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Offline DaveW

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #35 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 09:35:01 »
Why is this even an issue?  Do we not believe God?
Why is what even an issue?

The "millions of years ago" and "trained scientists vs trained theologians" thing.

Is there a real need to resolve what we have no first hand knowledge of?

How does resolving billions of years vs 6 days; or evolution vs individual creation make us better christians?
« Last Edit: Thu May 07, 2015 - 09:37:38 by DaveW »

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #35 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 09:35:01 »

Offline wincam

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #36 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 09:41:07 »
Oh, when folks like wincam share their ideas of which they are out of their league, I just remind myself that they'll eventually go away.  And then we can get back to science-based discussions.



wincam is not going to go away - he comes somewhat in the discipline of a Socrates asking seemingly stupid/ridiculous questions to cut the very ground from under the feet of some pseudo/phony scientists led astray and attempting to lead others astray also - wincam


Wincam, it is pretty obvious that you wouldn't know a pseudo/phony scientist from a real one.  I seriously doubt that you have had any significant education or knowledge in any field of science beyond high school and perhaps not even that.



that is the difference between the likes of you and I since I do not rely on my own ego/deductions/conclusions etc but as advised and would advise Catholics and others to consult the experts and specialists in all the disciplines of both theology and science and for Catholics these can and may be found together and united at www.kolbecenter.org and www.daylightorigins.com - some it seems would even dare to know more and better than the creator of both science and scientists - btw it has been truly said that knowledge is of two kinds knowing it or knowing where to find it - wincam


But the problem here is that I seriously doubt that you have the ability, skill set, or the educational background to determine what from those web sites might be true and what might not.  That is the problem with "the likes of you".



of course you are qualified in all the disciplines of science and theology to know that - it does not required rocket science  that seems to blind some scientists - wincam


Not all, but some.  I'll bet that is more than you can say.



 a little knowledge is a dangerous thing - wincam


How would you know?



go over to the websites and find out for yourself viz www.kolbecenter.org and www.daylightorigins.com - wincam

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #36 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 09:41:07 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #37 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 09:48:34 »
Why is this even an issue?  Do we not believe God?
Why is what even an issue?

The "millions of years ago" and "trained scientists vs trained theologians" thing.

Is there a real need to resolve what we have no first hand knowledge of?

How does resolving billions of years vs 6 days; or evolution vs individual creation make us better christians?

I know, personally, one person who "confessed" to me that one reason that he gave so little credence to the Bible was that if the Bible got it so wrong about what we can see, measure and comprehend, how could he believe the Bible when it speaks about those things that we can't see, can't measure and probably can't begin to comprehend.  I suspect there are many out there like him with the same feeling.

Offline wincam

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #38 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 09:58:25 »
Why is this even an issue?  Do we not believe God?
Why is what even an issue?

The "millions of years ago" and "trained scientists vs trained theologians" thing.

Is there a real need to resolve what we have no first hand knowledge of?

How does resolving billions of years vs 6 days; or evolution vs individual creation make us better christians?

I know, personally, one person who "confessed" to me that one reason that he gave so little credence to the Bible was that if the Bible got it so wrong about what we can see, measure and comprehend, how could he believe the Bible when it speaks about those things that we can't see, can't measure and probably can't begin to comprehend.  I suspect there are many out there like him with the same feeling.


a right bizarre twist to pseudo/phony evolution science with its millions and billions of years ago - about time they gave up and came home - wincam

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #38 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 09:58:25 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #39 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 10:03:44 »
Why is this even an issue?  Do we not believe God?
Why is what even an issue?

The "millions of years ago" and "trained scientists vs trained theologians" thing.

Is there a real need to resolve what we have no first hand knowledge of?

How does resolving billions of years vs 6 days; or evolution vs individual creation make us better christians?

I know, personally, one person who "confessed" to me that one reason that he gave so little credence to the Bible was that if the Bible got it so wrong about what we can see, measure and comprehend, how could he believe the Bible when it speaks about those things that we can't see, can't measure and probably can't begin to comprehend.  I suspect there are many out there like him with the same feeling.


a right bizarre twist to pseudo/phony evolution science with its millions and billions of years ago - about time they gave up and came home - wincam

wincam--- I think probably the only real pseudo/phony around here is you.

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #39 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 10:03:44 »



Online AVZ

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #40 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 10:08:03 »
Why is this even an issue?  Do we not believe God?
Why is what even an issue?

The "millions of years ago" and "trained scientists vs trained theologians" thing.

Is there a real need to resolve what we have no first hand knowledge of?

How does resolving billions of years vs 6 days; or evolution vs individual creation make us better christians?

I know, personally, one person who "confessed" to me that one reason that he gave so little credence to the Bible was that if the Bible got it so wrong about what we can see, measure and comprehend, how could he believe the Bible when it speaks about those things that we can't see, can't measure and probably can't begin to comprehend.  I suspect there are many out there like him with the same feeling.

Yep, I know them too.
They also have a problem with the flood, the plagues, Jonah's fish, man in a burning oven, resurrection and you know whatnot.
By the time you're done making these things measurable and comprehensible nothing is left.

Offline DaveW

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #41 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 10:09:56 »
Why is this even an issue?  Do we not believe God?
Why is what even an issue?

The "millions of years ago" and "trained scientists vs trained theologians" thing.

Is there a real need to resolve what we have no first hand knowledge of?

How does resolving billions of years vs 6 days; or evolution vs individual creation make us better christians?
I know, personally, one person who "confessed" to me that one reason that he gave so little credence to the Bible was that if the Bible got it so wrong about what we can see, measure and comprehend, how could he believe the Bible when it speaks about those things that we can't see, can't measure and probably can't begin to comprehend.  I suspect there are many out there like him with the same feeling.

He is not supposed to intellectually comprehend the bible.  God has to be supernaturally revealed.  As Paul said:

1 Corinthians 2.4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

Offline doorknocker

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #42 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 10:14:39 »
Why is this even an issue?  Do we not believe God?
Why is what even an issue?

The "millions of years ago" and "trained scientists vs trained theologians" thing.

Is there a real need to resolve what we have no first hand knowledge of?

How does resolving billions of years vs 6 days; or evolution vs individual creation make us better christians?
I know, personally, one person who "confessed" to me that one reason that he gave so little credence to the Bible was that if the Bible got it so wrong about what we can see, measure and comprehend, how could he believe the Bible when it speaks about those things that we can't see, can't measure and probably can't begin to comprehend.  I suspect there are many out there like him with the same feeling.

