GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Pope to meet Congress  (Read 2236 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Pope to meet Congress
« on: Sat Jul 11, 2015 - 16:13:10 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Christian Forums and Message Board

Pope to meet Congress
« on: Sat Jul 11, 2015 - 16:13:10 »

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 00:30:19 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 00:30:19 »

Offline Paulus

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1308
  • Manna: 138
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 04:37:52 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 07:12:22 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the world will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

It took three hundred yeas for the church to finally get where it did but look at it now in its Grand parade of apostasy professing Christ and loving the world at the same time. Its just the nature of the beast. But as the hour glass runs down so shall it all speed up
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 13, 2015 - 06:41:10 by mclees8 »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 07:12:22 »

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6262
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 10:28:55 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 10:28:55 »



Online AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6187
  • Manna: 122
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #5 on: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 11:40:33 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Says the church who admitted Muslims into the plan of salvation...

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #6 on: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 12:28:14 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Well it would seem that she has strange bedfellows for her congregations

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6262
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #7 on: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 15:02:53 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Says the church who admitted Muslims into the plan of salvation...

All people are in God's plan of salvation.

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #8 on: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 17:21:50 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Says the church who admitted Muslims into the plan of salvation...

All people are in God's plan of salvation.

The goal is not so much salvation but to achieve world peace and unity of the three main religions Christianity Judaism, and Islam.  Of course the pope wants to be big cheese

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #9 on: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 23:05:31 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Says the church who admitted Muslims into the plan of salvation...

All people are in God's plan of salvation.

The goal is not so much salvation but to achieve world peace and unity of the three main religions Christianity Judaism, and Islam.  Of course the pope wants to be big cheese


Oh boy!
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 23:08:27 by Ladonia »

Offline skeeter

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1592
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Female
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #10 on: Sun Jul 12, 2015 - 23:24:11 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days.
Pray tell us, just what are those signals?
I was wondering that myself.  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::
The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle
In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.
Says the church who admitted Muslims into the plan of salvation...
All people are in God's plan of salvation.
The goal is not so much salvation but to achieve world peace and unity of the three main religions Christianity Judaism, and Islam.  Of course the pope wants to be big cheese
from what I read in the Bible, real world peace and  unity isn't going to happen until our Lord comes back anyway.   

Online AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6187
  • Manna: 122
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #11 on: Mon Jul 13, 2015 - 06:11:04 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Says the church who admitted Muslims into the plan of salvation...

All people are in God's plan of salvation.

Nope. Only Christians are in the plan of salvation. The others are not saved.

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #12 on: Mon Jul 13, 2015 - 06:52:19 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Says the church who admitted Muslims into the plan of salvation...

All people are in God's plan of salvation.

The goal is not so much salvation but to achieve world peace and unity of the three main religions Christianity Judaism, and Islam.  Of course the pope wants to be big cheese


Oh boy!

In the dark ages she was all shall ambitioned for during the time of Charlemagne. She has always loved power and center stage. Her grand religious parade along with temporal power. It is no different right now and she is biting at the bit.   

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6262
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #13 on: Mon Jul 13, 2015 - 08:45:30 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Says the church who admitted Muslims into the plan of salvation...

All people are in God's plan of salvation.

Nope. Only Christians are in the plan of salvation. The others are not saved.

I didn't say they were saved.  I said that they were in a plan of salvation.

I plan to drive home later today.  Being home for supper is in my plan for the day.  That doesn't mean that I am at home right now.

That is what a plan is.

Online AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6187
  • Manna: 122
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #14 on: Mon Jul 13, 2015 - 09:57:56 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Says the church who admitted Muslims into the plan of salvation...

All people are in God's plan of salvation.

Nope. Only Christians are in the plan of salvation. The others are not saved.

I didn't say they were saved.  I said that they were in a plan of salvation.

I plan to drive home later today.  Being home for supper is in my plan for the day.  That doesn't mean that I am at home right now.

That is what a plan is.

Oh Catholica, you can't help yourself. Purposely trying to divert the intention of the statement made by the church?

First of all, the purpose of making a plan for something that is condemned.
For example, a maintenance plan for a scrap car. Nobody will have such a thing because the car is going to be scrapped.
So the plan of salvation is for those who have a potential to be saved, i.e. Christians.
The only plan for non-Christians is hell.

