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Offline wincam

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INFALLIBILITY !?
« on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 05:23:00 »
Magisterium - Pope - Holy Ghost - wincam = which one of these four is infallible and which three are not

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INFALLIBILITY !?
« on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 05:23:00 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #1 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 05:34:24 »
Magisterium - Pope - Holy Ghost - wincam = which one of these four is infallible and which three are not

Your wife, your sons, your daughters, your baby. Which one of these four have you stopped beating and which three have you not?

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #1 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 05:34:24 »

Offline wincam

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #2 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 05:50:53 »
Magisterium - Pope - Holy Ghost - wincam = which one of these four is infallible and which three are not

Your wife, your sons, your daughters, your baby. Which one of these four have you stopped beating and which three have you not?



this will take some beating since that that is not is not is not that so - wincam

Offline chosenone

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #3 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 07:36:34 »
Holy Spirit of course. 

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #3 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 07:36:34 »

Offline winsome

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #4 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 08:42:43 »
We've done infallibility (of the Pope) twice recently.

Do we really need to go through it again?

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #4 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 08:42:43 »



Offline AVZ

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #5 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 08:47:23 »
We've done infallibility (of the Pope) twice recently.

Do we really need to go through it again?

Agree.
Must be a bit tiresome to be Catholic  ::smile::

Offline wincam

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #6 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 10:04:32 »
We've done infallibility (of the Pope) twice recently.

Do we really need to go through it again?

Agree.
Must be a bit tiresome to be Catholic  ::smile::


not really at least not always and everywhere or evermore - wincam

Offline Catholica

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #7 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 10:29:01 »
Magisterium - Pope - Holy Ghost - wincam = which one of these four is infallible and which three are not

Your wife, your sons, your daughters, your baby. Which one of these four have you stopped beating and which three have you not?



this will take some beating since that that is not is not is not that so - wincam

My post was an illustration.  Starting with a false premise leads to dishonest questions.

The Holy Spirit is the safeguard of truth and He works through men to do His safeguarding in a structured way.  That is what infallibility is.

Offline wincam

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #8 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 11:00:43 »
We've done infallibility (of the Pope) twice recently.

Do we really need to go through it again?


lets do it right and get it right before we put it aside as if of no import - wincam

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #9 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 11:10:59 »
Magisterium - Pope - Holy Ghost - wincam = which one of these four is infallible and which three are not
Very easy answer. The Holy Ghost.

And yes, there are many threads on this topic. Why would you need to start another one to make a point that can possibly benefit those other threads already in progress?

Offline Catholica

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #10 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 11:14:29 »
We've done infallibility (of the Pope) twice recently.

Do we really need to go through it again?


lets do it right and get it right before we put it aside as if of no import - wincam

The other threads do it much better than this one, which starts with a dishonest question.

Offline wincam

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #11 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 12:04:03 »
 according to you presumably but the wrangling still goes on imho - wincam

Offline Catholica

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #12 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 12:53:25 »
according to you presumably but the wrangling still goes on imho - wincam

wincam, you have said you are Catholic, are you suggesting that the Magisterium and the Pope are not infallible?  Why?

Offline skeeter

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #13 on: Fri May 01, 2015 - 15:47:24 »
We've done infallibility (of the Pope) twice recently.

Do we really need to go through it again?
no

Offline wincam

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #14 on: Sun May 03, 2015 - 10:14:58 »
We've done infallibility (of the Pope) twice recently.

Do we really need to go through it again?
no


I am not suggesting anything that is not so - that that it is neither correctly understood by, it seems, most Catholics and Protestants is one of the causes of the bitter and sad division - btw wincam knows this and he is not even infallible   

Offline kensington

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #15 on: Sun May 03, 2015 - 18:55:19 »
3rd person?  That's Creepy.

Offline Catholica

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #16 on: Mon May 04, 2015 - 09:37:52 »
I am not suggesting anything that is not so - that that it is neither correctly understood by, it seems, most Catholics and Protestants is one of the causes of the bitter and sad division - btw wincam knows this and he is not even infallible   

Yes, you are.  You are suggesting that the Pope and the Magisterium are not infallible.  Maybe you worded your question wrong.  You listed four and you said that only one is infallible.  Is that what you believe?

