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Author Topic: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?  (Read 16767 times)

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Offline Ek Pyros

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #120 on: March 22, 2008, 07:29:05 PM »
Quote from: Catholic Crusader
If you understand scripture, you know it is Poly-Veilant.
Sorry to dig up the past, but is that to say that scripture can be contradictory?  Sure we can have some double-entendres (spl) in scripture, but to say that the Woman is both Mary and the Harlot is untenable...

I'm sure somebody has brought this up by now (I hope), but if we're going to call Mary the Queen of Heaven, or Queen of the Universe as one local shrine is so named, we're going to have to realize that she held no such recognition in the eyes of her Son (the One that really matters).  Please don't give me that "Protestants make it an either/or debate when it's both/and..." junk.  The Bible itself doesn't allow for both/and with reference to Jesus.

So now to scripture:
Luke 11:27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." 28But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

So it's not just good enough to be the mother of Jesus.  Mary's relation to Jesus and God was not something that got her blessed by JESUS CHRIST--the only one who matters.  It wasn't good enough, in God's eyes, to give birth to Him.

Some more verbum dei:
Matt. 12:46While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.  47Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You." 48But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!  50"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

I find it odd--very odd--that when Jesus gives no hint of the Queenship of His mother, others come along and assign such divinity to her.  He never once IMPLIES much less states that His mother is somehow blessed.  Sure, she was honored among women--but Queen of Heaven?!  You would think God would make that clear, since, you know, Jesus is the King...  But He doesn't just omit that idea from His teachings--He even takes it to the extent that Mary seems LESS THAN His followers!  Let me reiterate: Mary was blessed, honored, among women.  But not so much that she should be WORSHIPED.  There is none righteous--not one.  We all must come to God by faith in Jesus in order to receive salvation.  Consider with me, for a minute, Jesus universal negative when He says, "No one comes to the Father except through Me."  Is Mary included in no one?  Or is she blessed enough by just birthing Jesus that we ought to pray to HER?  No--Jesus disconnects Himself from that false concept.

Luke 14:26"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."

Yes, take it in context--but notice His distinct, as it should seem to Catholicism, dissocation from His family (especially His mother).  What else does He say?

Matt 10:35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD."

No, not necessarily His household from this scripture, but it relates to the following.

Mark 6:4Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."

His family didn't believe in Him until after His resurrection.  Not good for Queen of Heaven.

Again and again Jesus Christ dissociates from His family, including His mother.  That doesn't fit with Catholicism's picture of Mary.  But it's scripture.  Verbum homo sub verbum dei.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #120 on: March 22, 2008, 07:29:05 PM »

Offline kensington

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #121 on: March 22, 2008, 11:30:37 PM »
Ah yes.. but you lost the Catholics when you used the word "worship" when speaking about Mary.

They do not consider praying to her, kneeling,
 to her, singing to her, laying roses at the feet of her statues, or calling her "Queen" as worship . 

However, I agree with everything you said. Thanks.

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #121 on: March 22, 2008, 11:30:37 PM »

Offline Ek Pyros

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #122 on: March 23, 2008, 08:41:39 AM »
Let's help them out, then.

worship:
noun - 1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred. 
2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning. 
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success. 
4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.

verb (used with object) - 6. to render religious reverence and homage to. 
7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

verb (used without object) - 8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity. 
9. to attend services of divine worship. 
10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

Hopefully that's clear enough that we're not going to have to argue semantics.

Offline broach972

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #123 on: March 23, 2008, 09:30:36 PM »
I was planning on taking a long break from posting.  But there is so much garbage one can take.  Ek Pyros, I agree that a lesson is definitely in order.  Let me educate you a little.

The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship," although Americans would say "Your Honor." This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term "worship" has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use "worship" in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term "worship" was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator. Please let me repeat this for those that still don't get it...Mary is not a diety nor is she divine.  I cannot stress this enough.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia." To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints."

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.

Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar only with their group’s use of the term "worship," they may misperceive a history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their declarations that the term is applicable only to God. They may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

Both of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakhah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "‘Behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakhah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakhah] me.’"

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakhah] you (49:8)." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakhah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.

Ek Pyros, I have no problem with you discussing Catholic doctrine.  But please, have some idea of what you are talking about before diving into a subject.  There are already too many people on this forum that do a fantastic job misrepresenting what Catholics believe in.  Due to the decrease in Catholic members lately, most of these discussions will be one-sided.  Therefore, I encourage you to do some outside research, which is obviously lacking in some threads.

