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Offline wincam

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #35 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 07:42:14 »
repeat for sure God has told us via His word/Church/Tradition/Church fathers/early Christians and not by so called latter day. centuries later, reformers - wincam

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #35 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 07:42:14 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #36 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 08:02:09 »
How hard is this verse to understand???????

Matthew 1:25
25 but he kept her a virgin until she had given birth to a Son [her firstborn child]; and he named Him Jesus (The Lord is salvation

A virgin giving birth? Come on, how could such a thing happen? Really, if that can be believed than anything else can also be possible.

That argument swings both ways.
Do you think it is possible Mary did not remain a virgin?

With God anything is possible. We only believe what each of us believes by faith and that encompasses the whole of the Christian story. The Mormon believes his version, as does the JW, as does the AOG member, as do you and I. That's it in a nutshell. On the day of our passing from this world the veil will be lifted from each of our eyes and we will then know for sure.
 

We do know for sure, God has told us.


sure, we know for sure, for God has told us via Scriptures, Tradition, Church Fathers, early Christians etc - wincam

What is the earliest writing you have from an early church father that supports perpetual virginity?

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #36 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 08:02:09 »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #37 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 08:23:24 »
How hard is this verse to understand???????

Matthew 1:25
25 but he kept her a virgin until she had given birth to a Son [her firstborn child]; and he named Him Jesus (The Lord is salvation

A virgin giving birth? Come on, how could such a thing happen? Really, if that can be believed than anything else can also be possible.

God is perfectly able to enable a human being to give birth to His son, after all He IS God.  However He also tells us in the above verse that Mary had normal sexual relationship with her husband. Do you believe what God says or not?

He says no such thing definitively. For me, it's really no big deal if she was or wasn't, but I have to go with the Catholic teaching on this matter. There are other places in the Scriptures that are clear and precise yet you do not believe what has been written, but suddenly in this case the words are sacrosanct.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #38 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 08:27:12 »
How hard is this verse to understand???????

Matthew 1:25
25 but he kept her a virgin until she had given birth to a Son [her firstborn child]; and he named Him Jesus (The Lord is salvation

A virgin giving birth? Come on, how could such a thing happen? Really, if that can be believed than anything else can also be possible.

That argument swings both ways.
Do you think it is possible Mary did not remain a virgin?

With God anything is possible. We only believe what each of us believes by faith and that encompasses the whole of the Christian story. The Mormon believes his version, as does the JW, as does the AOG member, as do you and I. That's it in a nutshell. On the day of our passing from this world the veil will be lifted from each of our eyes and we will then know for sure.
 

We do know for sure, God has told us.

God has told us many things and from that we come to our own truth about them. You might be 25% wrong on your interpretation of the Scriptures, or 50%, or maybe 75%, or maybe it's us orthodox Christians who are. Only on our passing from this world will we know for sure.

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #38 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 08:27:12 »

Offline wincam

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #39 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 08:30:35 »
How hard is this verse to understand???????

Matthew 1:25
25 but he kept her a virgin until she had given birth to a Son [her firstborn child]; and he named Him Jesus (The Lord is salvation

A virgin giving birth? Come on, how could such a thing happen? Really, if that can be believed than anything else can also be possible.

That argument swings both ways.
Do you think it is possible Mary did not remain a virgin?

With God anything is possible. We only believe what each of us believes by faith and that encompasses the whole of the Christian story. The Mormon believes his version, as does the JW, as does the AOG member, as do you and I. That's it in a nutshell. On the day of our passing from this world the veil will be lifted from each of our eyes and we will then know for sure.
 

We do know for sure, God has told us.


sure, we know for sure, for God has told us via Scriptures, Tradition, Church Fathers, early Christians etc - wincam

What is the earliest writing you have from an early church father that supports perpetual virginity?


it seems you did not or will not as requested google [Virgin Mary/Church Fathers] - why not do so now and learn much else also - wincam

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #39 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 08:30:35 »



Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #40 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 08:38:27 »
Mary, virgin at the birth of Jesus.  After, not so much.


Offline chosenone

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #41 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 09:42:01 »
repeat for sure God has told us via His word/Church/Tradition/Church fathers/early Christians and not by so called latter day. centuries later, reformers - wincam
 


No He hasnt, He has told us through his infallible word that Mary wasnt a virgin after Jesus was born.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #42 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 09:43:07 »
How hard is this verse to understand???????

