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Author Topic: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?  (Read 17887 times)

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Catholic Crusader

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #70 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 10:58:33 »
Mary is not the queen of heaven or any queen at all.  She is the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Mary is not in heaven because she is dead and will be in the resurrection of the just when Christ returns to earth.  My God, this is all written in the Word of God and I can't believe there is even a discussion of Mary as to whether or not she is the so-called "queen of heaven"!?? 

It is man's doctrines - it cannot be found anywhere in The Word of God; that is, the  rightly-divided Word of Truth.



I believe you have "wrongly" divided the Word of God. I invite you to read this earlier post:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24888.msg475161#msg475161

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #70 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 10:58:33 »

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #71 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 11:05:15 »
Mary is not the queen of heaven or any queen at all.  She is the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Mary is not in heaven because she is dead and will be in the resurrection of the just when Christ returns to earth.  My God, this is all written in the Word of God and I can't believe there is even a discussion of Mary as to whether or not she is the so-called "queen of heaven"!?? 

It is man's doctrines - it cannot be found anywhere in The Word of God; that is, the  rightly-divided Word of Truth.


I agree with you Alethes, and I believe many others here do too. If something is not found in the Scriptures, you should not labor to explain it with the Scriptures. Despite people who will claim typology or historical evidences, or other things they esteem as valuable as Scripture. The fact remains that these doctrines are not found in the New Testament or anywhere else in Scripture.

We should remember that the words of men are not as valuable as the Word of God.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #71 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 11:05:15 »

Offline Alethes

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #72 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 11:27:51 »
Mary is not the queen of heaven or any queen at all.  She is the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Mary is not in heaven because she is dead and will be in the resurrection of the just when Christ returns to earth.  My God, this is all written in the Word of God and I can't believe there is even a discussion of Mary as to whether or not she is the so-called "queen of heaven"!?? 

It is man's doctrines - it cannot be found anywhere in The Word of God; that is, the  rightly-divided Word of Truth.



I believe you have "wrongly" divided the Word of God. I invite you to read this earlier post:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24888.msg475161#msg475161



I have read it and that is what I'm responding to and saying it is totally inaccurate - it is not the Word of God.  There is no Mary, queen of heaven.  There is no Mary in heaven because she is dead and will remain dead until Christ returns to earth and the resurrection of the just occurs.  God invite you to read and study His Word on the resurrections of the just and unjust, and on the gathering together of born-again Christians (the Church of the Body of Christ) before the events recorded in Revelation occur.   It's all there in the Bible, in black and white; but, Mary, the supposed queen of heaven, is not found anywhere in the Bible.

Catholic Crusader

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #73 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 12:11:45 »
Mary is not the queen of heaven or any queen at all.  She is the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Mary is not in heaven because she is dead and will be in the resurrection of the just when Christ returns to earth.  My God, this is all written in the Word of God and I can't believe there is even a discussion of Mary as to whether or not she is the so-called "queen of heaven"!?? 

It is man's doctrines - it cannot be found anywhere in The Word of God; that is, the  rightly-divided Word of Truth.



I believe you have "wrongly" divided the Word of God. I invite you to read this earlier post:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24888.msg475161#msg475161



I have read it and that is what I'm responding to and saying it is totally inaccurate - it is not the Word of God.  There is no Mary, queen of heaven.  There is no Mary in heaven because she is dead and will remain dead until Christ returns to earth and the resurrection of the just occurs.  God invite you to read and study His Word on the resurrections of the just and unjust, and on the gathering together of born-again Christians (the Church of the Body of Christ) before the events recorded in Revelation occur.   It's all there in the Bible, in black and white; but, Mary, the supposed queen of heaven, is not found anywhere in the Bible.


Are you saying no one is in heaven now? If you are, I doubt that most of your own fellow protestants would agree with that.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #73 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 12:11:45 »

blituri

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #74 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 12:48:35 »
In the monarchy of King David, as well as in other ancient kingdoms of the Near East, the mother of the ruling king held an important office in the royal court and played a key part in the process of dynastic succession. In fact, the king’s mother ruled as queen, not his wife.

Well, we might remember that it was because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai that God turned the nation over to worship the Starry Host (Acts 7, etc., etc.).  When the elders finally "fired God" and demanded a human king God knew that it was so that they could WORSHIP like the Goyim or Gentiles.

And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. 1 Samuel 8:5

But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. 1 Samuel 8:6

You say, "We want to be like the nations, like the peoples of the world, who serve wood and stone." But what you have in mind will never happen. Eze.20:32


God finally abandoned them to a Monarchy and whatever they called him, God says that He abandoned them to the Starry Hosts: this was the same Dionysus (aka new wineskins) worship of Egypt and other "national" systems.  Even the term Levites and historian knew that the "god of the Jews" was Dionysus and that is why they piped, hoping that Jesus would lament and dance the  new wineskin's initiation: He didn't, they murdered Him.

Here Symmachus, greatly wondering at what was spoken, says: What, Lamprias, will you permit our tutelar god,  called Evius, the inciter of women, famous for the honors he has conferred upon him by madmen, to be inscribed and enrolled in the mysteries of the Jews?

What they do within I know not; but it is very probable that they perform the rites of Bacchus. First they have little trumpets, such as the Grecians used to have at their Bacchanalia to call upon their gods withal. Others go before them playing upon harps, which they call Levites, whether so named from Lusius or Evius,--either word agrees with Bacchus


That is why all of the proof-texts used by Payne, Burgess, Knowles, Johnson, Dunning, Downen, Faust, etc. are from these same "pluckers" of harps doing bad deeds.

Amos 6:1 Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came!

AN EXAMPLE OF A KING'S MOTHER

2Kings 11:1 And when Athaliah the mother of Ahaziah saw that her son was dead, she arose and destroyed all the seed royal.
2Kings 11:2 But Jehosheba, the daughter of king Joram, sister of Ahaziah,
        took Joash the son of Ahaziah, and stole him from among the king’s sons which were slain;
        and they hid him, even him and his nurse, in the bedchamber from Athaliah,
        so that he was not slain.
2Kings 11:3 And he was with her hid in the house of the LORD six years.
        And Athaliah did reign over the land.


However, Jehoiada, had a plab proving that the TRUMPETS are always a sound of judgment.

