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Author Topic: Infallibility ?  (Read 3399 times)

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Offline wincam

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #35 on: Fri Oct 02, 2015 - 17:16:51 »
Father, Son, Holy Spirit = Infallible.  Everyone else ever born = Fallible.

Read the word.

Catholica - great damage has been done in the past and even now by some Catholics accepting and expecting Protestants and others to accept that Catholics accept the Pope to be infallible of himself and everywhere and every when - but of course this is just not so - this is the correct Catholic answer - wincam


we know all that so how about answering the original question - wincam

The original question has already been answered.  Aren't you satisfied with the Catholic answer?  Do you have any questions?

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #35 on: Fri Oct 02, 2015 - 17:16:51 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Oct 03, 2015 - 00:10:55 »
Father, Son, Holy Spirit = Infallible.  Everyone else ever born = Fallible.

Read the word.

Catholica - great damage has been done in the past and even now by some Catholics accepting and expecting Protestants and others to accept that Catholics accept the Pope to be infallible of himself and everywhere and every when - but of course this is just not so - this is the correct Catholic answer - wincam


we know all that so how about answering the original question - wincam

The original question has already been answered.  Aren't you satisfied with the Catholic answer?  Do you have any questions?

Wincam,

Besides the fact that you posted your response in the middle of an earlier posted message, I wish to congratulate you on your first reasonably intelligible structured sentence.
What bemuses me, and what also tells me you are a true Catholic, is the fact that the comprehensiveness of your posts and the comprehensiveness of general Catholic dogmas & doctrines have the following in common: after you are done reading, you still have no clue what it is about. 

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Oct 03, 2015 - 00:10:55 »

Offline wincam

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #37 on: Sat Oct 03, 2015 - 02:19:04 »
Father, Son, Holy Spirit = Infallible.  Everyone else ever born = Fallible.

Read the word.

Catholica - great damage has been done in the past and even now by some Catholics accepting and expecting Protestants and others to accept that Catholics accept the Pope to be infallible of himself and everywhere and every when - but of course this is just not so - this is the correct Catholic answer - wincam


we know all that so how about answering the original question - wincam

The original question has already been answered.  Aren't you satisfied with the Catholic answer?  Do you have any questions?

Wincam,

Besides the fact that you posted your response in the middle of an earlier posted message, I wish to congratulate you on your first reasonably intelligible structured sentence.
What bemuses me, and what also tells me you are a true Catholic, is the fact that the comprehensiveness of your posts and the comprehensiveness of general Catholic dogmas & doctrines have the following in common: after you are done reading, you still have no clue what it is about.


Thank you very much - so I still wait enlightenment by you and others - wincam

Offline wincam

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Oct 03, 2015 - 02:53:22 »
indeed - like the Holy Spirit via Jesus Christ via the Pope - wincam


 have a lot of faith in your pope, don't you? If I were to tell you that the very concept of your pope is based off an erred structure found in a system in opposition against the Lord, you would argue tooth and nail that I'm wrong and in error myself, am I right?

 of course if I was foolish enough to accept that both you and your informant were infallible - wincam


You don't make sense here, you mean you would argue against me if you were foolish enough to accept I'm infallible? Assuming you meant to word that differently, it's interesting you point it back to me like that.

The concept of a pope is found in a hierarchical system: the head of a clergy which is the head of its "fathers" which is the head of the laity. It was never a concept the Lord had in mind when establishing His Kingdom, He showed great disapproval when Israel demanded a king. That is, essentially, what you lot have done with the pope, and that is the error of the Catholic Church. It is not a system the Lord would bless, nor is it a system the Holy Spirit would possess. Considering certain historical evidence of popes demonstrating violent tendencies towards those who rejected the RCC, I can't but question the very nature of papal infallibility. The faith you demonstrate towards your pope is more akin to a cult, a leadership that has spiritual domination over the laity. If you believe that is what the Lord willed, then you simply don't know Him.


of course you have no true idea about Catholicism and its in built safe guards and guardians of the faith to even correct Popes who are not mostly infallible and have been known to say many foolish things - for just one such safe guard see www.proecclesia.com - wincam

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Oct 03, 2015 - 02:53:22 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Oct 03, 2015 - 03:46:26 »
indeed - like the Holy Spirit via Jesus Christ via the Pope - wincam


 have a lot of faith in your pope, don't you? If I were to tell you that the very concept of your pope is based off an erred structure found in a system in opposition against the Lord, you would argue tooth and nail that I'm wrong and in error myself, am I right?

 of course if I was foolish enough to accept that both you and your informant were infallible - wincam


You don't make sense here, you mean you would argue against me if you were foolish enough to accept I'm infallible? Assuming you meant to word that differently, it's interesting you point it back to me like that.