Secondly, the RCC in the catechism clearly defines WHY she thinks Muslims take part in the plan of salvation: because (according to the RCC) they worship the same God as Christians.
Not only is this statement wrong and deeply disturbing, the RCC also alludes that those who may accept the Father but reject the Son have a chance of salvation.
Surely we know that this is an impossibility.

Finally we know from scripture that the complete plan of salvation has been brought into fulfillment by the sacrifice of Jesus.
The gospel is build on this fact, and without the gospel no salvation would be possible.
Hence we must ask the RCC how they think that those who reject Christ and the gospel and with that scripture, could possibly be part of a plan they themselves reject!

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6262
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #15 on: Mon Jul 13, 2015 - 11:17:31 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Says the church who admitted Muslims into the plan of salvation...

All people are in God's plan of salvation.

Nope. Only Christians are in the plan of salvation. The others are not saved.

I didn't say they were saved.  I said that they were in a plan of salvation.

I plan to drive home later today.  Being home for supper is in my plan for the day.  That doesn't mean that I am at home right now.

That is what a plan is.

Oh Catholica, you can't help yourself. Purposely trying to divert the intention of the statement made by the church?

First of all, the purpose of making a plan for something that is condemned.
For example, a maintenance plan for a scrap car. Nobody will have such a thing because the car is going to be scrapped.
So the plan of salvation is for those who have a potential to be saved, i.e. Christians.
The only plan for non-Christians is hell.

Everyone has a potential to be saved.  Even Muslims.  By accepting Christ.  There is no plan for anyone to go to hell.  But many will.  No one is condemned until they die and are judged as such.

Secondly, the RCC in the catechism clearly defines WHY she thinks Muslims take part in the plan of salvation: because (according to the RCC) they worship the same God as Christians.
Not only is this statement wrong and deeply disturbing, the RCC also alludes that those who may accept the Father but reject the Son have a chance of salvation.
Surely we know that this is an impossibility.

This is a common misunderstanding from the Catechism.  No Catholic believes that Muslims are saved as Muslims.  You choose to keep feigning ignorance of that fact in order to support your soapbox.  It won't be so pretty for you at your judgment if you drive someone away from the only religion that saves, the Catholic religion, especially since you are not actually ignorant of what Catholics believe, but choose to repeat a lie about what we believe anyway.

Finally we know from scripture that the complete plan of salvation has been brought into fulfillment by the sacrifice of Jesus.
The gospel is build on this fact, and without the gospel no salvation would be possible.
Hence we must ask the RCC how they think that those who reject Christ and the gospel and with that scripture, could possibly be part of a plan they themselves reject!

We don't reject it.  That is precisely the correct understanding of the Catholic religion.  Which you feign to be ignorant of.

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6262
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #16 on: Mon Jul 13, 2015 - 11:27:14 »
Tell me AVZ, in your belief system, does the plan of salvation include the Jews?  And what does the Catholic Church teach?

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6262
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #17 on: Mon Jul 13, 2015 - 12:11:09 »
Here is the section from the catechism that AVZ continually misrepresents and a fuller understanding thereof, emphasis mine:
Quote
The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

    All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

    Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845
To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

325 LG 16.
326 Cf. NA 4.
327 Roman Missal, Good Friday 13:General Intercessions,VI.
328 Rom 9:4-5.
329 Rom 11:29.
330 LG 16; cf. NA 3.
331 NA 1.
332 LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53.
333 LG 16; cf. Rom 1:21, 25.
334 St. Augustine, Serm. 96,7,9:PL 38,588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18 118:PL 16,297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21.

First to note is the line I made larger above, which states that all must enter the Church to find salvation.

Secondly, to properly read the Catechism, sometimes it is absolutely necessary to follow the footnotes to get the true sense of what is actually being said.  In this case, let's follow footnote 430 which pertains to the paragraph in question.  "LG" refers to the document Lumen Gentium, and "NA" refers to the document "Nostra Aetate".

From Lumen Gentium, emphasis mine:

Quote
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

So we see that CCC #841 is a restatement of part of LG 16, the part that I have bolded above.  Here is the other reference.

From Nostra Aetate, emphasis mine:

Quote
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

5. Cf St. Gregory VII, letter XXI to Anzir (Nacir), King of Mauritania (Pl. 148, col. 450f.)

Notice the footnote here, #5.  Again we follow the footnote to get the context of this quote.  How exactly do we as Catholics believe that Muslims "adore the one true God"?