2Kings 11:13 And when Athaliah heard the noise of the guard and of the people, she came to the people into the temple of the LORD.
2Kings 11:14 And when she looked, behold, the king stood by a pillar, as the manner was, and the princes and the trumpeters by the king, and all the people of the land rejoiced, and blew with trumpets: and Athaliah rent her clothes, and cried, Treason, Treason.
2Kings 11:20 And all the people of the land rejoiced, and the city was in quiet: and they slew Athaliah with the sword beside the king’s house.


In the Bible and lots of contemporaneous literature, the Mother of the Gods (Lucifer, Zoe) is "a singing and harp playing prostitute" in the Garden of Eden and uses "rhetoricians, singers and instrument players" as SORCERERS in Revelation 17-18

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #74 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 12:48:35 »



da525382

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #75 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 13:23:00 »
In the Bible and lots of contemporaneous literature, the Mother of the Gods (Lucifer, Zoe) is "a singing and harp playing prostitute" in the Garden of Eden and uses "rhetoricians, singers and instrument players" as SORCERERS in Revelation 17-18

So when John told us in Revelation he heard music from heaven as the sounds of harps, are you telling us he was hearing prostitutes?

Catholic Crusader

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #76 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 13:24:29 »
.....God finally abandoned them to a Monarchy and whatever they called him, God says that He abandoned them to the Starry Hosts.....

There is an error in your logic.  You seem to think that because the old testament Queens are imperfect that this somehow nullifies their ability to be types.  All Old Testament types are naturally imperfect but they point to their perfection in Christ.

 Moses was an old testament type of Jesus. Moses gave us the law and led the Israelites out of bondage.  Jesus gave us the new law and led us out of the bondage of sin.  Is the fact that Moses was a sinner grounds to negate the fact that he is a type of Jesus?  No it is not.  And the fact that the old testament Queens are flawed does not change the fact that they are types of a new queen, Mary.

blituri

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #77 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 14:03:15 »
Nope, the Monarchy was a CURSE and the kings were given in God's anger to carry out the captivity and death sentence.

The TYPE of the body or Church of Christ wa the Qahal, synagogue or "church in the wilderness."

No common people every participated in this cursed system: they attended Synagogue to rest, read and discuss the Word of God: that was EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing.

The ekklesia Jesus used as a pattern had an elected president for the year, no clergy and no rituals because it was for VOCAL INSTRUCTION ONLY. 

All of the prophets speaking by the Spirit OF Christ denounced the whole system, defined is as an imposed curse and the CLERGY as true parasites. 

It is true that Moses gave them The Book of the Covenant: they rose up in musical idolatry and God cursed them with The Book of the Law to protect the people FROM kings and clergy.  The people generally were blinded at Mount Sinai and Paul sais that they would not be able to read BLACK text on white paper until they converted or were baptized (immersed, clothed, buried) into Christ.

Moses even prophesied of ANOTHER prophet like Him and said: "Him you will hear." The Monarchy rejected The Law of Moses which provided for no human kings, and were abandoned to "a new style of jubilating praise" which was called SABAZIANISM or Dionysus whom they worshipped in Egypt.

The Church of Christ borrows NOTHING from the Monarchy but LEAPFROGS back to Abraham where the priests were heads of families and people walked by FAITH and not by a single ritual.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #78 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 14:05:26 »
And the Catholic church introduced this SANGING called A CAPELLA?

blituri

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #79 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 14:14:57 »
That is true, as I have said, said, said: The pope in the Sistine did not allow instruments as late as 1911.  He USED clergy singers singing the Hebrew "falsetto." They had to be male to be clergy but the MUST sing and look and act like WIMMIN who were often emasculated to serve the Mother of Harlots (Rev 17) as lusted after fruits as speakers, singers and musicians Paul called SORCERERS (Rev 18)

When he fled for his life a Pope heard the A Castratos singing opera: He bought him one of those and tossed out the falsettos (new style praise singers) and used the castrated singers. They sang a simple form of harmony as a choir which didn't exist before about 1250.  A capella got "twisted in the wind" to become Acappella.  However, the chapel or CAPER was named after a general's goat skin tent. And history knows that the CAPELLA was real "goat singers" and a star or constellation. Therefore, they are still "giving heed to" or worshiping the HEAVENLY STARS.

That is why the BEAST in Revelation is PAN: half goat sings and plays his pipes. It was PAN Jesus threatened when He promised to build His EKKLESIA on this ROCK: a giant slab outside of the Gates of Hell or Pan's cave where they sacrificed infants and knew that Pan was happy when the spring of living waters down below turned bloody.

The law made the Pope quit castrating as late as the 1700's and they wrote "trousers songs" form men who were really women.

Offline Alethes

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #80 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 14:38:18 »
Mary is not the queen of heaven or any queen at all.  She is the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Mary is not in heaven because she is dead and will be in the resurrection of the just when Christ returns to earth.  My God, this is all written in the Word of God and I can't believe there is even a discussion of Mary as to whether or not she is the so-called "queen of heaven"!?? 

It is man's doctrines - it cannot be found anywhere in The Word of God; that is, the  rightly-divided Word of Truth.



I believe you have "wrongly" divided the Word of God. I invite you to read this earlier post:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24888.msg475161#msg475161



I have read it and that is what I'm responding to and saying it is totally inaccurate - it is not the Word of God.  There is no Mary, queen of heaven.  There is no Mary in heaven because she is dead and will remain dead until Christ returns to earth and the resurrection of the just occurs.  God invite you to read and study His Word on the resurrections of the just and unjust, and on the gathering together of born-again Christians (the Church of the Body of Christ) before the events recorded in Revelation occur.   It's all there in the Bible, in black and white; but, Mary, the supposed queen of heaven, is not found anywhere in the Bible.


Are you saying no one is in heaven now? If you are, I doubt that most of your own fellow protestants would agree with that.


No, I'm not saying no one is in heaven with God other than Jesus Christ and God's angels....GOD is saying so.   Not Protestant...wrong guess.  I'm Christian, a fellow believer with those who believe what the Bible teaches, not what man teaches. 

blituri

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #81 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 15:03:32 »
Note that the 144,000 are on the Earth and what they hear is what they can also see because it is in their SPACE.