The concept of a pope is found in a hierarchical system: the head of a clergy which is the head of its "fathers" which is the head of the laity. It was never a concept the Lord had in mind when establishing His Kingdom, He showed great disapproval when Israel demanded a king. That is, essentially, what you lot have done with the pope, and that is the error of the Catholic Church. It is not a system the Lord would bless, nor is it a system the Holy Spirit would possess. Considering certain historical evidence of popes demonstrating violent tendencies towards those who rejected the RCC, I can't but question the very nature of papal infallibility. The faith you demonstrate towards your pope is more akin to a cult, a leadership that has spiritual domination over the laity. If you believe that is what the Lord willed, then you simply don't know Him.


of course you have no true idea about Catholicism and its in built safe guards and guardians of the faith to even correct Popes who are not mostly infallible and have been known to say many foolish things - for just one such safe guard see www.proecclesia.com - wincam


How do you know when a Pope is fallible or infallible?
For all you know lots of foolish things have been said under the declaration of infallibility. How to tell if you are not infallible yourself and if you are not allowed to have a personal interpretation?

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Oct 03, 2015 - 03:46:26 »



Offline wincam

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #40 on: Sat Oct 03, 2015 - 08:52:27 »
the Pope is really only really infallible when he pronounces ex cathedra - wincam

LexKnight

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #41 on: Fri Oct 02, 2015 - 01:15:21 »
the Pope is really only really infallible when he pronounces ex cathedra - wincam

So he's infallible when he says he's infallible? How do you know he's infallible even when he says it?

Offline AVZ

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #42 on: Fri Oct 02, 2015 - 01:16:49 »
the Pope is really only really infallible when he pronounces ex cathedra - wincam

Question remains. How would you know the Pope speaks or spoke ex cathedra other than the fact he claimed he did.
And again the only way to confirm someone is infallible is by another infallible person.

Offline wincam

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #43 on: Sun Oct 04, 2015 - 13:23:19 »
the Pope is really only really infallible when he pronounces ex cathedra - wincam

Question remains. How would you know the Pope speaks or spoke ex cathedra other than the fact he claimed he did.
And again the only way to confirm someone is infallible is by another infallible person.

what we do know for sure is when he does not speak ex cathedra which is mostly - wincam

Offline mclees8

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #44 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 09:19:42 »
the Pope is really only really infallible when he pronounces ex cathedra - wincam

Question remains. How would you know the Pope speaks or spoke ex cathedra other than the fact he claimed he did.
And again the only way to confirm someone is infallible is by another infallible person.

what we do know for sure is when he does not speak ex cathedra which is mostly - wincam

The pope is a pide piper

Offline wincam

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #45 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 09:35:23 »
the Pope is really only really infallible when he pronounces ex cathedra - wincam

Question remains. How would you know the Pope speaks or spoke ex cathedra other than the fact he claimed he did.
And again the only way to confirm someone is infallible is by another infallible person.

what we do know for sure is when he does not speak ex cathedra which is mostly - wincam

The pope is a pide piper


the first Pope = simple Simon spied and followed a God like pie man piper who promised to make him a fisher of men - wincam   

Offline mclees8

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #46 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 10:30:43 »
the Pope is really only really infallible when he pronounces ex cathedra - wincam

Question remains. How would you know the Pope speaks or spoke ex cathedra other than the fact he claimed he did.
And again the only way to confirm someone is infallible is by another infallible person.

what we do know for sure is when he does not speak ex cathedra which is mostly - wincam

The pope is a pide piper

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHSYU89ov7vX61kivZCJXADXBDXqYJF-jYOXQi1TCUhvTF345rVg

Offline wincam

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #47 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 12:49:00 »
the Pope is really only really infallible when he pronounces ex cathedra - wincam

Question remains. How would you know the Pope speaks or spoke ex cathedra other than the fact he claimed he did.
And again the only way to confirm someone is infallible is by another infallible person.

what we do know for sure is when he does not speak ex cathedra which is mostly - wincam

The pope is a pide piper


doesn't look a bit like the Pope - more like Martin Luther or Henry VIII - wincam
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHSYU89ov7vX61kivZCJXADXBDXqYJF-jYOXQi1TCUhvTF345rVg

Offline mclees8

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #48 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 16:11:48 »
the Pope is really only really infallible when he pronounces ex cathedra - wincam

Question remains. How would you know the Pope speaks or spoke ex cathedra other than the fact he claimed he did.
And again the only way to confirm someone is infallible is by another infallible person.

what we do know for sure is when he does not speak ex cathedra which is mostly - wincam

The pope is a pide piper


doesn't look a bit like the Pope - more like Martin Luther or Henry VIII - wincam
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHSYU89ov7vX61kivZCJXADXBDXqYJF-jYOXQi1TCUhvTF345rVg

I said he was a pied piper. Just different clothes
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 16:15:07 by mclees8 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #49 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 16:13:47 »
Mike how old are you?  Do you consider yourself a mature Christian?