He is not supposed to intellectually comprehend the bible.  God has to be supernaturally revealed.  As Paul said:

1 Corinthians 2.4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.



Amen to that.

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #43 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 11:08:16 »
Why is this even an issue?  Do we not believe God?
Why is what even an issue?

The "millions of years ago" and "trained scientists vs trained theologians" thing.

Is there a real need to resolve what we have no first hand knowledge of?

How does resolving billions of years vs 6 days; or evolution vs individual creation make us better christians?
I know, personally, one person who "confessed" to me that one reason that he gave so little credence to the Bible was that if the Bible got it so wrong about what we can see, measure and comprehend, how could he believe the Bible when it speaks about those things that we can't see, can't measure and probably can't begin to comprehend.  I suspect there are many out there like him with the same feeling.

He is not supposed to intellectually comprehend the bible.

Of course he is.  If the Bible is not intellectually comprehensible, then all bets are off.  How can you even begin to access the accuracy of the OT prophecies if the Bible is not intellectually comprehensible?  How can you give the slightest credence to anything the Bible says if it is not intellectually comprehensible?  The simple answer  --  you can't.  Unless the Bible is intellectually comprehensible, it is nothing more that one or more persons fantasies.

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #44 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 11:13:49 »
Why is this even an issue?  Do we not believe God?
Why is what even an issue?

The "millions of years ago" and "trained scientists vs trained theologians" thing.

Is there a real need to resolve what we have no first hand knowledge of?

How does resolving billions of years vs 6 days; or evolution vs individual creation make us better christians?

I know, personally, one person who "confessed" to me that one reason that he gave so little credence to the Bible was that if the Bible got it so wrong about what we can see, measure and comprehend, how could he believe the Bible when it speaks about those things that we can't see, can't measure and probably can't begin to comprehend.  I suspect there are many out there like him with the same feeling.

Yep, I know them too.
They also have a problem with the flood, the plagues, Jonah's fish, man in a burning oven, resurrection and you know whatnot.
By the time you're done making these things measurable and comprehensible nothing is left.

The  flood, the plagues, Jonah's fish, man in a burning oven, resurrection are not measurable.  The age of the earth, however, is.  And that is the point.  If you are so wrong about the age of the earth which is measurable, why would you expect me to believe you when you speak about those other things which are not?

Offline doorknocker

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #45 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 11:33:17 »
Why is this even an issue?  Do we not believe God?
Why is what even an issue?

The "millions of years ago" and "trained scientists vs trained theologians" thing.

Is there a real need to resolve what we have no first hand knowledge of?

How does resolving billions of years vs 6 days; or evolution vs individual creation make us better christians?
I know, personally, one person who "confessed" to me that one reason that he gave so little credence to the Bible was that if the Bible got it so wrong about what we can see, measure and comprehend, how could he believe the Bible when it speaks about those things that we can't see, can't measure and probably can't begin to comprehend.  I suspect there are many out there like him with the same feeling.

He is not supposed to intellectually comprehend the bible.

Of course he is.  If the Bible is not intellectually comprehensible, then all bets are off.  How can you even begin to access the accuracy of the OT prophecies if the Bible is not intellectually comprehensible?  How can you give the slightest credence to anything the Bible says if it is not intellectually comprehensible?  The simple answer  --  you can't.  Unless the Bible is intellectually comprehensible, it is nothing more that one or more persons fantasies.


If your intellect could figure out the things of God, then why this prayer of Paul.

Ephesians 1,  16-20
I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that

the God of our Lord Jesus Christ,  the Father of Glory, may give you A SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND OF REVELATION

IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM, HAVING THE EYES OF YOUR HEART ENLIGHTENED, that you may know what is the

hope to which He called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance IN THE SAINTS, and what is the

immeasurable greatness OF HIS POWER IN US, who believe, according to the working of His great might which

He accomplished in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and made Him sit at His right hand in the heavenly

Places,.....



This letter was written to the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus.

If our intellect can understand scriptures,  why would these faithful saints need  A SPIRIT OF WISDOM

AND OF REVELATION IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM???

Offline DaveW

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #46 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 11:54:41 »
Of course he is.  If the Bible is not intellectually comprehensible, then all bets are off.  How can you even begin to access the accuracy of the OT prophecies if the Bible is not intellectually comprehensible?  How can you give the slightest credence to anything the Bible says if it is not intellectually comprehensible?  The simple answer  --  you can't.  Unless the Bible is intellectually comprehensible, it is nothing more that one or more persons fantasies.

That is thinking along ONLY natural lines.  But the bible (both testaments) is a supernatural book.  It must be accepted by faith. To eliminate the supernatural from the bible is to reduce it to a mere work of philosopy.

Online AVZ

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #47 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 12:02:28 »
The  flood, the plagues, Jonah's fish, man in a burning oven, resurrection are not measurable.  The age of the earth, however, is.  And that is the point.  If you are so wrong about the age of the earth which is measurable, why would you expect me to believe you when you speak about those other things which are not?

What you mean not measurable?

Flood = You take the surface of the earth and multiply by the height of the highest mountain. Then you calculate the total quantity of water available and see if its enough to flood the earth.
Science will tell you no.

Plagues = Yes some of them are not measurable, but take one. Take the chemical composition of water and then try to change it into blood.
Science will tell you no.

Jonah = Take the biggest fish in the world and put a man in its stomach. After three days check if the man is still alive.
Science will tell you no.

Oven = Make a fire, a big one. Throw in a man and see if he gets our unharmed.
Science will tell you no.

Resurrection = Take a dead person and keep him aside for three days. Then try to revive him.
Science will tell you no.


All these things can be observed and tested, they are repeatable and measurable.
For all of them there is no sensible, intellectual, comprehensible and scientific explanation.

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #48 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 13:03:27 »
Of course he is.  If the Bible is not intellectually comprehensible, then all bets are off.  How can you even begin to access the accuracy of the OT prophecies if the Bible is not intellectually comprehensible?  How can you give the slightest credence to anything the Bible says if it is not intellectually comprehensible?  The simple answer  --  you can't.  Unless the Bible is intellectually comprehensible, it is nothing more that one or more persons fantasies.

That is thinking along ONLY natural lines.  But the bible (both testaments) is a supernatural book.  It must be accepted by faith. To eliminate the supernatural from the bible is to reduce it to a mere work of philosopy.

