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Offline winsome

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Peter’s Profession of Faith
« on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:00:25 »
 Peter’s Profession of Faith
 
In each gospel Peter makes a profession of faith in Christ:
 
Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:16)
 
Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.” (Mk 8:29)
 
And Peter answered, “The Christ of God.” (Lk 9:20)
 
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life” (Jn 6:28)
 
However Matthew’s gospel has many details that are not in the other accounts. These are important so I will take Matthew’s account (Mt 16:13-19)
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
 
But first there are three important points to note:
1. Matthew is a Jew, writing to Jews. His gospel is full of references to the Old Testament to show how Jesus fulfils prophecies. Some are explicit and some are not. But they would have been noticed by his Jewish audience
 
2. The theme of kingdom runs through Matthew’s gospel. Jesus is not just the Messiah but the promised Davidic king. He starts his gospel “The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”
 
It is Matthew who records the visit of the Magi who ask Herod “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the East, and have come to worship him.” (Mt 2:2)
 
3. A painting is not a photograph. By that I meant is photograph is a literal record of something. A painting is an interpretation with the elements in the picture selected and composed to give more information than the bare picture. In the same way the writers of scripture were not just journalists recording an event but they selected the elements they present to give more information than was on the surface. We have to look below that surface and consider each verse carefully.
 
With those points in mind let us go through this passage.
 
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"
Caesarea Philippi is at the far north of Israel, a long way, probably 3 days walking from Capernaum. In Matthew’s gospel this incident is the only one reported at Caesarea Philippi so this exchange seems to have been the main purpose of his visit. We’ll see why later.

Jesus starts obliquely, asking them "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"
Jesus constantly refers to himself as the Son of Man, but only Matthew uses this phrase leading up to Peter’s profession of faith. Matthew is pointing it up as important. Why?

The ‘Son of Man’ recalls Daniel’s prophecy (Dan 7:13-14)
I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
The Son of Man is the promised future Davidic king

This passage in Daniel comes in the middle of Daniels vision of the four beasts and their explanation. Daniel is particularly concerned with the fourth beast “terrible and dreadful and exceedingly strong; and it had great iron teeth”. This fourth beast is Rome.

14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." The apostles give various answers to his question.

15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" A direct question to them. Only one person answers him.

16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Peter who replies and defines who Jesus is, a definition we still use today.

17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. Jesus commends Peter for his answer and blesses him. Note that Peter is the only one to reply and as a direct revelation from the Father.

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church,…..
Now Jesus continues to address Peter and in return defines who Peter is. He is Rock, and furthermore the rock on which Jesus will build his Church.

Now we come back to the point about Caesarea Philippi. In that place where there is a massive cliff face, at the base of which were various temples to pagan gods. One of these was erected by Herod the Great to the Emperor of Rome, Augustus Caesar. (http://www.bible-history.com/biblestudy/caesarea-philippi.html).

Jesus is contrasting these temples, built on rock, to the one he will build on Peter the Rock.

Moreover Caesarea Phillipi, the ancient city of Paneas, was enlarged by Philip the Tetrach renamed Caesarea Philippi to honour the Emperor Tiberius Caesar and his own name of Philip. What Jesus and the apostles were looking at was not just an old pagan shrine, but represented pagan Rome with it’s emperor worship, the fourth beast of Daniel’s prophecy.

Jesus is making a powerful visual statement. It is Rome that his Church will confront and Rome that will be the centre of his Church.
 

 
 
 

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Peter’s Profession of Faith
« on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:00:25 »

Offline skeeter

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #1 on: Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 16:22:43 »
Where do you get your information?

Have you done a study of the use of 'rock' thruout the Bible?

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #1 on: Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 16:22:43 »

Offline kensington

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #2 on: Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 16:44:54 »
But, the same revelation of Who Christ is comes to all believers when they accept Jesus.  We are all the same as Peter, knowing that Jesus is Lord.  We all are the same, no one is high and lifted up onto seats or thrones, or to be adored by the masses. 

The "Rock" that is used to build a foundation is at the bottom. The foundation of the Church is the revelation the Jesus is the Christ, our Lord. That foundation of Him and Him crucified is what has been the foundation of the church since Jesus ascended.  "The Rock" of the church. The bottom stone in the foundation. Keeping it solid.

Even so, Peter being one of the leaders of the early church, He never sat on a chair in Rome wearing white robes in Gold trappings with servants around him daily, being adored by the masses around him. But walked all over spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the revelation that Christ is Lord. He never gave any indication that such a position as the Pope, existed or was even needed in the body of Christ.

 He never had authority over other Apostles, Paul seems to have more authority according to the Word and Paul authored more of the word than He did.  But, they both proclaimed the same revelation, Jesus Christ is Lord. 

The way I see it that like in Saul's time, the people cried out for a King... someone they could see and would tell them what to do. (I'm not sure why) So, God gave them Saul and then David, etc.  And again, the people cried out for a physical King who would come in power and rule over them and tell them what to do.  And they rejected Christ because He did not fulfill that for them, they allowed and participated in crucifying Him.

And then the people who God sent salvation to, through the Apostle's and the spreading of the Word and the revelation that Jesus is Lord the coming King... they cried out in themselves for a King, someone to rule, and tell them what to do.  And they NOT Peter,  created this physical man to do what they just can't seem to let go of.  People seem to need someone who is above them that they can see (As Moses at the Red Sea) and to trust Him, rather than to trust God who they cannot see. 

