GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Prayer to the dead  (Read 4149 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4159
  • Manna: 39
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Prayer to the dead
« on: Sat Aug 29, 2015 - 15:00:02 »
In the past, many Catholics on these boards have argued that Catholics do not pray to the dead saints, but rather ask for their intercession with God, or for them to pray to God for them. Is the Pope unaware of this belief? Quotes from the follwing article seem to suggest he is.

http://wwrn.org/articles/44945/

Emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

Quote
Naples, Italy — The faithful here are still talking about Pope Francis and the holy blood.

On an official trip to this ancient city in the shadow of Mount Vesuvius, Pope Francis entered the local cathedral to pray to Januarius, the patron saint of Naples. Januarius’s 1,700-year-old dried blood is known to “spontaneously liquefy,” a phenomenon seen by true believers as a miraculous sign from above. Those gathered anxiously watched as Francis prayed before, then kissed, the ornate silver and glass reliquary containing the coagulated clot.

And lo and behold, the dark stain dissolved.

The cardinal of Naples, standing beside Francis, joyously heralded the sacred melting, bringing a round of gasps and applause. Then Francis himself acknowledged the mystery, in which the blood had only half liquefied. “It means the saint loves us halfway,” Francis said, according to accounts of those present that day five months ago. “We must all spread the word of God more, so that he loves us even more."

The incident in Naples, where Francis caused a stir with the blood of Saint Januarius, marked only one in a long list of recent papal devotions to relics and other mysterious artifacts. In June, for instance, the pope “venerated” the Shroud of Turin, praying before the cloth believed by some to be the burial garment of Jesus Christ despite disputed tests that have carbon-dated it to centuries after the crucifixion.

Coinciding with the pope’s U.S. visit, the body of Saint Maria Goretti — an 11-year-old Italian girl stabbed to death in 1902 by a family friend — will also travel to the United States on a multi-city tour. In Nettuno, Italy, her sanctuary is filled with mementos of gratitude — wedding dresses, rosaries and statues — from those who claim to have been cured of ailments after praying to her.

“The pope is clearly well inclined toward this kind of worship,” said the Rev. Giovanni Alberti, abbot of Goretti’s sanctuary. “He is from South America, where there is a strong sensibility of popular devotion.”


Christian Forums and Message Board

Prayer to the dead
« on: Sat Aug 29, 2015 - 15:00:02 »

LexKnight

  • Guest
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #1 on: Sat Aug 29, 2015 - 21:31:32 »
My question is why would we need to pray to Saints to intercede for us when we already have an Advocate to the Father directly?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #1 on: Sat Aug 29, 2015 - 21:31:32 »

Offline kensington

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6816
  • Manna: 356
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #2 on: Sat Aug 29, 2015 - 22:06:09 »
I don't care who they pray to any more.  I pray to the Father through the Son.  But, I take exception with the article proclamation that these are the "True Believers". 
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 29, 2015 - 23:47:09 by kensington »

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30579
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #3 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 03:26:43 »
My question is why would we need to pray to Saints to intercede for us when we already have an Advocate to the Father directly?

I think they see it as an extra 'insurance' policy or its out of superstition, or man made 'Tradition,' but when we have the Lord Jesus as our advocate then anything else is useless as well as being disobedient. God tells us clearly not to communicate with the dead, and that includes Mary, and if we do, we are opening ourselves up to evil spirits.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #3 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 03:26:43 »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6368
  • Manna: 339
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #4 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 04:04:28 »
Quote
Prayer to the dead
It is one of many of their "superstitions" which is nothing more than idol worship that makes up their false religion, and proves it to be just that...false.   Marian doctrines; Perpetual virginity; Mother of God; Immaculate conception; Fullness of grace; Advocate; Veneration of Mary; Salvation~ the concept of eventual salvation through suffering in purgatory. The Catholic belief that Mary can intercede on behalf of the dead to be nothing but blasphemy.  These are just some of their corruptions, just think, there are so many more...and they just add more as they need them. 

