if they were "worthy"?  One would accept that from the pharisees of that time, but never Jesus.

The NT does not teach us to do that. Here is Raymond Brown to explain:

"Most of the NT was written before the major breaks in 'koinia'. detectable in the second century, and so NT
diversity cannot be used to justify Christian division today. We modern Christians have broken 'koinonia' with
each other, for, explicitly or implicitly, we have excommunicated and/or stated that other christians are
disloyal to the will of Christ in major issues. Such a divided situation does not have NT approbation."
Raymond Brown, The Churches The Apostles Left Behind, p 148. Approved with the Imprimatur.

Mere beliefs separate us only if one side insists upon it. No reason for it at all. Peace, JohnR


 Yep same as in my church. All are encouraged to accept Jesus as their saviour, and take communion if they have done. ::smile::

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #3 on: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 13:51:05 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #4 on: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 13:53:14 »
Oh Catholica, from the first word of this text, I thought, this is so true!...I was in complete agreement.
That is until I read the last paragraph... ::pondering::
God did NOT give us the catholic church. He gave us His Son Jesus (His Word) to die for our sins!...
Men gave us the catholic church, that did not come from God... ::reading::

So right. The body of Christ, His church, is for all believers.

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #4 on: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 13:53:14 »



Offline Catholica

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #5 on: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 14:00:15 »
Oh Catholica, from the first word of this text, I thought, this is so true!...I was in complete agreement.
That is until I read the last paragraph... ::pondering::
God did NOT give us the catholic church. He gave us His Son Jesus (His Word) to die for our sins!...
Men gave us the catholic church, that did not come from God... ::reading::

Hi Hehealedme,

I really believe that the Lord's supper is a sacrament of communion, that we are meant to be in one mind and heart and spirit.  If there were not an authority given by God that we as Christians could rely upon, outside of ourselves, then we would be in the same situation as sort of a false communion.  I can see no other possible community that could possibly be founded by God to give us such authority than the Catholic Church.  Perhaps your opinion varies, but my experience is that I love my faith and I find so much blessing in it, so much love, such intimacy with Jesus, and it speaks to me so much as a person, that I can't see myself ever wanting to leave, and by the grace of God, I will persevere.

I pray that your faith tradition enhances your life richly and brings you into intimacy with God as well.

God Bless,

Andre

Offline highrigger

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #6 on: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 14:04:55 »
Quote
I can see no other possible community that could possibly be founded by God to give us such authority than the Catholic Church.  Perhaps your opinion varies, but my experience is that I love my faith and I find so much blessing in it, so much love, such intimacy with Jesus, and it speaks to me so much as a person, that I can't see myself ever wanting to leave,

Catholica,

No one is saying you should leave your church. Of course others think the same about their church and of course I do about mine. The point is if one christian group should turn others away from the Lords Table when such a thing is not taught by the NT according to Raymond Brown one of the top Catholic Scholars speaking with the Imprimatur.

Do you have another Catholic scholar who disgrees with him? Peace, JohnR

Offline Catholica

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #7 on: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 14:13:15 »
Quote
can imagine a world where everyone was accepted at the Lord's table.  No matter who you were, no matter what you had done, or what you believed, you were able to sit down and share in the Lord's supper.

Catholica,

You dont have to imagine. That world is available already in my church. IF someone accepts Jesus as their savior and wants to commune with Him at the Lords Table they are welcome. That was the way Jesus accepted people. He did not ask them what they believed in order to deal with them. We actually present Jesus in my church. No rejecting. No demeaning others beliefs. No judging others as sinners.

Yet when it came down to the belief that one must eat His flesh and drink His blood, for His flesh is true food and His blood is true drink, and even said that if they did not eat it, they had no life inside them, they could not accept it, yet Jesus allowed them to walk away.  Jesus accepted people, sinners and all, and wanted to purify them, but also insisted upon their repentance from sin, and also said that He was the only way, and that if people rejected the ones He sent, they rejected Him and the Father.

Jesus was a teacher, and people needed to accept his teaching.  He didn't ask them what they believed, he just stated the truth and called for people to repent, or to go and sin no more.  They accepted Jesus or they did not, and some went away sad, and Jesus did not prevent them.

