Indulgences - are they forgiven?

[winsome]

There is no such thing... it's all made up in your minds.

That's rich coming from you.

To me, the claims of Apostolic authority, is just a continuation of the spiritual disease that had permeated the Jewish religious leadership in the OT.. one of the wrongs that Jesus sought to right during his ministry. 

Opinions, opinions.

To me, there are such parallels between the OT corrupt priesthood and the RCC it cannot be coincidence..

More opinions.

Any facts?

[Tantor]

There is no such thing... it's all made up in your minds.

That's rich coming from you.

To me, the claims of Apostolic authority, is just a continuation of the spiritual disease that had permeated the Jewish religious leadership in the OT.. one of the wrongs that Jesus sought to right during his ministry. 

Opinions, opinions.

To me, there are such parallels between the OT corrupt priesthood and the RCC it cannot be coincidence..

More opinions.

Any facts?

Where would you like me to start?

[mclees8]

Show me a writing from Peter himself declaring who his successor was.. or even some of Peter's contemporaries who might have been an eye witness to such a transfer of power.

O.K., well, as Peter would have been slightly...uh, dead when his successor would have been named, he would not have known.

As to Holy Scripture...There is not one single, solitary, example in New Testament scripture, of anyone, ever, being accepted as a Bishop, Presbyter or Deacon without having been ordained so through the laying on of hands by legitimate, (i.e., those who can trace their ordination back to the Apostles.), Authority.  Not one, not ever.

Tantor,  I'm thinking that you have a very erroneous idea as to what Apostolic Succession is.  It has nothing to do with "naming one's own successor."  It has nothing to do with one single line of succession.  I don't think that you get that it is not the person, handing the office off to the next guy in line, that makes for the "Succession". I really don't know if Linus was second or third or if Clement was third or forth as the Bishop of Rome.  It doesn't matter in the end.  It has little to do with the validity of Succession.  It isn't based on one single line, but a multitude of lines emanating out from the original Apostles.  Validity is conveyed by whether that person, no matter where they were in line, was validly ordained or consecrated into that position, i.e., by those or someone who has the proper authority to do so. That is the only definition of Apostolic Succession. 

There is no such thing... it's all made up in your minds.

To me, the claims of Apostolic authority, is just a continuation of the spiritual disease that had permeated the Jewish religious leadership in the OT.. one of the wrongs that Jesus sought to right during his ministry. 

To me, there are such parallels between the OT corrupt priesthood and the RCC it cannot be coincidence..

Right tantor. when i look at the papacy and all their pride of position parade of pomp show of authority. i only see what Jesus saw about the pharisees. Authority became a hangup that blinded them. they misuse scripture to support their ideals and misuse letters from the early bishops that had no ambition of supreme authority much less being a political power 

[winsome]

Right tantor. when i look at the papacy and all their pride of position parade of pomp show of authority. i only see what Jesus saw about the pharisees. Authority became a hangup that blinded them. they misuse scripture to support their ideals and misuse letters from the early bishops that had no ambition of supreme authority much less being a political power 

If you read the scriptures it is clear that Jesus passed his authority on to the apostles. You can also see how they in turn passed on that authority to others that they appointed. Desertknight has clearly shown this.

Why is it that Protestants demand scripture from Catholics for points they make,  but they just make vague claims without any scriptural support themselves?

[Stucky]

   Isn't this the same argument Martin Luther had with his Church?  One side is not going to convince the other side.  It's all in one's interpretation of Scripture.

[winsome]

  Isn't this the same argument Martin Luther had with his Church?  One side is not going to convince the other side.  It's all in one's interpretation of Scripture.

And then it comes down to who has the authority to interpret scripture and we are back to http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/the-root-of-our-differences-is-the-authority-we-claim/   

[Stucky]

  Isn't this the same argument Martin Luther had with his Church?  One side is not going to convince the other side.  It's all in one's interpretation of Scripture.

And then it comes down to who has the authority to interpret scripture and we are back to http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/the-root-of-our-differences-is-the-authority-we-claim/   

Winsome, thanks for posting that, it made for fascinationg reading I wonder if we are all going to keep arguing in Heaven (J/K)   

[Tantor]

  Isn't this the same argument Martin Luther had with his Church?  One side is not going to convince the other side.  It's all in one's interpretation of Scripture.

And then it comes down to who has the authority to interpret scripture and we are back to http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/the-root-of-our-differences-is-the-authority-we-claim/   

Winsome, thanks for posting that, it made for fascinationg reading I wonder if we are all going to keep arguing in Heaven (J/K)   

It depends on who makes it in or not.

[winsome]

  Isn't this the same argument Martin Luther had with his Church?  One side is not going to convince the other side.  It's all in one's interpretation of Scripture.

And then it comes down to who has the authority to interpret scripture and we are back to http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/the-root-of-our-differences-is-the-authority-we-claim/   

Winsome, thanks for posting that, it made for fascinationg reading I wonder if we are all going to keep arguing in Heaven (J/K)   

Nah - then they'll know we were right all along.