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Christian Interests => Organized Religion and Religious Movements Discussions => Catholic Forum => Topic started by: wincam on Sat Sep 12, 2015 - 15:21:07

Title: Mother and Son ?
Post by: wincam on Sat Sep 12, 2015 - 15:21:07
is it not strange that whilst it is stated in the bible she knew not man some insist she did as it was the most natural and normal thing to do so and yet it seems for her son it was natural or normal to know not woman - wincam 
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Sat Sep 12, 2015 - 16:03:37
She was a married lady for whom having sex with her God given husband was right and good. She would have been disobedient if she hadnt had sex.  Jesus was not married and was never supposed to marry.
Next....... 
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: wincam on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 04:41:48
She was a married lady for whom having sex with her God given husband was right and good. She would have been disobedient if she hadnt had sex.  Jesus was not married and was never supposed to marry.
Next.......


adding error to error and confusion to confusion does not make it right unless of course exceptions are accepted as proving the rule

The commandment was to increase and multiply[Gen.1:28 and 8:17 and 35:11]

See what Christ says about Eunuchs[Matt.19:12]

come home now - wincam
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 04:48:16
She was a married lady for whom having sex with her God given husband was right and good. She would have been disobedient if she hadnt had sex.  Jesus was not married and was never supposed to marry.
Next.......


adding error to error and confusion to confusion does not make it right unless of course exceptions are accepted as proving the rule

The commandment was to increase and multiply[Gen.1:28 and 8:17 and 35:11]

See what Christ says about Eunuchs[Matt.19:12]

come home now - wincam

There are instruction in the OT about having sex with your spouse. Dave has mentioned this several times. She as a good and godly lady would have had sex with her husband and the Bible confirms that. I have no idea why RC's try and make out she didnt, after all sex in marriage is good and right and godly, and she was a normal human being like the rest of us.   
Eunochs have nothing to do with Mary at all. 
MY home is with God in heaven and I will go there when I die.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: Falan on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 05:42:01
Didn't Jesus have brothers and sisters? I thought Mary went on to have other sons and daughters after Jesus?
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: wincam on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 05:49:36
She was a married lady for whom having sex with her God given husband was right and good. She would have been disobedient if she hadnt had sex.  Jesus was not married and was never supposed to marry.
Next.......


adding error to error and confusion to confusion does not make it right unless of course exceptions are accepted as proving the rule

The commandment was to increase and multiply[Gen.1:28 and 8:17 and 35:11]

See what Christ says about Eunuchs[Matt.19:12]

come home now - wincam

There are instruction in the OT about having sex with your spouse. Dave has mentioned this several times. She as a good and godly lady would have had sex with her husband and the Bible confirms that. I have no idea why RC's try and make out she didnt, after all sex in marriage is good and right and godly, and she was a normal human being like the rest of us.   
Eunochs have nothing to do with Mary at all. 
MY home is with God in heaven and I will go there when I die.

it seems for some strange reason many do not accept and will not accept that God does not or will not accept that holy graves/tombs or wombs may be freely desecreated as normal and natural - btw sex does not always and everywhere directly connect or compute with womb - wincam 
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: Alan on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 05:58:00
Didn't Jesus have brothers and sisters? I thought Mary went on to have other sons and daughters after Jesus?


She did, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas but the RCC has manipulated scripture to state that these were cousins of Jesus to carry out their belief of the ongoing virginity of Mary, whom they worship  ::frown::
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: wincam on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 05:58:55
Didn't Jesus have brothers and sisters? I thought Mary went on to have other sons and daughters after Jesus?


do you mean "blessed is the womb that bore Thee and Tom, Dick, and Harry" - no brothers and sisters only cousins or else why as next of kin did they not claim His body for burial or rehouse their mother - wincam
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: wincam on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 06:21:59
btw even if Mary was not directly a eunuch more than likely Joseph was or at least senile - btw sex whilst being natural or normal would not be so under certain circumstances and would and could in fact be not normal and even blasphemous - wincam
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: Falan on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 07:55:29
I didn't realise Mary having children was disputed or open to interpretation, I just read somewhere she went on to have a family and assumed it was accurate. I never heard the 'cousins' thing.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 08:09:22
btw even if Mary was not directly a eunuch more than likely Joseph was or at least senile - btw sex whilst being natural or normal would not be so under certain circumstances and would and could in fact be not normal and even blasphemous - wincam
 

OH so you now claim that Joseph was senile? Really??? Where did the Bible say that? He didnt seem senile to me. Mary a eunoch??? What total unbiblical nonsense , where do you get all this stuff from??Sex in marriage is never blasphemous, come on now. 
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 08:11:37
I didn't realise Mary having children was disputed or open to interpretation, I just read somewhere she went on to have a family and assumed it was accurate. I never heard the 'cousins' thing.
 