Offline mclees8

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #50 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 16:18:53 »
Mike how old are you?  Do you consider yourself a mature Christian?

Trying to demean me with insults  Mighty Catholic of you.  Im only showing you the truth and you know it?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #51 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 16:31:48 »
Mike how old are you?  Do you consider yourself a mature Christian?

Trying to demean me with insults  Mighty Catholic of you.  Im only showing you the truth and you know it?

Your pride prevents you from seeing how immature you are acting.

Offline kensington

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #52 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 16:44:11 »
Judge not.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #53 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 16:55:07 »
Mike how old are you?  Do you consider yourself a mature Christian?

Trying to demean me with insults  Mighty Catholic of you.  Im only showing you the truth and you know it?

Your pride prevents you from seeing how immature you are acting.

OK Cath

Offline AVZ

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #54 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 18:53:03 »
the Pope is really only really infallible when he pronounces ex cathedra - wincam

Question remains. How would you know the Pope speaks or spoke ex cathedra other than the fact he claimed he did.
And again the only way to confirm someone is infallible is by another infallible person.

what we do know for sure is when he does not speak ex cathedra which is mostly - wincam

How would you know for sure? You are fallible.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #55 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 20:53:19 »
the Pope is really only really infallible when he pronounces ex cathedra - wincam

Question remains. How would you know the Pope speaks or spoke ex cathedra other than the fact he claimed he did.
And again the only way to confirm someone is infallible is by another infallible person.

what we do know for sure is when he does not speak ex cathedra which is mostly - wincam

The pope is a pide piper

He is our lead Bishop, the man whom God has placed in authority over us and when he speaks in the matters of faith and morals we are bound to believe him as we are told to in the Scriptures. He is no pied piper, but one who tells the truth as revealed to him by the Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 20:57:44 by Ladonia »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #56 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 22:43:20 »
when he speaks in the matters of faith and morals we are bound to believe him as we are told to in the Scriptures.

Actually the Bible does not say you have to believe your pastor or bishop. The Bible says you have to TEST and PROOF his words and CHECK if it aligns with scripture.

LexKnight

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #57 on: Mon Oct 05, 2015 - 22:58:49 »
Here is a little tip: It is a foolish man who believes he cannot be deceived, and it is the wise man who is opened to the possibility that he very well could be and is very possible for him to be. Likewise, a wise man would also realize, even if Paul were to stand before him, that it is possible even for Paul to be deceived and teach from that deception. The Pope is likewise, only a fool would take to their words without testing it in light of the nature of God, and only a fool would hold to a belief that a Pope is, in some way, infallible. It sounds harsh, but it is the type of person the proverbs describes a fool as.

If a man is not willing to be opened to the possibility that he can be deceived, then he is indeed a fool. If you are not willing to be opened to the possibility that your leader or overseer can be deceived and could very well be currently, then you are in a cult and not in an establishment of God. The Pope is elevated far beyond what any man should ever be elevated as, for even the angels are purposed to serve the Saints, how much more those greater in the Body be as lowly servants for the sake of the Saints?

Offline wincam

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #58 on: Tue Oct 06, 2015 - 03:54:39 »
yes yes but the greatest fools are those who think and seem to accept that even Jesus Christ , as God, could be wrong - He really knowing human nature as it is foresaw all this bickering over the issue of infallibility of the Pope even after being inspired by the Holy Ghost and provided an insurance against it namely the Magisterium to confirm or deny all or any utterances by the Pope - the Magisterium consists of "successors of the Apostles" as at Jn.14:26 - wincam

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #59 on: Tue Oct 06, 2015 - 04:08:06 »
the Pope is really only really infallible when he pronounces ex cathedra - wincam

Question remains. How would you know the Pope speaks or spoke ex cathedra other than the fact he claimed he did.
And again the only way to confirm someone is infallible is by another infallible person.

what we do know for sure is when he does not speak ex cathedra which is mostly - wincam

The pope is a pide piper


doesn't look a bit like the Pope - more like Martin Luther or Henry VIII - wincam
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHSYU89ov7vX61kivZCJXADXBDXqYJF-jYOXQi1TCUhvTF345rVg

I said he was a pied piper. Just different clothes

I said he was Luther or Henry VIII - wincam

Offline mclees8

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #60 on: Tue Oct 06, 2015 - 05:10:46 »
the Pope is really only really infallible when he pronounces ex cathedra - wincam

Question remains. How would you know the Pope speaks or spoke ex cathedra other than the fact he claimed he did.
And again the only way to confirm someone is infallible is by another infallible person.

what we do know for sure is when he does not speak ex cathedra which is mostly - wincam

The pope is a pide piper

He is our lead Bishop, the man whom God has placed in authority over us and when he speaks in the matters of faith and morals we are bound to believe him as we are told to in the Scriptures. He is no pied piper, but one who tells the truth as revealed to him by the Holy Spirit.