AND I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Fathers name written in their foreheads. Rev 14:1

What they heard was from heaven.

And I heard a sound from HEAVEN
        LIKE the roar of rushing waters and
        LIKE a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was
        LIKE that of harpists playing their harps. Rev 14:2NIV


When Paul repudiated those worshiping the GOD NAMED UNKNOWN, he was repudiating all of the pagan musical madness which CLAIMED to "lead you to ascend into the presence of God." Something Paul outlawed.  Paul said of God that "in Him we live, move and have our being." Therefore, heaven does not speak of the New Jerusalem but:

3772.  ouranos, oo-ran-os´; perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity): -- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

No one PLAYS harps but we hear the SOUNDS: all of these SOUNDS speak of WARFARE ot the panic created in the pagan temples (theaters) Paul condemns.

Rev. 14:6 And I SAW another angel fly in the midst of HEAVEN
        having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them
        that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Rev. 14:7 Saying with a loud voice,
        Fear God, and give glory to him;
        for the hour of his judgment is come:
        and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea,
        and the fountains of waters.


5399.  phobeo, fob-eh´-o; from 5401; to frighten, i.e. (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy, to be in awe of, i.e. revere: -- be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.

Rev. 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

In Revelation 18 the Mother of Harlots is BABYLON and she uses "lusted after fruits" as rhetoricians, singers and instrument players. John calls the SORCERERS and they will also be silenced and the CANDLES or the "seven spirit OF Christ will be removed" and will NEVER shine again.
 
Wrath includes 2380. qu/w thuo, thoo´-o; a primary verb; properly, to rush (breathe hard, blow, smoke), i.e. (by implication) to sacrifice (properly, by fire, but genitive case); by extension to immolate (slaughter for any purpose): — kill, (do) sacrifice, slay.

Echeion , ( [êchos] ) drum, gong, Plu.Crass.23, Apollod. ap. Sch. Theoc.2.36, Procop.Gaz.Ecphr.p.153B.; tambourine, as head-dress, Herm.Trism.in Rev.Phil.32.254; used for stage-thunder, Sch.Ar. Nu.292; as sounding-boards in the theatre, Vitr.5.5.2.

Isaiah 30 proves that HELL was prepared as a place of Judgment: you know that He is repaying you when you hear the wind, string and percussion instruments:

And his breath [Spirit], as rushing water [sound of warrior plucking bows and lyres] ,n a valley, reach reach as far as the neck, and be divided, to confound the nations for their vain error; error also shall pursue them and overtake them. Isaiah 30:28 LXX

Must ye always rejoice, and go into my holy places continually, as they that keep a feast? and must ye go with a pipe, as those that rejoice into the mountain of the Lord, to the God of Israel Isaiah 30:29 LXX

and the Lord shall make his glorious voice to be heard and the wrath [Greek: Orge] of his arm, to make a display with wrath and anger and devouring flame: he shall lighten terribly, and his wrath shall be as water and violent hail. Isaiah 30:30 LXX

Is. 30:31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian [Egypt, Judah as a nation] be beaten down, which smote with a rod.
Is. 30:32 And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the LORD shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it.
Is. 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.


LUCIFER (ZOE) as the king/queen of Babylon goes to the same place:

Is. 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the maggots cover thee.

Amos 5:23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.


When you HEAR those sounds because you MADE them in that SPACE where you can see and hear, then the Bible and all known literature proves that you have been captive because you enabled people who declared the Bible as "sifted of all truth."

For the majority who did not get suckered into the Mother of Harlots worship, THAT was a sign that WE had better get busy preaching the GOSPEL to all nations and let those taken captive in the mega-churches wait for a certain burning time.

When they HEAR those sounds, 300-400 out of 900 FLEE for their lives. That is because they have A holy spirit. I don't know how you could expect to find a more explicit MARK or SIGN. Don't worry if you cannot digets this: in the literature your option is to "eat, drink and make merry." That is why COME TO THE TABLE preaches the Lord's Supper as a SACRIFICIAL MEAL God EATS while we BURN THE FAT with a great jubilating sound.


Catholic Crusader

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #82 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 15:10:23 »
That is true, as I have said, said, said: The pope in the Sistine did not allow instruments as late as 1911.  He USED clergy singers singing the Hebrew "falsetto." They had to be male to be clergy but the MUST sing and look and act like WIMMIN who were often emasculated to serve the Mother of Harlots (Rev 17) as lusted after fruits as speakers, singers and musicians Paul called SORCERERS (Rev 18)

When he fled for his life a Pope heard the A Castratos singing opera: He bought him one of those and tossed out the falsettos (new style praise singers) and used the castrated singers. They sang a simple form of harmony as a choir which didn't exist before about 1250.  A capella got "twisted in the wind" to become Acappella.  However, the chapel or CAPER was named after a general's goat skin tent. And history knows that the CAPELLA was real "goat singers" and a star or constellation. Therefore, they are still "giving heed to" or worshiping the HEAVENLY STARS.

That is why the BEAST in Revelation is PAN: half goat sings and plays his pipes. It was PAN Jesus threatened when He promised to build His EKKLESIA on this ROCK: a giant slab outside of the Gates of Hell or Pan's cave where they sacrificed infants and knew that Pan was happy when the spring of living waters down below turned bloody.

The law made the Pope quit castrating as late as the 1700's and they wrote "trousers songs" form men who were really women.

Good Lord. Please tell me that this is some sick joke. I hope I don't get reported for saying this, but you need psychiatric counseling, because those stories are so fantastic that nobody in their right mind could believe them

blituri

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #83 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 15:35:43 »
I take my pills regularly but I can still read facts: never heard about the Babylonian Captivity as Luther calle it?

Offline Alethes

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #84 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 17:39:25 »
Note that the 144,000 are on the Earth and what they hear is what they can also see because it is in their SPACE.

AND I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Fathers name written in their foreheads. Rev 14:1

What they heard was from heaven.

