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Author Topic: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures  (Read 5715 times)

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Offline Catholica

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #35 on: Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 07:56:16 »
Then there is "tradition" which St. Paul wrote clearly about that is also to be considered and respected.

Is that the "tradition" of which Paul says "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter" and of which the Catholic Church has absolutely no proof whatsoever that they were actually taught by the apostles?

What proof do you have that the scriptures came from the apostles or the ones who knew them?

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #35 on: Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 07:56:16 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #36 on: Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20 »
Then there is "tradition" which St. Paul wrote clearly about that is also to be considered and respected.

Is that the "tradition" of which Paul says "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter" and of which the Catholic Church has absolutely no proof whatsoever that they were actually taught by the apostles?

What proof do you have that the scriptures came from the apostles or the ones who knew them?

How about historical records confirming the authors were real existing people?
How about each author signing off their written works?
How about the various works confirming each others existence?
How about NT works complying to OT works?
How about cross referencing?
How about independent, non-biblical, records confirming biblical works?
How about fulfilled prophesies?
How about harmony, structure, concept, writing style, accuracy?

What we do not have is some sole agent in some city with presumed authority declaring something to be true for the sake of wanting it to be true.
What we do not have is ideology appealing to a verse in scripture (like the above verse from Paul), whilst the ideology itself does not comply to that verse.

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #36 on: Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #37 on: Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 12:23:44 »
Then there is "tradition" which St. Paul wrote clearly about that is also to be considered and respected.

Is that the "tradition" of which Paul says "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter" and of which the Catholic Church has absolutely no proof whatsoever that they were actually taught by the apostles?

What proof do you have that the scriptures came from the apostles or the ones who knew them?

How about historical records confirming the authors were real existing people?

Thomas was an apostle as well.  Yet the Gospel of Thomas is fake.  This proves nothing.

How about each author signing off their written works?

The "Gospel of Thomas" claims that Thomas wrote it.  This proves nothing.

Who wrote Hebrews?  Who wrote the Gospel of John?  You don't have this always, and even if you did, the author could have just pretended that he was one of the apostles.  It gives more authority to the work that way in theory, after all.

How about the various works confirming each others existence?

You have to make an assumption that they are referring to the work in question that I know of as being verified is that Paul wrote letters.  As to which letters are authentically Paul's we have to rely on Tradition.

How about NT works complying to OT works?

No idea what you mean by this, but anyone can make up stories that do that.  The book of Mormon I'm sure complies very well.

How about cross referencing?

Not sure what you mean by this, but there is no infallible cross-reference in the Bible.

How about independent, non-biblical, records confirming biblical works?

You mean, the Tradition of the Church?  Who is your authority?

How about fulfilled prophesies?

Like what?  Revelation?  How do you know it was written before they happened?  Prove it.

How about "unfulfilled prophecies" like the interpretations of Bible readers like Harold Camping?
Or perhaps the prophecy that John would suffer "a martyr's death"?

How about harmony, structure, concept, writing style, accuracy?

Lots of books in existence today have these; it doesn't prove who the author was, just that they had the same author.
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 12:28:45 by Catholica »

Offline kensington

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #38 on: Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 15:56:00 »
Aren't your arguments about Authenticity of authors a little moot, since you constantly claim that the CC canonized the bible for us all?  It seems to me that if it was not the Authority for God's word and His will....  the brag on the CC is just moot. 

If it can be tossed out for rumors and innuendos of men, traded to the catechism at every turn... what good is the Bible at all? 

Or is that the next step of the CC... to just tell man no Bible is needed. Let them tell you what God says or does?  Oh wait....  Yeah... they already did that. 

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #38 on: Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 15:56:00 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #39 on: Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 17:16:04 »
Then there is "tradition" which St. Paul wrote clearly about that is also to be considered and respected.

Is that the "tradition" of which Paul says "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter" and of which the Catholic Church has absolutely no proof whatsoever that they were actually taught by the apostles?

What proof do you have that the scriptures came from the apostles or the ones who knew them?

How about historical records confirming the authors were real existing people?

Thomas was an apostle as well.  Yet the Gospel of Thomas is fake.  This proves nothing.

How about each author signing off their written works?

The "Gospel of Thomas" claims that Thomas wrote it.  This proves nothing.