Its not disputed except by the RC's who have to believe its not true because it then means that Mary must have actually had sex(shock horror) with her God given husband even though the Bible already says she did.  ::shrug::
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 08:13:17
Didn't Jesus have brothers and sisters? I thought Mary went on to have other sons and daughters after Jesus?


She did, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas but the RCC has manipulated scripture to state that these were cousins of Jesus to carry out their belief of the ongoing virginity of Mary, whom they worship  ::frown::
   

 ::nodding::
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 08:14:27
Didn't Jesus have brothers and sisters? I thought Mary went on to have other sons and daughters after Jesus?
 


She did and she had sex with her husband.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 08:19:50
Matthew 1v25
New International Version
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

New Living Translation
But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

English Standard Version
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
But he did not know her until she had brought forth a Son, and he called His name Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

King James Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: LexKnight on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 08:25:00
Let me just ask this: Why wouldn't she? She was a virgin while having the Christ, yes, but after... she's married. Why wouldn't she get it on with her husband? There's been no command to her not to. I know the Catholics want to make her a perpetual virgin to honor her, but from what I understand back then you had great honor if you bore many children, it was a showing of how blessed you were.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: Catholica on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 09:05:51
Let me just ask this: Why wouldn't she? She was a virgin while having the Christ, yes, but after... she's married. Why wouldn't she get it on with her husband? There's been no command to her not to. I know the Catholics want to make her a perpetual virgin to honor her, but from what I understand back then you had great honor if you bore many children, it was a showing of how blessed you were.

Because she made a vow to God to remain a virgin. You can tell by the way this "betrothed" woman questioned Gabriel: "How can this be, for I know not man?"

This is not a literary device to convey that Mary was a virgin.  These were actually words spoken by a real-life woman.  A woman who clearly knew that babies come from "knowing" men.  A normal betrothed Jewish woman, when told what the angel said, would not have asked such a question. She would have assumed that the birth would happen in the normal way, and so she would not have asked it.  But Mary was different: she had a vow before God to remain abstinent despite being married and her question stems from whether the angel is telling her that she must renege on that vow.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: LexKnight on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 09:25:45
Quote
And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

That's the closest I can find concerning vow, and it's not what you say... Where are you guys getting that she made a vow of perpetual virginity?
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: MeMyself on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 09:46:57
Quote
And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

That's the closest I can find concerning vow, and it's not what you say... Where are you guys getting that she made a vow of perpetual virginity?

She didn't and God didn't ask her to. 
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: Catholica on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 10:17:40
Quote
And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

That's the closest I can find concerning vow, and it's not what you say... Where are you guys getting that she made a vow of perpetual virginity?

The vow itself is not written in scripture, but the only way the interaction between Mary and the Angel would have happened is if Mary didn't intend to ever have relations with Joseph. 

Then said Mary unto the angel, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"  ~ Luke 1:34
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 10:37:41
Let me just ask this: Why wouldn't she? She was a virgin while having the Christ, yes, but after... she's married. Why wouldn't she get it on with her husband? There's been no command to her not to. I know the Catholics want to make her a perpetual virgin to honor her, but from what I understand back then you had great honor if you bore many children, it was a showing of how blessed you were.

Because she made a vow to God to remain a virgin. You can tell by the way this "betrothed" woman questioned Gabriel: "How can this be, for I know not man?"

This is not a literary device to convey that Mary was a virgin.  These were actually words spoken by a real-life woman.  A woman who clearly knew that babies come from "knowing" men.  A normal betrothed Jewish woman, when told what the angel said, would not have asked such a question. She would have assumed that the birth would happen in the normal way, and so she would not have asked it.  But Mary was different: she had a vow before God to remain abstinent despite being married and her question stems from whether the angel is telling her that she must renege on that vow.