When did the Holy Spirit speak to him last. Last week when he went on a political parade.

That does not sound like what the scripture tells me listen to. Got any kids Ladonia
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 06, 2015 - 05:14:40 by mclees8 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #61 on: Tue Oct 06, 2015 - 05:42:06 »
yes yes but the greatest fools are those who think and seem to accept that even Jesus Christ , as God, could be wrong - He really knowing human nature as it is foresaw all this bickering over the issue of infallibility of the Pope even after being inspired by the Holy Ghost and provided an insurance against it namely the Magisterium to confirm or deny all or any utterances by the Pope - the Magisterium consists of "successors of the Apostles" as at Jn.14:26 - wincam

Huh? Where did you read that Jesus established a Magisterium?
And who declares the Magisterium to be infallible? The Pope?

From your own Catholic resources:

1. The Magisterium is incapable of fully understanding every truth found in the Deposit of Faith, for the Faith contains mysteries beyond complete human comprehension. Therefore, the teachings of the Magisterium are always necessarily significantly limited in their understanding of the teachings of the Deposit of Faith.

2. The Magisterium is incapable of fully expressing every truth found in the Deposit of Faith, for the Faith contains truths beyond the ability of mere human language to fully express. Therefore, the teachings of the Magisterium are always necessarily a limited expression of the ineffable truths found in the Deposit of Faith.

3. The Magisterium is incapable of teaching every truth, each one of which, individually, it is capable of teaching. For the Deposit of Faith contains so many truths that, “if each one was written, the world itself, I suppose, would be unable to hold the books that would be written.” (Jn 21:25).

Therefore, the sum total of all the teachings of the Magisterium, in understanding, expression, and number, is necessarily always significantly less than the sum total of all the teachings of the Deposit of Faith. And further development in the understanding, expression, and number of truths taught is always possible. For God is infinite Truth.


4. The Magisterium can only be exercised by the Bishops and the Pope. Individual Bishops, other than the Pope, can only exercise the Magisterium non-infallibly.

5. The Magisterium teaches infallibly only under certain conditions; whenever those conditions are lacking, the teaching is non-infallible. All non-infallible teachings allow for the limited possibility of error, but never to such an extent as to lead the faithful away from salvation.

6. The Magisterium is limited to teaching the truths found, explicitly or implicitly, in the Deposit of Faith (Tradition and Scripture). Nothing outside of the Deposit of Faith can be taught by the Magisterium, even under the non-infallible Ordinary Magisterium. All things to the contrary not withstanding.


7. The faithful are only required to believe with theological faith, that is, with the full assent of faith properly due to the teachings of Christ, the infallible teachings of Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium. Any requirement to adhere to the non-infallible teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium must always necessarily have significant limitations in the type and degree of assent, and must always necessarily permit the possibility of limited faithful dissent. For the non-infallible teachings admit a limited possibility of error, but belief in error is never required by Christ.

8. It is not always clear which teachings are infallible and which are non-infallible. It is not always clear whether an idea is a teaching of the Magisterium at all. Nor will it ever be completely clear, prior to the Return of Jesus Christ.

9. The temporal decisions of the Pope and the Bishops are not teachings, but judgments of the prudential order. Any exercise of the temporal authority of the Church is fallible.


10. The Pope and the Bishops, in whom the ability and authority of the Magisterium solely resides, are imperfect and are sinners. As a result, they teach less clearly and less fully than they otherwise could teach, and their ordinary non-infallible teaching contain more errors and more imperfections than it otherwise would contain.

11. The Magisterium often teaches later, rather than sooner. As time passes, the truths of the Faith become clearer to the Church on earth, and this understanding eventually, and usually very slowly, makes its way into the teachings of the Magisterium.

12. The Magisterium is unresponsive to the immediate needs of the faithful for guidance on particular questions of faith and morals. The Magisterium does not respond, in a timely manner, to each and every error of faith or morals that develops in the world, or among the faithful, or even among the Bishops. Thus, the faithful are often left, for a considerable period of time, without the guidance of the Magisterium on a particular question of importance to their salvation.
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 06, 2015 - 05:45:31 by AVZ »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #62 on: Tue Oct 06, 2015 - 05:51:17 »
yes yes but the greatest fools are those who think and seem to accept that even Jesus Christ , as God, could be wrong - He really knowing human nature as it is foresaw all this bickering over the issue of infallibility of the Pope even after being inspired by the Holy Ghost and provided an insurance against it namely the Magisterium to confirm or deny all or any utterances by the Pope - the Magisterium consists of "successors of the Apostles" as at Jn.14:26 - wincam

Huh? Where did you read that Jesus established a Magisterium?
And who declares the Magisterium to be infallible? The Pope?