Who wrote Hebrews?  Who wrote the Gospel of John?  You don't have this always, and even if you did, the author could have just pretended that he was one of the apostles.  It gives more authority to the work that way in theory, after all.

How about the various works confirming each others existence?

You have to make an assumption that they are referring to the work in question that I know of as being verified is that Paul wrote letters.  As to which letters are authentically Paul's we have to rely on Tradition.

How about NT works complying to OT works?

No idea what you mean by this, but anyone can make up stories that do that.  The book of Mormon I'm sure complies very well.

How about cross referencing?

Not sure what you mean by this, but there is no infallible cross-reference in the Bible.

How about independent, non-biblical, records confirming biblical works?

You mean, the Tradition of the Church?  Who is your authority?

How about fulfilled prophesies?

Like what?  Revelation?  How do you know it was written before they happened?  Prove it.

How about "unfulfilled prophecies" like the interpretations of Bible readers like Harold Camping?
Or perhaps the prophecy that John would suffer "a martyr's death"?

How about harmony, structure, concept, writing style, accuracy?

Lots of books in existence today have these; it doesn't prove who the author was, just that they had the same author.

I don't know what it is you are trying to dispute, but obviously you have the idea the church fathers looked at the books and without due process said: "this book is in, this is out, in, in, out, out..."
If you would actually know HOW the Bible was put together you would know it was done according to a process. The process contained the points I mentioned above.

Now all your argumentation nullifies the process your own church handles to consolidate the Bible.
You just invalidated your own Bible.

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #39 on: Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 17:16:04 »



James56

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #40 on: Mon Jan 18, 2016 - 08:51:55 »
Most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard,we dont need the Holy Ghost.

LexKnight

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #41 on: Mon Jan 18, 2016 - 11:03:31 »
Most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard,we dont need the Holy Ghost.

Unfortunately, that's what many teach by their wording and action, though not directly.

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #42 on: Mon Jan 18, 2016 - 17:14:20 »
When Jesus called Simon Peter, it was because Simon had the Holy Spirit, this was why he got the key to the kingdom of Heaven.

Peter had the foundation on to build the Church (Christ body) built on a firm foundation (Rock) not sand like mans works.

If it's not of the Holy Spirit it is only a works of man just like PC is and that will lead all such only to damnation.

Satan comes across as a nice bloke, problem is he will feed ones sin nature and will only rob you of the Holy Spirit.   

James56

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #43 on: Mon Jan 18, 2016 - 20:37:00 »
IT doesnt mean we dont need the Holy Spirit,if we dont then we are not His,we wont know Him and we wont follow Him or recognize who the shepards that He has given authority to teach us.

Offline bemark

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #44 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 01:46:49 »
One of the main roles of the Holy Spirit is to teach us how to enter the spirit realm so we can be one with him, the place where our Father is in heaven the place in him. No man can show or teach you this way of truth that releases the life of him  through it. The way or path is only shown to us by the Holy Spirit who teaches us in the ways of the spirit. He teaches us how to unlock the doors of truth that are  all throughout the written word of God. So we can receive experience the life force that is behind it . That's when you feel the spirit realm open so on earth as it is in heaven. It's coming down and around you now. The Joy of the Lord is real and  all we have to do is sit in the doorway in the realm of the Spirit. When it opens its yours now to enter  when ever you want. The door of love the door of peace the door of forgiveness . Unending revelations of the heights and depths that we can explore in him because now we have him, the Holy Spirit.

Offline mclees8

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #45 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 08:55:24 »
it has not been realised that the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles and early Christians as they did not have the scriptures as we do to search to see if these things be so - see Jn.14:16,17and 26 and 15:26 and 16:7 and 13 - wincam

Who do say had this so called revelation. How do you come to such a conclusion by these scriptures you refer to. 