SHe was a virgin because she wasnt married at that time. She made no vow or celibacy she was speaking truthfully that she was a virgin.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 10:39:41
Quote
And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

That's the closest I can find concerning vow, and it's not what you say... Where are you guys getting that she made a vow of perpetual virginity?

The vow itself is not written in scripture, but the only way the interaction between Mary and the Angel would have happened is if Mary didn't intend to ever have relations with Joseph. 

Then said Mary unto the angel, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"  ~ Luke 1:34
 


What?  ::eek:: ::frown:: ::pondering:: ::headscratch:: She was asking how she could have a baby because she hadnt had sex. A normal question for any virgin who was told she was going to have a baby.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 10:41:12
Quote
And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

That's the closest I can find concerning vow, and it's not what you say... Where are you guys getting that she made a vow of perpetual virginity?
 

They desperately try and find verses that they think support their unbiblical beliefs, but they dont of course because they arent there.  ::shrug::
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: MeMyself on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 11:06:53
Quote
And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

That's the closest I can find concerning vow, and it's not what you say... Where are you guys getting that she made a vow of perpetual virginity?

The vow itself is not written in scripture, but the only way the interaction between Mary and the Angel would have happened is if Mary didn't intend to ever have relations with Joseph.

How do you figure?   

Quote
Then said Mary unto the angel, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"  ~ Luke 1:34

She was saying, "how can I have a baby when I've not had sex yet?"  It is not a pledge to be sexually abstinent for life.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: LexKnight on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 11:23:36
Quote
And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

That's the closest I can find concerning vow, and it's not what you say... Where are you guys getting that she made a vow of perpetual virginity?

The vow itself is not written in scripture, but the only way the interaction between Mary and the Angel would have happened is if Mary didn't intend to ever have relations with Joseph. 

Then said Mary unto the angel, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"  ~ Luke 1:34

Catholica, don't tell me that is the source of the Roman Church making Mary into a perpetual virgin... Gabriel told Mary she would have a kid, and she was confused because she never laid with a man before. It was simply a bewilderment, like winning the lottery even though you never played it. Gabriel then answered it would be by the Power of God and the Holy Spirit upon her, and she accepted it. That's not a vow...

Quote
When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Joseph got it on with his wife, it's foolish to think otherwise. If your Church has that as one of their foundations, then that shows how far away from Truth the structure of the Catholic Church is. Would Mary have been in sin for laying with her husband after the birth of the Lord? Surely not.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: wincam on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 12:32:11
so we see that in the main those who pick and choose what to accept and what to reject do so only because of prior indoctrination and hardness of heart and rejection of the word of God as proclaimed by the Archangel on His behalf as "full of grace and highly blessed" so "all will call me blessed" except Protestants, the silence is deafening when even the Archangel and God called her blessed - this same mindset cannot see or realise or accept that sex is not natural or normal under some circumstances and/or that sex and the womb are not one and the same for "blessed is the womb that bore thee" even a non Christian cried out and He gently replied "blessed are they that hear this as the word of God and keep it - wincam
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: LexKnight on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 12:42:28
2 things wincam.

1. Did you just say sex isn't natural?

2. When they informed the Lord His mother and brothers were there to see Him, He told them His mother and brothers were His disciples, those who hear the word of God and do it. Surely she was blessed, but it seems you guys are raising her higher than even the Lord did. It's borderline idolatry, if not idolatry. Not even she would want that, she'd be disgusted by it actually...
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: wincam on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 13:02:10
the fault here seems to be  careful reading and interpretation of both my post and scriptures - I did
not say sex is not natural or normal.[full stop].

2.Catholics cannot raise her higher than Jesus did by choosing her to be His mother - wincam
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 13:31:55
the fault here seems to be  careful reading and interpretation of both my post and scriptures - I did
not say sex is not natural or normal.[full stop].