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #4 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 04:04:28 »



Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #5 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 07:49:35 »
My question is why would we need to pray to Saints to intercede for us when we already have an Advocate to the Father directly?

I think they see it as an extra 'insurance' policy or its out of superstition, or man made 'Tradition,' but when we have the Lord Jesus as our advocate then anything else is useless as well as being disobedient. God tells us clearly not to communicate with the dead, and that includes Mary, and if we do, we are opening ourselves up to evil spirits.


As you should know by now, those who were followers of Jesus Christ while they were here on earth are as alive in Him now that they are departed as you and I presently are. The soul/spirit is not dead but continues on in the afterlife, so if I can ask you to pray for me, why not those who are in union with God in heaven? As it says in Rev 8:4 "And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand".  So perhaps when we ask the saints to "pray for us" , those are also included.

But really, all this has been orthodox Christian teaching for millennia, so why should anyone believe your modern interpretation of things?

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #6 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 08:01:30 »
Quote
Prayer to the dead
It is one of many of their "superstitions" which is nothing more than idol worship that makes up their false religion, and proves it to be just that...false.   Marian doctrines; Perpetual virginity; Mother of God; Immaculate conception; Fullness of grace; Advocate; Veneration of Mary; Salvation~ the concept of eventual salvation through suffering in purgatory. The Catholic belief that Mary can intercede on behalf of the dead to be nothing but blasphemy.  These are just some of their corruptions, just think, there are so many more...and they just add more as they need them.

It is not only those who follow the Latin Rite of Christianity who believe those things you mentioned, but also our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters still adhere to such longtime Christian teachings.  Why should we believe the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures from someone like you who has taken the path of rejectionism from Christian orthodoxy?

Offline kensington

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6816
  • Manna: 356
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #7 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 11:47:34 »
They are not omnipotent, as God is, so it's not even possible that they hear or are aware of these prayers. 

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6368
  • Manna: 339
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #8 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 11:56:39 »
It is not only those who follow the Latin Rite of Christianity who believe those things you mentioned, but also our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters still adhere to such longtime Christian teachings.  Why should we believe the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures from someone like you who has taken the path of rejectionism from Christian orthodoxy?
Do not call your idol worshipping "superstitions" by that holy name "CHRISTIAN ORTHODOXY"...it can only be called that, if the word of God supports that particular doctrine, which those superstitions are not. As a child of God, I reject your twisted perversion of God's word, just as my Lord Jesus did unto your fathers the Pharisees.
Quote
Why should we believe the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures from someone like you
The truth as to why you do not, is two fold: one is that you cannot, unless God opens your heart; secondly, you would not, because we use only the scriptures for our doctrines~ and you folks know that the holy scriptures will not support your lies..so you must invent such thing as The Holy Tradition, that you exalt above God's very own testimony.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 12:04:42 by RB »

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4159
  • Manna: 39
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #9 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 12:20:34 »
I'll take it then, that since the Pope himself prays to the saints instead of just asking for their intercession, it is lawful within Roman Catholicism to do so. Those who argued in the past then, that such does not occur, were mistaken. If the Pope himself prays to the dead saints, then it is of course for all other Catholics to do so as well. Correct?

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #10 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 19:19:13 »
It is not only those who follow the Latin Rite of Christianity who believe those things you mentioned, but also our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters still adhere to such longtime Christian teachings.  Why should we believe the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures from someone like you who has taken the path of rejectionism from Christian orthodoxy?
Do not call your idol worshipping "superstitions" by that holy name "CHRISTIAN ORTHODOXY"...it can only be called that, if the word of God supports that particular doctrine, which those superstitions are not. As a child of God, I reject your twisted perversion of God's word, just as my Lord Jesus did unto your fathers the Pharisees.
Quote
Why should we believe the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures from someone like you
The truth as to why you do not, is two fold: one is that you cannot, unless God opens your heart; secondly, you would not, because we use only the scriptures for our doctrines~ and you folks know that the holy scriptures will not support your lies..so you must invent such thing as The Holy Tradition, that you exalt above God's very own testimony.