Offline grace

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #46 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 11:00:28 »
Without the Holy Spirit how can men be convicted (John 16)?
How is the believer regenerated? (John 3:5; Titus 3:5)?
Who indwells the believer?
Who seals, baptizes, infills, empowers, leads the believer?
Who administers the spiritual gifts to the believer?
I believe the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost and will remain with the church until our work here on earth is done. Jesus finished the work He came to do and so will the Holy Spirit!
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 12:00:51 by grace »

James56

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #47 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 11:41:50 »
 ::announcment::And I will pray the Father,and he shall give you another comforter,that he may abide with you forever; ::doh::[Even] the Spirit of truth;whom the world cannot recieve,because it seeth him not,neither knoweth him:but ye know him;for he dwelleth with you,and shall be in you. ::reading::John 14:16-17 ::headscratch:: ::pondering::
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 12:35:59 by James56 »

His Kid

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #48 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 11:48:50 »
::announcment::And I will pray the Father,and he shall give you another comforter,that he may abide with you forever; ::doh::[Even] the Spirit of truth;whom the world cannot recieve,because it seeth him not,neither knoweth him:but ye know him;for he dwelleth with you,and shall be in you. ::reading:: ::headscratch:: ::pondering::

I think people know if the Spirit abides in them or He doesn't. I would just accept the fact the Spirit doesn't abide in him.

James56

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #49 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 13:04:51 »
Because He is in you doesnt mean you will follow Him all the time even though you did at the start and because He is in you doesnt mean you have a full revelation of truth even if you believe you do and base everything you believe on the bible because you may be listening to your own voice.To really know truth one must be divorced from himself and anything he ever himself held,in other words what is out of his own heart and mind concerning God or the bible.

Offline Catholica

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #50 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 13:53:13 »
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

His Kid

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #51 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 14:29:10 »
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 14:54:13 by His Kid »

Offline Catholica

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #52 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:37:21 »
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.

Thanks, I'm glad that you agree.  The Church is not an organization.  That is very Catholic teaching.

From the Catechism

I. NAMES AND IMAGES OF THE CHURCH

751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."

752 In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body. 

139 Cf. Acts 19:39.
140 Cf. Ex 19.
141 Cf. 1 Cor 11:18; 14:19,28,34,35.
142 Cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 16:1.
143 Cf. 1 Cor 15:9; Gal 1:13; Phil 3:6.

However the Church indeed has an organization and IS organized.  The Church is built on the apostles and the prophets with Christ as it's cornerstone.  Ephesians 2:20.  The Church, using the authority of the keys which Jesus gave to it to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19), established roles, including bishop and priest and deacon, to carry out many of the sacraments that Jesus Christ established and commanded.   We know from Christ's commands in Matthew 18:17-18, for example, that in the kingdom there is an established authority to deal with spiritual issues. 

Jesus Christ himself was the first sacrament.  In his person He became an outward sign of the inward life of God when He took flesh.  The Church itself is sacramental because Jesus Christ himself is a sacrament.

His Kid

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #53 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:50:39 »
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.

Thanks, I'm glad that you agree.  The Church is not an organization.  That is very Catholic teaching.

From the Catechism

I. NAMES AND IMAGES OF THE CHURCH

751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."

752 In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body. 

139 Cf. Acts 19:39.
140 Cf. Ex 19.
141 Cf. 1 Cor 11:18; 14:19,28,34,35.
142 Cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 16:1.
143 Cf. 1 Cor 15:9; Gal 1:13; Phil 3:6.

However the Church indeed has an organization and IS organized.  The Church is built on the apostles and the prophets with Christ as it's cornerstone.  Ephesians 2:20.  The Church, using the authority of the keys which Jesus gave to it to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19), established roles, including bishop and priest and deacon, to carry out many of the sacraments that Jesus Christ established and commanded.   We know from Christ's commands in Matthew 18:17-18, for example, that in the kingdom there is an established authority to deal with spiritual issues. 

Jesus Christ himself was the first sacrament.  In his person He became an outward sign of the inward life of God when He took flesh.  The Church itself is sacramental because Jesus Christ himself is a sacrament.

I'm grateful that the RCC organization is not the true Church because that would be a truly sad commentary of my Lord.

Offline Catholica

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #54 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:58:26 »
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.

Thanks, I'm glad that you agree.  The Church is not an organization.  That is very Catholic teaching.

From the Catechism

I. NAMES AND IMAGES OF THE CHURCH

751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."

752 In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body. 

139 Cf. Acts 19:39.
140 Cf. Ex 19.
141 Cf. 1 Cor 11:18; 14:19,28,34,35.
142 Cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 16:1.
143 Cf. 1 Cor 15:9; Gal 1:13; Phil 3:6.