That it is supernatural does not mean that it is intellectually incomprehensible.

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #49 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 13:10:57 »
The  flood, the plagues, Jonah's fish, man in a burning oven, resurrection are not measurable.  The age of the earth, however, is.  And that is the point.  If you are so wrong about the age of the earth which is measurable, why would you expect me to believe you when you speak about those other things which are not?

What you mean not measurable?

Flood = You take the surface of the earth and multiply by the height of the highest mountain. Then you calculate the total quantity of water available and see if its enough to flood the earth.
Science will tell you no.

Plagues = Yes some of them are not measurable, but take one. Take the chemical composition of water and then try to change it into blood.
Science will tell you no.

Jonah = Take the biggest fish in the world and put a man in its stomach. After three days check if the man is still alive.
Science will tell you no.

Oven = Make a fire, a big one. Throw in a man and see if he gets our unharmed.
Science will tell you no.

Resurrection = Take a dead person and keep him aside for three days. Then try to revive him.
Science will tell you no.


All these things can be observed and tested, they are repeatable and measurable.
For all of them there is no sensible, intellectual, comprehensible and scientific explanation.

With respect to the flood, I don't believe it was a world wide flood.  I strongly believe that Psalm 104 says otherwise.  But no matter.  All of those things are events, happenings, etc. which could not happen naturally.  There is nothing in or about science that does or can deny the supernatural.

Online AVZ

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #50 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 13:35:07 »
The  flood, the plagues, Jonah's fish, man in a burning oven, resurrection are not measurable.  The age of the earth, however, is.  And that is the point.  If you are so wrong about the age of the earth which is measurable, why would you expect me to believe you when you speak about those other things which are not?

What you mean not measurable?

Flood = You take the surface of the earth and multiply by the height of the highest mountain. Then you calculate the total quantity of water available and see if its enough to flood the earth.
Science will tell you no.

Plagues = Yes some of them are not measurable, but take one. Take the chemical composition of water and then try to change it into blood.
Science will tell you no.

Jonah = Take the biggest fish in the world and put a man in its stomach. After three days check if the man is still alive.
Science will tell you no.

Oven = Make a fire, a big one. Throw in a man and see if he gets our unharmed.
Science will tell you no.

Resurrection = Take a dead person and keep him aside for three days. Then try to revive him.
Science will tell you no.


All these things can be observed and tested, they are repeatable and measurable.
For all of them there is no sensible, intellectual, comprehensible and scientific explanation.

With respect to the flood, I don't believe it was a world wide flood.  I strongly believe that Psalm 104 says otherwise.  But no matter.  All of those things are events, happenings, etc. which could not happen naturally.  There is nothing in or about science that does or can deny the supernatural.

That doesn't cut the cake either.
If one is not willing or able to accept a supernatural event like creation of the universe in 6 days...then what would be the reason to believe any other supernatural event mentioned in the Bible?
Both scenario's defy logic, comprehension and science. I do not see the difference.

What you personally think of the flood is scientifically irrelevant because even a local flood that buries mountains is a mere impossibility.

As DaveW rightfully said, all must be accepted by faith.

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #51 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 13:53:55 »
The  flood, the plagues, Jonah's fish, man in a burning oven, resurrection are not measurable.  The age of the earth, however, is.  And that is the point.  If you are so wrong about the age of the earth which is measurable, why would you expect me to believe you when you speak about those other things which are not?

What you mean not measurable?

Flood = You take the surface of the earth and multiply by the height of the highest mountain. Then you calculate the total quantity of water available and see if its enough to flood the earth.
Science will tell you no.

Plagues = Yes some of them are not measurable, but take one. Take the chemical composition of water and then try to change it into blood.
Science will tell you no.

Jonah = Take the biggest fish in the world and put a man in its stomach. After three days check if the man is still alive.
Science will tell you no.

Oven = Make a fire, a big one. Throw in a man and see if he gets our unharmed.
Science will tell you no.

Resurrection = Take a dead person and keep him aside for three days. Then try to revive him.
Science will tell you no.


All these things can be observed and tested, they are repeatable and measurable.
For all of them there is no sensible, intellectual, comprehensible and scientific explanation.

With respect to the flood, I don't believe it was a world wide flood.  I strongly believe that Psalm 104 says otherwise.  But no matter.  All of those things are events, happenings, etc. which could not happen naturally.  There is nothing in or about science that does or can deny the supernatural.

That doesn't cut the cake either.
If one is not willing or able to accept a supernatural event like creation of the universe in 6 days...then what would be the reason to believe any other supernatural event mentioned in the Bible?
Both scenario's defy logic, comprehension and science. I do not see the difference.

What you personally think of the flood is scientifically irrelevant because even a local flood that buries mountains is a mere impossibility.

As DaveW rightfully said, all must be accepted by faith.

I accept God's creation of the universe.  I reject your interpretation of the meaning of the Hebrew word "yom" as it is used in the Genesis account of the creation.  The reason that I reject it is that by the science that was also created by God, we can make measurements with show that it didn't happen in six 24-hour days as we now measure days.

Again with respect to the flood I think the Bible says otherwise.  Psalm 104 is a Psalm about creation.  It describes the events noted in Genesis 1 concerning the separation of the land and the seas which originally covered the earth.  It then says,

Psa 104:5  You placed the earth on its foundations. It can never be moved.
Psa 104:6  You covered it with the oceans like a blanket. The waters covered the mountains.
Psa 104:7  But you commanded the waters, and they ran away. At the sound of your thunder they rushed off.
Psa 104:8  They flowed down the mountains. They went into the valleys. They went to the place you appointed for them.
Psa 104:9  You drew a line they can't cross. They will never cover the earth again.



Offline wincam

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #52 on: Sat May 09, 2015 - 17:43:25 »
what you science did not tell you or teach you, you should have reasoned or found out for yourself is that if you only half fill a bottle with water and tilt the top of the bottle and slosh the water about some of the water will reach the top and even flow over if you forget to cap the bottle - the earth God originally created good must have been pretty flat/smooth/even/level with no obstructions or barriers or deep hidden gorges and cliffs and precipices and canyons - the high mountains were once formed   from the seabed as it was thrust upward and the sea downwards due to extra water pressure as it even tilted by sloshing water under pressure etc- if all the mountains now existing were levelled out smooth and the sea beds pushed up the world would even now be globally flooded by water which would find its own level etc - wincam 

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #53 on: Sat May 09, 2015 - 17:53:11 »
 ::help::
« Last Edit: Sat May 09, 2015 - 18:18:19 by 4WD »

Offline skeeter

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #54 on: Sat May 09, 2015 - 18:43:33 »

Online AVZ

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #55 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 05:04:47 »
I accept God's creation of the universe.  I reject your interpretation of the meaning of the Hebrew word "yom" as it is used in the Genesis account of the creation.  The reason that I reject it is that by the science that was also created by God, we can make measurements with show that it didn't happen in six 24-hour days as we now measure days.