My twisted perversion of God's word? I say you have the twisted perversion, the one thought up by men, the new modern one that only came about hundreds upon hundreds of years after the original and true one that has, and still does, stand the test of time. This interpretation was arrived at by the Church as a whole, by the rightful leaders of it, the Bishops, called by God and placed in their postion to continue the teaching of His word down through time to this present day.

The fact is your interpretation of Gods word is so messed up, and that since none of you rejectionists can agree on any one biblical interpretation, there are now thousands of new Christian sects, each with it's own "truth". So which one is right? Is it yours, or the church down the street?

And Holy Tradition wasn't invented friend, it existed from the beginning and is how things were passed down by the Church before the Holy Scriptures were even put together in written form. In the beginning, there was no kind of "altar call", no haranguing by some preacher telling the people his own interpretation, but just the faithful breaking the bread of Holy Communion, (with all believing in the Real Presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ) and Scripture readings (Old Testament) and prayers, the "kiss of peace", and as time went on New Testament readings. All this a far cry from how you worship.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 19:38:38 by Ladonia »

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #11 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 19:31:29 »
I'll take it then, that since the Pope himself prays to the saints instead of just asking for their intercession, it is lawful within Roman Catholicism to do so. Those who argued in the past then, that such does not occur, were mistaken. If the Pope himself prays to the dead saints, then it is of course for all other Catholics to do so as well. Correct?

You just can't wrap your head around the fact that those who have gone before are as alive in Christ as we are, can you? And since you cannot believe that, then it is impossible for you to see and understand how we have come to believe in this particular teaching.

Offline kensington

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6816
  • Manna: 356
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #12 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 20:00:35 »
They are not actually as alive as we are?  They exist in Christ, but their bodies are still buried awaiting the resurrection.  They have not as yet received their glorified bodies that will unite with their spirit forever. 

Paul said, "To be absent from the body(dead) is to be present with the Lord"...  They are present with Christ, but not omnipotent to hear us pray as Jesus, He received His glorified body when He ascended.  He is whole and complete in Heaven to intercede for us they are still part in Him and part in the grave waiting to be complete in Him on that glorious day.

It's not the kind of alive that we are, nor the kind Christ is to hear prays.  We are alive in our earthly bodies, and can pray for what we know here in the circumstance in the moment.  Christ is alive and complete Body, soul and spirit in His Glorified body.  They are separated from us by death, present with God, but not complete until the resurrection of the body reunites them with their bodies.

I'm sorry the Catholic church got that wrong so long ago... but they did.  Uneducated men did what they could, but they missed it and in their lack of humbleness when greater understanding came, they ignored it for the traditions they created and believed.

Again, their essence is with Christ, but they have no awareness of our private thoughts or prayers.  Only an omnipotent God can hear and see all things.

Offline Texas Conservative

  • 1st Day Texas Conservativite
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8601
  • Manna: 353
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #13 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 20:29:48 »
Churches that Paul ministered in invited apostasy and sin into their midst a short time after he left.  Apostolic tradition is fine, as long as it jives with the scriptures.

Test the spirits.

Offline skeeter

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1592
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Female
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #14 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 20:43:49 »
My question is why would we need to pray to Saints to intercede for us when we already have an Advocate to the Father directly?
I think they see it as an extra 'insurance' policy or its out of superstition, or man made 'Tradition,' but when we have the Lord Jesus as our advocate then anything else is useless as well as being disobedient. God tells us clearly not to communicate with the dead, and that includes Mary, and if we do, we are opening ourselves up to evil spirits.
As you should know by now, those who were followers of Jesus Christ while they were here on earth are as alive in Him now that they are departed as you and I presently are. The soul/spirit is not dead but continues on in the afterlife, so if I can ask you to pray for me, why not those who are in union with God in heaven? As it says in Rev 8:4 "And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand".  So perhaps when we ask the saints to "pray for us" , those are also included.