From St. Gergory VII, letter XXI to Anzir (Nacir), King of Mauritania:

Quote
"God, the Creator of all, without whom we cannot do or even think anything that is good, has inspired to your heart this act of kindness. He who enlightens all men coming into this world (John 1.9) has enlightened your mind for this purpose. Almighty God, who desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2.4) and none to perish is well pleased to approve in us most of all that besides loving God men love other men, and do not do to others anything they do not want to be done unto themselves (cf. Mt. 7.14). We and you must show in a special way to the other nations an example of this charity, for we believe and confess one God, although in different ways, and praise and worship Him daily as the creator of all ages and the ruler of this world. For as the apostle says: "He is our peace who has made us both one." (Eph. 2.14) Many among the Roman nobility, informed by us of this grace granted to you by God, greatly admire and praise your goodness and virtues... God knows that we love you purely for His honour and that we desire your salvation and glory, both in the present and in the future life. And we pray in our hearts and with our lips that God may lead you to the abode of happiness, to the bosom of the holy patriarch Abraham, after long years of life here on earth.

So in conclusion, Muslims "adore the one true God" ONLY insofar as they 1) recognize him as creator and ruler of the world, 2) believe that he is merciful and 3) seek goodness and virtue.  They are deceived people but as persons who were created by God, God wills them to be saved, and so in a certain way gives them certain shadows and graces to lead them to goodness and truth and beauty, just as He does ALL men.  We DESIRE their salvation and true happiness which they can only find in Christ Jesus and not in Islam.

There is only one God and that God has made himself manifest in various ways to all men, at the very least naturally.  The satanic deception given to Mohammed has only created a source of deception leading many of God's created people away from him in certain ways.  They as people recognize certain true things about God, but have been taught other things that are false which enslave them.

In summary, yes 841 when deprived of context loses the full truth of what is implied by that statement.  In the fullness of Catholic teaching (that is, taking into account the WHOLE catechism and the documents that the Catechism draws upon), Muslims are simply partially deceived people who God wants to save, and that salvation can be found in Christ Jesus and his Church, into which both may enter through Christian baptism.  Islam doesn't save them.  God is drawing them to himself through truth and goodness and beauty, just as He is drawing all persons, and those three things are ultimately found only in the Catholic Church.

Online AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6187
  • Manna: 122
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #18 on: Mon Jul 13, 2015 - 13:03:04 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Says the church who admitted Muslims into the plan of salvation...

All people are in God's plan of salvation.

Nope. Only Christians are in the plan of salvation. The others are not saved.

I didn't say they were saved.  I said that they were in a plan of salvation.

I plan to drive home later today.  Being home for supper is in my plan for the day.  That doesn't mean that I am at home right now.

That is what a plan is.

Oh Catholica, you can't help yourself. Purposely trying to divert the intention of the statement made by the church?

First of all, the purpose of making a plan for something that is condemned.
For example, a maintenance plan for a scrap car. Nobody will have such a thing because the car is going to be scrapped.
So the plan of salvation is for those who have a potential to be saved, i.e. Christians.
The only plan for non-Christians is hell.

Everyone has a potential to be saved.  Even Muslims.  By accepting Christ.  There is no plan for anyone to go to hell.  But many will.  No one is condemned until they die and are judged as such.

Secondly, the RCC in the catechism clearly defines WHY she thinks Muslims take part in the plan of salvation: because (according to the RCC) they worship the same God as Christians.
Not only is this statement wrong and deeply disturbing, the RCC also alludes that those who may accept the Father but reject the Son have a chance of salvation.
Surely we know that this is an impossibility.

This is a common misunderstanding from the Catechism.  No Catholic believes that Muslims are saved as Muslims.  You choose to keep feigning ignorance of that fact in order to support your soapbox.  It won't be so pretty for you at your judgment if you drive someone away from the only religion that saves, the Catholic religion, especially since you are not actually ignorant of what Catholics believe, but choose to repeat a lie about what we believe anyway.

Finally we know from scripture that the complete plan of salvation has been brought into fulfillment by the sacrifice of Jesus.
The gospel is build on this fact, and without the gospel no salvation would be possible.
Hence we must ask the RCC how they think that those who reject Christ and the gospel and with that scripture, could possibly be part of a plan they themselves reject!