Nevertheless, this situation that the C. Church has created concerning Peter and the creation of the Pope is hideously distorted from what Jesus or "Kephas" (Peter) (Stone, Rock) would have condoned or even participated in.  Jesus walked in humble circumstances and never was he treated like or accepted any kind of Royalty position.  Peter was not that way either, and infact the opposite.  A leader being a humble man does not justify him being part of the excess this position has created.  EVEN if Jesus called Peter Rock and he meant to use Peter to build the foundation of His church, (Those He redeemed and saved by His Blood), Peter would never have received the adoration and worship the Pope does.  (Please don't try to tell me that it's not worship) I know what worship is. He lives in luxury and pomp and circumstance.  He RARELY preaches the Bible or personally leads anyone to salvation. 

Again, the position of Pope is a great distortion to what Jesus Himself lived and walked out, and what Peter would have participated in. 
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 17:08:33 by kensington »

Offline kensington

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #3 on: Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 17:24:38 »
Also, the C. Church as really missed it on this "infallible" thing.  A man of God is not without error because he sits on any chair.  Or because he is given a title.  The evidence that the position of Pope as came from Peter is false is simple to figure out. 

Would Peter(Kephas)... a man who would be a rock in faith, do anything that many many Popes down your line has done?  Would he have murdered?  Cheated?  Fornicated? and lived in Debauchery? at the times of his leadership that he wasn't sitting on a certain chair giving out interpretations and words?  Would he have participated in incest?  These are not mistakes that a man makes... these are and were unsaved men in a position that only a saved person should have had. 

There have been more men of Satan in that position than any other kind of man.  Power corrupts and that is why Jesus and the Disciples never endorsed that kind of Power in the body of Christ. We are granted with spiritual power from the Holy Spirit so that we can bind and loose, and see people saved. It is not and never has been the kind of Power that humans granted Popes. 

Yes, Peter was part of the foundation, a Rock that Jesus built our church upon, and so were others, Paul and all of the apostles were stones in the foundation. You cannot build any strong building on one stone, you need at least four for the corners and then more placed in strategic places to build the support for the layers to be on.  But, Peter was NEVER what a Pope is.   I will never believe that.  Being a Pope is a man made position. 


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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #3 on: Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 17:24:38 »

Offline doorknocker

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #4 on: Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 17:37:23 »
Also, the C. Church as really missed it on this "infallible" thing.  A man of God is not without error because he sits on any chair.  Or because he is given a title.  The evidence that the position of Pope as came from Peter is false is simple to figure out. 

Would Peter(Kephas)... a man who would be a rock in faith, do anything that many many Popes down your line has done?  Would he have murdered?  Cheated?  Fornicated? and lived in Debauchery? at the times of his leadership that he wasn't sitting on a certain chair giving out interpretations and words?  Would he have participated in incest?  These are not mistakes that a man makes... these are and were unsaved men in a position that only a saved person should have had. 

There have been more men of Satan in that position than any other kind of man.  Power corrupts and that is why Jesus and the Disciples never endorsed that kind of Power in the body of Christ. We are granted with spiritual power from the Holy Spirit so that we can bind and loose, and see people saved. It is not and never has been the kind of Power that humans granted Popes. 

Yes, Peter was part of the foundation, a Rock that Jesus built our church upon, and so were others, Paul and all of the apostles were stones in the foundation. You cannot build any strong building on one stone, you need at least four for the corners and then more placed in strategic places to build the support for the layers to be on.  But, Peter was NEVER what a Pope is.   I will never believe that.  Being a Pope is a man made position.


1 Corinthians 10,  4
For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the
Rock was CHRIST.


unless some different translation say that the Rock was Peter, I will stick with

Christ the Rock.

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #4 on: Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 17:37:23 »



Offline skeeter

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #5 on: Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 17:43:29 »
But, the same revelation of Who Christ is comes to all believers when they accept Jesus.  We are all the same as Peter, knowing that Jesus is Lord.  We all are the same, no one is high and lifted up onto seats or thrones, or to be adored by the masses.

The "Rock" that is used to build a foundation is at the bottom. The foundation of the Church is the revelation the Jesus is the Christ, our Lord. That foundation of Him and Him crucified is what has been the foundation of the church since Jesus ascended.  "The Rock" of the church. The bottom stone in the foundation. Keeping it solid.
This is so true.  And the revelation given by God is totally different than the head knowledge I'd had from my earliest memories (teachings) as a child.  It comes to and thru the heart.  An amazing thing to happen.  If it hadn't happened to me, I wouldn't believe it myself.  I often relate it to someone hearing about what it is like to give birth or seeing it on a video (or in person).  The actual experience of giving birth is far beyond what they could have ever imagined by what they heard or saw prior to it.  It will totally change their life forever and give them a love they never thought was possible.

Jesus addressed this 'one of them over another' thing in the NT too.

 
Even so, Peter being one of the leaders of the early church, He never sat on a chair in Rome wearing white robes in Gold trappings with servants around him daily, being adored by the masses around him. But walked all over spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the revelation that Christ is Lord. He never gave any indication that such a position as the Pope, existed or was even needed in the body of Christ.
no, he didn't - and neither did any of the others.


He never had authority over other Apostles, Paul seems to have more authority according to the Word and Paul authored more of the word than He did.  But, they both proclaimed the same revelation, Jesus Christ is Lord. 
I agree.  If I had to pick an Apostle I wanted to talk to or meet, it'd be Paul.
While Peter spent 3 yrs with Jesus shared with the others,  Paul spent 3 yrs with Him alone - no others shared that time.


The way I see it that like in Saul's time, the people cried out for a King... someone they could see and would tell them what to do. (I'm not sure why) So, God gave them Saul and then David, etc.  And again, the people cried out for a physical King who would come in power and rule over them and tell them what to do.  And they rejected Christ because He did not fulfill that for them, they allowed and participated in crucifying Him.
Didn't they want a king to be like others?
The Jews expected the Messiah to come as a great warrior and king - like David.
Much like many today, the Jews back then didn't pay attention to a lot that was in scripture.