For those who could not accept what Jesus was saying, they stayed out of communion with Jesus, who is the Truth.

Jesus said the Kingdom of God is "among you" and "within you" and it is. I am so thankful my church teaches it as Jesus did and turns no sincere christian away from Jesus. Never would he do that.

The Catholic Church turns no one away, but like Jesus, insists that people turn toward the truth and real communion, not a superficial communion of people with "good intent".

Mere beliefs separate us only if one side insists upon it. No reason for it at all.

...Nietzsche agrees with you...which is scary...

Are you really saying that we should not insist on the truth?  Do you not believe in absolute truth?
« Last Edit: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 17:05:35 by Catholica »

Offline Catholica

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #8 on: Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 14:17:23 »
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I can see no other possible community that could possibly be founded by God to give us such authority than the Catholic Church.  Perhaps your opinion varies, but my experience is that I love my faith and I find so much blessing in it, so much love, such intimacy with Jesus, and it speaks to me so much as a person, that I can't see myself ever wanting to leave,

Catholica,

No one is saying you should leave your church. Of course others think the same about their church and of course I do about mine. The point is if one christian group should turn others away from the Lords Table when such a thing is not taught by the NT according to Raymond Brown one of the top Catholic Scholars speaking with the Imprimatur.

Do you have another Catholic scholar who disgrees with him? Peace, JohnR

You mistake Fr. Brown's research for something that actually pertains to divine faith.  Fr. Brown is simply doing his human best to understand the Bible from a historical standpoint.  As much as his beliefs of what the Bible says are in contrast with what the Catholic Church teaches, Fr. Brown may have come to a fine conclusion but what he is saying is false with regard to reality.

Offline Swiss_Guard

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #9 on: Tue Nov 08, 2011 - 16:23:00 »
Men gave us the catholic church, that did not come from God... ::reading::
And I'm guessing that God DID give us your church?

Offline Ladonia

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #10 on: Fri Nov 11, 2011 - 20:47:26 »
Men gave us the catholic church, that did not come from God... ::reading::
And I'm guessing that God DID give us your church?

It always comes down to that statement, dosen't it Swiss Guard. ::pondering:: "Men gave us the Catholic Church". UMMMMMMMM.......And all along I was thinking it WAS God, with the Holy Spirit as it's guide. Oh well!

Offline mclees8

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #11 on: Sat Nov 12, 2011 - 02:42:57 »
Men gave us the catholic church, that did not come from God... ::reading::
And I'm guessing that God DID give us your church?

It always comes down to that statement, dosen't it Swiss Guard. ::pondering:: "Men gave us the Catholic Church". UMMMMMMMM.......And all along I was thinking it WAS God, with the Holy Spirit as it's guide. Oh well!

Well lets say this right then. Men gave us the RCC and that didnot come from God

Offline Ladonia

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #12 on: Sat Nov 12, 2011 - 09:32:04 »
Men gave us the catholic church, that did not come from God... ::reading::
And I'm guessing that God DID give us your church?

It always comes down to that statement, dosen't it Swiss Guard. ::pondering:: "Men gave us the Catholic Church". UMMMMMMMM.......And all along I was thinking it WAS God, with the Holy Spirit as it's guide. Oh well!

Well lets say this right then. Men gave us the RCC and that didnot come from God

So then, God would allow a lie to continue for so long? I don't think so. There must be something there, after all, even with the "Great Schism" of 1054, our Eastern bretheren STILL kept the basic teachings as their doctrine, the same one that had been in effect up untill that point. I love you Mcclees8, but God is in control and "His will" will be done.

Offline FireSword

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #13 on: Sat Nov 12, 2011 - 18:59:23 »
Men gave us the catholic church, that did not come from God... ::reading::
And I'm guessing that God DID give us your church?

It always comes down to that statement, dosen't it Swiss Guard. ::pondering:: "Men gave us the Catholic Church". UMMMMMMMM.......And all along I was thinking it WAS God, with the Holy Spirit as it's guide. Oh well!

