Papacy - right or wrong?

[stevehut]

A problem for anyone who believes that Peter is the "rock" upon which the church is built:

1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

In reading the Matthew text, it seems strange to me that Jesus would talk to Peter, and then in mid-sentence shift to talking about him as if he's not there.

My own study of the Scripture, from many angles, has led me to believe that the "Rock" has to do with what Peter just said: "You are the Christ."  Up until this time, no one knew this.  Just imagine if Jesus had died before anyone figured out that he was the Messiah.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Why did Jesus change Simon's name to Rock?

Actually, Petros means "pebble." 

Not sure if this is a joke. but in Greek pebble = votsalo; petra (or vrahos) = rock. Since I'm a native Greek speaker, I'm pretty sure about this

Modern Greek is about as similar to ancient Greek as modern Italian is to ancient Latin.

I am sure it is an advantage to you that you speak it, some things remaining the same, but the two are not the same languages.

Jarrod

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Why did Jesus change Simon's name to Rock?

Actually, Petros means "pebble." 

The book of Matthew wasn't originally written in Greek, nor did Jesus speak Greek.  We see from other places something that makes more sense, where Peter's real name, Aramaic "Kepha" is transliterated "Cephas".  In its original language, Matthew 16:18 reads "You are Kepha and upon this Kepha I build my Church."  Kepha means Rock.  The Greek translators could not call Peter "petra" because that name is feminine, so instead they made his name Masculine, but something is lost in the translation.

Good argument.  Some things to pick on though:

1) Whether Matthew was originally written in Hebrew or Greek is a matter of conjecture.  The church fathers from the 3rd and 4th centuries couldn't agree on this point, so I find it doubtful that we know better than they.

2) If Jesus grew up in Egypt and Galilee, then He probably spoke Greek, as it was the more common language in both places.  He undoubtedly spoke Aramaic as well, the Bible attesting to it with notes from the original authors in several places, and it also attests He was able to read Hebrew (though it was a dead language used only by scholars in His day and time).

3) My lexicon of Syriac (Jennings) indicates that the word used in this verse means "a stone, a piece of a (larger rock)."  It also indicates that the Syriac word is (also) a feminine ending, so the problem of gender between the words remains in this language.

In short, all of the same issues remain, you've just changed the language we're arguing in/about.

Jarrod

[Catholica]

Why did Jesus change Simon's name to Rock?

Actually, Petros means "pebble." 

The book of Matthew wasn't originally written in Greek, nor did Jesus speak Greek.  We see from other places something that makes more sense, where Peter's real name, Aramaic "Kepha" is transliterated "Cephas".  In its original language, Matthew 16:18 reads "You are Kepha and upon this Kepha I build my Church."  Kepha means Rock.  The Greek translators could not call Peter "petra" because that name is feminine, so instead they made his name Masculine, but something is lost in the translation.

Good argument.  Some things to pick on though:

1) Whether Matthew was originally written in Hebrew or Greek is a matter of conjecture.  The church fathers from the 3rd and 4th centuries couldn't agree on this point, so I find it doubtful that we know better than they.

2) If Jesus grew up in Egypt and Galilee, then He probably spoke Greek, as it was the more common language in both places.  He undoubtedly spoke Aramaic as well, the Bible attesting to it with notes from the original authors in several places, and it also attests He was able to read Hebrew (though it was a dead language used only by scholars in His day and time).

3) My lexicon of Syriac (Jennings) indicates that the word used in this verse means "a stone, a piece of a (larger rock)."  It also indicates that the Syriac word is (also) a feminine ending, so the problem of gender between the words remains in this language.

In short, all of the same issues remain, you've just changed the language we're arguing in/about.

Jarrod

Ok, but Peter is referred to as Cephas, and how did he get that name?  The simple answer is that Jesus named him Kepha.  And Syriac is not the same as Aramaic.  In Aramaic words did not have gender.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Ok, but Peter is referred to as Cephas, and how did he get that name?  The simple answer is that Jesus named him Kepha.  And Syriac is not the same as Aramaic.  In Aramaic words did not have gender.

Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic, as far as I know.

Also, who told you Aramaic words don't have gender?  Semitic languages don't have a strict morphology for gender like Greek words, but gender is inherent in many/most words.  Suffices -H and -IT feminize otherwise "male" words, for instance.

EDIT: I assumed you knew that the text you quoted from "...Kepha and upon this Kepha..." is from the Peshitta, an ancient manuscript written in Syriac.

Jarrod

[Catholica]

Ok, but Peter is referred to as Cephas, and how did he get that name?  The simple answer is that Jesus named him Kepha.  And Syriac is not the same as Aramaic.  In Aramaic words did not have gender.

Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic, as far as I know.

Also, who told you Aramaic words don't have gender?  Semitic languages don't have a strict morphology for gender like Greek words, but gender is inherent in many/most words.  Suffices -H and -IT feminize otherwise "male" words, for instance.

