LightHammer's Challenge

[Swiss_Guard]

Anybody noticing how you, Lighthammer are completely making up that Mary was sinless as God? It says that nowhere in the Bible. You are using human logic to come to that conclusion. The bible says ALL have sinned. ALL have gone astray, it doesn't say ALL except Mary.

Just as you are using human....well, I'm not sure what you're using, to come to the conclusion that when the Bible refers to Mary being Jesus' mother, it really means 'adoptive surrogate.'

[Loner]

Anybody noticing how you, Lighthammer are completely making up that Mary was sinless as God? It says that nowhere in the Bible. You are using human logic to come to that conclusion. The bible says ALL have sinned. ALL have gone astray, it doesn't say ALL except Mary.

Just as you are using human....well, I'm not sure what you're using, to come to the conclusion that when the Bible refers to Mary being Jesus' mother, it really means 'adoptive surrogate.'

It means that the Lord was born of Mary..she was NOT His biological mother. NOT her egg NOT any man's seed....do you get it???

[Josiah]

Anybody noticing how you, Lighthammer are completely making up that Mary was sinless as God? It says that nowhere in the Bible. You are using human logic to come to that conclusion. The bible says ALL have sinned. ALL have gone astray, it doesn't say ALL except Mary.

The verse doesn't say all except Jesus either. It doesn't say all except innocent children who die before being able to make any conscious decisions.

You're right.  Scripture does NOT say that Mary was a sinner.
It doesn't say that I am, either.
So, if Mary is sinless because Scripture doesn't say she was a sinner, does that make it a dogmatic fact that I'm also sinless?
Or is what Scripture says (and not say) irrelevant to you?




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[Catholica]

Anybody noticing how you, Lighthammer are completely making up that Mary was sinless as God? It says that nowhere in the Bible. You are using human logic to come to that conclusion. The bible says ALL have sinned. ALL have gone astray, it doesn't say ALL except Mary.

Just as you are using human....well, I'm not sure what you're using, to come to the conclusion that when the Bible refers to Mary being Jesus' mother, it really means 'adoptive surrogate.'

It means that the Lord was born of Mary..she was NOT His biological mother. NOT her egg NOT any man's seed....do you get it???

Matthew 1:20 Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord* appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her.

Luke 2:21 When eight days were completed for his circumcision,* he was named Jesus, the name given him by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

The creed on this very website, in the very rules:

Begotten, not made;

Jesus was not made in her, but conceived.  Mary was a biological mother.

[Swiss_Guard]

Anybody noticing how you, Lighthammer are completely making up that Mary was sinless as God? It says that nowhere in the Bible. You are using human logic to come to that conclusion. The bible says ALL have sinned. ALL have gone astray, it doesn't say ALL except Mary.

Just as you are using human....well, I'm not sure what you're using, to come to the conclusion that when the Bible refers to Mary being Jesus' mother, it really means 'adoptive surrogate.'

It means that the Lord was born of Mary..she was NOT His biological mother. NOT her egg NOT any man's seed....do you get it???

But the Bible says that Mary is Jesus' mother. It doesn't say adoptive mother. It doesn't say surrogate. It says that MARY...IS... JESUS'...MOTHER. I'm going to have to ask you to rev up both of your brain cells to fully comprehend this. :)

[LightHammer]

Anybody noticing how you, Lighthammer are completely making up that Mary was sinless as God? It says that nowhere in the Bible. You are using human logic to come to that conclusion. The bible says ALL have sinned. ALL have gone astray, it doesn't say ALL except Mary.

The verse doesn't say all except Jesus either. It doesn't say all except innocent children who die before being able to make any conscious decisions.

You're right.  Scripture does NOT say that Mary was a sinner.
It doesn't say that I am, either.
So, if Mary is sinless because Scripture doesn't say she was a sinner, does that make it a dogmatic fact that I'm also sinless?
Or is what Scripture says (and not say) irrelevant to you?




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I never said that. I said that it supports the dogma not that it proclaims it beyond a shadow of a doubt (although with Protestants anything that is clearly defined can be discarded and rationed away)

[LightHammer]

Anybody noticing how you, Lighthammer are completely making up that Mary was sinless as God? It says that nowhere in the Bible. You are using human logic to come to that conclusion. The bible says ALL have sinned. ALL have gone astray, it doesn't say ALL except Mary.

Just as you are using human....well, I'm not sure what you're using, to come to the conclusion that when the Bible refers to Mary being Jesus' mother, it really means 'adoptive surrogate.'

It means that the Lord was born of Mary..she was NOT His biological mother. NOT her egg NOT any man's seed....do you get it???

Matthew 1:20 Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord* appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her.

Luke 2:21 When eight days were completed for his circumcision,* he was named Jesus, the name given him by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

The creed on this very website, in the very rules:

Begotten, not made;

Jesus was not made in her, but conceived.  Mary was a biological mother.

Bump.

[Josiah]

You didn't provide ANYTHING.  From Scripture or elsewhere.  
Just a lot of claims.  And then some far-flung attempt to "connect" invisible dots of your own creation.   This has NOTHING to do with substantiating it "From Scripture alone."  

What you so powerfully, so boldly, so undeniably documented is that the DOGMA is entirely baseless (at least in terms of Scripture).   I could not possibly have stated this as clearly as you yourself have done.