From your own Catholic resources:

1. The Magisterium is incapable of fully understanding every truth found in the Deposit of Faith, for the Faith contains mysteries beyond complete human comprehension. Therefore, the teachings of the Magisterium are always necessarily significantly limited in their understanding of the teachings of the Deposit of Faith.

2. The Magisterium is incapable of fully expressing every truth found in the Deposit of Faith, for the Faith contains truths beyond the ability of mere human language to fully express. Therefore, the teachings of the Magisterium are always necessarily a limited expression of the ineffable truths found in the Deposit of Faith.

3. The Magisterium is incapable of teaching every truth, each one of which, individually, it is capable of teaching. For the Deposit of Faith contains so many truths that, “if each one was written, the world itself, I suppose, would be unable to hold the books that would be written.” (Jn 21:25).

Therefore, the sum total of all the teachings of the Magisterium, in understanding, expression, and number, is necessarily always significantly less than the sum total of all the teachings of the Deposit of Faith. And further development in the understanding, expression, and number of truths taught is always possible. For God is infinite Truth.


4. The Magisterium can only be exercised by the Bishops and the Pope. Individual Bishops, other than the Pope, can only exercise the Magisterium non-infallibly.

5. The Magisterium teaches infallibly only under certain conditions; whenever those conditions are lacking, the teaching is non-infallible. All non-infallible teachings allow for the limited possibility of error, but never to such an extent as to lead the faithful away from salvation.

6. The Magisterium is limited to teaching the truths found, explicitly or implicitly, in the Deposit of Faith (Tradition and Scripture). Nothing outside of the Deposit of Faith can be taught by the Magisterium, even under the non-infallible Ordinary Magisterium. All things to the contrary not withstanding.


7. The faithful are only required to believe with theological faith, that is, with the full assent of faith properly due to the teachings of Christ, the infallible teachings of Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium. Any requirement to adhere to the non-infallible teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium must always necessarily have significant limitations in the type and degree of assent, and must always necessarily permit the possibility of limited faithful dissent. For the non-infallible teachings admit a limited possibility of error, but belief in error is never required by Christ.

8. It is not always clear which teachings are infallible and which are non-infallible. It is not always clear whether an idea is a teaching of the Magisterium at all. Nor will it ever be completely clear, prior to the Return of Jesus Christ.

9. The temporal decisions of the Pope and the Bishops are not teachings, but judgments of the prudential order. Any exercise of the temporal authority of the Church is fallible.


10. The Pope and the Bishops, in whom the ability and authority of the Magisterium solely resides, are imperfect and are sinners. As a result, they teach less clearly and less fully than they otherwise could teach, and their ordinary non-infallible teaching contain more errors and more imperfections than it otherwise would contain.

11. The Magisterium often teaches later, rather than sooner. As time passes, the truths of the Faith become clearer to the Church on earth, and this understanding eventually, and usually very slowly, makes its way into the teachings of the Magisterium.

12. The Magisterium is unresponsive to the immediate needs of the faithful for guidance on particular questions of faith and morals. The Magisterium does not respond, in a timely manner, to each and every error of faith or morals that develops in the world, or among the faithful, or even among the Bishops. Thus, the faithful are often left, for a considerable period of time, without the guidance of the Magisterium on a particular question of importance to their salvation.

Just to recap everything.
You have a potential fallible Magisterium who must decide if a Pope is fallible or not.
Then you have a whole list of clauses and points that describe the non-infallibily and infallibility of the Magisterium.

And right in the middle, clause 8, it says: It is not always clear which teachings are infallible and which are non-infallible.

In other words, you just tried to make a point that the RCC is infallible, but we don't really know for sure.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #63 on: Tue Oct 06, 2015 - 06:30:20 »
yes yes but the greatest fools are those who think and seem to accept that even Jesus Christ , as God, could be wrong - He really knowing human nature as it is foresaw all this bickering over the issue of infallibility of the Pope even after being inspired by the Holy Ghost and provided an insurance against it namely the Magisterium to confirm or deny all or any utterances by the Pope - the Magisterium consists of "successors of the Apostles" as at Jn.14:26 - wincam

Huh? Where did you read that Jesus established a Magisterium?
And who declares the Magisterium to be infallible? The Pope?

From your own Catholic resources:

1. The Magisterium is incapable of fully understanding every truth found in the Deposit of Faith, for the Faith contains mysteries beyond complete human comprehension. Therefore, the teachings of the Magisterium are always necessarily significantly limited in their understanding of the teachings of the Deposit of Faith.

