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Author Topic: New "strategy" on abuse victims...  (Read 3045 times)

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Offline DaveW

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2012, 12:09:53 PM »
1. "Allah" is the Arabic word for God. Specifically for Muslims the God of Abraham because Islam teaches that the God of Abraham is the father of Islam. It also teaches that Ishmael rather than Jacob was the one to be sacrificed.
Tecnically that is true.

However, when Mohammed started teacing monotheism to polytheistic arabic tribes, he had to pick from their own pantheon.  He selected the Moon-god to be Alah. (hence the pervasive crecent moon imagery in islam)

The descriptions of the islam "alah" and the God of the bible are VERY DIFFERENT. With  alah, there is no personal relating, no mercy and no grace.

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2012, 12:09:53 PM »

Offline Paulus

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2012, 01:56:33 PM »


The descriptions of the islam "alah" and the God of the bible are VERY DIFFERENT. With  alah, there is no personal relating, no mercy and no grace.

The above is incorrect .

In the Quran God is viewed as a personal God who responds whenever a person in need or distress calls upon Him .

For example see Quran 2:186 .

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2012, 01:56:33 PM »

Offline Scott1

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2012, 02:23:44 PM »
** sigh **

Yes, Allah who teaches "He begetteth not nor was begotten." is a swell fella.


Online kensington

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2012, 10:07:11 PM »
"Allah" is the Arabic for the English word "God" .

If you attended a Christian liturgy in Arabic you would hear the word Allah for God .

Yes, perhaps.  I get that.  And if Muslims spoke English they would say "God"?  Would they be speaking of the same God we speak of. God the Father. Our Father, Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be THY name.... Same "God"?

I don't think so.

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2012, 10:07:11 PM »

Online kensington

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2012, 10:08:49 PM »
** sigh **

Yes, Allah who teaches "He begetteth not nor was begotten." is a swell fella.




 ::giggle::

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2012, 10:08:49 PM »



Offline Paulus

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2012, 03:55:29 AM »
" Upon the Moslems the Church looks with esteem . They adore one God , living and enduring , merciful and all-powerful , Maker of heaven and earth , and Speaker to men . They strive to submit wholeheartedly even to His inscrutable decrees , just as did Abraham , with whom the Islamic faith is pleased to associate itself . " ( from "Nostra Aetate" ) .

Offline DaveW

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2012, 04:31:02 AM »
" Upon the Moslems the Church looks with esteem . They adore one God , living and enduring , merciful and all-powerful , Maker of heaven and earth , and Speaker to men . They strive to submit wholeheartedly even to His inscrutable decrees , just as did Abraham , with whom the Islamic faith is pleased to associate itself . " ( from "Nostra Aetate" ) .
So the "church" looks to those under the influence of Antichist "...with esteem?" How wrong is that?

It is foundational to islamic theology that "god has no son." THat phrase is written over the door to the Dome of the Rock shrine/mosque that sits atop the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

The book of First John tells me that denying the Son is antichrist.

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2012, 05:25:02 AM »
Catholic Cathechism 841

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Offline DaveW

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2012, 05:55:03 AM »
That cathechism needs to change.

islam is an evil demonic religion. It needs to be recognized as such.

Their mantra has long been "First the Saturday people and then the Sunday people," meaning first they eradicate the Jews and then the Christians.

They will be coming after us to delete us out of the world.

http://jerusalemworldnews.com/2012/02/13/first-the-saturday-people-then-the-sunday-people/

Offline Scott1

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2012, 08:35:36 AM »
Don't get me wrong gang, I believe the Catechism is correct. 

For context:
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

What I am saying is that the Church puts too much focus on this almost "universal salvation" message instead of openly calling for all to come to Christ.  Yeah it is implied, but for political/peace reasons (not really an evil intent) does not call Islam what it truly is -- HERESY.

For anyone who wants to learn about St John of Damascus and his teaching that Islam was not a NEW religion, but just another Christian heresy : http://www.bombaxo.com/blog/?p=210

Offline DaveW

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2012, 08:47:08 AM »
When islam holds to "God has no son," it falls away from ANYTHING Christian, even heretical christian and becomes a false demonic belief system that has absolutely no salvation.  They are all doomed to hell unless they repent. 

Salvation is found ONLY in the Son of God, by His death and resurrection. To call Him anything other than God in the flesh, God's only begotten Son, is to believe in "some other Jesus" which Paul resoundly condemned.

Offline Scott1

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2012, 08:56:31 AM »
Mods forgive me for straying off topic, but it is my thread.  ::smile::

DaveW- Do you believe that EVERYONE who does not believe Jesus is Lord goes to hell?

Even those who never hear the Gospel - God punishes them for eternity because the committed the grave sin of being born in the wrong place?

As a Jew by birth I have a hard time attacking a entire group of people - must be in my DNA from my family who survived the Shoah -- so I am curious to hear someone so closely connected to Judaism condemn an entire people.

Thanks for you time and reply Dave.
-S

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2012, 09:06:20 AM »
Don't get me wrong gang, I believe the Catechism is correct. 

For context:
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

What I am saying is that the Church puts too much focus on this almost "universal salvation" message instead of openly calling for all to come to Christ.  Yeah it is implied, but for political/peace reasons (not really an evil intent) does not call Islam what it truly is -- HERESY.

For anyone who wants to learn about St John of Damascus and his teaching that Islam was not a NEW religion, but just another Christian heresy : http://www.bombaxo.com/blog/?p=210


Just curious.

Is there a reason to mention Islam at all in the catechism?
If for political/peace reasons the church cannot express what she really thinks of Islam, why mention it in the first place?

I have always understood CC841 as a recognition by the Catholic Church that Islam parttakes in salvation, or at least is considered as incorporated into the plan of salvation.

Would it not be better to scrap CC841 all together then?

Offline Scott1

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2012, 09:45:04 AM »
Don't get me wrong gang, I believe the Catechism is correct. 

For context:
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

What I am saying is that the Church puts too much focus on this almost "universal salvation" message instead of openly calling for all to come to Christ.  Yeah it is implied, but for political/peace reasons (not really an evil intent) does not call Islam what it truly is -- HERESY.

For anyone who wants to learn about St John of Damascus and his teaching that Islam was not a NEW religion, but just another Christian heresy : http://www.bombaxo.com/blog/?p=210


Just curious.

Is there a reason to mention Islam at all in the catechism?
If for political/peace reasons the church cannot express what she really thinks of Islam, why mention it in the first place?

I have always understood CC841 as a recognition by the Catholic Church that Islam parttakes in salvation, or at least is considered as incorporated into the plan of salvation.

Would it not be better to scrap CC841 all together then?

Well, it is not taken out because it is part of the Chapter that deals with our definition of "Church":

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"
Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic
-The Church and non-Christians


... so it is an important teaching concering our relationship with non-Catholics.

No need to scrap, IMO, just balance it with clear and concise teachings on what is truly deficient in Islam instead of focusing on the rare chance a Muslim could be saved.

Offline DaveW

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Re: New "strategy" on abuse victims...
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2012, 10:28:01 AM »
DaveW- Do you believe that EVERYONE who does not believe Jesus is Lord goes to hell?
In general - yes.  Peter testified thusly:

Acts 4.12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.