Well lets say this right then. Men gave us the RCC and that didnot come from God

So then, God would allow a lie to continue for so long? I don't think so. There must be something there, after all, even with the "Great Schism" of 1054, our Eastern bretheren STILL kept the basic teachings as their doctrine, the same one that had been in effect up untill that point. I love you Mcclees8, but God is in control and "His will" will be done.

The same can be said about protestant movement. This movement has flourished, to the point of bringing liberty to the west. There must be something there?

But the next reformation will bring even greater liberty and remove some long held doctrines, that need to be removed from the church, so that God can move and bring his kingdom in greater measure.



Offline highrigger

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #14 on: Sun Nov 13, 2011 - 17:39:41 »
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Yet when it came down to the belief that one must eat His flesh and drink His blood, for His flesh is true food and His blood is true drink, and even said that if they did not eat it, they had no life inside them, they could not accept it, yet Jesus allowed them to walk away.  Jesus accepted people, sinners and all, and wanted to purify them, but also insisted upon their repentance from sin, and also said that He was the only way, and that if people rejected the ones He sent, they rejected Him and the Father.

Catholica,

He explained what He meant in John 6:63 and everyone was satisfied. Protestants accept what He said but we accept it as Paul explains it in 1 Cor 15:42-51. spritual body and not physical body. In fact I agree with how your Pope explains it. That is not a reason and your church does not give it as a reason.

Quote
The Catholic Church turns no one away, but like Jesus, insists that people turn toward the truth and real communion, not a superficial communion of people with "good intent".


You turn them away from the eucharist which with one breath you say is really Jesus who never turned anyway from himself, and with the other breath says he doesnt do the same anymore.  You are the one saying our communion is "superficial' when you know nothing about it except it does not take place in your church.

Quote
...Nietzsche agrees with you...which is scary...

Are you really saying that we should not insist on the truth?  Do you not believe in absolute truth?

I am saying we need not agree on ALL truth. It is sufficient to agree that Jesus is our Lord. I am thankful my church understands that simple view. I think Jesus would approve. He never turned anyone away from Himself. Peace, JohnR

Offline Catholica

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #15 on: Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 05:43:34 »
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...Nietzsche agrees with you...which is scary...

Are you really saying that we should not insist on the truth?  Do you not believe in absolute truth?

I am saying we need not agree on ALL truth. It is sufficient to agree that Jesus is our Lord. I am thankful my church understands that simple view. I think Jesus would approve. He never turned anyone away from Himself. Peace, JohnR

That is where we differ.  We believe that if God revealed something to be true, that He meant for everyone to believe it.  It is in knowing God that we can love him.

Do you realize that your church would allow the demons to receive communion if they could?  They also believe that Jesus is Lord.

It is a sad fact, but the Methodist Church as it stands is on its death bed.  New fangled churches more fun for our youth, who so often tend toward narcissism and worldliness are abandoning yours and other more traditional sects for those which are more fun, more like the world, with rock bands, coffee, younger pastors.  Or they are going to those churches with celebrity pastors.  All this and they are being led astray by the same open communion which you treasure, as if it doesn't matter who they listen to as long as they teach that Jesus is Lord.  A demon could teach that.

Offline FireSword

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #16 on: Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 13:09:15 »
Jesus was 30 when he started preaching. I think younger preachers are good, I find they have more energy and grace.

Rock bands bring glory to Jesus. The commandments don't say, thou shalt not have rock bands.

The church has abandoned the young people for a young time, but when the church caters slightly to the youth, some christians complain.

Offline highrigger

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #17 on: Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 11:32:04 »
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That is where we differ.  We believe that if God revealed something to be true, that He meant for everyone to believe it.  It is in knowing God that we can love him.

Catholica,

Even if your church taught truth, many Catholics do not accept all the so called truth you propose, yet they are not banned. You are not consistent. Fact is only the membership rolls matter. Why dont you just admit it?

Quote
Do you realize that your church would allow the demons to receive communion if they could?  They also believe that Jesus is Lord

We worship Jesus as Lord. There is a difference.