Again with respect to the flood I think the Bible says otherwise.  Psalm 104 is a Psalm about creation.  It describes the events noted in Genesis 1 concerning the separation of the land and the seas which originally covered the earth.  It then says,

Psa 104:5  You placed the earth on its foundations. It can never be moved.
Psa 104:6  You covered it with the oceans like a blanket. The waters covered the mountains.
Psa 104:7  But you commanded the waters, and they ran away. At the sound of your thunder they rushed off.
Psa 104:8  They flowed down the mountains. They went into the valleys. They went to the place you appointed for them.
Psa 104:9  You drew a line they can't cross. They will never cover the earth again.


Hi 4WD,

Wanted to reply a few days earlier but topic slipped my mind. Fortunately it was revived.

I don't think you can take scientific measurements as proof that the world is as old as science tells us it is.
We have to keep the option open that when God created the universe, it was created with the look and feel of a creation that was "mature".

Take for example Adam.
Adam was created as an adult. So if you would have measured Adam's age after 1 hour of his creation, you would have measured a human being of lets say 30 years old, or even older.
Eve too was created as an adult. God also created trees and animals, all full grown or in adulthood.
If you would have measured the age of these trees and animals, you would have made wrong conclusions.

So what makes you think God did not create a "mature" universe?
When God created the laws of nature, He immediately created the effects of these laws of nature.
For example: God did not only create planets with many light years distance between them, He also created the traveling light between them.
This would give an appearance of an old universe, but the reality is that it is young.

The fact that you reject the notion of "yum" meaning 1 day is vested in the fact that you measure something which is very old.
In the scenario I opt above however a 6 day creation is perfectly acceptable.
Factually my scenario is not unthinkable because God did create human beings and animals that looked much older than they were.
So why exclude this option from the rest of the universe?


As for your localization of the flood, although the verse in Psalms appears to place a boundary to the geographical location of the flood.
However you could also interpret the boundary as the moment God stopped the water from flooding.
The Bible states that that boundary was at 40 days. After 40 days and nights of flood, God stopped the flood.

The bigger problem I see with your notion that the flood was not worldwide however is that it defies various statements in Genesis.
It also defies logic.


A)
If you take the account as stated in Genesis you see that on multiple locations the word "all" and "every" is used.
For example Gen 6:17
"And I, behold, I do bring the flood of waters upon this earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is in the earth shall die..."

Firstly we see that God does not make a limitation to the amount of life breathing flesh which will be destroyed.
Secondly the statement claims that "all flesh from under heaven" will die. Now how big is heaven? It spans all around the globe.

The immensity of the flood is demonstrated in Genesis 7:11
" In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

Again you see a cataclysmic event taking place, ALL fountains and ALL of heaven poored water out on creation.

B)
To take the flood as a localized event also begs the logic of the accounts.

Why would God want Noah to build an ark? If the flood was to be local, why not ask Noah to move to another location on earth?
Why build an ark? If the flood was local then animals in other parts of the world would not die. Surely they would re-occupy the flooded area at some point?
If the flood was local, why could the raven and the dove not find themselves dry land?
Why did it take 1 year for the flood to dry up? Surely a smaller patch of land would have dried up much earlier.
And if the ark was floating around for 1 year in a localized area, would it not have hit dry land much earlier?

C)
I consider this one of the most important arguments against a local flood.
In the NT a few times the flood is compared with the return of Christ.
Well, we know that the event of Christs return will be a global event. So why the comparison if Noah's flood was only local?
Surely Jesus is not claiming that when He returns it will be only applicable to a small area of the world, or it will only be noticed by a select group of people?


No, there is no doubt in my mind that the flood was a global event.
To state that the flood was a local event raises grammatical, logical and theological questions that cannot be answered.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #56 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 07:27:28 »
OK I have not studied this closely for I really did not think it mattered so I took it by faith that six days were six days but that being said I really agree with AVZ reasoning on this it sounds logical as presented.

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #57 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 07:47:41 »
I accept God's creation of the universe.  I reject your interpretation of the meaning of the Hebrew word "yom" as it is used in the Genesis account of the creation.  The reason that I reject it is that by the science that was also created by God, we can make measurements with show that it didn't happen in six 24-hour days as we now measure days.

Again with respect to the flood I think the Bible says otherwise.  Psalm 104 is a Psalm about creation.  It describes the events noted in Genesis 1 concerning the separation of the land and the seas which originally covered the earth.  It then says,

Psa 104:5  You placed the earth on its foundations. It can never be moved.
Psa 104:6  You covered it with the oceans like a blanket. The waters covered the mountains.
Psa 104:7  But you commanded the waters, and they ran away. At the sound of your thunder they rushed off.
Psa 104:8  They flowed down the mountains. They went into the valleys. They went to the place you appointed for them.
Psa 104:9  You drew a line they can't cross. They will never cover the earth again.


Hi 4WD,

Wanted to reply a few days earlier but topic slipped my mind. Fortunately it was revived.

I don't think you can take scientific measurements as proof that the world is as old as science tells us it is.
We have to keep the option open that when God created the universe, it was created with the look and feel of a creation that was "mature".

My question here is why?  Why would God, for whom time is of no real concern at all, make something appear old. What is a mere 13+ billion years to God.  Why would God create the unreal illusion of age?  How is that not terribly deceptive?  When Psalm 19 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork,"  you think that it really doesn't.  You think the heavens only seem to declare the glory of God and the sky can't be depended upon to actually proclaim His handiwork.  You believe the laws of science which God created can't be depended on at all to give us a correct picture of his universe.  And all because you want to interpret the Hebrew word "yom" as meaning a 24-hour day.  Here is what Strong's says about "yom"

H3117
יום
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.