We don't reject it.  That is precisely the correct understanding of the Catholic religion.  Which you feign to be ignorant of.

You can swing it any way you like, but it's actually very simple.

Premise A: Muslims worship the same God as Christians.
This already is an error. Muslims do not recognize the Christian God. In fact they flat out reject Him.

Premise B: Because Muslims worship the same God of the Christians, they are part of the plan of salvation.
This is very simple. Because the premise is build on premise A, which is wrong, then premise B also is wrong.

There is very little more to be said really. Muslims are gentiles, unsaved people. They reject Christ and follow a false prophet.
And since Christians take God to be a Holy Trinity, where the Father, Son and Spirit are one, you simply cannot accept the statement made by the RCC.

Online AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6187
  • Manna: 122
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #19 on: Mon Jul 13, 2015 - 13:07:03 »
Tell me AVZ, in your belief system, does the plan of salvation include the Jews?  And what does the Catholic Church teach?

No, there is no plan of salvation for Jews. They too are unsaved people.
The RCC is wrong there as well.

By the way...since the RCC is so generous by handing out salvation to Muslims and Jews...where is the part in the catechism stating that the plan of salvation also includes Protestants?

The fact is that the RCC accepts Muslims and Jews to be part of the plan of salvation because the RCC considers them gentiles by ignorance.
Proptestants are not ignorant, hence according to the RCC Protestants are the unsaved people.

Offline skeeter

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1592
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Female
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #20 on: Mon Jul 13, 2015 - 16:00:32 »
Here is the section from the catechism that AVZ continually misrepresents and a fuller understanding thereof, emphasis mine:

Quote
The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

    All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

    Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845
To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

purple above - and I could have easily highlighted much more of it.   How about writing in regular English without 8 adjectives in every sentence.  And without having any sentence that rambles on for 2 lines or more.  It's obviously meant not to be easily understood.  Remove at least 1 lawyer and half of the wordsmiths from the mix of the catechism phrasing production and the RC might manage something that someone can at least begin to understand...


Muslims do not 'hold the faith' of Abraham. Have you read what they believe about it?  They believe that Ishmael is the son of promise.   So right there they deviate from God's word.  They do not believe in the same God I do, the God of the Bible.  Catholics might believe in the same god Muslims do, but I don't.  I don't know any Christians that believe in that god.

What scriptures support that 'humanity' needs the RCC to 'rediscover' their salvation?

why does one need to 'rediscover' it?  How often is that done? On an annual basis from the date of their 'first' discovery of it?   Where did they first discover it?

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #21 on: Mon Jul 13, 2015 - 22:16:12 »
Tell me AVZ, in your belief system, does the plan of salvation include the Jews?  And what does the Catholic Church teach?

No, there is no plan of salvation for Jews. They too are unsaved people.
The RCC is wrong there as well.

By the way...since the RCC is so generous by handing out salvation to Muslims and Jews...where is the part in the catechism stating that the plan of salvation also includes Protestants?

The fact is that the RCC accepts Muslims and Jews to be part of the plan of salvation because the RCC considers them gentiles by ignorance.
Proptestants are not ignorant, hence according to the RCC Protestants are the unsaved people.

The Jews are not Gods chosen people and also have no salvation? Boy, that will be news to a lot of Evangelical folks.

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #22 on: Mon Jul 13, 2015 - 22:51:27 »
John Boehner Has invited the pope to address a joint session of congress in Sept  He will be the first to do so. Pope Francis is growing in popularity even though some politicians may not warm up to his speech Still there has been signals  that the Vatican may be beginning to soften some about Gay rights and gays in general.  We will see when he speaks  in September which  may  draw a huge viewing and of course world news  Congress, the president, and the UN. I believe we will see the pope a lot in the coming days

Pray tell us, just what are those signals?

I was wondering that myself .  ???

They will be in someone's over-active imagination no doubt .  ::frown::

The church of the worldd will follow after the world though that be gradual and slow so as to not be blatant. The Lobbies took years but finally got their way.  It may take a while but the church of the world will soften yet suttle

In 2000 years the Church hasn't adapted to the world.  That is because the Catholic Church is not the church of the world: it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Says the church who admitted Muslims into the plan of salvation...

All people are in God's plan of salvation.

Nope. Only Christians are in the plan of salvation. The others are not saved.

I didn't say they were saved.  I said that they were in a plan of salvation.