EDIT: I assumed you knew that the text you quoted from "...Kepha and upon this Kepha..." is from the Peshitta, an ancient manuscript written in Syriac.

Jarrod

Hi Jarrod, you are right, I stand corrected.  I learned this from somewhere and it stuck in my head, under further inspection, you are right, Aramaic words don't have as many gender possibilities as Greek, but they still have gender.  Either way, we know that the name given to Peter was Kepha, as evidenced especially in John 1:42 (transliterated to Greek, Cephas) which means "massive stone" and not "little pebble" as some like to portray Jesus as saying.

Thanks for your charitable response and correction.  I hate when I say something that isn't true.

[Debbie_55]

I have never heard that interpretation before Debbie. Literally build his church on the rock they were standing on?

May I explain???  "upon this rock"--Blessed are you Simon, for this was not revealed to you by man, but my Father in heaven. He was telling Peter his foundation was secure having been shown who the Son was by the Father

...Luke 10:22,23

Luke 6:48 Jesus is the rock!

Not on the literal rock they were standing on, but of what the foundation of the rock represented as Peter knew who Jesus was as Messiah as Gods Spirit showed this to him. Upon this foundation, not the literal rock, but the foundation of Gods Spirit in us are we to preach against the gates of Hell or against the evil one (Satan) that is in the world.

My question is why do some of you capitalize the word rock as Peter the Rock as it is not capitalized in scripture as when you capitalize it then it becomes a definition of character or makes it look like Peter is the rock and not the literal rock they were standing on?

[marc]

I haven't read this thread, but I want to make a guess about the contents. Catholics say the papacy is right and protestants say it's wrong. Am I right? What do I win?

[The Great Baptizmo]

I haven't read this thread, but I want to make a guess about the contents. Catholics say the papacy is right and protestants say it's wrong. Am I right? What do I win?

The Great Baptizmo bows to Jesus Christ and not the papacy.   The Great Baptizmo says forbidding marriage among clergy is clearly a doctrine of demons.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Hi Jarrod, you are right, I stand corrected.  I learned this from somewhere and it stuck in my head, under further inspection, you are right, Aramaic words don't have as many gender possibilities as Greek, but they still have gender.  Either way, we know that the name given to Peter was Kepha, as evidenced especially in John 1:42 (transliterated to Greek, Cephas) which means "massive stone" and not "little pebble" as some like to portray Jesus as saying.

Thanks for your charitable response and correction.  I hate when I say something that isn't true.

No worries, we all do that from time to time.  It bothers me when I do that, too.  And good for you for admitting it and moving forward.  That shows character.

Anyway, "Kepha" isn't a boulder, and it's not a pebble either.  Kepha is just "stone."  The word actually refers to the hardness of the material, with no inference about the size, whether gargantuan or tiny.

As for how Peter got the name, the John 1 seems to indicate that Jesus had nicknamed him that upon their first meeting.  Apparently, Peter was kind of a hardass - if you'll forgive the expression, I think that best communicates what the nickname means.

Jarrod

[Selene]

The Great Baptizmo bows to Jesus Christ and not the papacy.   The Great Baptizmo says forbidding marriage among clergy is clearly a doctrine of demons.

How is it a doctrine of demons?  Explain.

[The Great Baptizmo]

The Great Baptizmo bows to Jesus Christ and not the papacy.   The Great Baptizmo says forbidding marriage among clergy is clearly a doctrine of demons.

How is it a doctrine of demons?  Explain.

God's Word says so.

1 Tim 4

 1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,  2by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,  3men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

[Angelos]

The Great Baptizmo bows to Jesus Christ and not the papacy.   The Great Baptizmo says forbidding marriage among clergy is clearly a doctrine of demons.

How is it a doctrine of demons?  Explain.

God's Word says so.

1 Tim 4

 1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,  2by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,  3men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

Actually Eastern Catholic priests can and do get married. Not being married is not a Catholic dogma for priests. There are no Catholics who forbid marriage. Being a Roman Catholic priest is a choice. A priest can quit being a priest and get married or he can choose to be a priest and not get married. Same thing with being a monk.

[Selene]

The Great Baptizmo bows to Jesus Christ and not the papacy.   The Great Baptizmo says forbidding marriage among clergy is clearly a doctrine of demons.

How is it a doctrine of demons?  Explain.

God's Word says so.

1 Tim 4

 1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,  2by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,  3men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

As Angelos pointed out, the Catholic Church does not and never forbid marriage.  If a person wants to be a priest, he already understands that he will not marry.   In 1 Corinthians 7:8, St. Paul says that it is good to be single.  When St. Paul says this, is he forbidding marriage? 

[Jaime]

Why will he not marry, if not forbidden to by the church?

In the verse you quoted, the next verse says it is better though to marry than to burn with desire, as may have been the case with quite a few unmarried priests over the years.