2. The Magisterium is incapable of fully expressing every truth found in the Deposit of Faith, for the Faith contains truths beyond the ability of mere human language to fully express. Therefore, the teachings of the Magisterium are always necessarily a limited expression of the ineffable truths found in the Deposit of Faith.

3. The Magisterium is incapable of teaching every truth, each one of which, individually, it is capable of teaching. For the Deposit of Faith contains so many truths that, “if each one was written, the world itself, I suppose, would be unable to hold the books that would be written.” (Jn 21:25).

Therefore, the sum total of all the teachings of the Magisterium, in understanding, expression, and number, is necessarily always significantly less than the sum total of all the teachings of the Deposit of Faith. And further development in the understanding, expression, and number of truths taught is always possible. For God is infinite Truth.


4. The Magisterium can only be exercised by the Bishops and the Pope. Individual Bishops, other than the Pope, can only exercise the Magisterium non-infallibly.

5. The Magisterium teaches infallibly only under certain conditions; whenever those conditions are lacking, the teaching is non-infallible. All non-infallible teachings allow for the limited possibility of error, but never to such an extent as to lead the faithful away from salvation.

6. The Magisterium is limited to teaching the truths found, explicitly or implicitly, in the Deposit of Faith (Tradition and Scripture). Nothing outside of the Deposit of Faith can be taught by the Magisterium, even under the non-infallible Ordinary Magisterium. All things to the contrary not withstanding.


7. The faithful are only required to believe with theological faith, that is, with the full assent of faith properly due to the teachings of Christ, the infallible teachings of Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium. Any requirement to adhere to the non-infallible teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium must always necessarily have significant limitations in the type and degree of assent, and must always necessarily permit the possibility of limited faithful dissent. For the non-infallible teachings admit a limited possibility of error, but belief in error is never required by Christ.

8. It is not always clear which teachings are infallible and which are non-infallible. It is not always clear whether an idea is a teaching of the Magisterium at all. Nor will it ever be completely clear, prior to the Return of Jesus Christ.

9. The temporal decisions of the Pope and the Bishops are not teachings, but judgments of the prudential order. Any exercise of the temporal authority of the Church is fallible.


10. The Pope and the Bishops, in whom the ability and authority of the Magisterium solely resides, are imperfect and are sinners. As a result, they teach less clearly and less fully than they otherwise could teach, and their ordinary non-infallible teaching contain more errors and more imperfections than it otherwise would contain.

11. The Magisterium often teaches later, rather than sooner. As time passes, the truths of the Faith become clearer to the Church on earth, and this understanding eventually, and usually very slowly, makes its way into the teachings of the Magisterium.

12. The Magisterium is unresponsive to the immediate needs of the faithful for guidance on particular questions of faith and morals. The Magisterium does not respond, in a timely manner, to each and every error of faith or morals that develops in the world, or among the faithful, or even among the Bishops. Thus, the faithful are often left, for a considerable period of time, without the guidance of the Magisterium on a particular question of importance to their salvation.

Just to recap everything.
You have a potential fallible Magisterium who must decide if a Pope is fallible or not.
Then you have a whole list of clauses and points that describe the non-infallibily and infallibility of the Magisterium.

And right in the middle, clause 8, it says: It is not always clear which teachings are infallible and which are non-infallible.

In other words, you just tried to make a point that the RCC is infallible, but we don't really know for sure.

Its teaching about what is fallible or infallible are teaching unto itself   Since all that is self is incapable of infallibility then   ::pondering:: this does not compute

Offline skeeter

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #64 on: Tue Oct 06, 2015 - 11:12:35 »
yes yes but the greatest fools are those who think and seem to accept that even Jesus Christ , as God, could be wrong - He really knowing human nature as it is foresaw all this bickering over the issue of infallibility of the Pope even after being inspired by the Holy Ghost and provided an insurance against it namely the Magisterium to confirm or deny all or any utterances by the Pope - the Magisterium consists of "successors of the Apostles" as at Jn.14:26 - wincam

Huh? Where did you read that Jesus established a Magisterium?
And who declares the Magisterium to be infallible? The Pope?

From your own Catholic resources:

1. The Magisterium is incapable of fully understanding every truth found in the Deposit of Faith, for the Faith contains mysteries beyond complete human comprehension. Therefore, the teachings of the Magisterium are always necessarily significantly limited in their understanding of the teachings of the Deposit of Faith.

2. The Magisterium is incapable of fully expressing every truth found in the Deposit of Faith, for the Faith contains truths beyond the ability of mere human language to fully express. Therefore, the teachings of the Magisterium are always necessarily a limited expression of the ineffable truths found in the Deposit of Faith.