However the Church indeed has an organization and IS organized.  The Church is built on the apostles and the prophets with Christ as it's cornerstone.  Ephesians 2:20.  The Church, using the authority of the keys which Jesus gave to it to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19), established roles, including bishop and priest and deacon, to carry out many of the sacraments that Jesus Christ established and commanded.   We know from Christ's commands in Matthew 18:17-18, for example, that in the kingdom there is an established authority to deal with spiritual issues. 

Jesus Christ himself was the first sacrament.  In his person He became an outward sign of the inward life of God when He took flesh.  The Church itself is sacramental because Jesus Christ himself is a sacrament.

I'm grateful that the RCC organization is not the true Church because that would be a truly sad commentary of my Lord.

Do you believe that you yourself are an exemplary commentary of the Lord?

His Kid

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #55 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 17:08:17 »
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.

Thanks, I'm glad that you agree.  The Church is not an organization.  That is very Catholic teaching.

From the Catechism

I. NAMES AND IMAGES OF THE CHURCH

751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."

752 In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body. 

139 Cf. Acts 19:39.
140 Cf. Ex 19.
141 Cf. 1 Cor 11:18; 14:19,28,34,35.
142 Cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 16:1.
143 Cf. 1 Cor 15:9; Gal 1:13; Phil 3:6.

However the Church indeed has an organization and IS organized.  The Church is built on the apostles and the prophets with Christ as it's cornerstone.  Ephesians 2:20.  The Church, using the authority of the keys which Jesus gave to it to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19), established roles, including bishop and priest and deacon, to carry out many of the sacraments that Jesus Christ established and commanded.   We know from Christ's commands in Matthew 18:17-18, for example, that in the kingdom there is an established authority to deal with spiritual issues. 

Jesus Christ himself was the first sacrament.  In his person He became an outward sign of the inward life of God when He took flesh.  The Church itself is sacramental because Jesus Christ himself is a sacrament.

I'm grateful that the RCC organization is not the true Church because that would be a truly sad commentary of my Lord.

Do you believe that you yourself are an exemplary commentary of the Lord?

I am referring to the RCC organization itself, not any person that happens to attend that church. The RC Pope exalts himself above all this is God and the corruption in the RCC is profound. I'm grateful that the RCC is not the true Church because it would make ZERO sense.

I just caution you that when the Vatican begins to openly discuss contact with alien beings, that will be the great deception and a time in your life when you will have to make the decision to believe the deception or turn to the truth.

Offline Catholica

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #56 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 17:20:16 »
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.

Thanks, I'm glad that you agree.  The Church is not an organization.  That is very Catholic teaching.

From the Catechism

I. NAMES AND IMAGES OF THE CHURCH

751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."

752 In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body. 

139 Cf. Acts 19:39.
140 Cf. Ex 19.
141 Cf. 1 Cor 11:18; 14:19,28,34,35.
142 Cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 16:1.
143 Cf. 1 Cor 15:9; Gal 1:13; Phil 3:6.

However the Church indeed has an organization and IS organized.  The Church is built on the apostles and the prophets with Christ as it's cornerstone.  Ephesians 2:20.  The Church, using the authority of the keys which Jesus gave to it to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19), established roles, including bishop and priest and deacon, to carry out many of the sacraments that Jesus Christ established and commanded.   We know from Christ's commands in Matthew 18:17-18, for example, that in the kingdom there is an established authority to deal with spiritual issues. 

Jesus Christ himself was the first sacrament.  In his person He became an outward sign of the inward life of God when He took flesh.  The Church itself is sacramental because Jesus Christ himself is a sacrament.

I'm grateful that the RCC organization is not the true Church because that would be a truly sad commentary of my Lord.

Do you believe that you yourself are an exemplary commentary of the Lord?

I am referring to the RCC organization itself, not any person that happens to attend that church. The RC Pope exalts himself above all this is God and the corruption in the RCC is profound. I'm grateful that the RCC is not the true Church because it would make ZERO sense.

The Church is people and those people include the ones who are in the hierarchy as well as all the laity and everyone who is in the body of Christ.  Thus you know by default that the Church is made up of sinners, as all those in the body of Christ are also sinners.  So that sinners sometimes sin shouldn't be a scandal to you or any other Christian.

