Peter the First Pope?

[winsome]

The most important point Im trying to make is that ONLY God can forgive sins,not man.....

Yes, that is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says (para 1441) & references Mk 2:7

However it also points out that Jesus entrusted this ministry of reconciliation to the apostles (2Cor 5:18). He forgives our sins through the ministry of the priest. As the Catechism says "he gives this power [to forgive sins] to men to exercise in his name" (same para).

My second point and just as important is that,Christ is the head of the Church,invisible or otherwise!!

Yes, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that too in para 669.

It’s worth reading the Catechism. It would remove a lot of your misunderstandings

[Ladonia]

Don't think one of my question's has been answered yet,so here it is again..........

When did the popes lose the power that the apostles had?Did they ever have it?

Let's take the power to heal as an example..........


Also,scripture says by their fruits you shall no them

Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

My questions,how could the evil popes in history have authority,and been allowed to guide the Church?

Let me add to the confusion here..... 

The Pope is the visible leader of the universal Church.... but he is (to me) simply the Bishop of Rome ---> 1st among equals.

Remember, there are 21 other Catholic Rites....the Roman Rite is the largest, but still just one of them.

In other words: whatever point you are trying to make by attacking the Bishop of Rome is lost upon me and my Church.

Peace,
S

The most important point Im trying to make is that ONLY God can forgive sins,not man......My second point and just as important is that,Christ is the head of the Church,invisible or otherwise!!

And there isn't a faithful Catholic out there who disagree with you..

[Insight]

If you as a Catholic, don't know is you are saved,how do you know that those who have died that you call saints were?

Guess my question is,how can you know another's fate,yet not know your own?

Can't answer for others, but I know I am saved --- it just means something quite different (in my experience) than what non-Catholics mean by "saved".

So the saints in heaven, are they saved the Catholic meaning or the Protestant meaning?
And what is the difference?

Are you able to provide a Scripture that states the saints are in Heaven?

That's already discussed in another thread,so being that I feel scripture shows that at death the soul returns to the Father,Im going with that.....

In other words you cannot provide a Scripture.

Ok.

[Insight]

Paul does not say a resounding yes.

So he states a resounding No...or maybe you would like to sit on the fence which is always an uncomfortable position for any believer.

The quote you gave does not say that scripture is solely sufficient. It just says it is profitable

Ah...you present a bind.

If the Scriptures are "able" to lead a person to salvation and as you say are "profitable" in their ability to do so; knowing salvation is the sole result of their learning; please explain in what way are they not able and are not profitable - please provide Scripture in your answer.

Moreover the scriptures Paul was referring to were the OT scriptures. And incidentally that were the Greek LXX which included the books that Protestants removed from their Bible.

Incorrect - best you catch up on our discussion on John 10:35 & Psa 82:6 which proves conclusively the OT interprets the New and New Interprets the Old.

They speak to each and if you fail to understand this truth you will never understand the Scriptures.

Paul says “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

[Insight]

Winsome,

I just finished reading your recent reply.

Here is your problem...

My second point and just as important is that,Christ is the head of the Church,invisible or otherwise!!

Winsome replies:

Yes, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that too in para 669.

It’s worth reading the Catechism. It would remove a lot of your misunderstandings

You would prefer to turn people to man-made teachings than the living and abiding Word of God. While you hold onto your catechism's you will never know the true God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel..let alone the God of Jesus Christ.

Maybe you could show us where Paul referred to para 669? or 1079? or 2079? and counting...

Just another one who has been deceived by the wisdom of this world.

Winsome, do you know how hard it is to unlearn all these catechisms? I am teaching an ex catholic and the while they now have a strong grasp of what is true they struggle with removing all these traditions of men which ring around in their mind like Tinnnitus.

Enough said.

[Scott1]

Insight,

Enough said?

Hardly.

You have to realize that you are doing the same thing that you whine about: using your words to "add" to the Scriptures.

No Jesus does not quote the Catechism - but Jesus does not mention you or the Internet.  If one were to use your faulty logic, your commentary on what the bible means to you is simply you offering your "traditions" to winsome and other posters.

Understand I am not saying you are right or wrong - I believe the Scriptures are materially sufficient for salvation - just that your argument is flawed.

If Scripture is sufficient as I think you believe it to be, your commentary is not needed - simply post Scripture quotes that will obviously convince everyone the validity of your premise- right?

[Insight]

Insight,

Understand I am not saying you are right or wrong - I believe the Scriptures are materially sufficient for salvation - just that your argument is flawed.

Why would you prove my argument above?

You said agreeing with 2 Tim 3:15,16:

I believe the Scriptures are materially sufficient for salvation

The Scripture and I agree.

[Insight]

Catholics must defend and uphold Church dogmas and due to so many having no place in the Bible they again must denigrate the written Word because of their own written catechisms.

However,

True Bible Students understand in 2 Tim 3:15,16 the word "inspired" to mean God is the Author; He is not the author of your traditions because they are man made; they bare the mark "made in Rome".

God's Holy Writ is "infallible" to mean that it is true in all its parts.

Now the RCC consults their many paragraphs which only the wise of this world can understand, however long before Catholicism the Psalmist wrote:

"I will never forget Thy precepts; for with them Thou hast quickened me" (or given me new life - Psalm 119:93).

Now that new life is found only in the Word of God and nowhere else.

What you fail to appreciate is the Bible we desire to study is able in it purpose, to purity, it can inspire us, purify our characters, provide peace of mind, and grant us with a glorious hope for the future. In its transforming influence is found, indeed, the stamp of its divinity.

However it requires nothing man-made to bolt on its side for this only causes the Word to stumble as such the RCC will incur the wrath of God for adding to the Scriptures.