I have read all the reasons why some insist that in the Genesis account of creation that Hebrew word must mean a 24-hour day.  I don't buy it.  It doesn't even mean that in Genesis 1:5 where it says "He called the light day".  That would only be about 12 hours.  It doesn't mean a 24-hour day in Genesis 2:4 where it obviously means the entire period of time of the creation as given in chapter one.  The of course there is the seventh day.  That is the day that God rested from all his work of creation (Gen 2:3).  But we know that He is still resting from His creative work.  We are still in that seventh day of God's rest from creating.  He will until such time that He will create a new heaven and a new earth. 

Take for example Adam.
Adam was created as an adult. So if you would have measured Adam's age after 1 hour of his creation, you would have measured a human being of lets say 30 years old, or even older.
Eve too was created as an adult. God also created trees and animals, all full grown or in adulthood.
If you would have measured the age of these trees and animals, you would have made wrong conclusions.

The Bible doesn't say any of that.  That is but your interpretation based solely upon your own interpretation of how creation proceeded.  Even more to the point, it doesn't say that God created the trees or any of the plant life; it says,  Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good (Gen 1:11-12).  Here again, you interpret that as meaning "create".  But it doesn't.

And the Bible doesn't say that God created the animals;  again it says, "Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so. God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good" 9Gen 1:24-25).  Here one more time you insert your interpretation of that meaning "create".  It doesn't.

You have merely insisted that the phrase "let there be ...." must mean create.  It doesn't and there is no need whatever to insist that it does.  I understand that you wish to interpret the entire Genesis account of creation in a literal fashion.  That is up to you.  I have no need to do that. I am perfectly happy to think that God created the universe in the way that His heavens declare.

As for your localization of the flood, although the verse in Psalms appears to place a boundary to the geographical location of the flood.

No, I believe that Psalm 109 speaks about creation, not about the flood.  As to your interpretation of Genesis 6:17, here again, you insist upon a particular translation/interpretation of the Hebrew which agrees with your own view.  You demand the Hebrew word "erets" must mean earth as we now understand it. I don't believe it does.  Here is Strong's on that:

H776

ארץ

'erets

eh'-rets

From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): -  X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.


So AVZ, if you wish to insist upon a literal interpretation of all of this, you are free to do so.  For myself, I will let God's creation speak for itself and interpret it accordingly which I believe is in complete harmony with a perfectly acceptable interpretation of the Genesis account as well.  Unfortunately you can not do that.

Finally I would caution you against using a literal interpretation of cosmology as it is presented in the Bible.  You will find yourself in the same place as the Catholic church when they condemned both Galileo Galilei and Giordano Bruno for going against the Church's interpretation of Scripture.  Giving a literal interpretation to the Bible's description of cosmology will get you a flat motionless earth with the sun moving across the sky and some other really strange things.  But I will leave that for another time.
« Last Edit: Sun May 10, 2015 - 07:55:32 by 4WD »

Offline doorknocker

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #58 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 08:06:09 »
I accept God's creation of the universe.  I reject your interpretation of the meaning of the Hebrew word "yom" as it is used in the Genesis account of the creation.  The reason that I reject it is that by the science that was also created by God, we can make measurements with show that it didn't happen in six 24-hour days as we now measure days.

Again with respect to the flood I think the Bible says otherwise.  Psalm 104 is a Psalm about creation.  It describes the events noted in Genesis 1 concerning the separation of the land and the seas which originally covered the earth.  It then says,

Psa 104:5  You placed the earth on its foundations. It can never be moved.
Psa 104:6  You covered it with the oceans like a blanket. The waters covered the mountains.
Psa 104:7  But you commanded the waters, and they ran away. At the sound of your thunder they rushed off.
Psa 104:8  They flowed down the mountains. They went into the valleys. They went to the place you appointed for them.
Psa 104:9  You drew a line they can't cross. They will never cover the earth again.


Hi 4WD,

Wanted to reply a few days earlier but topic slipped my mind. Fortunately it was revived.

I don't think you can take scientific measurements as proof that the world is as old as science tells us it is.
We have to keep the option open that when God created the universe, it was created with the look and feel of a creation that was "mature".

My question here is why?  Why would God, for whom time is of no real concern at all, make something appear old. What is a mere 13+ billion years to God.  Why would God create the unreal illusion of age?  How is that not terribly deceptive?  When Psalm 19 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork,"  you think that it really doesn't.  You think the heavens only seem to declare the glory of God and the sky can't be depended upon to actually proclaim His handiwork.  You believe the laws of science which God created can't be depended on at all to give us a correct picture of his universe.  And all because you want to interpret the Hebrew word "yom" as meaning a 24-hour day.  Here is what Strong's says about "yom"

H3117
יום
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.


I have read all the reasons why some insist that in the Genesis account of creation that Hebrew word must mean a 24-hour day.  I don't buy it.  It doesn't even mean that in Genesis 1:5 where it says "He called the light day".  That would only be about 12 hours.  It doesn't mean a 24-hour day in Genesis 2:4 where it obviously means the entire period of time of the creation as given in chapter one.  The of course there is the seventh day.  That is the day that God rested from all his work of creation (Gen 2:3).  But we know that He is still resting from His creative work.  We are still in that seventh day of God's rest from creating.  He will until such time that He will create a new heaven and a new earth. 

Take for example Adam.
Adam was created as an adult. So if you would have measured Adam's age after 1 hour of his creation, you would have measured a human being of lets say 30 years old, or even older.
Eve too was created as an adult. God also created trees and animals, all full grown or in adulthood.
If you would have measured the age of these trees and animals, you would have made wrong conclusions.

The Bible doesn't say any of that.  That is but your interpretation based solely upon your own interpretation of how creation proceeded.  Even more to the point, it doesn't say that God created the trees or any of the plant life; it says,  Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good (Gen 1:11-12).  Here again, you interpret that as meaning "create".  But it doesn't.

And the Bible doesn't say that God created the animals;  again it says, "Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so. God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good" 9Gen 1:24-25).  Here one more time you insert your interpretation of that meaning "create".  It doesn't.

You have merely insisted that the phrase "let there be ...." must mean create.  It doesn't and there is no need whatever to insist that it does.  I understand that you wish to interpret the entire Genesis account of creation in a literal fashion.  That is up to you.  I have no need to do that. I am perfectly happy to think that God created the universe in the way that His heavens declare.

As for your localization of the flood, although the verse in Psalms appears to place a boundary to the geographical location of the flood.