Quote
It is a sad fact, but the Methodist Church as it stands is on its death bed.  New fangled churches more fun for our youth, who so often tend toward narcissism and worldliness are abandoning yours and other more traditional sects for those which are more fun, more like the world, with rock bands, coffee, younger pastors.  Or they are going to those churches with celebrity pastors.  All this and they are being led astray by the same open communion which you treasure, as if it doesn't matter who they listen to as long as they teach that Jesus is Lord.  A demon could teach that.

You seem to know a lot about those demons. But we have rock bands, coffee and young well trained pastors. We worship Jesus as Lord and not a church. If you want to ban other christians that is your business, but I am very thinkful my church welcomes all christians - no demons. Remember that the NT provides no approval for you shamelful practice of rejecting sincere christians.
You made it up yourself. So you live with it. Peace, JohnR

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #18 on: Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 14:18:06 »
Quote
That is where we differ.  We believe that if God revealed something to be true, that He meant for everyone to believe it.  It is in knowing God that we can love him.

Catholica,

Even if your church taught truth, many Catholics do not accept all the so called truth you propose, yet they are not banned. You are not consistent. Fact is only the membership rolls matter. Why dont you just admit it?

Quote
Do you realize that your church would allow the demons to receive communion if they could?  They also believe that Jesus is Lord

We worship Jesus as Lord. There is a difference.

Quote
It is a sad fact, but the Methodist Church as it stands is on its death bed.  New fangled churches more fun for our youth, who so often tend toward narcissism and worldliness are abandoning yours and other more traditional sects for those which are more fun, more like the world, with rock bands, coffee, younger pastors.  Or they are going to those churches with celebrity pastors.  All this and they are being led astray by the same open communion which you treasure, as if it doesn't matter who they listen to as long as they teach that Jesus is Lord.  A demon could teach that.

You seem to know a lot about those demons. But we have rock bands, coffee and young well trained pastors. We worship Jesus as Lord and not a church. If you want to ban other christians that is your business, but I am very thinkful my church welcomes all christians - no demons. Remember that the NT provides no approval for you shamelful practice of rejecting sincere christians.
You made it up yourself. So you live with it. Peace, JohnR

Unfortunately for you - the Lord's Table doesn't exist in your ecclesial community.
The Lord's Table contains the Holy Sacrifice of the Lamb - the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yours only contains oyster crackers and grape juice . . .
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 12:37:10 by Elvisman »

Offline Giver

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #19 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 06:04:40 »
Jesus gave us his Holy Spirit, and himself to teach and guide us. 

(John 10:1-5)"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

(John 14:26) “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.

Offline highrigger

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #20 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 12:25:53 »
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Jesus did not say one needed to belong to any certain church to love him.

Giver,

But Catholica asserts that if we are wrong on any teeny doctrine, He does not want us to approach his communion table.

Is that the love he preached? Peace, JohnR

Elvisman

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #21 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 12:44:25 »
Jesus gave us his Holy Spirit, and himself to teach and guide us.  

(John 10:1-5)"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

(John 14:26) “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.

Elvisman

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #22 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 12:56:05 »
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Jesus did not say one needed to belong to any certain church to love him.

Giver,

But Catholica asserts that if we are wrong on any teeny doctrine, He does not want us to approach his communion table.

Is that the love he preached? Peace, JohnR

That's PRECISELY what he preached.

In Luke 10:16, he ECXPLICITLY said of his Church:
“The one who listens to YOU listens to ME, and the one who rejects YOU rejects ME; and he who rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent me.

Offline Giver

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #23 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 13:10:04 »
Jesus gave us his Holy Spirit, and himself to teach and guide us.  

(John 10:1-5)"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

(John 14:26) “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.

Offline Josiah

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #24 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 13:16:31 »

In Luke 10:16, he ECXPLICITLY said of his Church:
“The one who listens to YOU listens to ME, and the one who rejects YOU rejects ME; and he who rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent me.

Elvisman

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #25 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 13:24:47 »
No one said one should reject God’s church.  The only question is what is God’s Church?

God’s Church: are those who hear the Word of God and live that Word.

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers.  You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.

