Author Topic: Passover vs Eucharist  (Read 167 times)

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Offline NyawehNyoh

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Passover vs Eucharist
« on: Sat May 02, 2020 - 21:24:40 »
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The passage below is deliberately misquoted.

"The supper shall be a sign for you, in the houses where you are; and when I see you eating, I will pass over you, and no plague shall fall upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt." (Ex 12:13)

No, that's not right. The angel of death didn't look inside their houses to see whether people were eating the lamb from whence the blood came to mark the door posts of their homes. The angel looked for only one thing, and one thing only: the blood itself.

"The blood shall be a sign for you, upon the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague shall fall upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt."

The lesson is that the supper had no power to protect the people from losing their eldest sons that night. The table in fact was, and is, strictly commemorative.

"This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to The Lord; throughout your generations you shall observe it as an ordinance for ever." (Ex 12:14)

Another lesson is that the bloody part of the first passover's procedure isn't oft repeated. No, it was for their sons' protection just that one night in Egypt, and no other; which is the very reason I insist that the original passover is obsolete because blood on door posts ceased protecting Israel's eldest sons after that, viz: the original passover was time-sensitive, i.e. it provided the Jews a narrow window of opportunity that if missed, didn't offer a second. In other words; good intentions were to no avail. Had the blood not been where and when required; it would've been just too bad.

Another lesson is that the Jews didn't include the lamb's blood in their meal that night. Instead of eating the blood, they drained it from the animal and used it to mark their door posts. That was in compliance with the post-Flood law of God that prohibits using animal blood for food.

"Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; and as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood." (Gen 9:3-4)


NOTE: That passage probably shouldn't be appropriated to prove it's wrong to eat human blood. It's clearly limited to animal blood. (cf. Lev 7:26-27)
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« Last Edit: Mon May 04, 2020 - 13:45:37 by NyawehNyoh »

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Passover vs Eucharist
« on: Sat May 02, 2020 - 21:24:40 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Passover vs Eucharist
« Reply #1 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 09:32:43 »
This has nothing  specifically to do with Catholicism.
Why do you keep cluttering up the Catholic forum with such threads?
« Last Edit: Sun May 03, 2020 - 09:35:14 by winsome »

Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: Passover vs Eucharist
« Reply #2 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 12:15:09 »
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1Cor 5:7 . . Christ, our passover, has been sacrificed.

New Testament communion services-- per Luke 22:19-20 and 1Cor 11:23-26 --commemorate Christianity's passover just as the Old Testament service commemorates the Jews' passover.

The word "passover" means, in a nutshell, to exempt; defined by Webster's as: to free or release from a liability or a requirement to which others are subject.

Well; the blood of the second passover lamb serves to exempt Christ's followers from death depicted at Rev 20:11-15 in a manner similar to how the blood of the first passover lamb served to exempt the Jews' eldest sons from death depicted at Ex 12:1-29.

1Pet 1:18-19 . . For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

The Greek word translated "precious" means, among other things, valuable.

Many of the Christians that I encounter on internet forums somehow fail to appreciate just how valuable their passover lamb's blood really is. The protection offered by the Jews' passover lamb was very limited-- just one night, and one night only --whereas the protection offered by the blood of Christianity's passover lamb is endless.

Rev 12:10-11 . .  And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb
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« Last Edit: Tue May 05, 2020 - 11:51:13 by NyawehNyoh »

Offline winsome

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Re: Passover vs Eucharist
« Reply #3 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 15:32:57 »
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1Cor 5:7 . . Christ, our passover, has been sacrificed.

Christian communion services, as per Luke 22:19-20, and 1Cor 11:23-26, commemorate Christ's passover just as the Old Testament service commemorates Jehovah's passover.

The word "passover" means, in a nutshell, to exempt.

Well; the first lamb's blood did for Jehovah's followers pretty much the same as what Christ's blood did for his followers; at least that's what the apostle Peter said.

1Pet 1:18-19 . . For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

The Jews overcame death by means of their lamb's blood, just as Christians overcome the Devil by means of their lamb's blood.

Rev 12:10-11 . .  And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb
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So still nothing specifically Catholic in this.
So why is this in the Catholic Forum?

Offline winsome

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Re: Passover vs Eucharist
« Reply #4 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 15:35:50 »
If this forum is for anything not necessarily Catholic then how about this?

Mary had a little lamb,
   Its fleece was white as snow,
And every where that Mary went
   The lamb was sure to go ;

Nothing Catholic?

Well Catholics honour Mary.

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Re: Passover vs Eucharist
« Reply #4 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 15:35:50 »



Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: Passover vs Eucharist
« Reply #5 on: Mon May 04, 2020 - 13:51:55 »
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Rom 15:4 . . .Whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that by steadfastness and by the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope.

The Eucharist speaks of Christ's passover in the same way that the paschal lamb speaks of the Jews' passover; only Christ's has more to say.

The paschal lamb's death, along with the correct application of its blood, served to protect the Jews' eldest sons; whereas Christ's death, along with the correct application of his blood, serves to protect everybody regardless of age, gender and/or ethnic identity.

John 1:29 . . .The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said: Look, the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Was the paschal lamb's blood successful at protecting the Jews' eldest sons? Yes.

Ex 12:26 . . And when your children say to you: What do you mean by this service? you shall say: It is the sacrifice of The Lord's passover; for He passed over the houses of the people of Israel in Egypt, when he slew the Egyptians but spared our houses.