Offline wincam

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #17 on: Mon May 04, 2015 - 11:31:42 »
I am not suggesting anything that is not so - that that it is neither correctly understood by, it seems, most Catholics and Protestants is one of the causes of the bitter and sad division - btw wincam knows this and he is not even infallible   

Yes, you are.  You are suggesting that the Pope and the Magisterium are not infallible.  Maybe you worded your question wrong.  You listed four and you said that only one is infallible.  Is that what you believe?


even the first Pope had to discovered that flesh and blood cannot reveal certainity but only God can - no Pope of himself is infallible all the time but only ex cathedra via revelation by the Holy Ghost and no magisterium either except that God is finally where two or three or more are gathered together in His name - other than this some Popes and Bishops have made some awful blunders and mistakes and have even contradicted one another imho - wincam

Offline winsome

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #18 on: Mon May 04, 2015 - 11:41:34 »
Three ways the Catholic Church can be infallible in matters of doctrine.

“God, who is absolutely infallible, thus deigned to bestow upon His new people, which is the Church, a certain shared infallibility, which is restricted to matters of faith and morals, which is present when

“the whole People of God unhesitatingly holds a point of doctrine pertaining to these matters, and finally which always depends upon the wise providence and anointing of the grace of the Holy Spirit, who leads the Church into all truth until the glorious coming of her Lord…..”

“….the bishops scattered throughout the world but teaching in communion with the Successor of Peter present a doctrine to be held irrevocably. It occurs even more clearly both when the bishops by a collegial act (as in Ecumenical Councils), together with their visible Head, define a doctrine to be held …..."

“when the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, exercising the office of Pastor and Teacher of all Christians, through his supreme apostolic authority he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the universal Church.”


Quotes from Mysterium Ecclesiae.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19730705_mysterium-ecclesiae_en.html

Offline Catholica

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #19 on: Mon May 04, 2015 - 11:52:46 »
I am not suggesting anything that is not so - that that it is neither correctly understood by, it seems, most Catholics and Protestants is one of the causes of the bitter and sad division - btw wincam knows this and he is not even infallible   

Yes, you are.  You are suggesting that the Pope and the Magisterium are not infallible.  Maybe you worded your question wrong.  You listed four and you said that only one is infallible.  Is that what you believe?


even the first Pope had to discovered that flesh and blood cannot reveal certainity but only God can - no Pope of himself is infallible all the time but only ex cathedra via revelation by the Holy Ghost and no magisterium either except that God is finally where two or three or more are gathered together in His name - other than this some Popes and Bishops have made some awful blunders and mistakes and have even contradicted one another imho - wincam

According to the usage of the word infallibility, which every Catholic should use, the Pope is infallible as are the Magisterium.  This meaning of infallibility doesn't mean that the Church claims they are infallible all the time, but only when solemnly pronouncing doctrine.   In that sense, which you must not deny in order to remain in communion with the Catholic Church, the Pope and the Magisterium are infallible.

You should probably study this more wincam.  Claiming that you are Catholic is incompatible with going out in public and claiming that the Pope and the Magisterium are not infallible.

Also the infallible statements are not "revelation of the Holy Ghost".  Anything that is declared infallibly has been believed for time immemorial, and is not a special revelation.

And because the concept of infallibility doesn't suggest that those infallible people cannot make blunders or even everyday errors in their teaching, the fact that there have been blunders made shouldn't be part of a discussion on infallibility.  The two matters are completely separate.

Offline wincam

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #20 on: Mon May 04, 2015 - 12:03:47 »
Three ways the Catholic Church can be infallible in matters of doctrine.

“God, who is absolutely infallible, thus deigned to bestow upon His new people, which is the Church, a certain shared infallibility, which is restricted to matters of faith and morals, which is present when

“the whole People of God unhesitatingly holds a point of doctrine pertaining to these matters, and finally which always depends upon the wise providence and anointing of the grace of the Holy Spirit, who leads the Church into all truth until the glorious coming of her Lord…..”

“….the bishops scattered throughout the world but teaching in communion with the Successor of Peter present a doctrine to be held irrevocably. It occurs even more clearly both when the bishops by a collegial act (as in Ecumenical Councils), together with their visible Head, define a doctrine to be held …..."

“when the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, exercising the office of Pastor and Teacher of all Christians, through his supreme apostolic authority he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the universal Church.”


Quotes from Mysterium Ecclesiae.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19730705_mysterium-ecclesiae_en.html



that is the long winded superfluous answer but the short answer is only God/Holy Ghost can be or is infallible - Protestants seem to understand this better than some Catholics - this is according to Jesus not wincam viz 'flesh and blood cannot reveal what only my Father in heaven can' - wincam   

Offline winsome

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #21 on: Mon May 04, 2015 - 12:12:06 »
Three ways the Catholic Church can be infallible in matters of doctrine.