And then the people who God sent salvation to, through the Apostle's and the spreading of the Word and the revelation that Jesus is Lord the coming King... they cried out in themselves for a King, someone to rule, and tell them what to do.  And they NOT Peter,  created this physical man to do what they just can't seem to let go of.  People seem to need someone who is above them that they can see (As Moses at the Red Sea) and to trust Him, rather than to trust God who they cannot see.
The apostles were telling people that the 'kingdom of heaven was at hand' - there Jesus was walking among them, and they didn't see or understand it...  They totally missed the message.

Didn't Jesus say it was better to not see and still believe? (at the Thomas need to 'see' and touch point).

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #6 on: Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 18:28:38 »
It was not Peter himself, but what he said, or what was revealed to him by God, the revelation of Christ.

that no flesh should glory in His presence. -1Cor.1:29


Peter himself was just a man, like everyone else.

But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me.
For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
  -Mat.16:23


And as Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came,
and seeing Peter warming himself, she looked at him and said, “You also were with the Nazarene, Jesus.”

But he denied it, saying, “I neither know nor understand what you mean.” And he went out into the gateway and the rooster crowed.
And the servant girl saw him and began again to say to the bystanders, “This man is one of them.”
But again he denied it. And after a little while the bystanders again said to Peter, “Certainly you are one of them, for you are a Galilean.”

But he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, “I do not know this man of whom you speak.”

And immediately the rooster crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had said to him, “Before the rooster crows twice, you will deny me three times.” And he broke down and wept.
  -Mk.14:66-72


I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' -     
Acts.11:16


Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;

for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
  -Gal. 2:11-14
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 18:39:10 by BornToReign »

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #7 on: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 07:17:49 »
In the OT the word for rock, except when it is used to mean the various compositions of minerals we call rocks, is never, so far as I know, used for anyone other than God.  It is nearly impossible to think that Christ would used it in any other sense.

Offline winsome

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #8 on: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 08:38:30 »
In the OT the word for rock, except when it is used to mean the various compositions of minerals we call rocks, is never, so far as I know, used for anyone other than God.  It is nearly impossible to think that Christ would used it in any other sense.

 Actually it is used of Abraham.
Hearken to me, you who pursue deliverance, you who seek the Lord; look to the rock from which you were hewn, and to the quarry from which you were digged. 2 Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you; for when he was but one I called him, and I blessed him and made him many. (Is 51:1-2)
 
But does that not make it even more remarkable that Jesus himself should rename Simon as Kephas – Rock? (jn 1:42)

 
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 08:54:01 by winsome »

Offline winsome

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #9 on: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 08:52:06 »
Also, the C. Church as really missed it on this "infallible" thing.  A man of God is not without error because he sits on any chair.  Or because he is given a title.  The evidence that the position of Pope as came from Peter is false is simple to figure out. 

Would Peter(Kephas)... a man who would be a rock in faith, do anything that many many Popes down your line has done?  Would he have murdered?  Cheated?  Fornicated? and lived in Debauchery? at the times of his leadership that he wasn't sitting on a certain chair giving out interpretations and words?  Would he have participated in incest?  These are not mistakes that a man makes... these are and were unsaved men in a position that only a saved person should have had. 

There have been more men of Satan in that position than any other kind of man.  Power corrupts and that is why Jesus and the Disciples never endorsed that kind of Power in the body of Christ. We are granted with spiritual power from the Holy Spirit so that we can bind and loose, and see people saved. It is not and never has been the kind of Power that humans granted Popes. 

Yes, Peter was part of the foundation, a Rock that Jesus built our church upon, and so were others, Paul and all of the apostles were stones in the foundation. You cannot build any strong building on one stone, you need at least four for the corners and then more placed in strategic places to build the support for the layers to be on.  But, Peter was NEVER what a Pope is.   I will never believe that.  Being a Pope is a man made position.


1 Corinthians 10,  4
For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the
Rock was CHRIST.

unless some different translation say that the Rock was Peter, I will stick with

Christ the Rock.

 Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Cephas (Jn 1:42)

In the Greek it is KEPHAS which is the Aramic for ROCK - a big one.

Renaming someone is always significant in the Bible.

St. Paul refers to Cephas in 8 places in both his first letter to the Corinthians and in his letter to the Galations. For example:

“and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.”(1Cor 15:5)

“Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Cephas (Gal 1:18)

“and when James and Cephas and John, who were acknowledged pillars” (Gal 2:9)


Peter was known as ROCK


 By giving Peter the name Rock, a name that represents himself, Jesus was indicating that Peter was to be his representative before men.
 
 

Offline winsome

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #10 on: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:10:58 »
It was not Peter himself, but what he said, or what was revealed to him by God, the revelation of Christ.

that no flesh should glory in His presence. -1Cor.1:29


Peter himself was just a man, like everyone else.

But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me.
For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
  -Mat.16:23


And as Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came,
and seeing Peter warming himself, she looked at him and said, “You also were with the Nazarene, Jesus.”

But he denied it, saying, “I neither know nor understand what you mean.” And he went out into the gateway and the rooster crowed.
And the servant girl saw him and began again to say to the bystanders, “This man is one of them.”
But again he denied it. And after a little while the bystanders again said to Peter, “Certainly you are one of them, for you are a Galilean.”

But he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, “I do not know this man of whom you speak.”

And immediately the rooster crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had said to him, “Before the rooster crows twice, you will deny me three times.” And he broke down and wept.
  -Mk.14:66-72


I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' -     
Acts.11:16


Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;

for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
  -Gal. 2:11-14

And do you have a point to make?