Matthew 1:25
25 but he kept her a virgin until she had given birth to a Son [her firstborn child]; and he named Him Jesus (The Lord is salvation

A virgin giving birth? Come on, how could such a thing happen? Really, if that can be believed than anything else can also be possible.

That argument swings both ways.
Do you think it is possible Mary did not remain a virgin?

With God anything is possible. We only believe what each of us believes by faith and that encompasses the whole of the Christian story. The Mormon believes his version, as does the JW, as does the AOG member, as do you and I. That's it in a nutshell. On the day of our passing from this world the veil will be lifted from each of our eyes and we will then know for sure.
 

We do know for sure, God has told us.


sure, we know for sure, for God has told us via Scriptures, Tradition, Church Fathers, early Christians etc - wincam

What is the earliest writing you have from an early church father that supports perpetual virginity?


it seems you did not or will not as requested google [Virgin Mary/Church Fathers] - why not do so now and learn much else also - wincam



I think I trust God in his word more than google.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #43 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 09:44:37 »
How hard is this verse to understand???????

Matthew 1:25
25 but he kept her a virgin until she had given birth to a Son [her firstborn child]; and he named Him Jesus (The Lord is salvation

A virgin giving birth? Come on, how could such a thing happen? Really, if that can be believed than anything else can also be possible.

That argument swings both ways.
Do you think it is possible Mary did not remain a virgin?

With God anything is possible. We only believe what each of us believes by faith and that encompasses the whole of the Christian story. The Mormon believes his version, as does the JW, as does the AOG member, as do you and I. That's it in a nutshell. On the day of our passing from this world the veil will be lifted from each of our eyes and we will then know for sure.
 

We do know for sure, God has told us.

God has told us many things and from that we come to our own truth about them. You might be 25% wrong on your interpretation of the Scriptures, or 50%, or maybe 75%, or maybe it's us orthodox Christians who are. Only on our passing from this world will we know for sure.
 
I have to do go with Gods teaching on the matter not mans. 
What part of 'Mary and Joseph didnt have sex till after Jesus was born' is hard to understand? WHy do you trust a mans word against Gods?
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 09:46:55 by chosenone »

Offline wincam

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #44 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 10:57:39 »
no where except in way out, dodgy imagination and interpretation does it directly state Joseph and Mary had sex - it is more than likely that Joseph like his Lord and Master became a eunuch - in this wise via google see [Virgin Mary/Church Fathers] - wincam

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #45 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 11:03:25 »
no where except in way out, dodgy imagination and interpretation does it directly state Joseph and Mary had sex - it is more than likely that Joseph like his Lord and Master became a eunuch - in this wise via google see [Virgin Mary/Church Fathers] - wincam

Is there any biblical evidence that suggests this?  I don't know of one.  What point is there in getting married if she wasn't really to be a wife to him and he made it so it was impossible to be a true husband?

They could have just been neighbors and he cared for her, provided for her.  This is just so silly!

And, again I ask you...WHY does it matter so much to you?  Is your hope founded on Mary's sex life or is it on what Jesus did for you on the cross?

Offline wincam

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #46 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 11:11:27 »
no where except in way out, dodgy imagination and interpretation does it directly state Joseph and Mary had sex - it is more than likely that Joseph like his Lord and Master became a eunuch - in this wise via google see [Virgin Mary/Church Fathers] - wincam

Is there any biblical evidence that suggests this?  I don't know of one.  What point is there in getting married if she wasn't really to be a wife to him and he made it so it was impossible to be a true husband?

They could have just been neighbors and he cared for her, provided for her.  This is just so silly!

And, again I ask you...WHY does it matter so much to you?  Is your hope founded on Mary's sex life or is it on what Jesus did for you on the cross?


it matters because as at least one woman realised we are talking about the sacred and the divine and not just things mundane "blessed is the womb that bore thee" - wincam

Offline chosenone

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #47 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 11:11:58 »
no where except in way out, dodgy imagination and interpretation does it directly state Joseph and Mary had sex - it is more than likely that Joseph like his Lord and Master became a eunuch - in this wise via google see [Virgin Mary/Church Fathers] - wincam
yes it does.Eunochs didnt marry.  Can you hear yourself????What you says is pure nonsense and entirely unbiblical. 
OK so here is what God says in 24 different translations of the Bible. Can you show me what part of what God says here is dodgy please? Where it says anything BUT that they had sex as a normal married couple?
 