“God, who is absolutely infallible, thus deigned to bestow upon His new people, which is the Church, a certain shared infallibility, which is restricted to matters of faith and morals, which is present when

“the whole People of God unhesitatingly holds a point of doctrine pertaining to these matters, and finally which always depends upon the wise providence and anointing of the grace of the Holy Spirit, who leads the Church into all truth until the glorious coming of her Lord…..”

“….the bishops scattered throughout the world but teaching in communion with the Successor of Peter present a doctrine to be held irrevocably. It occurs even more clearly both when the bishops by a collegial act (as in Ecumenical Councils), together with their visible Head, define a doctrine to be held …..."

“when the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, exercising the office of Pastor and Teacher of all Christians, through his supreme apostolic authority he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the universal Church.”


Quotes from Mysterium Ecclesiae.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19730705_mysterium-ecclesiae_en.html



that is the long winded superfluous answer but the short answer is only God/Holy Ghost can be or is infallible - Protestants seem to understand this better than some Catholics - this is according to Jesus not wincam viz 'flesh and blood cannot reveal what only my Father in heaven can' - wincam   


Only God is inffalible in himself. But if God bestows on the Church a share in his infallibility then the Church can exercise that charism of infallibility.

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals.

Catechism of The Catholic Church

Offline wincam

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #22 on: Mon May 04, 2015 - 12:30:49 »
Three ways the Catholic Church can be infallible in matters of doctrine.

“God, who is absolutely infallible, thus deigned to bestow upon His new people, which is the Church, a certain shared infallibility, which is restricted to matters of faith and morals, which is present when

“the whole People of God unhesitatingly holds a point of doctrine pertaining to these matters, and finally which always depends upon the wise providence and anointing of the grace of the Holy Spirit, who leads the Church into all truth until the glorious coming of her Lord…..”

“….the bishops scattered throughout the world but teaching in communion with the Successor of Peter present a doctrine to be held irrevocably. It occurs even more clearly both when the bishops by a collegial act (as in Ecumenical Councils), together with their visible Head, define a doctrine to be held …..."

“when the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, exercising the office of Pastor and Teacher of all Christians, through his supreme apostolic authority he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the universal Church.”


Quotes from Mysterium Ecclesiae.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19730705_mysterium-ecclesiae_en.html



that is the long winded superfluous answer but the short answer is only God/Holy Ghost can be or is infallible - Protestants seem to understand this better than some Catholics - this is according to Jesus not wincam viz 'flesh and blood cannot reveal what only my Father in heaven can' - wincam   


Only God is inffalible in himself. But if God bestows on the Church a share in his infallibility then the Church can exercise that charism of infallibility.

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals.

Catechism of The Catholic Church



no doubt but without God/Holy Ghost no more infallible than you or I and oft times even more fallible it seems - for example see 'The gift of Scripture' by our English Bishops - wincam

Offline chosenone

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #23 on: Mon May 04, 2015 - 12:49:09 »
The Bible says that no one is perfect except Jesus. We ALL fall short. The pope is just as fallible and weak as we all are, and to say differently is going completely against what God says, therefore it can be ignored.
 

Offline Catholica

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #24 on: Mon May 04, 2015 - 13:08:36 »
The Bible says that no one is perfect except Jesus. We ALL fall short.

It doesn't say that "no one is perfect except Jesus".  It does say "we all fall short of the glory of God" however.  It says that people are "made perfect".  However none of that has anything to do with infallibility, at all, which has nothing to do with being perfect or the assertion that someone is.  If that last statement doesn't make sense to you, then you don't understand what the Catholic Church means when it makes claims about infallibility.

The pope is just as fallible and weak as we all are, and to say differently is going completely against what God says, therefore it can be ignored.

The Pope is weak as we all are, although some of us are weaker than others, and I would say that the Pope is less weak than most.  Not simply because he is Pope, but rather for the type of virtue and love I have seen him emote.  But that he is weak has nothing to do with infallibility and what Catholics mean when they say the Pope is infallible.

That the Pope is infallible is a gift of the Holy Spirit and derives it's efficacy from the power of the Holy Spirit alone and not from any natural human power.

Offline wincam

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #25 on: Mon May 04, 2015 - 13:10:56 »
The Bible says that no one is perfect except Jesus. We ALL fall short. The pope is just as fallible and weak as we all are, and to say differently is going completely against what God says, therefore it can be ignored.


not at all - sure Jesus is perfect and also infallible as is also the Holy Ghost via the Pope and the Magisterium  - wincam

Offline MeMyself

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Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Reply #26 on: Mon May 04, 2015 - 14:00:10 »
The Bible says that no one is perfect except Jesus. We ALL fall short. The pope is just as fallible and weak as we all are,

Yep...and that is why teachers are given such strenuous caution.