3. The Magisterium is incapable of teaching every truth, each one of which, individually, it is capable of teaching. For the Deposit of Faith contains so many truths that, “if each one was written, the world itself, I suppose, would be unable to hold the books that would be written.” (Jn 21:25).

Therefore, the sum total of all the teachings of the Magisterium, in understanding, expression, and number, is necessarily always significantly less than the sum total of all the teachings of the Deposit of Faith. And further development in the understanding, expression, and number of truths taught is always possible. For God is infinite Truth.


4. The Magisterium can only be exercised by the Bishops and the Pope. Individual Bishops, other than the Pope, can only exercise the Magisterium non-infallibly.

5. The Magisterium teaches infallibly only under certain conditions; whenever those conditions are lacking, the teaching is non-infallible. All non-infallible teachings allow for the limited possibility of error, but never to such an extent as to lead the faithful away from salvation.

6. The Magisterium is limited to teaching the truths found, explicitly or implicitly, in the Deposit of Faith (Tradition and Scripture). Nothing outside of the Deposit of Faith can be taught by the Magisterium, even under the non-infallible Ordinary Magisterium. All things to the contrary not withstanding.


7. The faithful are only required to believe with theological faith, that is, with the full assent of faith properly due to the teachings of Christ, the infallible teachings of Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium. Any requirement to adhere to the non-infallible teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium must always necessarily have significant limitations in the type and degree of assent, and must always necessarily permit the possibility of limited faithful dissent. For the non-infallible teachings admit a limited possibility of error, but belief in error is never required by Christ.

8. It is not always clear which teachings are infallible and which are non-infallible. It is not always clear whether an idea is a teaching of the Magisterium at all. Nor will it ever be completely clear, prior to the Return of Jesus Christ.

9. The temporal decisions of the Pope and the Bishops are not teachings, but judgments of the prudential order. Any exercise of the temporal authority of the Church is fallible.


10. The Pope and the Bishops, in whom the ability and authority of the Magisterium solely resides, are imperfect and are sinners. As a result, they teach less clearly and less fully than they otherwise could teach, and their ordinary non-infallible teaching contain more errors and more imperfections than it otherwise would contain.

11. The Magisterium often teaches later, rather than sooner. As time passes, the truths of the Faith become clearer to the Church on earth, and this understanding eventually, and usually very slowly, makes its way into the teachings of the Magisterium.

12. The Magisterium is unresponsive to the immediate needs of the faithful for guidance on particular questions of faith and morals. The Magisterium does not respond, in a timely manner, to each and every error of faith or morals that develops in the world, or among the faithful, or even among the Bishops. Thus, the faithful are often left, for a considerable period of time, without the guidance of the Magisterium on a particular question of importance to their salvation.

Just to recap everything.
You have a potential fallible Magisterium who must decide if a Pope is fallible or not.
Then you have a whole list of clauses and points that describe the non-infallibily and infallibility of the Magisterium.

And right in the middle, clause 8, it says: It is not always clear which teachings are infallible and which are non-infallible.

In other words, you just tried to make a point that the RCC is infallible, but we don't really know for sure.

Its teaching about what is fallible or infallible are teaching unto itself   Since all that is self is incapable of infallibility then   ::pondering:: this does not compute
sounds to me like whatever they say could be right, but not necessarily so.

nothing new in that.
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 06, 2015 - 17:47:32 by skeeter »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #65 on: Tue Oct 06, 2015 - 12:53:50 »
yes yes but the greatest fools are those who think and seem to accept that even Jesus Christ , as God, could be wrong - He really knowing human nature as it is foresaw all this bickering over the issue of infallibility of the Pope even after being inspired by the Holy Ghost and provided an insurance against it namely the Magisterium to confirm or deny all or any utterances by the Pope - the Magisterium consists of "successors of the Apostles" as at Jn.14:26 - wincam

Huh? Where did you read that Jesus established a Magisterium?
And who declares the Magisterium to be infallible? The Pope?

From your own Catholic resources:

1. The Magisterium is incapable of fully understanding every truth found in the Deposit of Faith, for the Faith contains mysteries beyond complete human comprehension. Therefore, the teachings of the Magisterium are always necessarily significantly limited in their understanding of the teachings of the Deposit of Faith.

2. The Magisterium is incapable of fully expressing every truth found in the Deposit of Faith, for the Faith contains truths beyond the ability of mere human language to fully express. Therefore, the teachings of the Magisterium are always necessarily a limited expression of the ineffable truths found in the Deposit of Faith.

3. The Magisterium is incapable of teaching every truth, each one of which, individually, it is capable of teaching. For the Deposit of Faith contains so many truths that, “if each one was written, the world itself, I suppose, would be unable to hold the books that would be written.” (Jn 21:25).

