Immaculate Conception

[Cally]

In the Bible it says that Christ was born not of corruptible seed, and had to be without sin to be the perfect sin offering.

If Mary was sinless, why couldn't she have been the sin offering?

Revelation--5:4 And I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open the book, or to look in it.
5:5 One of the elders said to me, "Don't weep. Behold, the Lion who is of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome; he who opens the book and its seven seals."

Only Christ is worthy.

[broach972]

In the Bible it says that Christ was born not of corruptible seed, and had to be without sin to be the perfect sin offering.

If Mary was sinless, why couldn't she have been the sin offering?

Revelation--5:4 And I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open the book, or to look in it.
5:5 One of the elders said to me, "Don't weep. Behold, the Lion who is of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome; he who opens the book and its seven seals."

Only Christ is worthy.

Well, she was not God incarnate for one, and she was not sinless of her own accord.  I get the impression you don't know much about the doctrine that relates to this subject.  Allow me to offer the following resource.  It should explain everything.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

And I agree, only Christ is worthy....

[Amo]

                            9  THE NATURE OF CHRIST

Immaculate Conception

THE DOCTRINE

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."
"The Blessed Virgin Mary . . ." The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.
". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.
". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining in her soul to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.
". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.
Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VII
Copyright © 1910

According to the church of Rome, in the above explanation of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was seperated from the rest of humanity by God. She did not inherit that which all the rest of humanity inherited through Adam and Eve, when they fell in the garden. That is to say, she did not have a fallen, sinful nature. This doctrine is wholly extra biblical. It has no foundation in the scriptures at all, and for this reason, we will not even address the issue of whether it is biblical or not. We will examine however, it's effects upon the heart of the gospel message to this fallen world.

Luke 1:28-35  28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

As is apparent from the scriptures above, the conception of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was unlike that of any other of the human race. God himself was Jesus' Father. This is the foundation of the mystery of Godliness. This truth is the salvation of humanity. However, it is not this truth alone that is our salvation, but also the truth that Christ's mother, was one of us. God became a man. Divinity and humanity were united in Christ, bridging the gap created between God and humanity through the disobedience of our first parents.

Gen 22:17-18  17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

2 Tim 2: 7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. 8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Christ took upon himself the seed of Abraham, and the seed of David, according to the flesh. These men did not have immaculate conceptions. They were sinners, just as you and I are. Yes, Just as Mary was also. If in fact, Mary was not one of us, then Christ did not unite himself to the entirety of the human race, that was, is, and always will be, this side of heaven, in desperate need of salvation. The false doctrine of the immaculate conception is yet another doctrine of the church of Rome which separates humanity from their Savior. This doctrine completely undermines the entire gospel message.

Jesus Christ became one of us, in order to save us from the sinful flesh that we inherited from our first parents. This He did, by crucifying the deeds of the flesh, and allowing the deeds of his Father to be fulfilled within him. This is what makes it possible for us to pick up the cross and follow him. However, if Christ did not even have our flesh, how could he possibly have conquered the sins of the flesh that we struggle with, and ask us to follow him? He could not, and he would not. To the contrary, it was for this very purpose that he took upon himself our very own flesh, and nature, yet without sin. This is our salvation.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

As the book of Hebrews points out, it is the very fact that Jesus Christ became completely one of us, that qualifies him to be our high priest in the heavenly sanctuary. Because he knows and completely understands us, he ever liveth to make intercession for us. (Heb. 7: 25-27) Christ took upon himself our fallen natures, that he might redeem us from this very nature, or flesh if you will. He fought and won this battle with the flesh on our behalf, seeing that we could never have accomplished this victory. Although he took upon himself our fallen nature, Christ never sinned, and this is our salvation.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Our Lord and Savior condemned sin in the flesh, by living in our very flesh, but never fulfilling the desires of the flesh. By depending completely on his heavenly Father, and the power of His Holy Spirit, Christ continually crucified the desires of the flesh, thereby fulfilling the will of his Father. This he did until it lead him to the cross, where he was literally crucified for the sins of the world. Christ did not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Now those who wish to do so, may lay down their lives at the foot of the cross with their Lord and Savior, and pick up the cross and follow Jesus. Christ condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in those who choose to follow him, and walk in the Spirit, instead of the flesh.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

The Lord Jesus Christ did nothing of himself. For he was God, and man. If he lived by the strength of his own divinity, then he would not be our salvation, for we have no divinity from within ourselves to live with. If he lived, or walked by the flesh, then he could not be our salvation, for he would have lived, or walked in sin. But no, Christ lived, and walked by the Spirit, fulfilling the will of the Father. This is our salvation. Now we can do the same in Christ.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If we abide in Christ, first and foremost being crucified with him, then he may abide in us through the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Just as he abode in his Father as one of us, so may we abide in him unto salvation.