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #11 on: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:15:02 »
It was not Peter himself, but what he said, or what was revealed to him by God, the revelation of Christ.

that no flesh should glory in His presence. -1Cor.1:29


Peter himself was just a man, like everyone else.

But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me.
For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
  -Mat.16:23


And as Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came,
and seeing Peter warming himself, she looked at him and said, “You also were with the Nazarene, Jesus.”

But he denied it, saying, “I neither know nor understand what you mean.” And he went out into the gateway and the rooster crowed.
And the servant girl saw him and began again to say to the bystanders, “This man is one of them.”
But again he denied it. And after a little while the bystanders again said to Peter, “Certainly you are one of them, for you are a Galilean.”

But he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, “I do not know this man of whom you speak.”

And immediately the rooster crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had said to him, “Before the rooster crows twice, you will deny me three times.” And he broke down and wept.
  -Mk.14:66-72


I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' -     
Acts.11:16


Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;

for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
  -Gal. 2:11-14

And do you have a point to make?

It was not Peter himself, but what he said, or what was revealed to him by God, the revelation of Christ.

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #12 on: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:27:56 »
 
But, the same revelation of Who Christ is comes to all believers when they accept Jesus.  We are all the same as Peter, knowing that Jesus is Lord.  We all are the same, no one is high and lifted up onto seats or thrones, or to be adored by the masses. 
 
 The "Rock" that is used to build a foundation is at the bottom. The foundation of the Church is the revelation the Jesus is the Christ, our Lord. That foundation of Him and Him crucified is what has been the foundation of the church since Jesus ascended.  "The Rock" of the church. The bottom stone in the foundation. Keeping it solid.
 
 Even so, Peter being one of the leaders of the early church, He never sat on a chair in Rome wearing white robes in Gold trappings with servants around him daily, being adored by the masses around him. But walked all over spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the revelation that Christ is Lord. He never gave any indication that such a position as the Pope, existed or was even needed in the body of Christ.
 
  He never had authority over other Apostles, Paul seems to have more authority according to the Word and Paul authored more of the word than He did.  But, they both proclaimed the same revelation, Jesus Christ is Lord. 
 
 The way I see it that like in Saul's time, the people cried out for a King... someone they could see and would tell them what to do. (I'm not sure why) So, God gave them Saul and then David, etc.  And again, the people cried out for a physical King who would come in power and rule over them and tell them what to do.  And they rejected Christ because He did not fulfill that for them, they allowed and participated in crucifying Him.
 
 And then the people who God sent salvation to, through the Apostle's and the spreading of the Word and the revelation that Jesus is Lord the coming King... they cried out in themselves for a King, someone to rule, and tell them what to do.  And they NOT Peter,  created this physical man to do what they just can't seem to let go of.  People seem to need someone who is above them that they can see (As Moses at the Red Sea) and to trust Him, rather than to trust God who they cannot see. 
 
 Nevertheless, this situation that the C. Church has created concerning Peter and the creation of the Pope is hideously distorted from what Jesus or "Kephas" (Peter) (Stone, Rock) would have condoned or even participated in.  Jesus walked in humble circumstances and never was he treated like or accepted any kind of Royalty position.  Peter was not that way either, and infact the opposite.  A leader being a humble man does not justify him being part of the excess this position has created.  EVEN if Jesus called Peter Rock and he meant to use Peter to build the foundation of His church, (Those He redeemed and saved by His Blood), Peter would never have received the adoration and worship the Pope does.  (Please don't try to tell me that it's not worship) I know what worship is. He lives in luxury and pomp and circumstance.  He RARELY preaches the Bible or personally leads anyone to salvation. 
 
 Again, the position of Pope is a great distortion to what Jesus Himself lived and walked out, and what Peter would have participated in.
 

But, the same revelation of Who Christ is comes to all believers when they accept Jesus.  We are all the same as Peter, knowing that Jesus is Lord.  We all are the same, no one is high and lifted up onto seats or thrones, or to be adored by the masses. 
 
 The "Rock" that is used to build a foundation is at the bottom. The foundation of the Church is the revelation the Jesus is the Christ, our Lord. That foundation of Him and Him crucified is what has been the foundation of the church since Jesus ascended.  "The Rock" of the church. The bottom stone in the foundation. Keeping it solid.
 
 Even so, Peter being one of the leaders of the early church, He never sat on a chair in Rome wearing white robes in Gold trappings with servants around him daily, being adored by the masses around him. But walked all over spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the revelation that Christ is Lord. He never gave any indication that such a position as the Pope, existed or was even needed in the body of Christ.
 
  He never had authority over other Apostles, Paul seems to have more authority according to the Word and Paul authored more of the word than He did.  But, they both proclaimed the same revelation, Jesus Christ is Lord. 
 
 The way I see it that like in Saul's time, the people cried out for a King... someone they could see and would tell them what to do. (I'm not sure why) So, God gave them Saul and then David, etc.  And again, the people cried out for a physical King who would come in power and rule over them and tell them what to do.  And they rejected Christ because He did not fulfill that for them, they allowed and participated in crucifying Him.
 
 And then the people who God sent salvation to, through the Apostle's and the spreading of the Word and the revelation that Jesus is Lord the coming King... they cried out in themselves for a King, someone to rule, and tell them what to do.  And they NOT Peter,  created this physical man to do what they just can't seem to let go of.  People seem to need someone who is above them that they can see (As Moses at the Red Sea) and to trust Him, rather than to trust God who they cannot see. 
 