And I heard a sound from HEAVEN
        LIKE the roar of rushing waters and
        LIKE a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was
        LIKE that of harpists playing their harps. Rev 14:2NIV


When Paul repudiated those worshiping the GOD NAMED UNKNOWN, he was repudiating all of the pagan musical madness which CLAIMED to "lead you to ascend into the presence of God." Something Paul outlawed.  Paul said of God that "in Him we live, move and have our being." Therefore, heaven does not speak of the New Jerusalem but:

3772.  ouranos, oo-ran-os´; perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity): -- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

No one PLAYS harps but we hear the SOUNDS: all of these SOUNDS speak of WARFARE ot the panic created in the pagan temples (theaters) Paul condemns.

Rev. 14:6 And I SAW another angel fly in the midst of HEAVEN
        having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them
        that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Rev. 14:7 Saying with a loud voice,
        Fear God, and give glory to him;
        for the hour of his judgment is come:
        and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea,
        and the fountains of waters.


5399.  phobeo, fob-eh´-o; from 5401; to frighten, i.e. (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy, to be in awe of, i.e. revere: -- be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.

Rev. 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

In Revelation 18 the Mother of Harlots is BABYLON and she uses "lusted after fruits" as rhetoricians, singers and instrument players. John calls the SORCERERS and they will also be silenced and the CANDLES or the "seven spirit OF Christ will be removed" and will NEVER shine again.
 
Wrath includes 2380. qu/w thuo, thoo´-o; a primary verb; properly, to rush (breathe hard, blow, smoke), i.e. (by implication) to sacrifice (properly, by fire, but genitive case); by extension to immolate (slaughter for any purpose): — kill, (do) sacrifice, slay.

Echeion , ( [êchos] ) drum, gong, Plu.Crass.23, Apollod. ap. Sch. Theoc.2.36, Procop.Gaz.Ecphr.p.153B.; tambourine, as head-dress, Herm.Trism.in Rev.Phil.32.254; used for stage-thunder, Sch.Ar. Nu.292; as sounding-boards in the theatre, Vitr.5.5.2.

Isaiah 30 proves that HELL was prepared as a place of Judgment: you know that He is repaying you when you hear the wind, string and percussion instruments:

And his breath [Spirit], as rushing water [sound of warrior plucking bows and lyres] ,n a valley, reach reach as far as the neck, and be divided, to confound the nations for their vain error; error also shall pursue them and overtake them. Isaiah 30:28 LXX

Must ye always rejoice, and go into my holy places continually, as they that keep a feast? and must ye go with a pipe, as those that rejoice into the mountain of the Lord, to the God of Israel Isaiah 30:29 LXX

and the Lord shall make his glorious voice to be heard and the wrath [Greek: Orge] of his arm, to make a display with wrath and anger and devouring flame: he shall lighten terribly, and his wrath shall be as water and violent hail. Isaiah 30:30 LXX

Is. 30:31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian [Egypt, Judah as a nation] be beaten down, which smote with a rod.
Is. 30:32 And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the LORD shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it.
Is. 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.


LUCIFER (ZOE) as the king/queen of Babylon goes to the same place:

Is. 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the maggots cover thee.

Amos 5:23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.


When you HEAR those sounds because you MADE them in that SPACE where you can see and hear, then the Bible and all known literature proves that you have been captive because you enabled people who declared the Bible as "sifted of all truth."

For the majority who did not get suckered into the Mother of Harlots worship, THAT was a sign that WE had better get busy preaching the GOSPEL to all nations and let those taken captive in the mega-churches wait for a certain burning time.

When they HEAR those sounds, 300-400 out of 900 FLEE for their lives. That is because they have A holy spirit. I don't know how you could expect to find a more explicit MARK or SIGN. Don't worry if you cannot digets this: in the literature your option is to "eat, drink and make merry." That is why COME TO THE TABLE preaches the Lord's Supper as a SACRIFICIAL MEAL God EATS while we BURN THE FAT with a great jubilating sound.


I notice that you mostly quote from Revelation which is John describing what was revealed to him by Christ concerning things that will occur in the future.  The 144,000 are the twelve tribes that will be in the resurrection of the just and are with Christ during the 1000 years when Christ reigns and Satan is bound.  They are not in heaven now.  They are not literal souls in heaven and unless you fully understand Revelation it is not the book you want to be pulling out verses from to prove the dead are living now in heaven, hell or wherever, which is a total contradiction to the rest of Scripture.  The Epistles which are addressed specifically to born-again Christian teaches us that that the dead are not alive now.  We as Christian, having Christ in us, the hope of glory await His return when we will be given our new spirutual bodies and be with Christ forevermore.

The problem is that most of us maintain certain beliefs which we unthinkingly accept as true without checking them against the truth of the Word of God.  When we find ourselves acting in this mechanical fashion, we must slow down,  take inventory of our mental patterns and see if our beliefs are in agreement with the Word.  We as Christians are called of God to study the Word of God as workmen who need not to be ashamed of our workmanship rightly dividing the Word of Truth.  So that we might be able to give testimony to the faith of Jesus Christ that is in us, we accept the authority of the Word as the basis of our belief and actions. 

Those who believe and understand the Bible, the Word of God, know that the Scriptures teach beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is impossible to reproduce until or before the return of Christ persons who once lived and died.  Therefore, only if the person denies the resurrection of Christ and His return can that person believe the dead are alive now.

I Corinthians 15 is the basic Scripture in understanding the resurrections and the return of Christ.  Also read and study I Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. It is also very important to know what Scripture teaches us about the body, soul and spirit in order to understand what happens to the soul when a person dies.

If you want to know what the Bible teaches about the body, soul and spirt, click on the following link! ::smile::

http://www1.itech.net/~ydl/BODY_SOUL_SPIRIT.htm


Offline Reformer

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #85 on: Sat Mar 15, 2008 - 22:43:40 »
   
Quote
Thanks. As I said, it all has to do with that Mary’s Queenship is first based on her maternal relationship with Jesus. Here the ancient Hebraic notion of the Queen Mother applies to Mary as Mother of the Messianic King, Jesus Christ. In ancient Israel, the most important woman in the monarchy was generally the queen mother, not the queen. In the southern kingdom of Judah, the kings’ wives were apparently never “queens.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #86 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 11:53:12 »
..... Isn't it strange that Mary is never referred to in heaven's documents, directly or by inference, as the Queen of Heaven?....