I plan to drive home later today.  Being home for supper is in my plan for the day.  That doesn't mean that I am at home right now.

That is what a plan is.

Oh Catholica, you can't help yourself. Purposely trying to divert the intention of the statement made by the church?

First of all, the purpose of making a plan for something that is condemned.
For example, a maintenance plan for a scrap car. Nobody will have such a thing because the car is going to be scrapped.
So the plan of salvation is for those who have a potential to be saved, i.e. Christians.
The only plan for non-Christians is hell.

Everyone has a potential to be saved.  Even Muslims.  By accepting Christ.  There is no plan for anyone to go to hell.  But many will.  No one is condemned until they die and are judged as such.

Secondly, the RCC in the catechism clearly defines WHY she thinks Muslims take part in the plan of salvation: because (according to the RCC) they worship the same God as Christians.
Not only is this statement wrong and deeply disturbing, the RCC also alludes that those who may accept the Father but reject the Son have a chance of salvation.
Surely we know that this is an impossibility.

This is a common misunderstanding from the Catechism.  No Catholic believes that Muslims are saved as Muslims.  You choose to keep feigning ignorance of that fact in order to support your soapbox.  It won't be so pretty for you at your judgment if you drive someone away from the only religion that saves, the Catholic religion, especially since you are not actually ignorant of what Catholics believe, but choose to repeat a lie about what we believe anyway.

Finally we know from scripture that the complete plan of salvation has been brought into fulfillment by the sacrifice of Jesus.
The gospel is build on this fact, and without the gospel no salvation would be possible.
Hence we must ask the RCC how they think that those who reject Christ and the gospel and with that scripture, could possibly be part of a plan they themselves reject!

We don't reject it.  That is precisely the correct understanding of the Catholic religion.  Which you feign to be ignorant of.

You can swing it any way you like, but it's actually very simple.

Premise A: Muslims worship the same God as Christians.
This already is an error. Muslims do not recognize the Christian God. In fact they flat out reject Him.

Premise B: Because Muslims worship the same God of the Christians, they are part of the plan of salvation.
This is very simple. Because the premise is build on premise A, which is wrong, then premise B also is wrong.

There is very little more to be said really. Muslims are gentiles, unsaved people. They reject Christ and follow a false prophet.
And since Christians take God to be a Holy Trinity, where the Father, Son and Spirit are one, you simply cannot accept the statement made by the RCC.

In your "Premise A", I would say you are correct. Muslims do not recognize the Christian God i.e Jesus Christ. They see Him only as a prophet, one of many who have come here to earth.

As for God the Father in heaven, the one God, the Creator of every single human, the Muslims say they worship that God. I am very interested to find out so,  if they do not worship the Creator of us all,  please tell us who they are worshipping?

Offline skeeter

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1592
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Female
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #23 on: Tue Jul 14, 2015 - 01:28:46 »
In your "Premise A", I would say you are correct. Muslims do not recognize the Christian God i.e Jesus Christ. They see Him only as a prophet, one of many who have come here to earth.

As for God the Father in heaven, the one God, the Creator of every single human, the Muslims say they worship that God. I am very interested to find out so,  if they do not worship the Creator of us all,  please tell us who they are worshipping?
The only way to God is thru the Son.  They don't believe in the Son, so they don't know God either.  They worship a false god.

Online AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6187
  • Manna: 122
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #24 on: Tue Jul 14, 2015 - 04:39:10 »
Tell me AVZ, in your belief system, does the plan of salvation include the Jews?  And what does the Catholic Church teach?

No, there is no plan of salvation for Jews. They too are unsaved people.
The RCC is wrong there as well.

By the way...since the RCC is so generous by handing out salvation to Muslims and Jews...where is the part in the catechism stating that the plan of salvation also includes Protestants?

The fact is that the RCC accepts Muslims and Jews to be part of the plan of salvation because the RCC considers them gentiles by ignorance.
Proptestants are not ignorant, hence according to the RCC Protestants are the unsaved people.

The Jews are not Gods chosen people and also have no salvation? Boy, that will be news to a lot of Evangelical folks.

This discussion is not about who God's chosen people are, but who the saved are.
There is no plan of salvation for Jews and similarly to a gentile...Jews need to become Christians first before salvation becomes within their grasp.
The same goes for Muslims, who in principal are nothing else by gentiles with an ungodly theology.