 Nevertheless, this situation that the C. Church has created concerning Peter and the creation of the Pope is hideously distorted from what Jesus or "Kephas" (Peter) (Stone, Rock) would have condoned or even participated in.  Jesus walked in humble circumstances and never was he treated like or accepted any kind of Royalty position.  Peter was not that way either, and infact the opposite.  A leader being a humble man does not justify him being part of the excess this position has created.  EVEN if Jesus called Peter Rock and he meant to use Peter to build the foundation of His church, (Those He redeemed and saved by His Blood), Peter would never have received the adoration and worship the Pope does.  (Please don't try to tell me that it's not worship) I know what worship is. He lives in luxury and pomp and circumstance.  He RARELY preaches the Bible or personally leads anyone to salvation. 
 
 Again, the position of Pope is a great distortion to what Jesus Himself lived and walked out, and what Peter would have participated in.
 

And which of your comments actually relate to the OP (if any)?
 

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #13 on: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:28:44 »
It was not Peter himself, but what he said, or what was revealed to him by God, the revelation of Christ.

that no flesh should glory in His presence. -1Cor.1:29


Peter himself was just a man, like everyone else.

But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me.
For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
  -Mat.16:23


And as Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came,
and seeing Peter warming himself, she looked at him and said, “You also were with the Nazarene, Jesus.”

But he denied it, saying, “I neither know nor understand what you mean.” And he went out into the gateway and the rooster crowed.
And the servant girl saw him and began again to say to the bystanders, “This man is one of them.”
But again he denied it. And after a little while the bystanders again said to Peter, “Certainly you are one of them, for you are a Galilean.”

But he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, “I do not know this man of whom you speak.”

And immediately the rooster crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had said to him, “Before the rooster crows twice, you will deny me three times.” And he broke down and wept.
  -Mk.14:66-72


I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' -     
Acts.11:16


Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;

for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
  -Gal. 2:11-14

And do you have a point to make?

It was not Peter himself, but what he said, or what was revealed to him by God, the revelation of Christ.

It was Peter himself.

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #14 on: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:31:28 »
It was not Peter himself, but what he said, or what was revealed to him by God, the revelation of Christ.

that no flesh should glory in His presence. -1Cor.1:29


Peter himself was just a man, like everyone else.

But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me.
For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
  -Mat.16:23


And as Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came,
and seeing Peter warming himself, she looked at him and said, “You also were with the Nazarene, Jesus.”

But he denied it, saying, “I neither know nor understand what you mean.” And he went out into the gateway and the rooster crowed.
And the servant girl saw him and began again to say to the bystanders, “This man is one of them.”
But again he denied it. And after a little while the bystanders again said to Peter, “Certainly you are one of them, for you are a Galilean.”

But he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, “I do not know this man of whom you speak.”

And immediately the rooster crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had said to him, “Before the rooster crows twice, you will deny me three times.” And he broke down and wept.
  -Mk.14:66-72


I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' -     
Acts.11:16


Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;

for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
  -Gal. 2:11-14

And do you have a point to make?

It was not Peter himself, but what he said, or what was revealed to him by God, the revelation of Christ.

It was Peter himself.

The Church:

Eph 2:19  So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
Eph 2:20  having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #15 on: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 11:38:29 »
It was not Peter himself, but what he said, or what was revealed to him by God, the revelation of Christ.

that no flesh should glory in His presence. -1Cor.1:29


Peter himself was just a man, like everyone else.

But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me.
For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
  -Mat.16:23


And as Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came,
and seeing Peter warming himself, she looked at him and said, “You also were with the Nazarene, Jesus.”

But he denied it, saying, “I neither know nor understand what you mean.” And he went out into the gateway and the rooster crowed.
And the servant girl saw him and began again to say to the bystanders, “This man is one of them.”
But again he denied it. And after a little while the bystanders again said to Peter, “Certainly you are one of them, for you are a Galilean.”

But he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, “I do not know this man of whom you speak.”

And immediately the rooster crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had said to him, “Before the rooster crows twice, you will deny me three times.” And he broke down and wept.
  -Mk.14:66-72


I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' -     
Acts.11:16


Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;

for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
  -Gal. 2:11-14

And do you have a point to make?

It was not Peter himself, but what he said, or what was revealed to him by God, the revelation of Christ.

It was Peter himself.

The Church:

Eph 2:19  So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
Eph 2:20  having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,


So 4WD, was Peter an apostle?

Is a Church built both upon a foundation AND a cornerstone?

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #16 on: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 13:37:05 »
Catholica,

Do you know what a cornerstone is?  If so, why would you ask that question?

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #17 on: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 13:45:06 »
Catholica,

Do you know what a cornerstone is?  If so, why would you ask that question?

Yes I do. 

So can the church be built both on the apostles as a foundation AND have Jesus as the cornerstone?

Since you don't want to answer, it seems, I'll give you the obvious answer, which is "yes". Peter is an apostle and the Church is built on the apostles with Jesus as the cornerstone.

"I say to you that you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church."

Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #18 on: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 19:43:38 »
Catholica,

Do you know what a cornerstone is?  If so, why would you ask that question?
Yes I do. 

So can the church be built both on the apostles as a foundation AND have Jesus as the cornerstone?

Since you don't want to answer, it seems, I'll give you the obvious answer, which is "yes". Peter is an apostle and the Church is built on the apostles with Jesus as the cornerstone.

"I say to you that you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church."

Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.
only if the pope also agrees with it!

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #19 on: Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 22:48:33 »
In the OT the word for rock, except when it is used to mean the various compositions of minerals we call rocks, is never, so far as I know, used for anyone other than God.  It is nearly impossible to think that Christ would used it in any other sense.