Isn't it strange that Jesus never wrote anything, and never told anyone to write a book, but you still hold a book up as authoratative?

Isn't strange that the word "Trinity" that you use is nowhere in the Bible?

When you get stuck in the false doctrine of "Sola Scripture", you miss much Christian teaching.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #87 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 11:54:35 »
Is Mary's Queenship Biblical?
By Edward P. Sri


.....One biblical theme sheds light on these questions and serves as a key for unlocking the mystery of Mary’s queenship: the Old Testament tradition of the "queen mother" in the Davidic kingdom.

In the monarchy of King David, as well as in other ancient kingdoms of the Near East, the mother of the ruling king held an important office in the royal court and played a key part in the process of dynastic succession. In fact, the king’s mother ruled as queen, not his wife.

The great pre-eminence of the king’s mother may seem odd from our modern Western perspective, in which we think of a queen as being the wife of a king. However, recall that most ancient Near-Eastern kings practiced polygamy. King Solomon had seven hundred wives (1 Kgs. 11:3)—imagine the chaos in the royal court if all seven hundred were awarded the queenship! But since each king had only one mother, one can see the practical wisdom in bestowing the queenship upon her.

A number of Old Testament passages reflect the important role of the queen mother in the Davidic kingdom. For example, almost every time the narrative of 1 and 2 Kings introduces a new monarch in Judah, it mentions the king’s mother as well, showing the mother’s intimate involvement in her royal son’s reign. Similarly, the queen mother is listed among the members of the royal court whom king Jehoiachin surrendered to the king of Babylon in 2 Kings 24:12.

Her royal office is also described by the prophet Jeremiah, who tells how the queen mother possessed a throne and a crown, symbolic of her position of authority in the kingdom: "Say to the king and the queen mother: ‘Take a lowly seat, for your beautiful crown has come down from your head. . . . Lift up your eyes and see those who come from the north. Where is the flock that was given you, your beautiful flock?’" (Jer. 13:18, 20). It is significant that God directed this oracle about the upcoming fall of Judah to both the king and his mother. Addressing both king and queen mother, Jeremiah portrays her as sharing in her son’s rule over the kingdom.

Probably the clearest example of the queen mother’s role is that of Bathsheba, wife of David and mother of Solomon. Scholars have noted the excellence of Bathsheba’s position in the kingdom once she became queen mother during Solomon’s rule. Compare the humble attitude of Bathsheba as spouse of King David (1 Kgs. 1:16–17, 31) with her majestic dignity as mother of the next king, Solomon (1 Kgs. 2:19–20). As spouse of the king, Bathsheba bows with her face to the ground and does obeisance to her husband, David, upon entering his royal chamber. In striking contrast, after her son Solomon assumed the throne and she became queen mother, Bathsheba receives a glorious reception upon meeting with her royal son:

"So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. Then she said, ‘I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.’ And the king said to her, ‘Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you’" (1 Kgs. 2:19–20).

This account reveals the sovereign prerogatives of the queen mother. Note how the king rises and bows as she enters. Bathsheba’s seat at the king’s right hand has the greatest significance. In the Bible, the right hand is the place of ultimate honor. This is seen in particular in the messianic Psalm 110 ("Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool"). In fact, many New Testament passages refer to the right-hand imagery of Psalm 110 to show Christ’s divinity and his reign with the Father over the whole universe (e.g., Hebrews 1:13). Thus, the queen mother sitting at the king’s right hand symbolizes her sharing in the king’s royal authority and illustrates how she holds the most important position in the kingdom, second only to the king.

This passage regarding Bathsheba also shows how the queen mother served as an advocate for the people, carrying petitions to the king. In 1 Kings 2:17, Adonijah asks Bathsheba to take a petition for him to King Solomon. He says to her: "Pray ask King Solomon—he will not refuse you—to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife" (1 Kgs. 2:17). It is clear that Adonijah recognizes the queen mother’s position of influence over the king, so he confidently turns to Bathsheba as an intercessor for his request.

A few Old Testament prophecies incorporate the queen mother tradition when telling of the future Messiah. One example is Isaiah 7:14, which originated during a time of dynastic crisis in Judah when Syria and Israel were threatening Jerusalem and plotting to overthrow King Ahaz. God offers Ahaz a sign that the kingdom will continue: "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Emmanuel" (Isa. 7:13–14).

On one level, this passage points to the next king (Hezekiah) as a pledge that the Davidic dynasty will continue despite the threats of invading armies. At the same time, the royal son who is to be named "Emmanuel" points to the future messianic king (cf., Isa. 9:6–7, 11:1–2). This is why the New Testament says Jesus fulfills this prophecy from Isaiah (Matt. 1:23).

For our purposes we should note how this prophecy links the mother to her royal son. Since the oracle is addressed specifically to the Davidic household and concerns the continuation of the dynasty, the young woman bearing forth the royal son would be understood as a queen mother. This has implications for our understanding of Mary. Since the mother of the king always ruled as queen mother, we should expect to find the mother of the messianic king playing the role of the true queen mother in the everlasting Kingdom of God.

With this Old Testament background, we can now more clearly see how the New Testament portrays Mary in light of the queen mother tradition.

The Gospel of Matthew has often been called the "Gospel of the Kingdom." Matthew emphasizes that Jesus is "the Son of David," who is the true King of the Jews establishing the "Kingdom of Heaven." With all this kingly imagery, it should not be surprising to find queen mother themes as well.

Right away, Matthew shows explicitly how the infant Jesus is the "Emmanuel" child as prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 (Matt. 1:23). As we saw above, this prophecy links the royal messianic child with his queen mother. Further, Matthew singles out the intimate relationship between the mother and her royal son by using the phrase "the child and his mother" five times in the first two chapters, recalling the close association between queen mother and royal son as described in the Books of Kings. Just as the queen mother was constantly mentioned alongside the Judean kings in 1 and 2 Kings, so Mary is frequently mentioned alongside her royal son, Jesus, in Matthew’s infancy narrative (Matt. 1:18; 2:11, 13, 14, 20, 21).

We find Mary portrayed against the background of Davidic kingdom motifs in Luke’s Gospel as well, especially in his accounts of the Annunciation and Visitation. First, the angel Gabriel is said to appear to a virgin betrothed to a man "of the house of David" (1:27). Then the angel tells Mary, "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end" (Luke 1:31–33).

