Author Topic: Mother and Son ?  (Read 1029 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6263
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #35 on: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 07:43:29 »
Quote
And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

That's the closest I can find concerning vow, and it's not what you say... Where are you guys getting that she made a vow of perpetual virginity?

The vow itself is not written in scripture, but the only way the interaction between Mary and the Angel would have happened is if Mary didn't intend to ever have relations with Joseph. 

Then said Mary unto the angel, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"  ~ Luke 1:34

Catholica, don't tell me that is the source of the Roman Church making Mary into a perpetual virgin... Gabriel told Mary she would have a kid, and she was confused because she never laid with a man before. It was simply a bewilderment, like winning the lottery even though you never played it. Gabriel then answered it would be by the Power of God and the Holy Spirit upon her, and she accepted it. That's not a vow...

1. This verse isn't the source of the Catholic Church's teaching about Mary's perpetual virginity.  In all likelihood, the fact that the Catholic Church took care of Mary throughout her public life, and knew her personally... that likely is the source.  However the verse I noted is support for that fact.

2. The angel didn't say that she was already pregnant.  The angel told her that she "Will" conceive.  That means, future.  In normal human understanding, that would indicate to someone that the conception would take place in the normal way, and in the future.  Mary's response indicates that she didn't intend to ever take part in the "normal way" of conceiving.  And that is the support here for her perpetual virginity.

3. I didn't claim that this scripture is the vow, and I even wrote that it is not the evidence for her vow.  It is just evidence that she didn't intend to "know" Joseph.  The "vow" is simply the explanation of why that was the case.

If you just read the scripture for the words it says and try to remove those preconceived notions of what was happening, I hope that this exposition will become clear.

Quote
When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

The angel of the Lord didn't command Joseph not to have relations with Mary until she gave birth.   And I believe that this is even MORE evidence that the couple had entered into an abstinent caretaker-type marriage.  Because that period between conception and birth is one where the husband and wife often have relations.

Furthermore, the use of the word "until" doesn't assure that a future action actually took place.  There are many cases in scripture where it does not.  Including sayings like "until the day of his death" and "until his enemies are placed beneath his feet".  The word is oft use to show a continuous state that exists during a certain period of time.  And so scripture's use of the word "until" here doesn't disprove that Mary remained a virgin.  Rather, the purpose of this scripture is to show that the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 is fulfilled perfectly, that a virgin will conceive AND bear a son.

Quote
Would Mary have been in sin for laying with her husband after the birth of the Lord? Surely not.

Not in a normal marriage.  But if she violated a vow that she made to the Lord, or Joseph demanded that she violate a vow, then yes there would have been sin involved in that act.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 07:48:50 by Catholica »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #35 on: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 07:43:29 »

Offline wincam

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #36 on: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 10:40:41 »
sex is by no means natural or normal in a Church and especially on a high altar specially sanctified to the Lord "blessed is the womb that bore Him" - just you tell her son that that was not so - wincam

Offline MeMyself

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15980
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Female
Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #37 on: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 10:46:44 »
sex is by no means natural or normal in a Church and especially on a high altar specially sanctified to the Lord "blessed is the womb that bore Him" - just you tell her son that that was not so - wincam

Sex is natural and normal in a MARRIAGE though.  She was married, she was a wife in every regard.

LexKnight

  • Guest
Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #38 on: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 10:57:51 »
Catholica, you said her response to Gabriel indicated she never intended to know Joseph. No it doesn't... I posted that passage and quoted it, "Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." All it indicates is she accepted the duty given to her by God to bear His Son. I don't know what you're reading but it can't be that if that's what you got out of it.

If I continue it would simply be pointless arguing, as you're clearly set in your ways. But I do want to say that your reasoning just doesn't work. Until literally means "to this set point of time", and it would work well even with the 2 examples you've given. And concerning the vow you brought you, you offered no evidence that she made anything like that. You're basically saying you assume she made a vow because that would match with Roman Catholic theology, so her having sex would be sin by breaking that assumed vow. Your whole argument is on assumptions and shaky ground... Sigh, but you're set in your mind on it, so I won't continue with you on this past this point (this is more for those who read this). If you want the final word, go ahead.


Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30923
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #39 on: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 11:48:11 »
sex is by no means natural or normal in a Church and especially on a high altar specially sanctified to the Lord "blessed is the womb that bore Him" - just you tell her son that that was not so - wincam
 

So this verse is a lie?

matthew 1 v 25

But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

New Living Translation
But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

English Standard Version
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.