.

I hate to bring this matter up yet again, but don't you have anything better to do than post scathing attacks against the Catholic Church?

you spend an unprecedented amount of your time crapping on it.

1.  Quote me where I "crap" on anything or anyone.

2.  Read this:  http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/anti-catholic-anti-protestant-%28especially-for-catholics-to-read%29/   Is the proverbial shoe actually on YOUR foot?

3.  How do personal flames reveal that Scripture alone substantiates the
Dogma of the Assumption of Mary?



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1. Well, the post on this thread where you compared us to the Mormons, for a start.

1.  Searching this thread.... searching, searching..... looking for where I said "crap."  
Searching.... searching..... Nope, can't find it.


2.  Um, looking for where I "compared" the RCC and LDS denomination (as if that would be a bad thing)..... searching..... searching.....  Nope, can't find it.


3.  Searching for where "Scripture alone" teaches the DOGMA of the Assumption of Mary.   Nope.  Nothing.



         

2.  I read that thread

Perhaps you are more "anti" me and my church than I am to you and yours.  If so, then the proverbial "shoe" is actually on your foot.   Let all read the thread.  It's rather stunningly obvious, I think.  

3. I'm not going to bother explaining this to you any further. Lighthammer explained to you in detail how the Assumption of Mary is supported in Scripture

No.  All that can read know what he did was make a claim and then attempt to "connect" a series of "dots" of his own creation.   He never even attempted to present any Scriptures that teach the Dogma of the Assumption of Mary.   I think that's both undeniable and obvious.  

Yes, it COULD be that in his mind, his own INTERPRETATION of some things fits his opinion.  It's fairly common (All Mormons known to me also think that their INTERPRETATION of things fits their opinion).  But the opinion of self agreeing with the opinion of self is unrelated to the issue of "Scripture alone" teaching something.  Apples and oranges.   I think we all suspect self to agree with self, that doesn 't mean that Scripture does.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I have better than 20/20 sight.  And I'm proficient at reading.  If our brother had verse(s) that reveal that Mary was assumed into heaven upon her death (or undeath) he would have quoted them and I would be able to both see and read them.   So would all.  







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[Catholica]

I think the problem some people have with believing that Mary was Jesus' biological mother stems from an incorrect belief that sin passes through physical matter.  They use the same argument to say that Mary was sinful with the claim that sin passed to her through fleshy matter, and so Jesus must not have been of Mary's fleshy matter because he was without sin.

I have also encountered the claim that sin is only passed through the father's seed, and since Jesus had no human father, he did not receive sin.

The truth of the matter is that neither of these inferences are found in scripture.  Worse they are not revealed by Jesus even in Tradition.  They are made up conjectures.  Completely made up to explain something that we cannot understand.

Nothing about Mary's completely natural birth proves that she was sinful, nor does it prove that she was free from sin.  It is the work of God and His grace that miraculously preserved her from original sin.  It was also that Jesus was divine that he could also not be subject to original sin.  Original sin is not like a DNA sequence, but an affliction, basically a curse from God as a result of the original sin.  It affects the soul, not the body itself.

Jesus was impeccable because he was God.  Mary was Immaculate because of the work of God.  Neither is due to or in spite of any biological relationship.  Sin and its stain is a spiritual thing, not a material thing.

[Swiss_Guard]

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

 And I'm proficient at reading.  





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[/quote] Well, the majority of your reply was simply the same highly opinionated nonsense you post on every thread. As far as that last bit...while it's very nice that you can read, I was refering to your mental blindness.

[Loner]

All of you RCC members have been clearly shown with scripture references that ALL have sinned..you all accept only RCC dogma and not scripture....God help you all...I'm done here..believe as you wish...I'm done here you ..satan has blinded you

[LightHammer]

All of you RCC members have been clearly shown with scripture references that ALL have sinned..you all accept only RCC dogma and not scripture....God help you all...I'm done here..believe as you wish...I'm done here you ..satan has blinded you

So Jesus has sinned?

Innocent babies have sinned?

Well after trying to float Mary as the surrogate of Christ, I don't I can be surprised by anything you guys believe.

[Swiss_Guard]

All of you RCC members have been clearly shown with scripture references that ALL have sinned..you all accept only RCC dogma and not scripture....God help you all...I'm done here..believe as you wish...I'm done here you ..satan has blinded you

And this is coming from a perdon who alledges that Mary was Jesus' 'surrogate'. What utter lunacy.

[Loner]

All of you RCC members have been clearly shown with scripture references that ALL have sinned..you all accept only RCC dogma and not scripture....God help you all...I'm done here..believe as you wish...I'm done here you ..satan has blinded you

And this is coming from a perdon who alledges that Mary was Jesus' 'surrogate'. What utter lunacy.

Exactly where did I post that Mary was a surrogate?? Get your facts straight!

[Josiah]

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IMO...


LightHammer documenting that Scripture doesn't say that Mary was sinless is not substantiation from "Scripture alone" that it is a dogmatic fact that Mary was directly assumed into heaven upon Her death (or undeath - he hasn't told us which).   His (apparent) attempt to "connect" invisible "dots" of his own imagination simply proclaims that Scripture doesn't substantiate this dogma.






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