Nothing can be added to the Scriptures - at all!

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son" (Heb. 1:1).

"Which things we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth" (1 Cor. 2:13).

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" (2 Pet. 1:21).

"Thy word is truth" (John 17:17).

"Thou testifiedst against them by Thy spirit in the prophets" (Neh. 9:30).

"The things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord (I Corinthians 14:37).

Everything in the Scriptures has been written for our learning...

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.   (Rom 15:4)

Where is that Hope & Faith discovered?

In man made catechisms?  

Insight

[Insight]

If only you understood what this meaneth?


"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have, eternal life; and they are they which testify of me"

Ye err not knowing the Scriptures!

[Insight]

Here is a question...What is the Power of the Bible?

"My word shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isa. 55:11).

"Sanctify them through Thy truth; Thy word is truth (John 17:17).

"Wherewithal shall a man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to Thy word" (Psalm 119:9).

"God hath chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Where is the location of truth? cleansing? sanctification? belief?

Is it not revealed in the word "profitable" and "able"?

Or would you Romanists desire to limit the Words ability to be able to be profitable?

I think yes - like the Pharisees who removed the Keys of Knowledge from the people your spirit has been tested and you are founded wanting in your error.

Enough said.

Ti 3:15  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[Insight]

If Scripture is sufficient as I think you believe it to be, your commentary is not needed - simply post Scripture quotes that will obviously convince everyone the validity of your premise- right?

Good point Scott.

Do you not know the wisdom of the Scriptures is hidden?  Why did the first century disciples search the Scriptures daily?

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.  (Act 17:11)

Why is the Bible the ultimate authority in proving what is true?

Even for Jesus himself?

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.   (Luk 24:27)

And...

Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.  (Joh 1:45)

And after spending 3 1/2 years with the Master the disciples still:

When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.  (Joh 2:22)

Why did they believe the Scripture and Jesus second? (Interesting - what sayest thou?)

You know the irony here is similar to John 2 in that the RCC who claim to believe in a certain Jesus, in truth, know him not!

Therefore likewise he will not commit himself unto you, because he knew all men - and he certainly knows precisely what is in a Romanist.

The hiddens things of Yahweh will remian so until He reveals them and thankfully His Son spoke in parables, that hearing you (RCC) will not hear and seeing you will not see.

So it is here, and so it was during his first coming.

Insight

[Scott1]

Why would you prove my argument above?

To be clear, my opinion does not "prove" anything... same as yours.

But I agree with you --- are you that blinded by hate that you insist on looking for a fight with those who agree with you?  

My point was and is - it is not your conclusion that is flawed but the lack of logic you use when trying to defend said conclusion.

You can defend 2+2=4 all day long --- but if you sound like a fool in doing so, fewer people will see the truth.

One of the reasons it took me until late in life to come to have faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior is people like you ... your pride prevents you from seeing that you follow a set of traditions just like the RC's.

It is not simply a coincidence that EVERY "Bible Believer" (Protestant) comes to the EXACT same objections using the EXACT same arguments about Catholic doctrine --- you do so because you have swallowed a bill of goods ---> swallowed the Protestant TRADITION of "anything Catholic = BAD".  I don't doubt that many of you would object to many of the same things eventually by your independent reading of the Bible, but EVERY ONE --- and using the EXACT same words and quotes???  Not likely... and until Protestants start thinking for themselves and STOP being exactly what they profess to hate (blind followers of traditions) they will never truly be "bible-only" believers.

Just some advice from a fellow Christian.  

[Scott1]

The hiddens things of Yahweh will remian so until He reveals them and thankfully His Son spoke in parables, that hearing you (RCC) will not hear and seeing you will not see.

Please pay attention... I am not a Roman Catholic.

[Insight]

Why would you prove my argument above?

To be clear, my opinion does not "prove" anything... same as yours.

But I agree with you --- are you that blinded by hate that you insist on looking for a fight with those who agree with you?  

My point was and is - it is not your conclusion that is flawed but the lack of logic you use when trying to defend said conclusion.

You can defend 2+2=4 all day long --- but if you sound like a fool in doing so, fewer people will see the truth.

One of the reasons it took me until late in life to come to have faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior is people like you ... your pride prevents you from seeing that you follow a set of traditions just like the RC's.

It is not simply a coincidence that EVERY "Bible Believer" (Protestant) comes to the EXACT same objections using the EXACT same arguments about Catholic doctrine --- you do so because you have swallowed a bill of goods ---> swallowed the Protestant TRADITION of "anything Catholic = BAD".  I don't doubt that many of you would object to many of the same things eventually by your independent reading of the Bible, but EVERY ONE --- and using the EXACT same words and quotes???  Not likely... and until Protestants start thinking for themselves and STOP being exactly what they profess to hate (blind followers of traditions) they will never truly be "bible-only" believers.

Just some advice from a fellow Christian.  

Yahweh does not need me to defend His Word!

It’s gone forth into the hearts of minds of those whom He in His determinate council has guided into all truth.

You may have forgotten this is a Romanist forum made for Roman Catholics to reason among themselves upon their many creeds.

Thy Word is Truth…and nothing else matters in this or any other forum.

If you or others do not know the secret power of the Written Word and you desire not to hear, who is responsible for such a decision?

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

[Insight]

The hiddens things of Yahweh will remian so until He reveals them and thankfully His Son spoke in parables, that hearing you (RCC) will not hear and seeing you will not see.

Please pay attention... I am not a Roman Catholic.

I know.

Whether Protestant or Romanist the lessons remain the same.

For one minute you dont believe Protestants have their own doctrines of men?

All will be revealed at his coming.

Insight