Thus if we were to imagine for a minute that those men who constitute the Catholic hierarchy are "nothing special" in the body of Christ, the Church (all believers) is no less a poor model of Christ, a sad commentary of our Lord.

It makes even LESS sense for the Church to not be organized.  That idea defies what we see in the early Church in the Bible, and also what we see in the very next generation of believers, the ones who learned from the apostles themselves.  There has ALWAYS been organization in the Church, and that is exactly how the Bible reads.

So to propose that a known set of beliefs and practices as well as an organized hierarchy of authority in the Church exists goes against the word of God.  To imply that there is not a set of true beliefs that the believer must accept, nor that there are not a set of religious practices commanded by our Lord that the believer must do, or that if there was a hierarchy of the Church that existed it would not scandalize us, those things are ALL ANTI-SCRIPTURAL and therefore FALSE.


His Kid

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #57 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 17:25:02 »
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.

Thanks, I'm glad that you agree.  The Church is not an organization.  That is very Catholic teaching.

From the Catechism

I. NAMES AND IMAGES OF THE CHURCH

751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."

752 In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body. 

139 Cf. Acts 19:39.
140 Cf. Ex 19.
141 Cf. 1 Cor 11:18; 14:19,28,34,35.
142 Cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 16:1.
143 Cf. 1 Cor 15:9; Gal 1:13; Phil 3:6.

However the Church indeed has an organization and IS organized.  The Church is built on the apostles and the prophets with Christ as it's cornerstone.  Ephesians 2:20.  The Church, using the authority of the keys which Jesus gave to it to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19), established roles, including bishop and priest and deacon, to carry out many of the sacraments that Jesus Christ established and commanded.   We know from Christ's commands in Matthew 18:17-18, for example, that in the kingdom there is an established authority to deal with spiritual issues. 

Jesus Christ himself was the first sacrament.  In his person He became an outward sign of the inward life of God when He took flesh.  The Church itself is sacramental because Jesus Christ himself is a sacrament.

I'm grateful that the RCC organization is not the true Church because that would be a truly sad commentary of my Lord.

Do you believe that you yourself are an exemplary commentary of the Lord?

I am referring to the RCC organization itself, not any person that happens to attend that church. The RC Pope exalts himself above all this is God and the corruption in the RCC is profound. I'm grateful that the RCC is not the true Church because it would make ZERO sense.

The Church is people and those people include the ones who are in the hierarchy as well as all the laity and everyone who is in the body of Christ.  Thus you know by default that the Church is made up of sinners, as all those in the body of Christ are also sinners.  So that sinners sometimes sin shouldn't be a scandal to you or any other Christian.

Thus if we were to imagine for a minute that those men who constitute the Catholic hierarchy are "nothing special" in the body of Christ, the Church (all believers) is no less a poor model of Christ, a sad commentary of our Lord.

It makes even LESS sense for the Church to not be organized.  That idea defies what we see in the early Church in the Bible, and also what we see in the very next generation of believers, the ones who learned from the apostles themselves.  There has ALWAYS been organization in the Church, and that is exactly how the Bible reads.

So to propose that a known set of beliefs and practices as well as an organized hierarchy of authority in the Church exists goes against the word of God.  To imply that there is not a set of true beliefs that the believer must accept, nor that there are not a set of religious practices commanded by our Lord that the believer must do, or that if there was a hierarchy of the Church that existed it would not scandalize us, those things are ALL ANTI-SCRIPTURAL and therefore FALSE.

Again, I am not referring to people who attend the church, I am referring to  those who embody the organization. You do not embody the organization. You are a parishioner.

It makes little sense to religious folks that Jesus did not establish a new religion, but it makes perfect sense to those who are in the church, not a religion. It is not disorganized at all, it just isn't a worldly religion. Just as the Jew expected their Savior to be some strong man who would come and rule their kindgom, they were wrong. They expected something to look worldly. You are making the same mistake. His church is not what you imagine it is.

AGAIN, and most importantly, watch the signs. When the Vatican begins to openly discuss (and they may already be doing it) contact with alien beings, that will be the time you need to make a decision.