Hear the strong Davidic overtones describing Mary and her royal son: a woman from the house of David giving birth to a son who will be the new king whose reign will never end. With echoes from the queen mother tradition of the Davidic kingdom and the mother-son prophecy of Isaiah 7:14, we can conclude that Mary is being given the vocation of queen mother.

Mary’s royal office is made even more explicit in Luke’s account of the Visitation. Elizabeth greets Mary with the title "the mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43). This title is charged with great queenly significance. In the royal court language of the ancient NearEast, the title "Mother of my Lord" was used to address the queen mother of the reigning king (who himself was addressed as "my Lord"; cf., 2 Sam. 24:21). Thus with this title Elizabeth is recognizing the great dignity of Mary’s role as the royal mother of the king, Jesus.

Finally, Mary’s queenship can be seen in the great vision described in Revelation 12: "And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery" (Rev. 12:1–2). Who is this newborn child? He is described as the messianic king exercising his dominion. In verse 5, the author of Revelation chose the messianic Psalm 2 to describe how this child will "rule all the nations with a rod of iron" (Rev. 12:5, Ps. 2:9). This royal son is taken up to heaven to sit on a throne (Rev. 12:5), and he ushers in the kingdom of God by defeating the devil: "Now the kingdom of our God has come, for the accuser has been throne down" (12:10). Certainly, this newborn child is the royal Messiah, King Jesus.

In this light it is clear who this woman is who gave birth to the messiah: It is Mary. Some people have interpreted this woman in Revelation 12 as merely a symbol either for the Old Testament people of Israel or for the New Testament Church and therefore have concluded that the woman cannot be an individual (i.e., Mary). However, this "either-or" proposition is foreign to the biblical worldview, in which individuals often symbolically represent collective groups. For instance, Adam represented all humanity (Rom. 5:19), and Jacob stood for all of Israel (Ps. 44:4). Given this biblical notion called "corporate personality," the woman in Revelation 12 should be understood as both an individual (Mary) and a symbol for the people of God.

But for our purposes, once we see that this woman is Mary, the mother of Jesus, it is important to note how she is portrayed as queen in this passage. Her royal office is hinted at by the imagery of the sun, moon, and twelve stars, which recalls the Old Testament story of Joseph’s dream in which the sun, moon, and stars bow down before him, symbolizing his future authority (Gen. 37:9–11). Her queenship is made even clearer by the crown of twelve stars on her head. Just like the queen mother in Jeremiah 13:18, here Mary is wearing a crown, symbolizing her royal office in the kingdom of heaven. In sum, Revelation 12 portrays Mary as the new queen mother in the Kingdom of God, sharing in her son’s rule over the universe.

We have seen how the Old Testament queen mother tradition serves as an important background for understanding Mary’s royal office. Indeed, the New Testament portrays Mary as the queen mother par excellence. Thus, prayers, hymns, and art giving honor to Mary’s queenship are most fitting biblical responses for Christians. In honoring her as queen mother we do not take anything away from Christ’s glory, but rather we exalt him even more by recognizing the great work he has done in her and through her.

Understanding Mary as queen mother sheds light on her important intercessory role in the Christian life. Just like the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom, Mary serves as advocate for the people in the Kingdom of God today. Thus, we should approach our queen mother with confidence, knowing that she carries our petitions to her royal son and that he responds to her as Solomon did to Bathsheba: "I will never refuse you."


source:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp

Offline kensington

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #88 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 18:24:59 »
MARY DOES NOT INTERCEDE FOR US

I Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS, who gave Himself as the ransom of all.

Now... going on down to verse 7... Paul declares He is appointed an apostle telling you the truth!! 

Anything else is a lie...  MARY does not intercede or mediate between us and Jesus or between Jesus and God in any way.

Why can't people believe the simple truth of the word of God without adding all these other people to their salvation, thus limiting what Jesus and God truly provided?  It's just nuts.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #89 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 19:05:50 »
....MARY does not intercede or mediate between us and Jesus or between Jesus and God in any way....


Wrong. (Again.) Those in heaven pray with us and for us, as in the book of Revelation when John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). A prayer is a request. When we pray to Mary and the saints in heaven, we are asking them to pray for us, the same way non-Catholic Christians ask their friends or family to pray for them.

Question: When you ask your friends or family to pray for you, does that take away from Jesus or his role as mediator? Of course not, and neither does praying to our brother and sisters in heaven. Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16). The family of God transcends death: You are still a Christian even when you are in heaven, and you can still pray for your brothers and sisters when you are there. Catholics believe Jesus when he says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive" (Luke 20:38).

Hebrews 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. "But they can't hear us" you may say. Wrong. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

I invite you to read this information:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.as

Why can't people believe the simple truth of the word of God....


I do. I just don't believe your interpretation of it.

Offline kensington

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #90 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 19:17:24 »
I Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS, who gave Himself as the ransom of all.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #91 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 19:18:56 »
I Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS, who gave Himself as the ransom of all.

Irellevant. Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #92 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 19:20:40 »
Mary does not pray for us, or participate in our lives at all.

She is no more the queen of Heaven than I am.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #93 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 19:23:56 »
I Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS, who gave Himself as the ransom of all.

This is the only thing that matters concerning who is praying for us. Jesus is the only one. That fact that Jesus allows someone in Heaven to hold a bowl where prayers are... doesn't mean they heard them, or that they are at all involved in the process of the praying ... and there is no indication by the vision that it is so. Not at all.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #94 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 19:28:12 »
What then does it mean for Mary to be the Queen of Heaven? In the Old Testament monarchy the Queen of the Davidic Kingdom was the Queen Mother. The Kings, for reasons of state and human weakness, had many wives, none of whom fittingly could be called Queen. That honor was reserved for the mother of the King, whose authority far surpassed the many "queens" married to the king. We see this is the role Bathsheba played with respect to King Solomon and the occasions when the Queen Mother acted as regent on behalf of juvenile successors to the throne.

The role of the Queen Mother, therefore, is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Mary, just as the role of the Davidic King is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Jesus. Jesus inherited the Kingdom promised to David, who was told that one of his descendants would rule forever. The angel Gabriel revealed this fact to Mary at her Annunciation,

Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:31-33)

Aside from the prophetic types present in the Kingdom of Judah, there is also the text of Psalm 45, which when speaking of the Kingdom of God also speaks of its Queen.