 Actually it is used of Abraham.
Hearken to me, you who pursue deliverance, you who seek the Lord; look to the rock from which you were hewn, and to the quarry from which you were digged. 2 Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you; for when he was but one I called him, and I blessed him and made him many. (Is 51:1-2)
 
But does that not make it even more remarkable that Jesus himself should rename Simon as Kephas – Rock? (jn 1:42)
vs 2 refers to Abraham, not vs 1

'look to the rock from which you were hewn (formed)'

Who formed the people/nation of Israel?

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #20 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 04:47:29 »
In the OT the word for rock, except when it is used to mean the various compositions of minerals we call rocks, is never, so far as I know, used for anyone other than God.  It is nearly impossible to think that Christ would used it in any other sense.


 Actually it is used of Abraham.
Hearken to me, you who pursue deliverance, you who seek the Lord; look to the rock from which you were hewn, and to the quarry from which you were digged. 2 Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you; for when he was but one I called him, and I blessed him and made him many. (Is 51:1-2)
 
But does that not make it even more remarkable that Jesus himself should rename Simon as Kephas – Rock? (jn 1:42)

vs 2 refers to Abraham, not vs 1

'look to the rock from which you were hewn (formed)'

Who formed the people/nation of Israel?


the rock FROM which you were hewn.

It's not who formed them.

The nation of Israel came from Abraham and Sarah.

And you are still avoiding the main point.

It was Jesus who renamed Peter as Rock (Kephas). (Jn 1:42)

 Strong G2786
 Kephas
 Of Chaldee origin (compare [H3710]); the Rock; Cephas (that is, Kepha), surname of Peter:—Cephas.
 
 Cephas
a Syriac surname given by Christ to Simon (John 1:42), meaning "rock." The Greeks translated it by Petros, and the Latins by Petrus.
(Easton’s Bible Dictionary)
 

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #21 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 06:46:13 »
Catholica,

Do you know what a cornerstone is?  If so, why would you ask that question?

Yes I do. 

So can the church be built both on the apostles as a foundation AND have Jesus as the cornerstone?

Since you don't want to answer, it seems, I'll give you the obvious answer, which is "yes". Peter is an apostle and the Church is built on the apostles with Jesus as the cornerstone.

"I say to you that you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church."

Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.

The cornerstone is the guiding stone for the foundation.  It is the critical stone in the foundation.  The foundation is the apostles and Christ.  Christ, not the apostles and not Peter, is the cornerstone.  Peter is just one of the apostles.

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #22 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 08:18:50 »
Catholica,

Do you know what a cornerstone is?  If so, why would you ask that question?

Yes I do. 

So can the church be built both on the apostles as a foundation AND have Jesus as the cornerstone?

Since you don't want to answer, it seems, I'll give you the obvious answer, which is "yes". Peter is an apostle and the Church is built on the apostles with Jesus as the cornerstone.

"I say to you that you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church."

Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.

The cornerstone is the guiding stone for the foundation.  It is the critical stone in the foundation.  The foundation is the apostles and Christ.  Christ, not the apostles and not Peter, is the cornerstone.  Peter is just one of the apostles.

As Catholics we hold that Christ is the cornerstone of the Church built on the foundation of the apostles (including Peter) and the prophets, just like scripture says.

Somehow though, according to Jesus Christ who is God, he said: (mixing English and the Aramaic which is the language that Jesus likely spoke with the apostles):

"I say to you that you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church."

Peter's name was not "Peter" at all, and even "Petros" was a translation.  The Greek transliteration of his name was "Cephas" and we can see that used multiple times in scripture to refer to Peter.

Jesus renamed (exalted) Simon son of John to Kepha, and Kepha in Aramaic means rock.  And regardless of how a person chooses to interpret the size of that rock meant by "Kepha", the plain fact is that Peter (Kepha) is the rock (Kepha) that Jesus said he will build his Church upon.

Of course Jesus is the cornerstone, and of course Peter wasn't going to claim that he was when he wrote the verse that was mentioned above.   How prideful a statement that would be.  The Church is nothing without Christ as the cornerstone.  But that cornerstone then selected, explicitly, Peter, to be the rock upon which His own Church would be built.

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #23 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 08:46:57 »
Catholica,

Do you know what a cornerstone is?  If so, why would you ask that question?

Yes I do. 

So can the church be built both on the apostles as a foundation AND have Jesus as the cornerstone?

Since you don't want to answer, it seems, I'll give you the obvious answer, which is "yes". Peter is an apostle and the Church is built on the apostles with Jesus as the cornerstone.

"I say to you that you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church."

Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.

The cornerstone is the guiding stone for the foundation.  It is the critical stone in the foundation.  The foundation is the apostles and Christ.  Christ, not the apostles and not Peter, is the cornerstone.  Peter is just one of the apostles.

As Catholics we hold that Christ is the cornerstone of the Church built on the foundation of the apostles (including Peter) and the prophets, just like scripture says.

Somehow though, according to Jesus Christ who is God, he said: (mixing English and the Aramaic which is the language that Jesus likely spoke with the apostles):

"I say to you that you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church."

Peter's name was not "Peter" at all, and even "Petros" was a translation.  The Greek transliteration of his name was "Cephas" and we can see that used multiple times in scripture to refer to Peter.

Jesus renamed (exalted) Simon son of John to Kepha, and Kepha in Aramaic means rock.  And regardless of how a person chooses to interpret the size of that rock meant by "Kepha", the plain fact is that Peter (Kepha) is the rock (Kepha) that Jesus said he will build his Church upon.

