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Author Topic: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY  (Read 443 times)

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KiwiChristian

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PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 20:54:54 »
PAPAL INFALLIBILITY (declared in 1870 AD).

Definition: When a pope is speaking in his official position on any issue of faith or morals, he is speaking infallibly, meaning without error.

Answer: The apostles never regarded any man to be infallible. Only the Word of God is regarded as without error.

If Peter was pope, which the Bible says he was not, then he made mistakes as in Galatians 2:11-14 when he was deceived by Judaizers. "But when Peter came to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."

The following events from history show the error of papal infallibility.

1. Pope John XII, in the "Liber Pontificalis," the Catholic publication discussing the lives of the popes, states that "He spent his entire life in adultery."

2. Popes Innocent III, Gregory XI, Clement IV, Hadrian VI, and Paul IV all disagreed with papal infallibility.

3. Pope Stephen VI (896) had the dead pope Formosus (891-6) tried, questioned, fingers hacked off, dragged through Rome and thrown into the Tiber river.

4. Pope Hadrian II (867) declared civil marriage to be valid, but Pope Pius VII (1800-23) declared it to be invalid.

5. Pope Eugene IV (1431) had Joan of Arc burned alive as a witch, but later Pope Benedict IV in 1919 declared her to be a saint.

6. Pope Pius XI in 1929 endorsed Fascism and called Mussolini "a man sent by God." However, before World War II, he warned people against Mussolini.

7. The Vatican advised the German Catholic Party to vote for Nazi candidates. In 1933, the Vatican and Hitler signed a concordat, where the Catholic church swore allegiance to the Nazi government. Later on Pope Pius XI condemned Hitler.


How can a supposedly infallible man make so many errors of judgment, and even contradict other so-called infallible popes?

Surely this disproves papal infallibility to any honest, open minded
person.

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PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 20:54:54 »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #1 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 22:11:48 »
PAPAL INFALLIBILITY (declared in 1870 AD).

Definition: When a pope is speaking in his official position on any issue of faith or morals, he is speaking infallibly, meaning without error.

Answer: The apostles never regarded any man to be infallible. Only the Word of God is regarded as without error.

If Peter was pope, which the Bible says he was not, then he made mistakes as in Galatians 2:11-14 when he was deceived by Judaizers. "But when Peter came to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."

The following events from history show the error of papal infallibility.

1. Pope John XII, in the "Liber Pontificalis," the Catholic publication discussing the lives of the popes, states that "He spent his entire life in adultery."

2. Popes Innocent III, Gregory XI, Clement IV, Hadrian VI, and Paul IV all disagreed with papal infallibility.

3. Pope Stephen VI (896) had the dead pope Formosus (891-6) tried, questioned, fingers hacked off, dragged through Rome and thrown into the Tiber river.

4. Pope Hadrian II (867) declared civil marriage to be valid, but Pope Pius VII (1800-23) declared it to be invalid.

5. Pope Eugene IV (1431) had Joan of Arc burned alive as a witch, but later Pope Benedict IV in 1919 declared her to be a saint.

6. Pope Pius XI in 1929 endorsed Fascism and called Mussolini "a man sent by God." However, before World War II, he warned people against Mussolini.

7. The Vatican advised the German Catholic Party to vote for Nazi candidates. In 1933, the Vatican and Hitler signed a concordat, where the Catholic church swore allegiance to the Nazi government. Later on Pope Pius XI condemned Hitler.


How can a supposedly infallible man make so many errors of judgment, and even contradict other so-called infallible popes?

Surely this disproves papal infallibility to any honest, open minded
person.

No it doesn't. The Pope does not just act alone, he has the other Bishops of the Church working right alongside him and most of the things you quoted had nothing to do with what was meant by the term "faith and morals". Take our current Pope Francis, most of what he has been reported as saying is not binding on the Church as a whole, he has been speaking his own words and for himself, not one iota of Church teaching has changed.

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #1 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 22:11:48 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #2 on: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 01:21:39 »
No it doesn't. The Pope does not just act alone, he has the other Bishops of the Church working right alongside him and most of the things you quoted had nothing to do with what was meant by the term "faith and morals". Take our current Pope Francis, most of what he has been reported as saying is not binding on the Church as a whole, he has been speaking his own words and for himself, not one iota of Church teaching has changed.

Actually, Papal Infallibility was decided by vote.
On 18 July 1870  a vote was taken with 433 votes in favor of Papal Infallibility and 2 against.

The outcome of this vote shows us that the Pope could never be declared infallible, because the outcome of the vote itself shows us that at least some of the participants were fallible.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #3 on: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 04:30:33 »
Actually, Papal Infallibility was decided by vote.
On 18 July 1870  a vote was taken with 433 votes in favor of Papal Infallibility and 2 against.

The outcome of this vote shows us that the Pope could never be declared infallible, because the outcome of the vote itself shows us that at least some of the participants were fallible.

Since we are on the the subject of infallibility, are you (or your Christian sect) fallible or infallible when it comes to interpreting the Holy Scriptures? If you say yes to the former and no to the latter, then there is no reason for anyone to listen to you regarding scriptural interpretation.

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #3 on: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 04:30:33 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #4 on: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 05:02:37 »
Since we are on the the subject of infallibility, are you (or your Christian sect) fallible or infallible when it comes to interpreting the Holy Scriptures? If you say yes to the former and no to the latter, then there is no reason for anyone to listen to you regarding scriptural interpretation.