[6]  Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. [7] Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. [8] All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. [9] Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir. [10] Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; [11] So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. (Psalm 45:6-11, KJV)

That Kingdom ruled by God is the same as the Kingdom ruled eternally by the Son of David. It is not an earthly kingdom, though it is present on earth in the Church, but a heavenly kingdom, the Kingdom of God. The Queen of that Kingdom is the Blessed Virgin Mary,  the Mother of the Lord God Jesus Christ.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #95 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 19:30:12 »
What then does it mean for Mary to be the Queen of Heaven?

Oh yes... Back to the BOLD

Such drama. 

But to the question... It means nothing. Mary is NOT the queen of Heaven... I don't have to BOLD it, it is the truth.  ::tippinghat::

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #96 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 19:31:30 »
I Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS, who gave Himself as the ransom of all.

This is the only thing that matters concerning who is praying for us. Jesus is the only one. That fact that Jesus allows someone in Heaven to hold a bowl where prayers are... doesn't mean they heard them, or that they are at all involved in the process of the praying ... and there is no indication by the vision that it is so. Not at all.

In Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

"[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

The early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.


Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

John Chrysostom
"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #97 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 19:33:04 »
HE is the King of Kings.. He is the LORD of LORDS... His name is Jesus... Jesus... JESUS... He is the KING!

He has no queen. We are the Bride. No queen. Sorry... not true.. no way. 

The woman is Revelation is "Israel"... not Mary.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #98 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 19:35:19 »
HE is the King of Kings.. He is the LORD of LORDS... His name is Jesus... Jesus... JESUS... He is the KING!

He has no queen. We are the Bride. No queen. Sorry... not true.. no way. 

The woman is Revelation is "Israel"... not Mary.

The mother of a monarch is herself a monarch, although often derivatively from the husband and child. For example, the mother of England’s Queen Elizabeth II was herself a queen because she was the wife of King George VI. When her daughter succeeded to the throne, Elizabeth’s mother was crowned alongside her husband as queen consort and retained all of the marks of honor due a queen—including the courtesy address "Your Majesty."

In ancient Israel, the mother of the king held a unique position in the royal court, where she held the title gebirah. This term is the female equivalent of adonai ("Lord") and referred to her royal status. Since the king’s wives were known as "queens," the gebirah is sometimes referred to as the "great lady" or the "queen mother."

Unlike contemporary queen mothers, the gebirah had more authority than the king’s wives. She could assume political power if her son died, as Athaliah did after the death of her son King Ahaziah.

As the Son of David, Jesus’ kingship is informed by the Davidic monarchy, and his Mother Mary has a corresponding status. As Jesus is king, Mary is his gebirah. Jesus’ kingship extends over heaven and earth, and that is the kingdom in which Mary functions as gebirah.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #99 on: Sun Mar 16, 2008 - 19:36:51 »
Oh...  YAWN   ::sleepingsoundly::

Do you have anything else or new.. none of this is true. Nor does it prove a thing.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #100 on: Mon Mar 17, 2008 - 13:15:52 »
Do you have anything else or new..


There is only one Bible to work with.

....none of this is true....


Right. All the history of the Davidic Kindoms is just baloney. Okay.

..Nor does it prove a thing....


Of couse not, as long as you keep doing this:


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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #101 on: Tue Mar 18, 2008 - 08:30:41 »
How to Explain Mary to a Sola Scriptura Protestant
By Dwight Longenecker

( source: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea3.asp )

What do you do when a Protestant Christian challenges Catholic devotion to Mary as being excessive and distorted? My favorite correspondent came up with some Catholic quotes that were real showstoppers. Among others he quoted Pope Pius IX from his 1849 encyclical Ubi Primum (see sidebar).

My Protestant friend made the point that if Pius IX’s references to Mary were replaced by references to Jesus Christ, the quote would be uncontroversially Christian. As it is, he protested, it says things of Mary that should be said only of God. Was it true that nothing was closer to Pius IX’s heart than devotion to Mary? Could it be true that the foundation of all [his] confidence" is Mary? Is it really through her that we obtain "every hope, every grace, and all salvation"?

On the face of it, this is difficult to answer. Pius IX’s words do seem excessive. But let’s put them in context. First of all, the quotation is part of Pius IX’s letter to the world’s bishops consulting them on the wisdom of defining the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. In other words, he is speaking within a Marian document. Second, Pius IX is using the papal "we" in expressing his own opinion and love for Mary. He is not making a formal doctrinal pronouncement. Third, this statement has to be placed within the context of the whole worship and life of the Church.

Taken on its own, this quote sounds as if Pius IX worships Mary. Taken in its context, it is clear that he doesn’t. Read the words closely—clearly the Pope’s ultimate reference is to Jesus Christ. He is the foundation who is found "in Mary." Jesus Christ is the one who is the source for "every hope, every grace, and all salvation," and he comes to us through Mary.

Pius IX’s words can be explained, but there are two underlying points to remember when discussing Marian devotion with non-Catholics. First of all, if we are confronted with florid language about the Blessed Virgin we must not apologize. Devotion to Mary has been part of the worship of the Church from the earliest days. There are many examples of what might seem like excessive language about Mary from the first centuries of the Church, including some doozies from Athanasius (see the sidebar for only one example).

Protestant Christians look to Athanasius as a hero of the faith. He is the one who defended orthodoxy against the heretics. He is the one who stood up against the whole world in defense of the Christology that Protestant Christians embrace today. If some Christians object to Catholic veneration of Mary, then they are disagreeing not only with Pope Pius IX in 1849 but also with Athanasius in the fourth century.

Furthermore, the early Church considered devotion to the Blessed Virgin a sign of a proper understanding of the Incarnation and a full devotional life for Jesus Christ. It may not be those who honor Mary but those who neglect her who are distorting the historic faith. Those who dishonor Mary should pay attention to Epiphanius who writes also from the fourth century that "who dishonors the holy vessel [Mary] also dishonors his Master" (quoted by L.Gambero in Mary and the Fathers of the Church [Ignatius Press, 1999], p. 127).