Phil 2: 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus crucified the deeds of the flesh all his life long, until it led him to the literal cross. The true Christians life, must begin, where Christ's ended, at the cross. When we die in Christ on the cross, we are justified. The law demands the death of the one who breaks it. Therefore Christ has made it possible for us to enter into his death, that the just demands of the law may be fulfilled. When we die with him, we are justified. When he lives in us, we are sanctified. This is the spiritual service of the Christian, to give their bodies as a living sacrifice unto the Lord, that he might dwell within them unto salvation.(Rom. 12:1&2)

Gal 5: 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The true Christian seeks to always walk in the Spirit, and not in the flesh. Of course, it is not possible to walk in the Spirit, unless you have first crucified the flesh. The Christian is only able to crucify the flesh in and through the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one who took our sinful flesh, and crucified it's desires all his life long, resulting in his literal crucifixion. His flesh, was our flesh. If you take this truth away, you destroy the entire gospel message. What good would it do any of us, if Christ crucified some kind of flesh that we have no part of?

II Jn 1: 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The Lord Jesus Christ came in the flesh, our flesh. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception undermines this foundational truth of the gospel message. By teaching this false doctrine, the church of Rome manifest's the spirit of antichrist. This is only right of course, since her doctrines serve the purpose of separating humanity from God, while Christ came to do just the opposite. The scriptures no where indicate that the flesh Christ took upon himself was different from the flesh of the rest of humanity. The scriptures do point out that Christ was of the seed of Abraham, and of David according to the flesh, not of the seed of some human that had no original sin. we will close this chapter with the following verses.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[Cally]

Okay, so the gist of it is, Mary didn't actually sin, but was still guilty of Adam's sin?  

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:12 Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; and so death passed to all men, because all sinned.

What I underlined especially makes it very clear: Anyone who needs a savior from death sinned himself (or herself), , after Adam's seed became corrupted and all inherited the sinful nature. There's no way someone can be without sin and still be sentenced to death.

Catholics agree that Mary needed a savior, and according to this passage that necessarily means that she sinned herself which means she needed him in order to be saved from death also. The sinful nature came through the corruptible seed of Adam which Christ escaped by being conceived of the Holy Spirit--the Bible is clear that that was the only way, and so Christ had no sinful nature, just as God has no sinful nature.

And the spirit of Christ is what enables people to overpower the flesh (conceived with the corruptible seed that is inclined to sin).

[papist1]

Okay, so the gist of it is, Mary didn't actually sin, but was still guilty of Adam's sin? 

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:12 Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; and so death passed to all men, because all sinned.

What I underlined especially makes it very clear: Anyone who needs a savior from death sinned himself (or herself), , after Adam's seed became corrupted and all inherited the sinful nature. There's no way someone can be without sin and still be sentenced to death.

Catholics agree that Mary needed a savior, and according to this passage that necessarily means that she sinned herself which means she needed him in order to be saved from death also. The sinful nature came through the corruptible seed of Adam which Christ escaped by being conceived of the Holy Spirit--the Bible is clear that that was the only way, and so Christ had no sinful nature, just as God has no sinful nature.

And the spirit of Christ is what enables people to overpower the flesh (conceived with the corruptible seed that is inclined to sin).

so, mentally retarded people, insane people and unborn babies are all doomed to hell, even thought they are not capable of understanding what sin is?

Jesus didn't sin nor have the stain of original sin, and he was fully human.

Are you saying that when scripture says the word "all" that it adheres to the entire human race with no exceptions in every circumstance?

please clarify.

peace, papist

[Cally]

Jesus was fully human, but he was conceived of the Holy Spirit, rather than Adam's corrupted seed which was stained from the "original sin" (or rather, when sin entered the world) which caused the sinful nature to pass to his descendents.

That's why Jesus is not included in "for all have sinned": He did not inherit Adam's sinful nature--he is not a descendent of Adam.

Anyone who needs a savior obviously needs a savior from the second death. Anyone who is in danger of death is so because they sinned (Romans 5:12). Therefore, Mary must have sinned.