No, I believe that Psalm 109 speaks about creation, not about the flood.  As to your interpretation of Genesis 6:17, here again, you insist upon a particular translation/interpretation of the Hebrew which agrees with your own view.  You demand the Hebrew word "erets" must mean earth as we now understand it. I don't believe it does.  Here is Strong's on that:

H776

ארץ

'erets

eh'-rets

From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): -  X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.


So AVZ, if you wish to insist upon a literal interpretation of all of this, you are free to do so.  For myself, I will let God's creation speak for itself and interpret it accordingly which I believe is in complete harmony with a perfectly acceptable interpretation of the Genesis account as well.  Unfortunately you can not do that.

Finally I would caution you against using a literal interpretation of cosmology as it is presented in the Bible.  You will find yourself in the same place as the Catholic church when they condemned both Galileo Galilei and Giordano Bruno for going against the Church's interpretation of Scripture.  Giving a literal interpretation to the Bible's description of cosmology will get you a flat motionless earth with the sun moving across the sky and some other really strange things.  But I will leave that for another time.


Is there a difference between created them  or  made them?

Offline yogi bear

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #59 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 08:11:08 »
Okay as I said I did not put much study into this topic and here is another great reasoning from 4WD so I am totally needing to study this but really did not think it mattered and does not have enough scripture to nail it down but will only be one mans reasoning over the other. Will have to look into this more so in the mean time it is best to keep my thoughts to self until I have more facts to base this from.

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #60 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 09:05:22 »
I accept God's creation of the universe.  I reject your interpretation of the meaning of the Hebrew word "yom" as it is used in the Genesis account of the creation.  The reason that I reject it is that by the science that was also created by God, we can make measurements with show that it didn't happen in six 24-hour days as we now measure days.

Again with respect to the flood I think the Bible says otherwise.  Psalm 104 is a Psalm about creation.  It describes the events noted in Genesis 1 concerning the separation of the land and the seas which originally covered the earth.  It then says,

Psa 104:5  You placed the earth on its foundations. It can never be moved.
Psa 104:6  You covered it with the oceans like a blanket. The waters covered the mountains.
Psa 104:7  But you commanded the waters, and they ran away. At the sound of your thunder they rushed off.
Psa 104:8  They flowed down the mountains. They went into the valleys. They went to the place you appointed for them.
Psa 104:9  You drew a line they can't cross. They will never cover the earth again.


Hi 4WD,

Wanted to reply a few days earlier but topic slipped my mind. Fortunately it was revived.

I don't think you can take scientific measurements as proof that the world is as old as science tells us it is.
We have to keep the option open that when God created the universe, it was created with the look and feel of a creation that was "mature".

My question here is why?  Why would God, for whom time is of no real concern at all, make something appear old. What is a mere 13+ billion years to God.  Why would God create the unreal illusion of age?  How is that not terribly deceptive?  When Psalm 19 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork,"  you think that it really doesn't.  You think the heavens only seem to declare the glory of God and the sky can't be depended upon to actually proclaim His handiwork.  You believe the laws of science which God created can't be depended on at all to give us a correct picture of his universe.  And all because you want to interpret the Hebrew word "yom" as meaning a 24-hour day.  Here is what Strong's says about "yom"

H3117
יום
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.


I have read all the reasons why some insist that in the Genesis account of creation that Hebrew word must mean a 24-hour day.  I don't buy it.  It doesn't even mean that in Genesis 1:5 where it says "He called the light day".  That would only be about 12 hours.  It doesn't mean a 24-hour day in Genesis 2:4 where it obviously means the entire period of time of the creation as given in chapter one.  The of course there is the seventh day.  That is the day that God rested from all his work of creation (Gen 2:3).  But we know that He is still resting from His creative work.  We are still in that seventh day of God's rest from creating.  He will until such time that He will create a new heaven and a new earth. 

Take for example Adam.
Adam was created as an adult. So if you would have measured Adam's age after 1 hour of his creation, you would have measured a human being of lets say 30 years old, or even older.
Eve too was created as an adult. God also created trees and animals, all full grown or in adulthood.
If you would have measured the age of these trees and animals, you would have made wrong conclusions.

The Bible doesn't say any of that.  That is but your interpretation based solely upon your own interpretation of how creation proceeded.  Even more to the point, it doesn't say that God created the trees or any of the plant life; it says,  Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good (Gen 1:11-12).  Here again, you interpret that as meaning "create".  But it doesn't.

And the Bible doesn't say that God created the animals;  again it says, "Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so. God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good" 9Gen 1:24-25).  Here one more time you insert your interpretation of that meaning "create".  It doesn't.

You have merely insisted that the phrase "let there be ...." must mean create.  It doesn't and there is no need whatever to insist that it does.  I understand that you wish to interpret the entire Genesis account of creation in a literal fashion.  That is up to you.  I have no need to do that. I am perfectly happy to think that God created the universe in the way that His heavens declare.

As for your localization of the flood, although the verse in Psalms appears to place a boundary to the geographical location of the flood.

No, I believe that Psalm 109 speaks about creation, not about the flood.  As to your interpretation of Genesis 6:17, here again, you insist upon a particular translation/interpretation of the Hebrew which agrees with your own view.  You demand the Hebrew word "erets" must mean earth as we now understand it. I don't believe it does.  Here is Strong's on that:

H776

ארץ

'erets

eh'-rets

From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): -  X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.


So AVZ, if you wish to insist upon a literal interpretation of all of this, you are free to do so.  For myself, I will let God's creation speak for itself and interpret it accordingly which I believe is in complete harmony with a perfectly acceptable interpretation of the Genesis account as well.  Unfortunately you can not do that.

Finally I would caution you against using a literal interpretation of cosmology as it is presented in the Bible.  You will find yourself in the same place as the Catholic church when they condemned both Galileo Galilei and Giordano Bruno for going against the Church's interpretation of Scripture.  Giving a literal interpretation to the Bible's description of cosmology will get you a flat motionless earth with the sun moving across the sky and some other really strange things.  But I will leave that for another time.


Is there a difference between created them  or  made them?

Yes of course.  The Hebrew word "bara" when used in speaking about God is almost always ex nihilo.  The word made typically implies making something from or out of existing material. I find it interesting that there are only three times in Genesis one where the word "create" is used.  One is for the "heavens and earth".  Some Hebrew scholars think that the phrase heavens and earth is actually a figure of speech, namely a merism in which a totality is expressed by contrasting parts (e.g. high and low, young and old).  So then creating the heavens and earth is a figure of speech meaning that God created everything that is all the stuff that there is in the universe.  That to me is a nice biblical description of the big bang.  But perhaps that is just me. For what it is worth we read in several places that God "stretches out the heavens"  --  a nice biblical description of the past and present expansion of the universe.  Again perhaps that is just me.