Matthew 1 v 25

New International Version
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

New Living Translation
But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

English Standard Version
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
But he did not know her until she had brought forth a Son, and he called His name Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

King James Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.

International Standard Version
He did not have marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

NET Bible
but did not have marital relations with her until she gave birth to a son, whom he named Jesus.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he did not know her sexually until she delivered her firstborn son, and she called his name Yeshua.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He did not have marital relations with her before she gave birth to a son. Joseph named the child Jesus.

New American Standard 1977
and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name Jesus.

King James 2000 Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

American King James Version
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

American Standard Version
and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Darby Bible Translation
and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

English Revised Version
and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

Webster's Bible Translation
And knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born son: and he called his name JESUS.

Weymouth New Testament
but did not live with her until she had given birth to a son. The child's name he called JESUS.

World English Bible
and didn't know her sexually until she had brought forth her firstborn son. He named him Jesus.

Young's Literal Translation
and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #48 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 11:13:12 »
no where except in way out, dodgy imagination and interpretation does it directly state Joseph and Mary had sex - it is more than likely that Joseph like his Lord and Master became a eunuch - in this wise via google see [Virgin Mary/Church Fathers] - wincam

Is there any biblical evidence that suggests this?  I don't know of one.  What point is there in getting married if she wasn't really to be a wife to him and he made it so it was impossible to be a true husband?

They could have just been neighbors and he cared for her, provided for her.  This is just so silly!

And, again I ask you...WHY does it matter so much to you?  Is your hope founded on Mary's sex life or is it on what Jesus did for you on the cross?


it matters because as at least one woman realised we are talking about the sacred and the divine and not just things mundane "blessed is the womb that bore thee" - wincam

HOW does it matter?  Is your salvation hinged upon it?

And what woman? 

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #49 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 11:20:16 »
It matters because it is dogma.  Poorly thought out dogma as well.

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #50 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 11:33:44 »
It matters because it is dogma.  Poorly thought out dogma as well.

Ok, but must they believe in this and fight for it because it is a matter of their salvation? If so, I hope they really start questioning it.  Jesus said He alone is the way...Mary's virginity is not.

Offline Rella

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #51 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 12:22:32 »
There are other places in the Scriptures that are clear and precise yet you do not believe what has been written, but suddenly in this case the words are sacrosanct.

WHERE?

Give us book, chapter and verse.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #52 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 12:59:26 »
There are other places in the Scriptures that are clear and precise yet you do not believe what has been written, but suddenly in this case the words are sacrosanct.

WHERE?

Give us book, chapter and verse.


Matt 26:26. Mk 14:22-24. Lk 22:19-20. His words are clear and precise yet you deny them, twisting them to come up with an interpretation that comes on line with your train of thought on the issue. All kinds of questions are raised by you folks about this, but on the firstborn son/marital sex/perpetual virginity argument the case is closed and all must believe what the words actually state.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #53 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 13:03:45 »
There are other places in the Scriptures that are clear and precise yet you do not believe what has been written, but suddenly in this case the words are sacrosanct.

WHERE?

Give us book, chapter and verse.


Matt 26:26. Mk 14:22-24. Lk 22:19-20. His words are clear and precise yet you deny them, twisting them to come up with an interpretation that comes on line with your train of thought on the issue. All kinds of questions are raised by you folks about this, but on the firstborn son/marital sex/perpetual virginity argument the case is closed and all must believe what the words actually state.

which is this

Matthew 1 v 25

New International Version
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

New Living Translation
But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

English Standard Version
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
But he did not know her until she had brought forth a Son, and he called His name Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

King James Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.

International Standard Version
He did not have marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

NET Bible
but did not have marital relations with her until she gave birth to a son, whom he named Jesus.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he did not know her sexually until she delivered her firstborn son, and she called his name Yeshua.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He did not have marital relations with her before she gave birth to a son. Joseph named the child Jesus.