James56

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #58 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 20:15:36 »
The organization are those attending the church too,to say different is a fabrication I believe.Its clear you are against the Catholic church for whatever personal reason that you have and to substantiate it these fabrications are a must but it doesnt make it a reality,it is your own personal reality.You should know that the church is not made up of what people believe personally about Christ and the gospel,the truth is a fact of reality and is not dependent upon the personal beliefs of individuals.The hierarchy was established in the begining and was a done deal whether we like it or not to me this is what really makes sense.Personally I would not have chosen the Catholic church but I had to be honest with myself and God,I needed to know the truth,aside from all the things people that are against the church dont like,I had to come to terms that morally no other church has the foundation that the church has as far as teaching on sin and death and salvation that if anyone is honest with the scriptures will see lines up,the soul that sins he shall die,this is the truth I had to come to terms with and dispite anything else,this is what tells me that the Catholic church is the church,simply because it has maintained the truth of sin and death,that every other group lost as a result of Luthers false teachings and to me these are a worse thing than anything that the Catholic church is accused of. ::shrug::

Offline kensington

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #59 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 21:11:02 »
What then do you say other non Catholic believers are?  If "The Church"  is only the established system with the hierarchy that is the CC, what will become of those who Believe on Christ and are saved by His blood sacrifice, who have repented of their sins and received Him as Lord? Who do you say they are?  What do you say they are if they are not Catholic or a part of the CC system?

LexKnight

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #60 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 21:16:11 »
What then do you say other non Catholic believers are?  If "The Church"  is only the established system with the hierarchy that is the CC, what will become of those who Believe on Christ and are saved by His blood sacrifice, who have repented of their sins and received Him as Lord? Who do you say they are?  What do you say they are if they are not Catholic or a part of the CC system?

I'm not the you but traditional RCC teaching would hold them as heretics so... there's that.

James56

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #61 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 22:13:24 »
Are you Catholic Lexknight?It was my understanding that to be considered a heritic,one would have to be a Catholic first before one could be considered a heritic and that the church accepts the faith and  trinitarian baptism of any group or persons as being in agreement of Catholic teaching and that if said persons are not in a state of mortal sin being in agreement with Catholic teaching can indeed be saved?not because their group says so but because they are in line with the teaching of the church.

Offline AVZ

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #62 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 22:55:59 »
What then do you say other non Catholic believers are?  If "The Church"  is only the established system with the hierarchy that is the CC, what will become of those who Believe on Christ and are saved by His blood sacrifice, who have repented of their sins and received Him as Lord? Who do you say they are?  What do you say they are if they are not Catholic or a part of the CC system?

I'm not the you but traditional RCC teaching would hold them as heretics so... there's that.

More than that. The official teaching is that those people are anathema, accursed.
Simply stated: they will go to hell.

Offline kensington

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #63 on: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 23:02:45 »
Are you Catholic Lexknight?It was my understanding that to be considered a heritic,one would have to be a Catholic first before one could be considered a heritic and that the church accepts the faith and  trinitarian baptism of any group or persons as being in agreement of Catholic teaching and that if said persons are not in a state of mortal sin being in agreement with Catholic teaching can indeed be saved?not because their group says so but because they are in line with the teaching of the church.


Please be clear... they "Can be saved" or they "are Saved?"   I'd like to know how you declare them.  The BIBLE says they are saved.  What say you? 


Lex and AVZ... let's let James answer for himself.  Thanks.  I wanna know what I am dealing with when someone comes on declaring only the CC and it's hierarchy system is "The church"..  such as this. 





« Last Edit: Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 23:09:22 by kensington »