The second time create appears is in conjunction with the animal life in the sea.  I find that interesting as well.  The third time is in the creation of man.  Here I think that has to do with the spirit of man. 

So then I think that what God created and what is described in Genesis one was (1) all the stuff which exists in the universe, (2) life and (3) the spirit of man.  Everything else  came about though the natural processes that God established.

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #61 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 09:10:15 »
Why is this even an issue?  Do we not believe God?
Why is what even an issue?

The "millions of years ago" and "trained scientists vs trained theologians" thing.

Is there a real need to resolve what we have no first hand knowledge of?

How does resolving billions of years vs 6 days; or evolution vs individual creation make us better christians?
I know, personally, one person who "confessed" to me that one reason that he gave so little credence to the Bible was that if the Bible got it so wrong about what we can see, measure and comprehend, how could he believe the Bible when it speaks about those things that we can't see, can't measure and probably can't begin to comprehend.  I suspect there are many out there like him with the same feeling.

He is not supposed to intellectually comprehend the bible.

Of course he is.  If the Bible is not intellectually comprehensible, then all bets are off.  How can you even begin to access the accuracy of the OT prophecies if the Bible is not intellectually comprehensible?  How can you give the slightest credence to anything the Bible says if it is not intellectually comprehensible?  The simple answer  --  you can't.  Unless the Bible is intellectually comprehensible, it is nothing more that one or more persons fantasies.


If your intellect could figure out the things of God, then why this prayer of Paul.

Ephesians 1,  16-20
I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that

the God of our Lord Jesus Christ,  the Father of Glory, may give you A SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND OF REVELATION

IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM, HAVING THE EYES OF YOUR HEART ENLIGHTENED, that you may know what is the

hope to which He called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance IN THE SAINTS, and what is the

immeasurable greatness OF HIS POWER IN US, who believe, according to the working of His great might which

He accomplished in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and made Him sit at His right hand in the heavenly

Places,.....



This letter was written to the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus.

If our intellect can understand scriptures,  why would these faithful saints need  A SPIRIT OF WISDOM

AND OF REVELATION IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM???


What do you think a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him is but an intellectual comprehension?  Is wisdom and knowledge not a feature of the intellect?

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #62 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 09:37:41 »
I accept God's creation of the universe.  I reject your interpretation of the meaning of the Hebrew word "yom" as it is used in the Genesis account of the creation.  The reason that I reject it is that by the science that was also created by God, we can make measurements with show that it didn't happen in six 24-hour days as we now measure days.

Again with respect to the flood I think the Bible says otherwise.  Psalm 104 is a Psalm about creation.  It describes the events noted in Genesis 1 concerning the separation of the land and the seas which originally covered the earth.  It then says,

Psa 104:5  You placed the earth on its foundations. It can never be moved.
Psa 104:6  You covered it with the oceans like a blanket. The waters covered the mountains.
Psa 104:7  But you commanded the waters, and they ran away. At the sound of your thunder they rushed off.
Psa 104:8  They flowed down the mountains. They went into the valleys. They went to the place you appointed for them.
Psa 104:9  You drew a line they can't cross. They will never cover the earth again.


Hi 4WD,

Wanted to reply a few days earlier but topic slipped my mind. Fortunately it was revived.

I don't think you can take scientific measurements as proof that the world is as old as science tells us it is.
We have to keep the option open that when God created the universe, it was created with the look and feel of a creation that was "mature".

My question here is why?  Why would God, for whom time is of no real concern at all, make something appear old. What is a mere 13+ billion years to God.  Why would God create the unreal illusion of age?  How is that not terribly deceptive?  When Psalm 19 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork,"  you think that it really doesn't.  You think the heavens only seem to declare the glory of God and the sky can't be depended upon to actually proclaim His handiwork.  You believe the laws of science which God created can't be depended on at all to give us a correct picture of his universe.  And all because you want to interpret the Hebrew word "yom" as meaning a 24-hour day.  Here is what Strong's says about "yom"

H3117
יום
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.


I have read all the reasons why some insist that in the Genesis account of creation that Hebrew word must mean a 24-hour day.  I don't buy it.  It doesn't even mean that in Genesis 1:5 where it says "He called the light day".  That would only be about 12 hours.  It doesn't mean a 24-hour day in Genesis 2:4 where it obviously means the entire period of time of the creation as given in chapter one.  The of course there is the seventh day.  That is the day that God rested from all his work of creation (Gen 2:3).  But we know that He is still resting from His creative work.  We are still in that seventh day of God's rest from creating.  He will until such time that He will create a new heaven and a new earth. 

4WD,

I have cut the rest of this post to keep the pasts short.

Yes I am well aware that "yom" has multiple meanings and it can refer to a longer time than 1 day.
However I am not introducing something new here. God has presented Himself many times in the Bible as an immediate Creator.

When Jesus healed people, how long did it take?
The accounts in the Bible where Jesus is presented to us as the Creator also mention that Jesus spoke and it immediately happened.
The Bible also shows us a Creator who's dominion is beyond time and space, whose 1 day is as 1000 years and 1000 years as 1 day.

You ask the question why would God make a universe that appears so old?
I do not know, but I can guess though...
The universe is a balanced environment where for example earth has to be on a very particular distance from the sun to sustain life.
So if God took it upon Him to create mankind on the 6th day, than He also had the task to create the rest of the universe within 5 days to make an environment that sustained life in all it's facets.

Then if God created that balanced environment in a blink of an eye, to us humans it would appear as old.
Well, that's then the byproduct of God wanting to create everything in a week.
And is there anything wrong with such a notion? Of course not.

If you believe that God stood at the beginning of our universe, and you take God to be sovereign and omnipotent then you have no alternative but to include the possibility that God indeed created everything around us in literally 6 days and we are indeed looking at a universe that appears to be older than it is.

You ask why God would do such a thing because it is confusing?
Well, you could also ask the question why God would give a 10 commandments alluding to a literal 6 day creation. Would that than not be confusing?
Why would Genesis state "and it was evening and it was morning...the next day"? Is that not clearly alluding to a 24 hour period? Does that confuse you too?