Offline Josiah

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #26 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 13:37:07 »


Can you point me to that Church today?
The answer CANNOT be a conglomeration of ecclesial communities that ALL have different doctrines.  It must be a unified, universal monolith - not a set of splintered, bickering sects.
Jesus prayed that his Church remain ONE.  Do you honestly think that God wouldn't answer the prayer of his Son?


... so, according to you, we need to look for some denomination that is in unity.  Okay.  With what is The Catholic Church in unity?  

Yes, we all know, it's in unity with ITSELF (well, officially, formally, institutionally, and exclusively in those areas where it itself alone currently declares it good to be in agreement anyway), sure - but then the LDS agrees with ITSELF, too - just as much as the RCC does (officially, formally, institutionally, and exclusively in those areas where it itself alone currently declares it good to be in agreement).  In fact, can you show me ANY denomination that doesn't have unity with ITSELF, just like the "unity" that the RC denomination has - with itself (officially, formally, institutionally, and exclusively in those areas that it itself alone currently regards as good for agreement)?  Frankly, my friend, I  can't think of a denomination that has unity BEYOND it self less than the RCC one does.   So, by your rubric, it would be at the top of the list of denominations to reject.




Quote from: Josiah

Wrong.

IF you actually read the verse, you'd know what all others do.
Jesus NEVER remotely said this to "his church."
AND CERTAINLY not to the RC Denomination.

A little honesty goes a LONG way in these discussions....





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« Last Edit: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 13:45:08 by Josiah »

Elvisman

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #27 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 13:52:56 »
... so, according to you, we need to look for some denomination that is in unity.  Okay.  With what is The Catholic Church in unity?
EVERYTHING

Yes, we all know, it's in unity with ITSELF (well, officially, formally, institutionally, and exclusively in those areas where it itself alone currently declares it good to be in agreement anyway), sure - but then the LDS agrees with ITSELF, too - just as much as the RCC does (officially, formally, institutionally, and exclusively in those areas where it itself alone currently declares it good to be in agreement).  In fact, can you show me ANY denomination that doesn't have unity with ITSELF, just like the "unity" that the RC denomination has - with itself (officially, formally, institutionally, and exclusively in those areas that it itself alone currently regards as good for agreement)?  Frankly, my friend, I  can't think of a denomination that has unity BEYOND it self less than the RCC one does.   So, by your rubric, it would be at the top of the list of denominations to reject.

The answer is so simple - I am STUNNED that you don't know it:
The Catholic Church can trace itself ALL the way back to the Apostles.

The LDS can only go back about 150 years.
EVERY SINGLE splintered Protestant denomination can only go back about 500 years.
You ALL expire beyond that.
We DON'T.

Offline Giver

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #28 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 14:02:30 »
No one said one should reject God’s church.  The only question is what is God’s Church?

God’s Church: are those who hear the Word of God and live that Word.

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers.  You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.

Offline Josiah

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #29 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 14:12:44 »


... so, according to you, we need to look for some denomination that is in unity.  Okay.  With what is The Catholic Church in unity?


EVERYTHING


Haha!   
Your denomination is in unity with only one:  ITSELF.
And even that is just official, formal, institutional, and limited to those items that it itself alone currently regards as good to agree on.

You can't name another denomination that has LESS unity than yours does.  Every one you can name has AT LEAST as much unity as yours does.   

So, by your rubric, your denomination would be at the bottom of the list of possible true churches.




Quote


Yes, we all know, it's in unity with ITSELF (well, officially, formally, institutionally, and exclusively in those areas where it itself alone currently declares it good to be in agreement anyway), sure - but then the LDS agrees with ITSELF, too - just as much as the RCC does (officially, formally, institutionally, and exclusively in those areas where it itself alone currently declares it good to be in agreement).  In fact, can you show me ANY denomination that doesn't have unity with ITSELF, just like the "unity" that the RC denomination has - with itself (officially, formally, institutionally, and exclusively in those areas that it itself alone currently regards as good for agreement)?  Frankly, my friend, I  can't think of a denomination that has unity BEYOND it self less than the RCC one does.   So, by your rubric, it would be at the top of the list of denominations to reject.




The Catholic Church can trace itself ALL the way back to the Apostles.