Hmmm, this makes for an interesting debate.
You are correct, we do consider ourselves fallible.

However, my return questions would be:

a) Does saying or voting that you are infallible, make you infallible?
b) How can an obviously fallible group of people agree that something is infallible?

Then why would we listen to the interpretations by the Pope, who only claims to be infallible because a group of fallible people allow him to say so?


PS: Yes I know the Pope is not intrinsically infallible, he only claims this when speaking ex Cathedra.

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #4 on: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 05:02:37 »



Offline chosenone

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #5 on: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 05:13:10 »
I just don't get why anyone could possibly think that any human is infallible. The Bible says that we ALL fall short and that if anyone claims to be with out sin he deceives himself.  The pope has said many things that aren't Biblical. He is just a fallible man chosen by other fallible men.

KiwiChristian

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #6 on: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 21:58:00 »

Then why would we listen to the interpretations by the Pope, who only claims to be infallible because a group of fallible people allow him to say so?

Yes, was the criteria set down for infallibility by the council itself infallibly defined? :)

PS: Yes I know the Pope is not intrinsically infallible, he only claims this when speaking ex Cathedra.

yes, he has only done that twice or maybe 3 times.

All 2 or 3 "infallible" teachings can be refuted with the Word of God! LOL!

KiwiChristian

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #7 on: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 22:00:02 »
Since we are on the the subject of infallibility, are you (or your Christian sect) fallible or infallible when it comes to interpreting the Holy Scriptures? If you say yes to the former and no to the latter, then there is no reason for anyone to listen to you regarding scriptural interpretation.

Great attempt at diversion.

You assume 1) Christianity has "sects" ( or denomination i think you mean and 2) I am a member of a "sect".

I would turn the question back on YOU and say how many Biblical verses as the pope officially defined?

The rcc has officially interpreted 0.01% of the Bible ! LOL!

Offline Open Heart

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #8 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 04:02:50 »
Great attempt at diversion.

You assume 1) Christianity has "sects" ( or denomination i think you mean and 2) I am a member of a "sect".

I would turn the question back on YOU and say how many Biblical verses as the pope officially defined?

The rcc has officially interpreted 0.01% of the Bible ! LOL!
Most of the Bible is pretty obvious at face value.  I mean, how many different ways can you interpret "And Jesus went unto Galilee." LOL

The Catholic Church DOES get involved when interpretation gets iffy, when different interpretations cause strife within the church.  For example, with regards to the Calvinist/Arminian debate, the Catholic Church had this settled ages before, saying that we are both predestined AND have free will, that Christ died for all, but only a few are the elect.

KiwiChristian

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #9 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 18:18:57 »
Most of the Bible is pretty obvious at face value.  I mean, how many different ways can you interpret "And Jesus went unto Galilee." LOL

The Catholic Church DOES get involved when interpretation gets iffy, when different interpretations cause strife within the church.  For example, with regards to the Calvinist/Arminian debate, the Catholic Church had this settled ages before, saying that we are both predestined AND have free will, that Christ died for all, but only a few are the elect.

Thank you for the polite and friendly reply, my friend.

I appreciate it.

The point of the 0.01% statement is many catholics will play the "oh, thats just your interpretation" when the Bible at face value contradicts their theology.

But, since the catholic organisation has NOT officially interpreted that passage it becomes a case of hypocrisy as if it IS just MY interpretation than their interpretation is just that. THEIR interpretation.

 ::juggle::

Offline winsome

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #10 on: Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 14:53:06 »

I would turn the question back on YOU and say how many Biblical verses as the pope officially defined?

The rcc has officially interpreted 0.01% of the Bible ! LOL!

Great attempt at diversion! LOL!

Offline winsome

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #11 on: Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 14:54:40 »
yes, he has only done that twice or maybe 3 times.

All 2 or 3 "infallible" teachings can be refuted with the Word of God! LOL!

So says the infallible KiwiChristian! LOL!

Offline winsome

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #12 on: Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 15:04:18 »

If Peter was pope, which the Bible says he was not,

Where does the Bible say that?

Offline Ladonia

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #13 on: Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 15:29:52 »
So says the infallible KiwiChristian! LOL!

Our separated brethren claim that they say a prayer to the Holy Spirit when they read the Scriptures, and after reading them in that manner they turn to us and say "this is what this passage or what that passage actually means". Now, they are saying in essence that the Holy Spirit is telling them what the particular passage means, if this is so, then they would have to say they that they are infallible when interpreting the Scriptures because the Holy Spirit cannot lie. But our friends do not claim this "infallibility", so we must be suspect of what they are telling us what the Scriptures really mean. We can further conclude that: A. They are personally mistaken with what the Holy Spirit is telling them. And: B. They do not pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and are just interpreting the Scriptures all by themselves.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 15:32:53 by Ladonia »

KiwiChristian

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Re: PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
« Reply #14 on: Tue Apr 17, 2018 - 04:10:32 »
Our separated brethren claim that they say a prayer to the Holy Spirit when they read the Scriptures, and after reading them in that manner they turn to us and say "this is what this passage or what that passage actually means". Now, they are saying in essence that the Holy Spirit is telling them what the particular passage means, if this is so, then they would have to say they that they are infallible when interpreting the Scriptures because the Holy Spirit cannot lie. But our friends do not claim this "infallibility",

Who does this? Who told you this?

Are you talking ALL "seperated brethren"?



 so we must be suspect of what they are telling us what the Scriptures really mean.


But YOUR "church" has ONLY interpreted 0.01% of the Bible!