But really, all this has been orthodox Christian teaching for millennia, so why should anyone believe your modern interpretation of things?
perhaps anything. you're guessing.

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #15 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 21:19:34 »
Believing in the teaching of praying to the "dead" for intercession is no different than believing that a young Jewish virgin could be impregnated by the Holy Spirit; that a burning bush talked; that several loaves and fishes fed thousands; that people were raised from the dead; that the blind could be given sight; that paralytics could be made to walk; that lepers could be cured; that water was turned into wine; that a man walked on the water; that this same man was crucified and rose from the dead, or a hundred other seemingly impossible things that happened that are written in the Scriptures. None of us has personally seen such things, but we believe them all based on faith. So given all those things I mentioned, I don't see how the orthodox Christian teaching on this issue can be considered by some to so far fetched a concept.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 21:52:15 by Ladonia »

LexKnight

  • Guest
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #16 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 22:04:24 »
Because you been indoctrinated in the doctrine... The fact is even if it isn't considered wrong, it's unnecessary as we already have a direct Advocate to the Father, Jesus Christ. Why would Mary, Patrick, Thomas, and all the others be necessary for intercession? It's foolish. Why would the Lord even allow that, considering how much He emphasized He I'd the way to the Father? The difference between them is all the other things you listed has Scriptural testimonies behind them. Intercession of the dead isn't. The one example was done through a witch, and it was to pronounce judgment on Saul. It's like having a Pope, it's foolish because the Lord lives...

Offline Texas Conservative

  • 1st Day Texas Conservativite
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8601
  • Manna: 353
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #17 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 22:07:26 »
Because you been indoctrinated in the doctrine... The fact is even if it isn't considered wrong, it's unnecessary as we already have a direct Advocate to the Father, Jesus Christ. Why would Mary, Patrick, Thomas, and all the others be necessary for intercession? It's foolish. Why would the Lord even allow that, considering how much He emphasized He I'd the way to the Father? The difference between them is all the other things you listed has Scriptural testimonies behind them. Intercession of the dead isn't. The one example was done through a witch, and it was to pronounce judgment on Saul. It's like having a Pope, it's foolish because the Lord lives...

 ::applause::

Offline skeeter

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1592
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Female
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #18 on: Sun Aug 30, 2015 - 23:07:16 »
Believing in the teaching of praying to the "dead" for intercession is no different than believing that a young Jewish virgin could be impregnated by the Holy Spirit; that a burning bush talked; that several loaves and fishes fed thousands; that people were raised from the dead; that the blind could be given sight; that paralytics could be made to walk; that lepers could be cured; that water was turned into wine; that a man walked on the water; that this same man was crucified and rose from the dead, or a hundred other seemingly impossible things that happened that are written in the Scriptures.  None of us has personally seen such things, but we believe them all based on faith.  So given all those things I mentioned, I don't see how the orthodox Christian teaching on this issue can be considered by some to so far fetched a concept.
aren't all of those things you listed approved by God or even done by Him? except talking to dead people.

He tells us not to communicate with the dead AND He sent us Jesus to take the place of human priests and to be our intercessor.  God gave us a direct line to Him thru the Son.  And you reject that gift and go against His word by using dead people to replace Jesus as intercessor.  You tell Him that Jesus isn't enough, you need dead humans to be your intercessor.


Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6368
  • Manna: 339
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #19 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 02:34:45 »
The difference between them is all the other things you listed has Scriptural testimonies behind them. Intercession of the dead isn't.
Amen brother.  That's the difference between Pharisaical doctrine and doctrines of the faithful in Jesus Christ.  