Entirely irrelevant to anything I posted.   

A CLAIM of self for self, that has nothing to do with unity.   Just a diversion attempt.





.

Elvisman

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #30 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 14:31:19 »
I have been looking for that church for over thirty years. 

When I asked Jesus how could it be for me to stay submitted to the Catholic Church, after he had been teaching me truths that the Church did not teach, and did not live?  Jesus told me to cooperate with don’t fight.  He then told me I was no longer to be under the headship of the Catholic Church.

Later Jesus told me, this was thirty some years ago, that a time was coming soon when man would suffer more than he has ever suffered.  I was to give a word and leave.  Out of that word a community would grow.  He wanted a place of safety for his people.

Ummm . . . can YOU tell ME which "truths" Jesus taught you that weren't being taught in his Catholic Church?

I see that you apparently believe that Jesus is revealing things to you that are unbiblicalNOWHERE do I read in Scripture that Giver is to build a community that is a safe haven for his people . . .

Elvisman

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #31 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 14:36:04 »
I have been looking for that church for over thirty years. 

When I asked Jesus how could it be for me to stay submitted to the Catholic Church, after he had been teaching me truths that the Church did not teach, and did not live?  Jesus told me to cooperate with don’t fight.  He then told me I was no longer to be under the headship of the Catholic Church.

Later Jesus told me, this was thirty some years ago, that a time was coming soon when man would suffer more than he has ever suffered.  I was to give a word and leave.  Out of that word a community would grow.  He wanted a place of safety for his people.

Ummm . . . can YOU tell ME which "truths" Jesus taught you that weren't being taught in his Catholic Church?

I see that you apparently believe that Jesus is revealing things to you that are unbiblicalNOWHERE do I read in Scripture that Giver is to build a community that is a safe haven for his people . . .

Offline highrigger

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #32 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 14:42:00 »
Quote
The Catholic Church can trace itself ALL the way back to the Apostles.

Elvisman,

No you cannot. You have only myths and fabricated bishops lists. Those dont count.

Fact is you cannot connect your church to the apostles any more than any other church.

Here is how the great Catholic historian Raymond Brown defines apostolic succession.

"Apostolic Succession concerns the fact that the bishops eventually took over the pastoral tasks of the apostles;
It does not involve HOW the early bishops were chosen or appointed. We know little about that, not even being
certain that there was a formal action designating them."

Raymond Brown, 101 Questions and Answers On The Bible. page 120. Approved for publication with the Imprimatur.

You CCC does not refute this definition. The only reason your Pope is a successor to Peter or the apostles is because he fits his definition.  Of course the bishops of my church fit also. They also took over the pastoral tasks of the apostles. As a matter of fact the evangelical pastors fit also no less than your church.

You may continue with your myths and fabricated documents if you wish but we know better. Peace, JohnR

Offline Giver

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #33 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 15:35:01 »
I have been looking for that church for over thirty years. 

When I asked Jesus how could it be for me to stay submitted to the Catholic Church, after he had been teaching me truths that the Church did not teach, and did not live?  Jesus told me to cooperate with don’t fight.  He then told me I was no longer to be under the headship of the Catholic Church.

Later Jesus told me, this was thirty some years ago, that a time was coming soon when man would suffer more than he has ever suffered.  I was to give a word and leave.  Out of that word a community would grow.  He wanted a place of safety for his people.

Ummm . . . can YOU tell ME which "truths" Jesus taught you that weren't being taught in his Catholic Church?

I see that you apparently believe that Jesus is revealing things to you that are unbiblicalNOWHERE do I read in Scripture that Giver is to build a community that is a safe haven for his people . . .
(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers.  You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.

Offline highrigger

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Re: I can imagine
« Reply #34 on: Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 15:41:14 »
Quote

Ummm . . . can YOU tell ME which "truths" Jesus taught you that weren't being taught in his Catholic Church?

Elvisman,

The truth is that Peter was never a bishop of Rome or anywhere. The Roman church had no single leadership (bishop) until the mid second century.

The truth is that your bishops have no more valid connection to the apostles than any other church.
Peace, JohnR