Of course Jesus is the cornerstone, and of course Peter wasn't going to claim that he was when he wrote the verse that was mentioned above.   How prideful a statement that would be.  The Church is nothing without Christ as the cornerstone.  But that cornerstone then selected, explicitly, Peter, to be the rock upon which His own Church would be built.

Neither Paul nor any of the other apostles, including Peter himself, ever posited Peter as the rock upon which the church was being built.  And in fact, in reading Paul, he would seem to be in stark opposition to that.

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #24 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 09:00:03 »
Catholica,

Do you know what a cornerstone is?  If so, why would you ask that question?

Yes I do. 

So can the church be built both on the apostles as a foundation AND have Jesus as the cornerstone?

Since you don't want to answer, it seems, I'll give you the obvious answer, which is "yes". Peter is an apostle and the Church is built on the apostles with Jesus as the cornerstone.

"I say to you that you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church."

Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.

The cornerstone is the guiding stone for the foundation.  It is the critical stone in the foundation.  The foundation is the apostles and Christ.  Christ, not the apostles and not Peter, is the cornerstone.  Peter is just one of the apostles.

As Catholics we hold that Christ is the cornerstone of the Church built on the foundation of the apostles (including Peter) and the prophets, just like scripture says.

Somehow though, according to Jesus Christ who is God, he said: (mixing English and the Aramaic which is the language that Jesus likely spoke with the apostles):

"I say to you that you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church."

Peter's name was not "Peter" at all, and even "Petros" was a translation.  The Greek transliteration of his name was "Cephas" and we can see that used multiple times in scripture to refer to Peter.

Jesus renamed (exalted) Simon son of John to Kepha, and Kepha in Aramaic means rock.  And regardless of how a person chooses to interpret the size of that rock meant by "Kepha", the plain fact is that Peter (Kepha) is the rock (Kepha) that Jesus said he will build his Church upon.

Of course Jesus is the cornerstone, and of course Peter wasn't going to claim that he was when he wrote the verse that was mentioned above.   How prideful a statement that would be.  The Church is nothing without Christ as the cornerstone.  But that cornerstone then selected, explicitly, Peter, to be the rock upon which His own Church would be built.

Neither Paul nor any of the other apostles, including Peter himself, ever posited Peter as the rock upon which the church was being built.  And in fact, in reading Paul, he would seem to be in stark opposition to that.

We as Catholics believe every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.  That means Jesus. 

You interpret Paul wrongly, Paul was a faithful Catholic.

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #25 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 09:15:23 »
You interpret Paul wrongly, Paul was a faithful Catholic.

 rofl  rofl  rofl

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #26 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 09:22:36 »
We as Catholics believe every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.  That means Jesus. 

You interpret Paul wrongly, Paul was a faithful Catholic.

Are you sure, who was then his Pope? Peter?
So Paul called Peter his "Holy Father"?

But if Paul was not Pope then he was not infallible, so why did you include Paul's letters into the canon?
Shouldn't Peter have approved first?

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #27 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 09:28:44 »
Catholica,

Do you know what a cornerstone is?  If so, why would you ask that question?

Yes I do. 

So can the church be built both on the apostles as a foundation AND have Jesus as the cornerstone?

Since you don't want to answer, it seems, I'll give you the obvious answer, which is "yes". Peter is an apostle and the Church is built on the apostles with Jesus as the cornerstone.

"I say to you that you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church."

Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.

The cornerstone is the guiding stone for the foundation.  It is the critical stone in the foundation.  The foundation is the apostles and Christ.  Christ, not the apostles and not Peter, is the cornerstone.  Peter is just one of the apostles.

As Catholics we hold that Christ is the cornerstone of the Church built on the foundation of the apostles (including Peter) and the prophets, just like scripture says.

Somehow though, according to Jesus Christ who is God, he said: (mixing English and the Aramaic which is the language that Jesus likely spoke with the apostles):

"I say to you that you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church."

Peter's name was not "Peter" at all, and even "Petros" was a translation.  The Greek transliteration of his name was "Cephas" and we can see that used multiple times in scripture to refer to Peter.

Jesus renamed (exalted) Simon son of John to Kepha, and Kepha in Aramaic means rock.  And regardless of how a person chooses to interpret the size of that rock meant by "Kepha", the plain fact is that Peter (Kepha) is the rock (Kepha) that Jesus said he will build his Church upon.

Of course Jesus is the cornerstone, and of course Peter wasn't going to claim that he was when he wrote the verse that was mentioned above.   How prideful a statement that would be.  The Church is nothing without Christ as the cornerstone.  But that cornerstone then selected, explicitly, Peter, to be the rock upon which His own Church would be built.

Neither Paul nor any of the other apostles, including Peter himself, ever posited Peter as the rock upon which the church was being built.  And in fact, in reading Paul, he would seem to be in stark opposition to that.
Of course they didn't.  The 'church'  of Christ was built on Him being the Messiah, not some human man.   without that, there wouldn't even be any 'apostles'.  His church was built on the rock of Peter's statement (confession) - that He is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #28 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 09:46:05 »
We as Catholics believe every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.  That means Jesus. 

You interpret Paul wrongly, Paul was a faithful Catholic.

Are you sure, who was then his Pope? Peter?
So Paul called Peter his "Holy Father"?

But if Paul was not Pope then he was not infallible, so why did you include Paul's letters into the canon?
Shouldn't Peter have approved first?

* Yes, Peter was Paul's Pope.  In Peter's first letter, he says he is in Rome, and the "Pope" is just another title for the bishop of Rome.  Babylon is named specifically, but that was a codeword for Pagan Rome.

“The Church here in Babylon, united with you by God’s election, sends you her greeting, and so does my son, Mark” 1 Peter 5:13

* Paul was also given the grace to perform an infallible act, as were all the NT authors.  This is proof that God does in fact give the charism to some men to be infallible, i.e. to perform infallible acts.