The RCC makes it appear as is believing in the same Father has merits somehow towards redemption.
It has not, the Bible is very clear about this...redemption and salvation are only to be obtained through the Son.

Jews and Muslims have something in common besides shared ancestry...they both have access to the principal of salvation, but by their rejection of Christ invalidate themselves.

It is inherently wrong to claim that because Jews and Muslims worship the same God as Christians..they somehow score brownie points which entitles them to be part of a salvic plan.
The Bible however makes it perfectly clear what happens to those who reject Christ.

This is what the Bible says in Acts 4:11-12
"This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

It is quite funny how you wish to defend the RCC on this matter because lets face it, you are arguing that our God is the same as the Muslim God.
Now why don't you go to a Muslim and ask him the same question?
They will flat out reject that their God is similar to ours. Why? Because our God is a Trinity and in the eyes of a Muslim that is heresy.

You think a Muslim or Jew would agree with you that they are worshipping the same God as the Christians? Never!
In their mind we are gentiles, heretics, unbelievers and doomed.

The inclusion of Jews and Muslims in the plan of salvation does not only make no sense to Protestants...it also does not make sense to Jews and Muslims.

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #25 on: Thu Jul 16, 2015 - 15:49:15 »
I do believe there are messianic Jews as well asl converted Muslims. We just don't hear much about them. How ever I do know what you are saying. 

This make me think.  Why are RC's so blinded by the authority order when it seems things are so blatant that they are not about true faith. 

Bill Cosby was loved during his hay day and TV show. No one wanted to think any evil of him even thought he lived as a playboy and the world saw no evil.  His wife even refused to see it. Now it comes out after no one can do any thing to Him legally that he was all that the bunny's said.   This sad blindness of RC's  is like " see no evel hear no evil" all the while the  Vatican and the popes profess Christ only do good, all the time they sleep with the world.  Like Cosby's wife her husband could do no wrong while he had Bunny's on both arms. 
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 17, 2015 - 11:09:41 by mclees8 »

Offline neophyte

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 470
  • Manna: 3
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #26 on: Sat Jul 25, 2015 - 11:47:04 »
The Catholic Church formed by Jesus is based on both Sacred Apostolic Teaching [ Sacred Oral Teachings from Jesus to the nucleus of His Church His earthly teachers His apostles/successors and the Sacred Written Word the complete Holy Bible.

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #27 on: Tue Jul 28, 2015 - 10:07:46 »
The Catholic Church formed by Jesus is based on both Sacred Apostolic Teaching [ Sacred Oral Teachings from Jesus to the nucleus of His Church His earthly teachers His apostles/successors and the Sacred Written Word the complete Holy Bible.

Actually the Catholic church has a double standard.   You cannot profess Christ and sleep with world at the same time.   Soon the pope will come to America riding his white horse in to our congress, then Chat with the president and ride on to the UN. He may scold the US for legal gay marriage. Who is the pope to scold Babylon being the world that God call His church to be no part of.   If you know your scripture which most do not you would find out the world and Babylon are one and the same

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6262
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #28 on: Tue Jul 28, 2015 - 13:47:51 »
The Catholic Church formed by Jesus is based on both Sacred Apostolic Teaching [ Sacred Oral Teachings from Jesus to the nucleus of His Church His earthly teachers His apostles/successors and the Sacred Written Word the complete Holy Bible.

Actually the Catholic church has a double standard.   You cannot profess Christ and sleep with world at the same time.   Soon the pope will come to America riding his white horse in to our congress, then Chat with the president and ride on to the UN. He may scold the US for legal gay marriage. Who is the pope to scold Babylon being the world that God call His church to be no part of.   If you know your scripture which most do not you would find out the world and Babylon are one and the same

Jesus taught us to pray to the Father,

"Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven."

Mike says,

"Earth's will be done on Earth."

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6262
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #29 on: Tue Jul 28, 2015 - 16:25:18 »
This discussion is not about who God's chosen people are, but who the saved are.
There is no plan of salvation for Jews and similarly to a gentile...Jews need to become Christians first before salvation becomes within their grasp.
The same goes for Muslims, who in principal are nothing else by gentiles with an ungodly theology.

Sounds like a plan of salvation to me... That's exactly what the Catholic Church says about Jews.  And Muslims.  And everyone.