But he did not know her until she had brought forth a Son, and he called His name Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #39 on: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 11:48:11 »



k-pappy

  • Guest
Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #40 on: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 12:35:36 »
This is a catholic belief and this thread belongs in the catholic section.  I am going to move it there.

Offline wincam

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #41 on: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 12:58:27 »
anyone any idea what a temple virgin was and what this involved - wincam

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30923
  • Manna: 538
  • Gender: Female
Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #42 on: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 13:20:18 »
anyone any idea what a temple virgin was and what this involved - wincam


Do you believe what God says in the Bible or not?

matthew 1v 25

 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

Offline skeeter

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1651
  • Manna: 17
  • Gender: Female
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #43 on: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 16:38:35 »

1. This verse isn't the source of the Catholic Church's teaching about Mary's perpetual virginity.  In all likelihood, the fact that the Catholic Church took care of Mary throughout her public life, and knew her personally... that likely is the source.  However the verse I noted is support for that fact.

2. The angel didn't say that she was already pregnant.  The angel told her that she "Will" conceive.  That means, future.  In normal human understanding, that would indicate to someone that the conception would take place in the normal way, and in the future.  Mary's response indicates that she didn't intend to ever take part in the "normal way" of conceiving.  And that is the support here for her perpetual virginity.

3. I didn't claim that this scripture is the vow, and I even wrote that it is not the evidence for her vow.  It is just evidence that she didn't intend to "know" Joseph.  The "vow" is simply the explanation of why that was the case.

If you just read the scripture for the words it says and try to remove those preconceived notions of what was happening, I hope that this exposition will become clear.
a good  belly laugh from the comment in red above...  Mary was taken care of by her family and friends.  More likely the majority of the time, she was taking care of them...  there was no RCC then.

this 'vow' lie is made up in the minds of some RCC lonely old men secluded from society in a monastery who wanted a goddess to fantasize about.

how many 'normal' women have an angel appear to them to tell them they will conceive?  Especially when their 'marriage' has not yet been completed?  Her response was normal to a female (any I've talked to anyway).  Taking a guy's word on it is like believing a guy who says 'if you love me, you'll let me...'

Some people need to get their minds off of Mary's sex life and focus their thinking on Christ.


Quote
The angel of the Lord didn't command Joseph not to have relations with Mary until she gave birth.   And I believe that this is even MORE evidence that the couple had entered into an abstinent caretaker-type marriage.  Because that period between conception and birth is one where the husband and wife often have relations.

Furthermore, the use of the word "until" doesn't assure that a future action actually took place.

There are many cases in scripture where it does not.  Including sayings like "until the day of his death" and "until his enemies are placed beneath his feet".


The word is oft use to show a continuous state that exists during a certain period of time.

And so scripture's use of the word [/u]"until" here doesn't disprove that Mary remained a virgin.  Rather, the purpose of this scripture is to show that the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 is fulfilled perfectly, that a virgin will conceive AND bear a son.

knew her not                      until                 she had given birth


what  men   twist  this   to mean  shows  God's   infinite   wisdom  is  making   the  female   the   one   to    give   birth.

Quote
When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

 "until the day of his death'   -  a change would be made on the day of his death...


"until his enemies are placed beneath his feet"   -  a change would take place when His enemies were placed beneath His feet...


"but knew her not until she had given birth to a son"  -  a change would take place once Mary gave birth to her Son.   What change would that be?

Would it be a change if he continued  not to 'know'  her?

Offline skeeter

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1651
  • Manna: 17
  • Gender: Female
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #44 on: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 21:40:09 »
sex is by no means natural or normal in a Church and especially on a high altar specially sanctified to the Lord "blessed is the womb that bore Him" - just you tell her son that that was not so - wincam
did I miss a post? who is talking about sex in a Church on an altar?

Offline skeeter

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1651
  • Manna: 17
  • Gender: Female
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #45 on: Mon Sep 14, 2015 - 22:23:49 »
Would Mary have been in sin for laying with her husband after the birth of the Lord? Surely not.
Not in a normal marriage.  But if she violated a vow that she made to the Lord, or Joseph demanded that she violate a vow, then yes there would have been sin involved in that act.
this 'supposed' vow is made up by Catholics taken from some unbiblical writing to support their pv teaching.

Offline wincam

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Mother and Son ?
« Reply #46 on: Tue Sep 15, 2015 - 05:25:39 »
via google try 'Temple Virgins'  - any comments - wincam

 

     
anything