James56

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #64 on: Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 00:02:08 »
Im still in the learning process of the church,but before I decided to follow Catholic teaching,I came to the relization that salvation is not a permanent thing untill we are dead and rejected any form of calvinistic teaching of any kind meaning that I reject any teaching that even suggests that God interferes with human will or that the cross took away the penalty for sin except under the covenant of being obedient to Christ.So I reject the notion that the bible says anyone is unconditionally saved.Even groups that dont teach this still dont draw the lines of when a person is saved and when they are lost its still a grey area even to them,this is what lead me to believe that evangelical christianity is not in line with the truth of scripture when it comes to salvation,sin and death,the truth I believe of salvation is that one must be in an obedient relationship with Christ all of the time,thats calls for conditions,sin has the same results if you have been saved or not,the cross didnt change the the results of sin for anyone,I accepted this as truth before I ever considered the Catholic church and to believe otherwise is to believe a myth.That said basically I know that in the Catholic church there is a traditionalism that goes back before the second vatican council of 1965 which there were some changes made basically and this is my understanding of it which was meant to make it easier for non Catholics to become Catholics,which may or may not have been used and abused by some in which many traditionalists now oppose but still are in obedience to the what was accepted by the council of the church and the Pope.Im not positive but I believe you have to be Catholic before you can be counted as a heritic,those outside the church in ignorance but believe in Christ and have been baptised according to tradition in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost and are not living in a state of mortal sin would be considered to be following the basic conditions of being what is called the state of grace even though they are not Catholic they are following basic Catholic teaching,I could be wrong but I believe that this was one of the results of the second vatican council of the 1960sCatholica or other Catholics here may be able to give more insight into this and I welcome any correction from other Catholics.

Offline AVZ

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #65 on: Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 04:16:05 »
Im still in the learning process of the church,but before I decided to follow Catholic teaching,I came to the relization that salvation is not a permanent thing untill we are dead and rejected any form of calvinistic teaching of any kind meaning that I reject any teaching that even suggests that God interferes with human will or that the cross took away the penalty for sin except under the covenant of being obedient to Christ.So I reject the notion that the bible says anyone is unconditionally saved.Even groups that dont teach this still dont draw the lines of when a person is saved and when they are lost its still a grey area even to them,this is what lead me to believe that evangelical christianity is not in line with the truth of scripture when it comes to salvation,sin and death,the truth I believe of salvation is that one must be in an obedient relationship with Christ all of the time,thats calls for conditions,sin has the same results if you have been saved or not,the cross didnt change the the results of sin for anyone,I accepted this as truth before I ever considered the Catholic church and to believe otherwise is to believe a myth.That said basically I know that in the Catholic church there is a traditionalism that goes back before the second vatican council of 1965 which there were some changes made basically and this is my understanding of it which was meant to make it easier for non Catholics to become Catholics,which may or may not have been used and abused by some in which many traditionalists now oppose but still are in obedience to the what was accepted by the council of the church and the Pope.Im not positive but I believe you have to be Catholic before you can be counted as a heritic,those outside the church in ignorance but believe in Christ and have been baptised according to tradition in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost and are not living in a state of mortal sin would be considered to be following the basic conditions of being what is called the state of grace even though they are not Catholic they are following basic Catholic teaching,I could be wrong but I believe that this was one of the results of the second vatican council of the 1960sCatholica or other Catholics here may be able to give more insight into this and I welcome any correction from other Catholics.

Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441):

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."



Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302):

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."


Seems clear to me.
« Last Edit: Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 04:19:54 by AVZ »

His Kid

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #66 on: Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 07:40:05 »
The organization are those attending the church too,to say different is a fabrication I believe.Its clear you are against the Catholic church for whatever personal reason that you have and to substantiate it these fabrications are a must but it doesnt make it a reality,it is your own personal reality.You should know that the church is not made up of what people believe personally about Christ and the gospel,the truth is a fact of reality and is not dependent upon the personal beliefs of individuals.The hierarchy was established in the begining and was a done deal whether we like it or not to me this is what really makes sense.Personally I would not have chosen the Catholic church but I had to be honest with myself and God,I needed to know the truth,aside from all the things people that are against the church dont like,I had to come to terms that morally no other church has the foundation that the church has as far as teaching on sin and death and salvation that if anyone is honest with the scriptures will see lines up,the soul that sins he shall die,this is the truth I had to come to terms with and dispite anything else,this is what tells me that the Catholic church is the church,simply because it has maintained the truth of sin and death,that every other group lost as a result of Luthers false teachings and to me these are a worse thing than anything that the Catholic church is accused of. ::shrug::

No, the parishioners are not part of the RCC 'organization'. The parishioners are the subjects. Parishioners are not in control of the organization, only those who 'work for it'.