The main problem with criticism of Catholic devotion to Mary is the basic Protestant mindset. Because Catholics venerate Mary, non-Catholics assume that this devotion must take the place of proper devotion to the Lord Jesus. They see the whole question in terms of either/or when it is really both/and.

A powerful analogy can be used to show non-Catholics how strange this seems to Catholics. If an Evangelical believes that devotion to Mary replaces proper devotion to Jesus, ask him to imagine what it would be like if he discovered that another Christian group thought Evangelicals were in grave error because of their emphasis on the Bible. Ask him to imagine that these fictional Christians accuse Evangelicals of neglecting Jesus because of their devotion to the Bible.

These hypothetical Christians might say, "You Evangelicals stress the Bible to the neglect of Jesus. You call your churches ‘Bible’ churches and have ‘Bible’ colleges instead of ‘Christian’ churches and colleges. Inside your church you don’t have pictures of Jesus, you don’t have crucifixes; and you don’t have the Stations of the Cross. Instead, all you have is a big central pulpit to preach the Bible."

The accusers could point out, "The New Testament says the early Christians ‘devoted themselves . . . to the breaking of the bread’ (Acts 2:42) and that the way to remember Jesus and proclaim his death is through the Eucharist (1 Cor. 11:24-26). Yet you Evangelicals celebrate the Lord’s Supper once a month, or even less often, and the main feature of your church service is a long Bible sermon.

"You even have a formal doctrine named sola scriptura. This manmade dogma is a later distortion and addition to the Christian faith—something that was unheard of both in the early Church and in Scripture itself. This dogma—which you treat as infallible—states that the Bible and not Jesus is the only source of truth. You teach your children to memorize Bible verses instead of receiving Jesus in communion. You teach them to sing, ‘The B-I-B-L-E, / Yes, that’s the book for me. / I stand alone on the word of God.’

"Notice that they are not to ‘stand alone’ on the sure foundation of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 3:11) but instead on the Bible. Evangelical preachers say that there is no way anyone can come to God without believing the Bible. They declare their undying love for the Bible instead of for Jesus. They say how their lives are dedicated to preaching the Bible instead of the cross of Christ."

If someone were to make these charges, a good Evangelical might well snort with derision. How could anyone so misunderstand the Evangelical position? Surely they are doing it on purpose. The good Evangelical would patiently explain to his critic, "You have misunderstood completely. Sola scriptura doesn’t set the Bible in opposition to Jesus. It does exactly the opposite: It helps us to glorify Jesus. Don’t you see that we love the Bible because it gives us access to our Savior? It’s true that we believe people need to know the Bible, but that’s because the written word and the incarnate Word are inextricably intertwined. You can’t have one without the other. It is really Jesus we worship and proclaim through the Bible. If you look at our practice and teaching with an open mind you would see how misguided and mistaken you are."

But the critic of the Evangelical won’t have it. He replies, "No, no. That all sounds very plausible, but you will never convince me. I just know that you worship the Bible instead of Jesus, and all your clever wordplay just goes to show how blind you really are."

To prove his point, this critic says, "I know you Evangelicals worship the Bible instead of Jesus. Just look at this quotation I found that proves it. This comes from an Evangelical one of your classic theological text books:

"The Bible . . . has produced the highest results in all walks of life. It has led to the highest type of creations in the fields of art, architecture, literature, and music. . . . You will find everywhere the higher influence of the Bible. . . . William E. Gladstone said, ‘If I am asked to name the one comfort in sorrow, the sole rule of conduct, the true guide of life, I must point to what in the words of a popular hymn is called "the old, old story," told in an old, old Book, which is God’s best and richest gift to mankind" (Henry Thiessen, Introductory Lectures in Systematic Theology [Eerdmans, 1949], p. 86; emphasis added).

"You see," the critic finishes with a flourish, "your famous Evangelical leader says that it is not Jesus but the Bible that is his ‘one comfort,’ his ‘true guide,’ and ‘God’s best and richest gift to mankind.’ It just goes to show that Evangelicals worship the Bible and not the Lord."

Of course, this is a ridiculous distortion of the Evangelical view, but the extended analogy may help Protestants understand how Catholics feel when Protestants make similarly inaccurate charges about the Catholic devotion to Mary.

In the face of such charges Catholics reply, "Are you serious? How can you possibly make such a fundamental mistake about what we believe? We admit that some Catholics may overemphasize Mary, just like some Evangelicals may take extreme views on the Bible. We don’t venerate Mary for herself but because by her free consent she gave us our Savior and because she constantly leads us to him. If you took time to study our whole teaching and practice, you’ll see it’s unreasonable to make such a towering mistake."

Offline broach972

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #102 on: Tue Mar 18, 2008 - 12:40:50 »
How to Explain Mary to a Sola Scriptura Protestant
By Dwight Longenecker


Father Longenecker is a priest at my Church.  He is quite a character--a true gentleman and scholar.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #103 on: Tue Mar 18, 2008 - 15:26:22 »
How to Explain Mary to a Sola Scriptura Protestant
By Dwight Longenecker


Father Longenecker is a priest at my Church.  He is quite a character--a true gentleman and scholar.

Wow. Thats amazing. Your lucky to have a priest like that at your parish.

Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #104 on: Tue Mar 18, 2008 - 15:31:19 »
How to Explain Mary to a Sola Scriptura Protestant
By Dwight Longenecker


Father Longenecker is a priest at my Church.  He is quite a character--a true gentleman and scholar.

I have his and David Gustafson's Mary: A Catholic-Evangelical Debate in my library, as well as Dr. Scott Hahn's Hail Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God and The Dictionary of Mary. I find all three to be very informative. Roman Catholics can marshal more scripture in defense of Mary's role as Queen of Heaven, Mother of God, etc., than Protestants might think. They have intelligent, well-thought-out arguments to marshal. I'm not quite persuaded by those arguments, but it's not the way some Protestants think: some Protestants assume that the RC Church is simply making things up and/or purposely distorting scripture, which isn't the case at all.

I do think Protestants could learn some things from Catholics relative to Mary. I'm not sure we always give Mary the honor and credit she rightly deserves.

Pax.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 18, 2008 - 15:40:59 by Lee Freeman »