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #30 on: Wed Jul 29, 2015 - 11:59:58 »
The Catholic Church formed by Jesus is based on both Sacred Apostolic Teaching [ Sacred Oral Teachings from Jesus to the nucleus of His Church His earthly teachers His apostles/successors and the Sacred Written Word the complete Holy Bible.

Actually the Catholic church has a double standard.   You cannot profess Christ and sleep with world at the same time.   Soon the pope will come to America riding his white horse in to our congress, then Chat with the president and ride on to the UN. He may scold the US for legal gay marriage. Who is the pope to scold Babylon being the world that God call His church to be no part of.   If you know your scripture which most do not you would find out the world and Babylon are one and the same

Jesus taught us to pray to the Father,

"Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven."

Mike says,

"Earth's will be done on Earth."

Mike said no such thing.  And what does your comment have to do with what I stated.  The earth and the biblical word world carry different definitions.  It is true that God wants HIs will to be done on the earth but the world being Babylon speaks to the spirit of men of the world.  All that is the world is peoples nations tongues that know not Christ because their spirit rejects Christ.  It is all that is idolatrous, religious. materialistic, greedy, corrupt lust for power and desires recognition, etc.     

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6262
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #31 on: Wed Jul 29, 2015 - 12:29:20 »
The Catholic Church formed by Jesus is based on both Sacred Apostolic Teaching [ Sacred Oral Teachings from Jesus to the nucleus of His Church His earthly teachers His apostles/successors and the Sacred Written Word the complete Holy Bible.

Actually the Catholic church has a double standard.   You cannot profess Christ and sleep with world at the same time.   Soon the pope will come to America riding his white horse in to our congress, then Chat with the president and ride on to the UN. He may scold the US for legal gay marriage. Who is the pope to scold Babylon being the world that God call His church to be no part of.   If you know your scripture which most do not you would find out the world and Babylon are one and the same

Jesus taught us to pray to the Father,

"Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven."

Mike says,

"Earth's will be done on Earth."

Mike said no such thing.  And what does your comment have to do with what I stated.  The earth and the biblical word world carry different definitions.  It is true that God wants HIs will to be done on the earth but the world being Babylon speaks to the spirit of men of the world.  All that is the world is peoples nations tongues that know not Christ because their spirit rejects Christ.  It is all that is idolatrous, religious. materialistic, greedy, corrupt lust for power and desires recognition, etc.     

So can you explain why the pope shouldn't influence the world, so that the whole world might do God's will?

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #32 on: Wed Jul 29, 2015 - 12:35:23 »
The Catholic Church formed by Jesus is based on both Sacred Apostolic Teaching [ Sacred Oral Teachings from Jesus to the nucleus of His Church His earthly teachers His apostles/successors and the Sacred Written Word the complete Holy Bible.

Actually the Catholic church has a double standard.   You cannot profess Christ and sleep with world at the same time.   Soon the pope will come to America riding his white horse in to our congress, then Chat with the president and ride on to the UN. He may scold the US for legal gay marriage. Who is the pope to scold Babylon being the world that God call His church to be no part of.   If you know your scripture which most do not you would find out the world and Babylon are one and the same

Jesus taught us to pray to the Father,

"Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven."

Mike says,

"Earth's will be done on Earth."

Mike said no such thing.  And what does your comment have to do with what I stated.  The earth and the biblical word world carry different definitions.  It is true that God wants HIs will to be done on the earth but the world being Babylon speaks to the spirit of men of the world.  All that is the world is peoples nations tongues that know not Christ because their spirit rejects Christ.  It is all that is idolatrous, religious. materialistic, greedy, corrupt lust for power and desires recognition, etc.     

So can you explain why the pope shouldn't influence the world, so that the whole world might do God's will?
I

Ist Jesus never was about being a political messiah.  He was not about a religious political order that counseled world leaders.  He could have done that but he would have been under satan. Satan offered Him the whole world. You say now why not address the worlds leaders and the political system of the world. He did not because it was not the will of the Father.  He was about salvation of men and to be the Lamb of God. Babylon is three parts. Religious, political,  and monetary systems that comprise the whole world.

Salvation is not about addressing world leaders about how to be moral.  The will of the Father is to reach each individual with the gospel of Christ that they may be saved by it. It reaches to the individual not addressing politicians so we can have a more moral society.   