I don't understand the point of your questions at all.

[papist1]

Jesus was fully human, but he was conceived of the Holy Spirit, rather than Adam's corrupted seed which was stained from the "original sin" (or rather, when sin entered the world) which caused the sinful nature to pass to his descendents.

That's why Jesus is not included in "for all have sinned": He did not inherit Adam's sinful nature--he is not a descendent of Adam.

Anyone who needs a savior obviously needs a savior from the second death. Anyone who is in danger of death is so because they sinned (Romans 5:12). Therefore, Mary must have sinned.

I don't understand the point of your questions at all.

Thank you for making the Catholic point.

We agree! If God Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit(God) and she had sin, then Jesus also would have sin within him. You see God knew this, obviously, and therefore purposefully preprepared Mary for the conception of Jesus.

How could God dwell in a sinful place, and even be part of that sin? He can't, and would not.

This is the same reason that when one sins mortally(deadly) sin, that the grace of God is displaced from their soul and they are no longer in a state of grace with God.

You see, to say that Mary had sin within her, is to somehow take away from who christ really is.

Jesus is a Divine Person, with a human nature, 100% God 100% human, yet one Person.

Mary conceived of One Person and that person had no sin whatsoever, neither in His human nature nor His Divine nature.

peace, papist

[Cally]

Well, I have to restate the facts briefly about the point of Mary's need for a savior, which was because Mary said:

"Luke 1:47 My spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior,"

If she needed a savior, that means a savior from death; if she needed a savior from death, that must mean she sinned herself (as a descendant of Adam) and therefore couldn't have been "immaculate" according to Romans 5:12--Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; and so death passed to all men, because all sinned.

Personally I conclude that Mary had a fertilized egg (embryo) put inside her--that's the easy answer.

[Amo]

Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

How could someone whose Father was God, and mother was separated from the rest of humanity by having her fallen nature taken away, be tempted like we are in all points?  If Christ's mother and Father were nothing like the rest of us, then neither was Jesus.  This doctrine definitely leaves room for humanity to excuse sin.  If Christ was in reality, nothing like us, then of course we cannot be expected to pick up our cross and follow Him.  But no, He took the fallen nature of humanity upon Himself, and conquered it by living in that nature without sin.  This is our salvation. 

There is no excuse for sin, only pardon through the blood of Jesus.  Those who will not pick up the cross and follow Him, in the battle against the sinful flesh, will have no part in Him.  He came to conquer sin in the flesh.  To suggest that He did not have to fight the same battle that we do with self, because He was nothing like us, is to destroy the whole point of Him becoming one of us.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[Jimmy]

Jesus was fully human, but he was conceived of the Holy Spirit, rather than Adam's corrupted seed which was stained from the "original sin" (or rather, when sin entered the world) which caused the sinful nature to pass to his descendents.

That's why Jesus is not included in "for all have sinned": He did not inherit Adam's sinful nature--he is not a descendent of Adam.

Anyone who needs a savior obviously needs a savior from the second death. Anyone who is in danger of death is so because they sinned (Romans 5:12). Therefore, Mary must have sinned.

I don't understand the point of your questions at all.

Thank you for making the Catholic point.

We agree! If God Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit(God) and she had sin, then Jesus also would have sin within him. You see God knew this, obviously, and therefore purposefully preprepared Mary for the conception of Jesus.

How could God dwell in a sinful place, and even be part of that sin? He can't, and would not.

This is the same reason that when one sins mortally(deadly) sin, that the grace of God is displaced from their soul and they are no longer in a state of grace with God.

You see, to say that Mary had sin within her, is to somehow take away from who christ really is.

Jesus is a Divine Person, with a human nature, 100% God 100% human, yet one Person.

Mary conceived of One Person and that person had no sin whatsoever, neither in His human nature nor His Divine nature.

peace, papist

One more time the hideous doctrine of original sin gets in the way of any rational conclusions about Jesus the man.

Get rid of the ridiculous assertions of original sin and none of the silliness of immaculate conceptions and Jesus the man but not a man simply go away.

None, including Jesus, are born with sin imputed or imparted - period.  All are sinless until they sin.

[broach972]

One more time the hideous doctrine of original sin gets in the way of any rational conclusions about Jesus the man.

Get rid of the ridiculous assertions of original sin and none of the silliness of immaculate conceptions and Jesus the man but not a man simply go away.