New American Standard 1977
and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name Jesus.

King James 2000 Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

American King James Version
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

American Standard Version
and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Darby Bible Translation
and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

English Revised Version
and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

Webster's Bible Translation
And knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born son: and he called his name JESUS.

Weymouth New Testament
but did not live with her until she had given birth to a son. The child's name he called JESUS.

World English Bible
and didn't know her sexually until she had brought forth her firstborn son. He named him Jesus.

Young's Literal Translation
and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #54 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 14:10:55 »
There are other places in the Scriptures that are clear and precise yet you do not believe what has been written, but suddenly in this case the words are sacrosanct.

WHERE?

Give us book, chapter and verse.


Matt 26:26. Mk 14:22-24. Lk 22:19-20. His words are clear and precise yet you deny them, twisting them to come up with an interpretation that comes on line with your train of thought on the issue. All kinds of questions are raised by you folks about this, but on the firstborn son/marital sex/perpetual virginity argument the case is closed and all must believe what the words actually state.

which is this

Matthew 1 v 25

New International Version
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

New Living Translation
But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

English Standard Version
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
But he did not know her until she had brought forth a Son, and he called His name Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

King James Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.

International Standard Version
He did not have marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

NET Bible
but did not have marital relations with her until she gave birth to a son, whom he named Jesus.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he did not know her sexually until she delivered her firstborn son, and she called his name Yeshua.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He did not have marital relations with her before she gave birth to a son. Joseph named the child Jesus.

New American Standard 1977
and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name Jesus.

King James 2000 Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

American King James Version
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

American Standard Version
and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Darby Bible Translation
and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

English Revised Version
and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

Webster's Bible Translation
And knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born son: and he called his name JESUS.

Weymouth New Testament
but did not live with her until she had given birth to a son. The child's name he called JESUS.

World English Bible
and didn't know her sexually until she had brought forth her firstborn son. He named him Jesus.

Young's Literal Translation
and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.


Here are some thoughts from the big guys of the Protestant Reformation concerning this issue:

Martin Luther wrote:

"When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom." (That Jesus was Born a Jew)

"Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. […] Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him.

Huldrych Zwingli wrote:

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424)

Even John Wesley, in 1749, wrote:

"I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin." (Letter to a Roman Catholic)


So you see, it's not just us Catholics who have thought of this.

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #55 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 14:12:51 »
There are other places in the Scriptures that are clear and precise yet you do not believe what has been written, but suddenly in this case the words are sacrosanct.
WHERE?

Give us book, chapter and verse.
Matt 26:26. Mk 14:22-24. Lk 22:19-20. His words are clear and precise yet you deny them, twisting them to come up with an interpretation that comes on line with your train of thought on the issue. All kinds of questions are raised by you folks about this, but on the firstborn son/marital sex/perpetual virginity argument the case is closed and all must believe what the words actually state.

How do you interpret this verse -

John 6:35

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."


do you take it to mean those that follow Christ never again need to eat (no hunger ever again) or drink anything either (won't ever be thirsty again)?


Offline Ladonia

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #56 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 14:38:25 »
There are other places in the Scriptures that are clear and precise yet you do not believe what has been written, but suddenly in this case the words are sacrosanct.
WHERE?

Give us book, chapter and verse.
Matt 26:26. Mk 14:22-24. Lk 22:19-20. His words are clear and precise yet you deny them, twisting them to come up with an interpretation that comes on line with your train of thought on the issue. All kinds of questions are raised by you folks about this, but on the firstborn son/marital sex/perpetual virginity argument the case is closed and all must believe what the words actually state.

How do you interpret this verse -

John 6:35

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."


do you take it to mean those that follow Christ never again need to eat (no hunger ever again) or drink anything either (won't ever be thirsty again)?

I'm not the one who has claimed that we must take all of the Scriptures literally, but there are times when we should and this is surely one of them. He gave us the Eucharist as His continued presence with us, our chance for communion with Him, and as the Scriptures say the permanent memorial of his death forward. The early Christians understood this and that was always the focal point of worship.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #57 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 15:30:26 »
There are other places in the Scriptures that are clear and precise yet you do not believe what has been written, but suddenly in this case the words are sacrosanct.
WHERE?