2.Catholics cannot raise her higher than Jesus did by choosing her to be His mother - wincam
 

God chose her to carry Jesus and give birth to her. Jesus never venerated her above the fact that she was his earthy mother. IN fact when told his mother and brothers were at the door, he simply said 'who is my mother, who are my brothers, anyone  who believes in me is my mother and my brothers and sisters'. 
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 13:33:44
so we see that in the main those who pick and choose what to accept and what to reject do so only because of prior indoctrination and hardness of heart and rejection of the word of God as proclaimed by the Archangel on His behalf as "full of grace and highly blessed" so "all will call me blessed" except Protestants, the silence is deafening when even the Archangel and God called her blessed - this same mindset cannot see or realise or accept that sex is not natural or normal under some circumstances and/or that sex and the womb are not one and the same for "blessed is the womb that bore thee" even a non Christian cried out and He gently replied "blessed are they that hear this as the word of God and keep it - wincam


Within godly marriage sex is always godly and natural.  The ONLY time we are told that its ok to not have sex, is for an agreed time of fasting and prayer. 
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 13:40:44
matthew 1 v 25

But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

New Living Translation
But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

English Standard Version
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.


But he did not know her until she had brought forth a Son, and he called His name Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: wincam on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 17:19:20
Quote
And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

That's the closest I can find concerning vow, and it's not what you say... Where are you guys getting that she made a vow of perpetual virginity?


because it is not in the Bible it does not follow that it is not so - I read somewhere that in the Talmud it states Mary was a temple virgin - wincam
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: Rella on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 18:33:23
I only read page one of this so if this is quoted elsewhere I did not see it.

Mathew 1:25 NKJV says it.

25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son.[a] And he called His name Jesus.

Did not know her till.... meaning did not have sex with her until Jesus was born.

First born.... they would not have said first born unless there was a second or more son born to Mary.  THEY WOULD HAVE SAID THEY BROUGHT FORTH HER SON AND CALLED HIS NAME....

Catholic online Bible states it like this.

Matt 1:25

25 he had not had intercourse with her when she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

This only says he (Joseph) did not have sex with her until after Jesus was born.

It says a son.... not the only son.

Catholic ESV Bible says it this way...

Matt 1:25

25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Again Joseph did not know her until after she gave birth

To "A" son... allowing more sons likely could and would  have been born.

AND from the UNITED STATES COLLEGE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS


Matt 1:25

25 He had no relations with her until she bore a son, * and he named him Jesus.

* [1:25] Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth, nor does it exclude it.

Mary was not a virgin after Jesus was born. Even the Catholic bibles agree. And the Bishops do not discount this.

So having other sons was extremely likely.

Why they continue to call her a virgin likely has been distorted over the centuries. Probably they
called her the virgin Mary to tell the story that she was a virgin when she conceived and
as all stories get passed down they exaggerated to say she always was....

No wonder why the Catholic clergy does not promote study of the bible as they prefer to
not have to come up with explanations of discrepancies of what they teach and what is written.



Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: LexKnight on Sun Sep 13, 2015 - 19:34:39
Wincam, let me put it this way... again...

His mother and brothers came to him while he was teaching, and they told Him "your mother and brothers are here." And His response was "Who is my mother? And who are my brothers?" He raised his hands towards his disciples and said "Behold, my mother and brothers, for those who do the will of God is my brother and sister and mother."

You say "Catholics cannot raise her higher than Jesus did by choosing her to be His mother." You even put your own name behind it, so I can definitely quote you on it. But dude, listen to the Lord's words in Matthew 12, Mark 3, and Luke 8 (in case you wanna look it up yourself), He considered His own disciples to being His mother... as well as his brother and sister. Point is when it came to choose either his biological mother or his disciples as his primary family, He chose His disciples. Doesn't that blow Catholic theology concerning Mary out the water, then?

Yes, yes it does. I am being a bit snippy here but you cannot argue against the Lord's clear words here, no matter what a Catholic Bishop proclaimed in the name of the Lord.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: wincam on Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 07:41:06
Wincam, let me put it this way... again...

His mother and brothers came to him while he was teaching, and they told Him "your mother and brothers are here." And His response was "Who is my mother? And who are my brothers?" He raised his hands towards his disciples and said "Behold, my mother and brothers, for those who do the will of God is my brother and sister and mother."

You say "Catholics cannot raise her higher than Jesus did by choosing her to be His mother." You even put your own name behind it, so I can definitely quote you on it. But dude, listen to the Lord's words in Matthew 12, Mark 3, and Luke 8 (in case you wanna look it up yourself), He considered His own disciples to being His mother... as well as his brother and sister. Point is when it came to choose either his biological mother or his disciples as his primary family, He chose His disciples. Doesn't that blow Catholic theology concerning Mary out the water, then?