His Kid

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #67 on: Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 07:41:18 »
Are you Catholic Lexknight?It was my understanding that to be considered a heritic,one would have to be a Catholic first before one could be considered a heritic and that the church accepts the faith and  trinitarian baptism of any group or persons as being in agreement of Catholic teaching and that if said persons are not in a state of mortal sin being in agreement with Catholic teaching can indeed be saved?not because their group says so but because they are in line with the teaching of the church.

It is hilarious that the only people who the RCC considers heretic and those who know the truth about the RCC and then reject it. They are usually born-again Christians, the true church.

His Kid

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #68 on: Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 07:43:08 »
Im still in the learning process of the church,but before I decided to follow Catholic teaching,I came to the relization that salvation is not a permanent thing untill we are dead and rejected any form of calvinistic teaching of any kind meaning that I reject any teaching that even suggests that God interferes with human will or that the cross took away the penalty for sin except under the covenant of being obedient to Christ.So I reject the notion that the bible says anyone is unconditionally saved.Even groups that dont teach this still dont draw the lines of when a person is saved and when they are lost its still a grey area even to them,this is what lead me to believe that evangelical christianity is not in line with the truth of scripture when it comes to salvation,sin and death,the truth I believe of salvation is that one must be in an obedient relationship with Christ all of the time,thats calls for conditions,sin has the same results if you have been saved or not,the cross didnt change the the results of sin for anyone,I accepted this as truth before I ever considered the Catholic church and to believe otherwise is to believe a myth.That said basically I know that in the Catholic church there is a traditionalism that goes back before the second vatican council of 1965 which there were some changes made basically and this is my understanding of it which was meant to make it easier for non Catholics to become Catholics,which may or may not have been used and abused by some in which many traditionalists now oppose but still are in obedience to the what was accepted by the council of the church and the Pope.Im not positive but I believe you have to be Catholic before you can be counted as a heritic,those outside the church in ignorance but believe in Christ and have been baptised according to tradition in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost and are not living in a state of mortal sin would be considered to be following the basic conditions of being what is called the state of grace even though they are not Catholic they are following basic Catholic teaching,I could be wrong but I believe that this was one of the results of the second vatican council of the 1960sCatholica or other Catholics here may be able to give more insight into this and I welcome any correction from other Catholics.

Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441):

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."



Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302):

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."


Seems clear to me.

I believe the Vatican has since changed their minds. Every path leads to God except the narrow one.

His Kid

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Re: no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures
« Reply #69 on: Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 07:53:46 »
Im still in the learning process of the church,but before I decided to follow Catholic teaching,I came to the relization that salvation is not a permanent thing untill we are dead and rejected any form of calvinistic teaching of any kind meaning that I reject any teaching that even suggests that God interferes with human will or that the cross took away the penalty for sin except under the covenant of being obedient to Christ.So I reject the notion that the bible says anyone is unconditionally saved.Even groups that dont teach this still dont draw the lines of when a person is saved and when they are lost its still a grey area even to them,this is what lead me to believe that evangelical christianity is not in line with the truth of scripture when it comes to salvation,sin and death,the truth I believe of salvation is that one must be in an obedient relationship with Christ all of the time,thats calls for conditions,sin has the same results if you have been saved or not,the cross didnt change the the results of sin for anyone,I accepted this as truth before I ever considered the Catholic church and to believe otherwise is to believe a myth.That said basically I know that in the Catholic church there is a traditionalism that goes back before the second vatican council of 1965 which there were some changes made basically and this is my understanding of it which was meant to make it easier for non Catholics to become Catholics,which may or may not have been used and abused by some in which many traditionalists now oppose but still are in obedience to the what was accepted by the council of the church and the Pope.Im not positive but I believe you have to be Catholic before you can be counted as a heritic,those outside the church in ignorance but believe in Christ and have been baptised according to tradition in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost and are not living in a state of mortal sin would be considered to be following the basic conditions of being what is called the state of grace even though they are not Catholic they are following basic Catholic teaching,I could be wrong but I believe that this was one of the results of the second vatican council of the 1960sCatholica or other Catholics here may be able to give more insight into this and I welcome any correction from other Catholics.

James,
I'm going to give you the same warning I have given other Catholics. When the Vatican begins to openly discuss contact with alien beings, beware of this. This will be the beginning of the great deception. Remember.. and when that happens it will be crucial that you make a decision to believe the Vatican and the Great Deception or to turn to the truth.