Therefore, the sum total of all the teachings of the Magisterium, in understanding, expression, and number, is necessarily always significantly less than the sum total of all the teachings of the Deposit of Faith. And further development in the understanding, expression, and number of truths taught is always possible. For God is infinite Truth.


4. The Magisterium can only be exercised by the Bishops and the Pope. Individual Bishops, other than the Pope, can only exercise the Magisterium non-infallibly.

5. The Magisterium teaches infallibly only under certain conditions; whenever those conditions are lacking, the teaching is non-infallible. All non-infallible teachings allow for the limited possibility of error, but never to such an extent as to lead the faithful away from salvation.

6. The Magisterium is limited to teaching the truths found, explicitly or implicitly, in the Deposit of Faith (Tradition and Scripture). Nothing outside of the Deposit of Faith can be taught by the Magisterium, even under the non-infallible Ordinary Magisterium. All things to the contrary not withstanding.


7. The faithful are only required to believe with theological faith, that is, with the full assent of faith properly due to the teachings of Christ, the infallible teachings of Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium. Any requirement to adhere to the non-infallible teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium must always necessarily have significant limitations in the type and degree of assent, and must always necessarily permit the possibility of limited faithful dissent. For the non-infallible teachings admit a limited possibility of error, but belief in error is never required by Christ.

8. It is not always clear which teachings are infallible and which are non-infallible. It is not always clear whether an idea is a teaching of the Magisterium at all. Nor will it ever be completely clear, prior to the Return of Jesus Christ.

9. The temporal decisions of the Pope and the Bishops are not teachings, but judgments of the prudential order. Any exercise of the temporal authority of the Church is fallible.


10. The Pope and the Bishops, in whom the ability and authority of the Magisterium solely resides, are imperfect and are sinners. As a result, they teach less clearly and less fully than they otherwise could teach, and their ordinary non-infallible teaching contain more errors and more imperfections than it otherwise would contain.

11. The Magisterium often teaches later, rather than sooner. As time passes, the truths of the Faith become clearer to the Church on earth, and this understanding eventually, and usually very slowly, makes its way into the teachings of the Magisterium.

12. The Magisterium is unresponsive to the immediate needs of the faithful for guidance on particular questions of faith and morals. The Magisterium does not respond, in a timely manner, to each and every error of faith or morals that develops in the world, or among the faithful, or even among the Bishops. Thus, the faithful are often left, for a considerable period of time, without the guidance of the Magisterium on a particular question of importance to their salvation.

Written by some guy on some website somewhere.

Not exactly an official resource by any stretch of the imagination.

Offline wincam

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #66 on: Fri Oct 09, 2015 - 05:54:44 »
besides the magisterum, Catholics also have lay Catholic organisations as a check on infallibility one such may be found at  www.proecclesia.com - with Protestants, however, it seems there is no such constraints and anyone and no one at one and the same time can be infallible and of course all more infallible than the Pope - wincam

Offline Alan

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #67 on: Fri Oct 09, 2015 - 06:44:12 »
besides the magisterum, Catholics also have lay Catholic organisations as a check on infallibility one such may be found at  www.proecclesia.com - with Protestants, however, it seems there is no such constraints and anyone and no one at one and the same time can be infallible and of course all more infallible than the Pope - wincam



I would never claim to be infallible and moreover I would reject any man that claims he is infallible, but at the end of the day we have the word of God as our source, to which no books or websites can equival.

Offline wincam

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #68 on: Fri Oct 09, 2015 - 10:13:13 »
besides the magisterum, Catholics also have lay Catholic organisations as a check on infallibility one such may be found at  www.proecclesia.com - with Protestants, however, it seems there is no such constraints and anyone and no one at one and the same time can be infallible and of course all more infallible than the Pope - wincam



I would never claim to be infallible and moreover I would reject any man that claims he is infallible, but at the end of the day we have the word of God as our source, to which no books or websites can equival.



no doubt we have the word of God  - its what has been and is being done to it by fallible men that disturbs me - look around and see for yourself - wincam

Offline Alan

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Re: Infallibility ?
« Reply #69 on: Fri Oct 09, 2015 - 10:43:31 »
besides the magisterum, Catholics also have lay Catholic organisations as a check on infallibility one such may be found at  www.proecclesia.com - with Protestants, however, it seems there is no such constraints and anyone and no one at one and the same time can be infallible and of course all more infallible than the Pope - wincam



I would never claim to be infallible and moreover I would reject any man that claims he is infallible, but at the end of the day we have the word of God as our source, to which no books or websites can equival.



no doubt we have the word of God  - its what has been and is being done to it by fallible men that disturbs me - look around and see for yourself - wincam



Which brings us full circle to the beginning of this (and many others) discussion.

 

     
anything