Now, back to my break.  Have a great week.  ::smile::

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #123 on: March 23, 2008, 09:30:36 PM »

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #124 on: March 23, 2008, 09:46:38 PM »
Rev 19:10 "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Rev 22:9 "And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #124 on: March 23, 2008, 09:46:38 PM »



Offline GloryB

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #125 on: March 23, 2008, 10:07:38 PM »
Thank you for the easy to understand explanation broach972.  I appreciate you taking the time to write it.

Offline kensington

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #126 on: March 24, 2008, 02:29:55 PM »
broach, I believe that truth is, that most Catholics, including yourself do a great job if misrepresenting what the Catholics are doing.

The Catholic Church worships Mary... that it the bottom line. That you twist it to make it appear as simple honor makes it more valid to me.  For why do you need to justify praying to someone who has no place in line of prayers going from man to God.   But, they so much believe they need to do that, they change the meaning, they insist the focus is different.  As you do.

But, by all indications and biblical deffinitions, what the Catholic church does in reference to Mary is worship.

You deny it... you are sincere about it. But, you are sincerely wrong in that is true is worship. 


Offline Ek Pyros

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Re: Is Mary as the "Queen of Heaven" Biblical?
« Reply #127 on: March 24, 2008, 09:42:59 PM »
broach, I believe that truth is, that most Catholics, including yourself do a great job if misrepresenting what the Catholics are doing.

The Catholic Church worships Mary... that it the bottom line. That you twist it to make it appear as simple honor makes it more valid to me.  For why do you need to justify praying to someone who has no place in line of prayers going from man to God.   But, they so much believe they need to do that, they change the meaning, they insist the focus is different.  As you do.

But, by all indications and biblical deffinitions, what the Catholic church does in reference to Mary is worship.

You deny it... you are sincere about it. But, you are sincerely wrong in that is true is worship.
Thank you.  My thoughts exactly.
Quote
A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb.
One of my points above was that Jesus Himself practically dissociated with Mary.  He does not agree with the woman trying to praise Mary; nor does He acknowledge the fact that His biological family seeks to speak with Him.  What does He do?  He completely--COMPLETELY--reworks His audience's definition of who matters.  And you'll notice that it was not His (or any Biblical author's) idea to create this "hyperdulia."

You spent a lot of time with that post, or at least a lot of thought, but I find little if any of the information you brought up applicable.  This isn't an argument over semantics--no one here is overly concerned (well, other than the Catholics) with the different kinds of worship found in scripture or Old English or what have you.  We, whether this includes Catholics or is Protestant-exclusive, understand the actions the Church dictates must be taken in honor of the Virgin.  And we accurately define them as worship-ful in nature.  You've merely obfuscated the issue at hand: Catholicism worships (wrongfully) Mary.  That's not something you'd denied; you've merely tried to redefine the term, maybe making it worship of a lesser degree.
Quote
However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.
That point was taken care of with the Jesus references.  Blessed RATHER are those who hear and obey.  Mary is not due ANY praise for birthing Jesus.  Respect?  Sure.  Jesus respected His mother.  Praise, worship, adoration?  NO!  Not the kind you give her.  The same kind of praise we would give Moses or Abraham: "Wow, that's so cool that God chose someone like ___ to be used for His purposes."  Sure--put Mary's name in there.  But don't Catholics PRAY to Mary?  It's a very clear cut issue; these misnomers only serve to cloud it temporarily.
Quote from: The Rosary
HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!

V. Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
That's absurd.  There is no other way to put it.  If you look at scripture and you come out praying that sort of prayer, you've missed something and added something else.  We are to pray to GOD in our poor state!  Our sighs, mouring, and weeping should go to HIM ALONE.  Why are we crying to a SINFUL woman?!  She needed Christ's salvation JUST LIKE THE REST OF US!  NO ONE comes to the Father but through JESUS.  Advocate?!  Jesus Christ is our advocate, and He alone is such according to the scriptures!  Where in the Bible does it describe Mary as sweet, merciful, etc.?  It is pure fantasy!  As bad as the Acts of Paul or the other apocryphal texts.  Was she favored among women? Yes!  Very much so!  But to be WORSHIPED?  Prayed to in our times of affliction?  NO.

And how on earth does Mary, who needed Christ's blood sacrifice like the rest of us, somehow make us "worthy of the promises of Christ"?!  We are saved by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone.  That is CLEAR in the scriptures.  Sadly, as Jesus said, men love their traditions rather than verbum dei.  It is impossible for a sinner like Mary or anyone else to make us worthy of Christ!  God's grace ALONE grants us salvation through Christ.  We are made worthy of His promises by faith in Him ALONE.