Overall I would say that in its totality the Bible is far more leaning towards the understanding of a literal 6 days creation.
Nowhere, except in your alternate interpretation of the term "yom" does the Bible indicate that creation lasted longer than a 6 x 24 hour period.


Finally, with regards to your information on "erets".
Thanks for posting Strong's explanation. As you can see this is what is says: "From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): -  X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world."

See I have a problem building doctrine on something that is probably true, for the simple reason that it could probably be wrong as well.
I know that I take the Bible as infallibly true. Strong's however not so.
So given the circumstance where Jesus rested on the 7th day instead of the 13 billionth day, the fact that He created in a blink of an eye.
Jesus Himself stated "But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’" clearly placing Adam and Eve right at the start and not billions of years later.

In Exodus 20 Moses wrote: "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day."
There is no confusion the 6 days here are literal days.
Jesus said: "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
Should we then now say Moses got it wrong?

No, in all scripture we see a Creator at work who speaks and thing happen immediately and in full.
Jesus spoke and even the winds obeyed...immediately.
This is right in line with Psalm 33: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast"

When God said: "Let there be light" ...it was there. Right at that moment.
And there was evening and there was morning, one day

Online AVZ

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #63 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 09:50:12 »
4WD,

PS: I too used to be an ID-er.
I thought I could take modern science and introduce it into scriptural interpretation.
My goodness, I heard hundreds of different potential explanations including the "yoms" and the "erets" and the "localization of the flood"...and all these theories got flaws, sometimes even bigger than what it set off to dispute.
On top of that...once one thing was disputed there was no limit to what could be disputed in scripture.
In the end I decided to take scripture at face value, and guess what, I have never been more happy and it's the best explanation so far.

Why? Because I realize that most scientists are not interested in an explanation that proves the existence of God...they are looking for exactly the opposite.
And the scientists that do believe? Well...most of them have no problem believing in a 6 day creation. They say that science got it wrong.

You know what? They may be right.
What if science got it wrong? That's an option too.

Offline doorknocker

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #64 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 10:44:46 »
Colossians 1,  15-17

He is the image of the invisible God,  the first-born of all creation;

for in Him all things were CREATED, in heaven and on EARTH, visible

and invisible,  whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities,

ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM.

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.




With men this is impossible,  but with God all things are possible.

Offline doorknocker

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #65 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 11:02:46 »
Why is this even an issue?  Do we not believe God?
Why is what even an issue?

The "millions of years ago" and "trained scientists vs trained theologians" thing.

Is there a real need to resolve what we have no first hand knowledge of?

How does resolving billions of years vs 6 days; or evolution vs individual creation make us better christians?
I know, personally, one person who "confessed" to me that one reason that he gave so little credence to the Bible was that if the Bible got it so wrong about what we can see, measure and comprehend, how could he believe the Bible when it speaks about those things that we can't see, can't measure and probably can't begin to comprehend.  I suspect there are many out there like him with the same feeling.

He is not supposed to intellectually comprehend the bible.

Of course he is.  If the Bible is not intellectually comprehensible, then all bets are off.  How can you even begin to access the accuracy of the OT prophecies if the Bible is not intellectually comprehensible?  How can you give the slightest credence to anything the Bible says if it is not intellectually comprehensible?  The simple answer  --  you can't.  Unless the Bible is intellectually comprehensible, it is nothing more that one or more persons fantasies.


If your intellect could figure out the things of God, then why this prayer of Paul.

Ephesians 1,  16-20
I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that

the God of our Lord Jesus Christ,  the Father of Glory, may give you A SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND OF REVELATION

IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM, HAVING THE EYES OF YOUR HEART ENLIGHTENED, that you may know what is the

hope to which He called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance IN THE SAINTS, and what is the

immeasurable greatness OF HIS POWER IN US, who believe, according to the working of His great might which

He accomplished in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and made Him sit at His right hand in the heavenly

Places,.....



This letter was written to the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus.

If our intellect can understand scriptures,  why would these faithful saints need  A SPIRIT OF WISDOM

AND OF REVELATION IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM???


What do you think a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him is but an intellectual comprehension?  Is wisdom and knowledge not a feature of the intellect?


Isaiah 11,  2-3

And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding,  the

Spirit of Counsel and Might,  the Spirit of Knowledge and the Fear of the Lord.

And his delight shall be in the Fear of the Lord.



Do I believe that the Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation come from our intellect?

Definitely not.   

Does our human wisdom and human understanding comes from our intellect? Yes

God gives the Spirit of Wisdom and of Revelation in the knowledge of Him.


Matthew 11,  25-27

At that time Jesus declared, " I thank Thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou hast hidden these things

from the wise and understanding and REVEALED them to babes; yea, Father, for such was Thy gracious will. All

things have been delivered to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows

the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.


Even to know Him , He has to reveal Himself to us.
« Last Edit: Sun May 10, 2015 - 11:15:31 by doorknocker »

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #66 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 12:40:58 »
Why? Because I realize that most scientists are not interested in an explanation that proves the existence of God...they are looking for exactly the opposite.

That is so much horse pocky.  Too many have no thoughts one way or the other about God.  They certainly do not engage in scientific studies, investigations and research to find an explanation the proves the non existence of God.

And the scientists that do believe? Well...most of them have no problem believing in a 6 day creation. They say that science got it wrong.

More horse pocky.  In fact there are more Christians who believe in an old earth creation than those who hold to a young earth creation.  There are actually very few Christians or Scientists that do believe who hold to a literal 6 day creation.

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #67 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 12:44:22 »
Colossians 1,  15-17

He is the image of the invisible God,  the first-born of all creation;

for in Him all things were CREATED, in heaven and on EARTH, visible

and invisible,  whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities,

ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM.

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.




With men this is impossible,  but with God all things are possible.

Yes I am well aware of Colossians 1:15-17.  Nothing I have said is in conflict with it.  So what is your point?

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #68 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 12:45:51 »
Even to know Him , He has to reveal Himself to us.

Yes He has done that.  Do you have a Bible?

Offline 4WD

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Re: millions of years ago !
« Reply #69 on: Sun May 10, 2015 - 12:53:31 »
You ask the question why would God make a universe that appears so old?
I do not know, but I can guess though...

I can guess too.  I can guess He didn't make a universe that just appears old.  I can guess that He made it just like all the available evidence and physical data says that He did.  I really see no reason to think that He did it otherwise.  And I see no conflict with that and what He has said in the Bible.

 

     
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