None, including Jesus, are born with sin imputed or imparted - period.  All are sinless until they sin.

Unfortunately, Scripture, logic, and the writings of the early Church Fathers simply do not support your position.  We are tainted at the moment of conception.

[Jimmy]

One more time the hideous doctrine of original sin gets in the way of any rational conclusions about Jesus the man.

Get rid of the ridiculous assertions of original sin and none of the silliness of immaculate conceptions and Jesus the man but not a man simply go away.

None, including Jesus, are born with sin imputed or imparted - period.  All are sinless until they sin.

Unfortunately, Scripture, logic, and the writings of the early Church Fathers simply do not support your position.  We are tainted at the moment of conception.

No we are not.  Whatever you think might have been, Paul tells us that Jesus took care of that.  " So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. "(Rom 5:18)

No matter how you want to interpret the phrase "there resulted condemnation to all men"  it is clear that it was undone by the one act of righteousness.

That confirmation of original grace was restated and emphasized in the very next verse (v.19).

So Scripture and logic both support my position.  As for the early church fathers, it just goes to show why you can't always trust them;  which of course you know since it is obvious that you don't agree with everything that every early church father wrote.  After all, they didn't all even agree with each other.  But that is a different story.

[Cally]

One more time the hideous doctrine of original sin gets in the way of any rational conclusions about Jesus the man.

Get rid of the ridiculous assertions of original sin and none of the silliness of immaculate conceptions and Jesus the man but not a man simply go away.

None, including Jesus, are born with sin imputed or imparted - period.  All are sinless until they sin.

Unfortunately, Scripture, logic, and the writings of the early Church Fathers simply do not support your position.  We are tainted at the moment of conception.

We inherited the sinful nature from the corruptible seed--Jesus did not.

Besides, "Immaculate conception" still makes the weird statement that Mary was still guilty of the original sin and therefore needed a savior (Luke 1:47), but was somehow able to be "perfect" as she conceived Jesus. Not surprisingly the doctrine isn't even consistent with itself.

Romans 5:12--Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; and so death passed to all men, because all sinned.

Death passed to all men because all sinned. The sin that entered the world is what causes people to sin, but that's not what causes death to pass to all men--it's the actual sins themselves. Hence ours (and Mary's) need for a savior (Luke 1:47).

[Jimmy]

One more time the hideous doctrine of original sin gets in the way of any rational conclusions about Jesus the man.

Get rid of the ridiculous assertions of original sin and none of the silliness of immaculate conceptions and Jesus the man but not a man simply go away.

None, including Jesus, are born with sin imputed or imparted - period.  All are sinless until they sin.

Unfortunately, Scripture, logic, and the writings of the early Church Fathers simply do not support your position.  We are tainted at the moment of conception.

We inherited the sinful nature from the corruptible seed--Jesus did not.

Where do you read that bit of information?  I haven't seen anything like that at all in the Bible.

Besides, "Immaculate conception" still makes the weird statement that Mary was still guilty of the original sin and therefore needed a savior (Luke 1:47), but was somehow able to be "perfect" as she conceived Jesus. Not surprisingly the doctrine isn't even consistent with itself.

It goes right along with the doctrine of original sin.

Romans 5:12--Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; and so death passed to all men, because all sinned.

Death passed to all men because all sinned. The sin that entered the world is what causes people to sin, but that's not what causes death to pass to all men--it's the actual sins themselves. Hence ours (and Mary's) need for a savior (Luke 1:47).

If that is the case then what caused Adam to sin?  The sin of one man does not cause another man to sin.  And God does not condemn one man for another man's sin.  From Ezekiel 18,

1  Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
2  "What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying, 'The fathers eat the sour grapes, But the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3  "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.
4  "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
      .
      .
      .
      .
20  "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21  "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22  "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23  "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

From verse 20, God says that neither Cain nor Able nor any other children of Adam bore the punishment for Adam's sin.  The sin of Adam wasn't passed on to his sons and the sin of Adam's sons wasn't passed on to their sons and on and on right up to today.  There is no original sin.

You sin because you choose to, not because of anything that Adam did.

There really isn't anything in the Bible about "sinful nature".

[TheCatholic]

Here is an mp3 audio of Tim Staples appearing on "The Journey Home".
At first they talk about his conversion, but then it goes into the topic of the Immaculate Conception:
http://www.bringyou.to/JHTimStaples.mp3