Give us book, chapter and verse.
Matt 26:26. Mk 14:22-24. Lk 22:19-20. His words are clear and precise yet you deny them, twisting them to come up with an interpretation that comes on line with your train of thought on the issue. All kinds of questions are raised by you folks about this, but on the firstborn son/marital sex/perpetual virginity argument the case is closed and all must believe what the words actually state.
How do you interpret this verse -

John 6:35

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."


do you take it to mean those that follow Christ never again need to eat (no hunger ever again) or drink anything either (won't ever be thirsty again)?
I'm not the one who has claimed that we must take all of the Scriptures literally, but there are times when we should and this is surely one of them. He gave us the Eucharist as His continued presence with us, our chance for communion with Him, and as the Scriptures say the permanent memorial of his death forward. The early Christians understood this and that was always the focal point of worship.
so basically, you have no clue... I'm not surprised.
yet, you proclaim that others should believe what you do because this person and that person - and here's another person  say the same.  Yet the word of God says differently - and you choose to believe these earthly, fallible men over God.

What you need to learn is to read and understand the word of God.

Offline Rella

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #58 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 15:50:43 »
There are other places in the Scriptures that are clear and precise yet you do not believe what has been written, but suddenly in this case the words are sacrosanct.
WHERE?

Give us book, chapter and verse.
Matt 26:26. Mk 14:22-24. Lk 22:19-20. His words are clear and precise yet you deny them, twisting them to come up with an interpretation that comes on line with your train of thought on the issue. All kinds of questions are raised by you folks about this, but on the firstborn son/marital sex/perpetual virginity argument the case is closed and all must believe what the words actually state.

How do you interpret this verse -

John 6:35

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."


do you take it to mean those that follow Christ never again need to eat (no hunger ever again) or drink anything either (won't ever be thirsty again)?

HOW in the world did you manage to jump to The Holy Eucharist/ Holy Communion when this thread is about Mary's virginity or lack thereof.

 Ladonia you wrote

    "There are other places in the Scriptures that are clear and precise yet you do not believe what has been written, but suddenly in this case the words are sacrosanct."

In response to the many translations of Mathew 1:25 that all point to Mary and Joseph being a couple after Jesus was born.

Chosenone gave you quite a list in addition to my NKJV and the Bible the Catholic Bishops had used.

I responded with....

"WHERE?

Give us book, chapter and verse." (believing you had other areas in the Holy Book  that would prove your point.

And you give us verses that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Now.... if you have had enough of this and want to take the subject and change it.... Let's start a new thread and
just let this one die out.

As was said.... when we cross over we will know for certain... but until then if it states until I have to believe until.

Do I believe the Book is inerrant. YES

I also know that translators may have erred, not in the words used but in the capitalization, punctuation and format of books and verses as the original languages were not written that way.

I also believe it may be incomplete. Not just that certain gospels were not included but that some may be lost.
But that is a conversation for another thread.

The message is clear. The history is clear. And again when we cross over we will know.





 


Offline wincam

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #59 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 18:27:35 »
The message is certainly clear that as of old so also now 'they walk no more with Him'...... Jn.6:66 the mark of the beast - wincam

Offline kensington

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #60 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 18:49:50 »
 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." 

The words Jesus spoke were Spirit.  Why do Catholics always leave that out?

Offline skeeter

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #61 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 23:09:33 »
The message is certainly clear that as of old so also now 'they walk no more with Him'...... Jn.6:66 the mark of the beast - wincam
can you translate this?

Offline skeeter

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #62 on: Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 23:12:38 »
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." 

The words Jesus spoke were Spirit.  Why do Catholics always leave that out?
they leave it out because it would change the meaning to what it should be from what the RCC tells them it's about.

I don't think they even read that far into the chapter.

Offline wincam

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #63 on: Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 04:42:12 »
this is crazy and gets crazier implying that Catholics are somehow unable to interpret scriptures and only Protestants are able to do so - it is in fact vice versa hence the many odd and strange interpretations by the many odd and strange Protestant denominations - no further proof is needed  - wincam

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #64 on: Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 07:13:59 »
There are other places in the Scriptures that are clear and precise yet you do not believe what has been written, but suddenly in this case the words are sacrosanct.
WHERE?