 Why didn't Jesus put on religious robes and a tall hat and council the leaders of Rome.  The world is ripe for a political messiah.  The world is in a desperate state, but you cannot save the world or Jesus wouldn't have  said. I pray for the disciple, I pray not for the world. Each man must find Christ personally in his heart.   This was how the church taught the gospel.  Do you think the pope will tell congress it must reverse its decision that goes against God.  The world and its political religious systems is coming to the judgment. They are going to keep right on with their godless ruling of law. The pope may not have anything good to say about gay marriage but with time they to will  soften to pressure just like our high courts because its of the world.

What then is the will of the Father. That all men come to Christ.  Babylon will burn  and the new heaven and the new earth will take its place

Can you not see this.  The world is given now to pedophiles.   How will the pope respond and if he did will it be in the power of Gods word or just a scolding. We shall see in September. Either way he is in a religious political position, that walks with the world.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 29, 2015 - 17:23:36 by mclees8 »

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6262
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #33 on: Wed Jul 29, 2015 - 13:03:20 »
The Catholic Church formed by Jesus is based on both Sacred Apostolic Teaching [ Sacred Oral Teachings from Jesus to the nucleus of His Church His earthly teachers His apostles/successors and the Sacred Written Word the complete Holy Bible.

Actually the Catholic church has a double standard.   You cannot profess Christ and sleep with world at the same time.   Soon the pope will come to America riding his white horse in to our congress, then Chat with the president and ride on to the UN. He may scold the US for legal gay marriage. Who is the pope to scold Babylon being the world that God call His church to be no part of.   If you know your scripture which most do not you would find out the world and Babylon are one and the same

Jesus taught us to pray to the Father,

"Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven."

Mike says,

"Earth's will be done on Earth."

Mike said no such thing.  And what does your comment have to do with what I stated.  The earth and the biblical word world carry different definitions.  It is true that God wants HIs will to be done on the earth but the world being Babylon speaks to the spirit of men of the world.  All that is the world is peoples nations tongues that know not Christ because their spirit rejects Christ.  It is all that is idolatrous, religious. materialistic, greedy, corrupt lust for power and desires recognition, etc.     

So can you explain why the pope shouldn't influence the world, so that the whole world might do God's will?
I

 would be most happy to,  I have to rest my eyes right now., but I will in a couples hours

That's fine, but it will be completely contradictory.

A person, or being, for that matter, doesn't have to be a Christian to do God's will.  God's will is often done through non-Christians.  Even demons unwittingly take part in doing God's will.

Doing good (also known as, doing God's will) can lead people to God, and can lead them to accepting Jesus.

The Holy Spirit leads people to know God through the witness of Christians.  Christians sometimes witness not by words but by how they live their lives, which sometimes can be in a way that the world doesn't know.  When the world sees this good way of living they sometimes want to live that way too, or to know what causes a person to live that way.  And through that, they come to know Jesus Christ through the Christian.

Offline skeeter

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1592
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Female
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Pope to meet Congress
« Reply #34 on: Wed Jul 29, 2015 - 16:57:01 »
The Catholic Church formed by Jesus is based on both Sacred Apostolic Teaching [ Sacred Oral Teachings from Jesus to the nucleus of His Church His earthly teachers His apostles/successors and the Sacred Written Word the complete Holy Bible.
Actually the Catholic church has a double standard.   You cannot profess Christ and sleep with world at the same time.   Soon the pope will come to America riding his white horse in to our congress, then Chat with the president and ride on to the UN. He may scold the US for legal gay marriage. Who is the pope to scold Babylon being the world that God call His church to be no part of.   If you know your scripture which most do not you would find out the world and Babylon are one and the same
Jesus taught us to pray to the Father,

"Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven."

Mike says,

"Earth's will be done on Earth."
Mike said no such thing.  And what does your comment have to do with what I stated.  The earth and the biblical word world carry different definitions.  It is true that God wants HIs will to be done on the earth but the world being Babylon speaks to the spirit of men of the world.  All that is the world is peoples nations tongues that know not Christ because their spirit rejects Christ.  It is all that is idolatrous, religious. materialistic, greedy, corrupt lust for power and desires recognition, etc.
So can you explain why the pope shouldn't influence the world, so that the whole world might do God's will?
he would need to know what God's will is in order to even try to do that.  It's obvious that he doesn't know it.

and we know from God's word that the 'whole world' is not going to do His will.

look up Kamal Shaleem (youtube testimony) - he gives the difference between God and Allah from the view of a Muslim.

 

     
anything