* I didn't include Paul's letters into the canon.  The infallible Magisterium of the Catholic Church did. 

* Peter did seem to approve of Paul's letters first.

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV)

Offline skeeter

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #29 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 10:06:53 »
We as Catholics believe every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.  That means Jesus. 

You interpret Paul wrongly, Paul was a faithful Catholic.

Are you sure, who was then his Pope? Peter?
So Paul called Peter his "Holy Father"?

But if Paul was not Pope then he was not infallible, so why did you include Paul's letters into the canon?
Shouldn't Peter have approved first?

* Yes, Peter was Paul's Pope.  In Peter's first letter, he says he is in Rome, and the "Pope" is just another title for the bishop of Rome.  Babylon is named specifically, but that was a codeword for Pagan Rome.

“The Church here in Babylon, united with you by God’s election, sends you her greeting, and so does my son, Mark” 1 Peter 5:13

* Paul was also given the grace to perform an infallible act, as were all the NT authors.  This is proof that God does in fact give the charism to some men to be infallible, i.e. to perform infallible acts.

* I didn't include Paul's letters into the canon.  The infallible Magisterium of the Catholic Church did. 

* Peter did seem to approve of Paul's letters first.

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV)
Babylon was the capital of Babylonia, the alluvial plain between the Euphrates and Tigris... is that where Rome is? was?

no, Peter didn't approve of them first... he didn't even teach the same thing Paul taught at first.


Buster D Body Crab

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #30 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 10:22:17 »

Of course they didn't.  The 'church'  of Christ was built on Him being the Messiah, not some human man.   without that, there wouldn't even be any 'apostles'.  His church was built on the rock of Peter's statement (confession) - that He is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.


Exactly. Jesus didn't come to establish the Roman Catholic church. 
You might find this informative.
Leaving the Catholic Church Small | Large

Offline Catholica

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #31 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 10:31:05 »
We as Catholics believe every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.  That means Jesus. 

You interpret Paul wrongly, Paul was a faithful Catholic.

Are you sure, who was then his Pope? Peter?
So Paul called Peter his "Holy Father"?

But if Paul was not Pope then he was not infallible, so why did you include Paul's letters into the canon?
Shouldn't Peter have approved first?

* Yes, Peter was Paul's Pope.  In Peter's first letter, he says he is in Rome, and the "Pope" is just another title for the bishop of Rome.  Babylon is named specifically, but that was a codeword for Pagan Rome.

“The Church here in Babylon, united with you by God’s election, sends you her greeting, and so does my son, Mark” 1 Peter 5:13

* Paul was also given the grace to perform an infallible act, as were all the NT authors.  This is proof that God does in fact give the charism to some men to be infallible, i.e. to perform infallible acts.

* I didn't include Paul's letters into the canon.  The infallible Magisterium of the Catholic Church did. 

* Peter did seem to approve of Paul's letters first.

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV)
Babylon was the capital of Babylonia, the alluvial plain between the Euphrates and Tigris... is that where Rome is? was?

Babylon was destroyed in 689 BC.  At the time of the apostles, the place where Babylon was was a rubble field.  There are many allusions to Pagan Rome, especially in the book of Revelation.  Babylon was an early Christian codeword for Pagan Rome.

Quote
no, Peter didn't approve of them first... he didn't even teach the same thing Paul taught at first.

That is the false two-gospel heresy rearing it's ugly head.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #32 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 10:35:21 »

Of course they didn't.  The 'church'  of Christ was built on Him being the Messiah, not some human man.   without that, there wouldn't even be any 'apostles'.  His church was built on the rock of Peter's statement (confession) - that He is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.


Exactly. Jesus didn't come to establish the Roman Catholic church. 
You might find this informative.
Leaving the Catholic Church


From the film:

"(During the first three hundred years) Christianity had no judgment, Satan, hell, Easter or Christmas". 

LOL!

Offline AVZ

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #33 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 10:52:19 »
* Yes, Peter was Paul's Pope.  In Peter's first letter, he says he is in Rome, and the "Pope" is just another title for the bishop of Rome.  Babylon is named specifically, but that was a codeword for Pagan Rome.

But what if Peter really was in Babylon?
Quite logically if one would be in Babylon, one would write "I am in Babylon".

But here is the thing.
Revelation also writes about Babylon and how the Antichrist seats there.
It also tells us about "Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations."

Here however Catholics are very quick to say that Babylon means Babylon and not Rome.

Why not just make up your mind?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Peter’s Profession of Faith
« Reply #34 on: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 10:55:03 »
* Yes, Peter was Paul's Pope.  In Peter's first letter, he says he is in Rome, and the "Pope" is just another title for the bishop of Rome.  Babylon is named specifically, but that was a codeword for Pagan Rome.

But what if Peter really was in Babylon?
Quite logically if one would be in Babylon, one would write "I am in Babylon".

But here is the thing.
Revelation also writes about Babylon and how the Antichrist seats there.
It also tells us about "Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations."

Here however Catholics are very quick to say that Babylon means Babylon and not Rome.

Why not just make up your mind?

Huh, why don't you?  Either Peter was in the real Babylon, and the Babylon spoken of in Revelation is not Rome (and therefore not the Catholic Church), or Babylon was an allusion to the city of Rome (which was Pagan at the time of writing), and John was referring to Pagan Rome (not the Church there which would eventually overcome Pagan Rome) and Peter was there.

Catholics would be one of the first to admit that Babylon was Pagan Rome.  The doublespeak is not ours, but yours.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 29, 2015 - 10:58:53 by Catholica »