Yes, yes it does. I am being a bit snippy here but you cannot argue against the Lord's clear words here, no matter what a Catholic Bishop proclaimed in the name of the Lord.


of course the confusion for many it seems arises because the physical and spiritual are being mixed - obviously  and, therefore, imho  interpreted out of context - obviously the disciples are not His mother and brothers except in the spiritual realm - if taken in the same context as "none greater than John but the least in the kingdom is greater than he [Matt.11:11] - wincam     
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: Catholica on Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 07:43:29
Quote
And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

That's the closest I can find concerning vow, and it's not what you say... Where are you guys getting that she made a vow of perpetual virginity?

The vow itself is not written in scripture, but the only way the interaction between Mary and the Angel would have happened is if Mary didn't intend to ever have relations with Joseph. 

Then said Mary unto the angel, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"  ~ Luke 1:34

Catholica, don't tell me that is the source of the Roman Church making Mary into a perpetual virgin... Gabriel told Mary she would have a kid, and she was confused because she never laid with a man before. It was simply a bewilderment, like winning the lottery even though you never played it. Gabriel then answered it would be by the Power of God and the Holy Spirit upon her, and she accepted it. That's not a vow...

1. This verse isn't the source of the Catholic Church's teaching about Mary's perpetual virginity.  In all likelihood, the fact that the Catholic Church took care of Mary throughout her public life, and knew her personally... that likely is the source.  However the verse I noted is support for that fact.

2. The angel didn't say that she was already pregnant.  The angel told her that she "Will" conceive.  That means, future.  In normal human understanding, that would indicate to someone that the conception would take place in the normal way, and in the future.  Mary's response indicates that she didn't intend to ever take part in the "normal way" of conceiving.  And that is the support here for her perpetual virginity.

3. I didn't claim that this scripture is the vow, and I even wrote that it is not the evidence for her vow.  It is just evidence that she didn't intend to "know" Joseph.  The "vow" is simply the explanation of why that was the case.

If you just read the scripture for the words it says and try to remove those preconceived notions of what was happening, I hope that this exposition will become clear.

Quote
When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

The angel of the Lord didn't command Joseph not to have relations with Mary until she gave birth.   And I believe that this is even MORE evidence that the couple had entered into an abstinent caretaker-type marriage.  Because that period between conception and birth is one where the husband and wife often have relations.

Furthermore, the use of the word "until" doesn't assure that a future action actually took place.  There are many cases in scripture where it does not.  Including sayings like "until the day of his death" and "until his enemies are placed beneath his feet".  The word is oft use to show a continuous state that exists during a certain period of time.  And so scripture's use of the word "until" here doesn't disprove that Mary remained a virgin.  Rather, the purpose of this scripture is to show that the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 is fulfilled perfectly, that a virgin will conceive AND bear a son.

Quote
Would Mary have been in sin for laying with her husband after the birth of the Lord? Surely not.

Not in a normal marriage.  But if she violated a vow that she made to the Lord, or Joseph demanded that she violate a vow, then yes there would have been sin involved in that act.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: wincam on Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 10:40:41
sex is by no means natural or normal in a Church and especially on a high altar specially sanctified to the Lord "blessed is the womb that bore Him" - just you tell her son that that was not so - wincam
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: MeMyself on Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 10:46:44
sex is by no means natural or normal in a Church and especially on a high altar specially sanctified to the Lord "blessed is the womb that bore Him" - just you tell her son that that was not so - wincam

Sex is natural and normal in a MARRIAGE though.  She was married, she was a wife in every regard.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: LexKnight on Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 10:57:51
Catholica, you said her response to Gabriel indicated she never intended to know Joseph. No it doesn't... I posted that passage and quoted it, "Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." All it indicates is she accepted the duty given to her by God to bear His Son. I don't know what you're reading but it can't be that if that's what you got out of it.

If I continue it would simply be pointless arguing, as you're clearly set in your ways. But I do want to say that your reasoning just doesn't work. Until literally means "to this set point of time", and it would work well even with the 2 examples you've given. And concerning the vow you brought you, you offered no evidence that she made anything like that. You're basically saying you assume she made a vow because that would match with Roman Catholic theology, so her having sex would be sin by breaking that assumed vow. Your whole argument is on assumptions and shaky ground... Sigh, but you're set in your mind on it, so I won't continue with you on this past this point (this is more for those who read this). If you want the final word, go ahead.

Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 11:48:11
sex is by no means natural or normal in a Church and especially on a high altar specially sanctified to the Lord "blessed is the womb that bore Him" - just you tell her son that that was not so - wincam
 

So this verse is a lie?

matthew 1 v 25

But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

New Living Translation
But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

English Standard Version
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.


But he did not know her until she had brought forth a Son, and he called His name Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: k-pappy on Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 12:35:36
This is a catholic belief and this thread belongs in the catholic section.  I am going to move it there.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: wincam on Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 12:58:27
anyone any idea what a temple virgin was and what this involved - wincam
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: chosenone on Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 13:20:18
anyone any idea what a temple virgin was and what this involved - wincam


Do you believe what God says in the Bible or not?

matthew 1v 25

 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: skeeter on Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 16:38:35

1. This verse isn't the source of the Catholic Church's teaching about Mary's perpetual virginity.  In all likelihood, the fact that the Catholic Church took care of Mary throughout her public life, and knew her personally... that likely is the source.  However the verse I noted is support for that fact.

2. The angel didn't say that she was already pregnant.  The angel told her that she "Will" conceive.  That means, future.  In normal human understanding, that would indicate to someone that the conception would take place in the normal way, and in the future.  Mary's response indicates that she didn't intend to ever take part in the "normal way" of conceiving.  And that is the support here for her perpetual virginity.

3. I didn't claim that this scripture is the vow, and I even wrote that it is not the evidence for her vow.  It is just evidence that she didn't intend to "know" Joseph.  The "vow" is simply the explanation of why that was the case.

If you just read the scripture for the words it says and try to remove those preconceived notions of what was happening, I hope that this exposition will become clear.
a good  belly laugh from the comment in red above...  Mary was taken care of by her family and friends.  More likely the majority of the time, she was taking care of them...  there was no RCC then.

this 'vow' lie is made up in the minds of some RCC lonely old men secluded from society in a monastery who wanted a goddess to fantasize about.

how many 'normal' women have an angel appear to them to tell them they will conceive?  Especially when their 'marriage' has not yet been completed?  Her response was normal to a female (any I've talked to anyway).  Taking a guy's word on it is like believing a guy who says 'if you love me, you'll let me...'

Some people need to get their minds off of Mary's sex life and focus their thinking on Christ.


Quote
The angel of the Lord didn't command Joseph not to have relations with Mary until she gave birth.   And I believe that this is even MORE evidence that the couple had entered into an abstinent caretaker-type marriage.  Because that period between conception and birth is one where the husband and wife often have relations.

Furthermore, the use of the word "until" doesn't assure that a future action actually took place.

There are many cases in scripture where it does not.  Including sayings like "until the day of his death" and "until his enemies are placed beneath his feet".


The word is oft use to show a continuous state that exists during a certain period of time.

And so scripture's use of the word [/u]"until" here doesn't disprove that Mary remained a virgin.  Rather, the purpose of this scripture is to show that the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 is fulfilled perfectly, that a virgin will conceive AND bear a son.

knew her not                      until                 she had given birth


what  men   twist  this   to mean  shows  God's   infinite   wisdom  is  making   the  female   the   one   to    give   birth.

Quote
When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

 "until the day of his death'   -  a change would be made on the day of his death...


"until his enemies are placed beneath his feet"   -  a change would take place when His enemies were placed beneath His feet...


"but knew her not until she had given birth to a son"  -  a change would take place once Mary gave birth to her Son.   What change would that be?

Would it be a change if he continued  not to 'know'  her?
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: skeeter on Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 21:40:09
sex is by no means natural or normal in a Church and especially on a high altar specially sanctified to the Lord "blessed is the womb that bore Him" - just you tell her son that that was not so - wincam
did I miss a post? who is talking about sex in a Church on an altar?
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: skeeter on Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 22:23:49
Would Mary have been in sin for laying with her husband after the birth of the Lord? Surely not.
Not in a normal marriage.  But if she violated a vow that she made to the Lord, or Joseph demanded that she violate a vow, then yes there would have been sin involved in that act.
this 'supposed' vow is made up by Catholics taken from some unbiblical writing to support their pv teaching.
Title: Re: Mother and Son ?
Post by: wincam on Tue Sep 15, 2015 - 05:25:39
via google try 'Temple Virgins'  - any comments - wincam