Now, the million dollar question is: Does Christ's blood have the potential to successfully protect the world? Yes.

1John 2:2 . . He is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

If yes, then why will anybody, Catholic or Protestant, end up dead as per Rev 20:11-15? Well; it's simply because they failed to correctly appropriate Christ's blood. You see, had the Jews only killed their lambs and eaten them that night without applying their lambs' blood to the doorposts as instructed, their eldest sons would've been slain.

Now here's the thing: Christ was slain; that part of his passover is done.

1Cor 5:7 . . Christ, our passover, has been sacrificed.

The Jews were instructed to apply their lambs' blood themselves with a desert plant called hyssop (Ex 12:22). That was convenient because apparently hyssop was not only leafy but common too.

So; what might be a practical way to apply Christ's blood? Well; for some the Eucharist's wine species does the trick; and I guess that's okay if it works for them. But I suggest an even more common method. Why not just go to God in prayer; speak up for yourself and say something like this:

"Father, I would like to appropriate your son's blood to protect myself from the wrath of God."
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« Last Edit: Tue May 05, 2020 - 11:47:54 by NyawehNyoh »

Offline winsome

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Re: Passover vs Eucharist
« Reply #6 on: Tue May 05, 2020 - 05:55:29 »
Our simple children's rhyme may have more to it than you might think.

let's dig below the surface.

"Mary had a little lamb"

Well Mary of Nazareth was the mother of Jesus
Luke 1:26-31 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary . And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.

Luke also tells us that this Mary, the mother of Jesus was in the upper room with the apostles at Pentecost (Acts 1:14)

Now Jesus was described by John the Baptist as the lamb of God.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God

John 1:35-36 The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples;  and he looked at Jesus as he walked, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!”

So Mary did indeed have a lamb

Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: Passover vs Eucharist
« Reply #7 on: Mon May 11, 2020 - 20:42:01 »
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John 6:53 . . Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

When I was growing up a young Catholic boy back in the decade of the 1950s, the congregation was given the bread species at communion, but never the wine. In other words; in accordance with the principles of transubstantiation; we ate Jesus' flesh without his blood.

Well; Jesus' recipe for "life within you" consists of both his flesh and his blood. Therefore, none of my communions counted because they were half-baked, i.e. incomplete. I obtained no life from them: none of them; not a single one. I might just as well have used the host to make a peanut butter and jelly hor d'oeuvre for all the good it did me without the wine species.

It is not only necessary to imbibe the wine species in order to obtain life, but also to attain to Jesus' resurrection.

John 6:53 . . Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

So then, according to the principles of transubstantiation, I was not only deprived eternal life due to being denied Jesus' blood; but my afterlife future was in grave peril too.


POSIT: It isn't necessary to partake of both species. According to 1Cor 11:27, Jesus' body and blood are contained in both; easily discerned by Paul's use of the word "or" in his teachings.

 "So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord."


RESPONSE: Seeing as how Christ is the undisputed lord and master of Christianity; I do believe that whatever he says about his body and blood should trump however we might interpret Paul.

When Christ instituted the Lord's Supper, he had his men partake of both species: the wine and the bread. He did not give them the option to select between the two. No, he ordered them to partake of both species, and to do so while he supervised.

Matt 26:26-28 . .While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said: Take and eat; this is my body. Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying: Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

 Matt 26:26-28 corroborates John 6:53-54 where Jesus testified: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

1Cor 11:23-25 also corroborates John 6:53-54 by assigning each species its own special purpose: the bread for Christ's body, and the wine for his blood.

Therefore I must conclude that when Catholics partake of only one species of the Lord's Supper instead of both; they fail to obtain the life about which he spoke in John 6:53-54; ergo: they not only go away dead, but also in grave danger of missing out the better of the two resurrections spoken of in the book of Revelation.

 They also fail to properly proclaim the Lord's death.

1Cor 11:26 . . For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
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Offline winsome

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Re: Passover vs Eucharist
« Reply #8 on: Tue May 12, 2020 - 03:42:22 »
The the next line is:
"Its fleece was white as snow,"

In other words the lamb was perfect, spotless, without blemish.

And that is what a paschal lamb had to be.
"Your lamb shall be without blemish" (Ex 12:5)

And when Jesus, the lamb of God was brought before Pilate he declared "I find no fault in this man"

Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: Passover vs Eucharist
« Reply #9 on: Wed Jun 03, 2020 - 11:51:29 »
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FAQ: Why is it that the Catholics use processed wafers instead of eating bread from a broken loaf like the Lord instructed?

A: John Q and Jane Doe pew-warmer don't take their orders directly from Christ. His instructions are trickled down to them via the hierarchy, by whom his instructions undergo quite a bit of editing and revision; with a measure of sophistry, rationalizing, and commentary thrown in. In other words: John Q and Jane Doe are sold "fake news" so to speak.

FAQ: But couldn't they read the Bible?

A: John Q and Jane Doe may read the Holy Bible on their own; but must interpret any doctrines they derive from Scripture in accordance with Rome and with Tradition.

"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone." (CCC 85)
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Offline winsome

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Re: Passover vs Eucharist
« Reply #10 on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 10:08:51 »
And the next line.
"And everywhere that Mary went the lamb was sure to go."

True whilst Jesus was a child, except for the episode where he was "lost" in the Temple.
After that episode Luke says:
And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.