Give us book, chapter and verse.
Matt 26:26. Mk 14:22-24. Lk 22:19-20. His words are clear and precise yet you deny them, twisting them to come up with an interpretation that comes on line with your train of thought on the issue. All kinds of questions are raised by you folks about this, but on the firstborn son/marital sex/perpetual virginity argument the case is closed and all must believe what the words actually state.
How do you interpret this verse -

John 6:35

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."


do you take it to mean those that follow Christ never again need to eat (no hunger ever again) or drink anything either (won't ever be thirsty again)?
I'm not the one who has claimed that we must take all of the Scriptures literally, but there are times when we should and this is surely one of them. He gave us the Eucharist as His continued presence with us, our chance for communion with Him, and as the Scriptures say the permanent memorial of his death forward. The early Christians understood this and that was always the focal point of worship.
so basically, you have no clue... I'm not surprised.
yet, you proclaim that others should believe what you do because this person and that person - and here's another person  say the same.  Yet the word of God says differently - and you choose to believe these earthly, fallible men over God.

What you need to learn is to read and understand the word of God.

What do you mean no clue? I gave you my answer yet you do not want to accept it. The fact is, I do read the word of God and am able to understand it because I give great deference to the institution called the Church and it's thousands of years of study on the matter. Personal interpretation and the modernist interpretation that you follow has led to nothing but confusion and division amongst the thousands of new Christian sects. Now why would I want to follow that sort of lead?

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #65 on: Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 09:10:09 »
this is crazy and gets crazier implying that Catholics are somehow unable to interpret scriptures and only Protestants are able to do so - it is in fact vice versa hence the many odd and strange interpretations by the many odd and strange Protestant denominations - no further proof is needed  - wincam

 rofl  You are a funny man, Wincam.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #66 on: Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 09:20:51 »
this is crazy and gets crazier implying that Catholics are somehow unable to interpret scriptures and only Protestants are able to do so - it is in fact vice versa hence the many odd and strange interpretations by the many odd and strange Protestant denominations - no further proof is needed  - wincam
 


Its not just being able to interpret the easiest verses such as 'Mary and Joseph didnt have sex until after Jesus was born', but adding things to scripture that arent there at all or that even contradict scripture.

Offline wincam

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #67 on: Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 12:39:49 »
this is crazy and gets crazier implying that Catholics are somehow unable to interpret scriptures and only Protestants are able to do so - it is in fact vice versa hence the many odd and strange interpretations by the many odd and strange Protestant denominations - no further proof is needed  - wincam
 


Its not just being able to interpret the easiest verses such as 'Mary and Joseph didnt have sex until after Jesus was born', but adding things to scripture that arent there at all or that even contradict scripture.


obviously you do not interpret scriptures as the early Church Fathers did and had it all wrong for hundreds of years before the Reformation - wincam

Offline skeeter

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #68 on: Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 21:17:17 »
this is crazy and gets crazier implying that Catholics are somehow unable to interpret scriptures and only Protestants are able to do so - it is in fact vice versa hence the many odd and strange interpretations by the many odd and strange Protestant denominations - no further proof is needed  - wincam
Its not just being able to interpret the easiest verses such as 'Mary and Joseph didnt have sex until after Jesus was born', but adding things to scripture that arent there at all or that even contradict scripture.
obviously you do not interpret scriptures as the early Church Fathers did and had it all wrong for hundreds of years before the Reformation - wincam
why would one take what the RCC calls the ecfs word for it over that of the Apostles in the Bible?  Those who were taught directly by Christ...

yes, obviously they had it wrong from the very early days.   There's nothing to say they're inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Natural and Normal ?
« Reply #69 on: Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 21:19:44 »
this is crazy and gets crazier implying that Catholics are somehow unable to interpret scriptures and only Protestants are able to do so - it is in fact vice versa hence the many odd and strange interpretations by the many odd and strange Protestant denominations - no further proof is needed  - wincam
 


Its not just being able to interpret the easiest verses such as 'Mary and Joseph didnt have sex until after Jesus was born', but adding things to scripture that arent there at all or that even contradict scripture.


obviously you do not interpret scriptures as the early Church Fathers did and had it all wrong for hundreds of years before the Reformation - wincam

Not sure how else it can be interpreted, its so easy to understand.  ::shrug::

 

     
anything