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6368
  • Manna: 339
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #20 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 03:34:28 »
My twisted perversion of God's word?
You understood me correctly.
Quote
I say you have the twisted perversion, the one thought up by men, the new modern one that only came about hundreds upon hundreds of years after the original and true one that has, and still does, stand the test of time.
Again, you say, they say, and he said...means not one thing, but which one is supported by the testimony of God Himself?  The faithful in Jesus Christ test every spirit by the word of their God, not by dogmas of the Pharisees, and Scribes. The faithful have only the holy scriptures to guide them, and they have been here since Moses, way before Catholicism and EOC. If you expect us to believe a doctrine, or a commandment, then show us from the word of truth, or else, you are a intruder, a stranger that we will not follow. We follow the True Shepherd and Bishop of our souls. Your shepherds are thieves and robbers, and care not for the sheep.
Quote
This interpretation was arrived at by the Church as a whole, by the rightful leaders of it, the Bishops, called by God and placed in their postion to continue the teaching of His word down through time to this present day.
Again, your words to the faithful are lies, for our Bishop, Jesus Christ has warned us of false shepherds, who love to seat in Moses' seat~who make broad their phylacteries, and to be called Rabbi, Rabbi...or Pa Pa! If you truly desire to see your religion in the scriptures, then go to Matthew 23, that's one of the places that you cannot miss your religion...clear as the noon day sun shining it its full strength.
Quote
The fact is your interpretation of Gods word is so messed up, and that since none of you rejectionists can agree on any one biblical interpretation
Just because it is different than yours, (and we bless Almighty God that it is) does not mean that we are mess up.  We are only concern if we agree with God's testimony, man's interpretation (including our own!)  means nothing to the faithful in Jesus Christ, we are continually testing our own understanding with God's words and will until we leave this world. Your words quoted in the box sounds so much like the Pharisees in John chapter nine, when speaking to the blind man as he was telling them who healed him:
Quote
John 9:24-34~"Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples? Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out."
Words sound familiar? If not, just read your words again!
Quote
And Holy Tradition wasn't invented friend, it existed from the beginning and is how things were passed down by the Church before the Holy Scriptures were even put together in written form
It was invented, the faithful would NEVER used such an expression, and the reason being is this: we have the scriptures to support any doctrine and practice that we have. We live by the very same standard that our Lord did when he lived in this world~by every written word of God! Matthew 4:4, and if it is NOT written, then how can it be tested?  It cannot, and your false religion knows that! So, your followers just blindly follow your lying words, so that you can continue practice your religion, even though it has no support of God's testimony from his word that he has given to us for us to use as our only guide in worshiping him.
Quote
In the beginning, there was no kind of "altar call",
True, and neither do we practice this.  Also, there were no so-called priest sitting behind a wall with people coming and confessing their sins to them either~beside this, our scriptures tell us that we ALL are a holy priesthood and we can go directly to God through our Lord Jesus! Much different than what you folks believe. Your tier of authority stinks in God's holy nostrils. Time would fail me to mention all of your corruption.
Quote
(with all believing in the Real Presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ)
  Oh, there's another one! And you folks are proud of your corruption of God's word.
Quote
All this a far cry from how you worship.
You would never understand if I try to tell you. But, I will tell you that it is very simple, without all of the pomp and show of Catholicism, and EOC~I can assured you of that. We do so in spirit and in truth, without any show or pomp.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 09:58:48 by RB »

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #21 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 06:32:51 »
Believing in the teaching of praying to the "dead" for intercession is no different than believing that a young Jewish virgin could be impregnated by the Holy Spirit; that a burning bush talked; that several loaves and fishes fed thousands; that people were raised from the dead; that the blind could be given sight; that paralytics could be made to walk; that lepers could be cured; that water was turned into wine; that a man walked on the water; that this same man was crucified and rose from the dead, or a hundred other seemingly impossible things that happened that are written in the Scriptures.  None of us has personally seen such things, but we believe them all based on faith.  So given all those things I mentioned, I don't see how the orthodox Christian teaching on this issue can be considered by some to so far fetched a concept.
aren't all of those things you listed approved by God or even done by Him? except talking to dead people.

He tells us not to communicate with the dead AND He sent us Jesus to take the place of human priests and to be our intercessor.  God gave us a direct line to Him thru the Son.  And you reject that gift and go against His word by using dead people to replace Jesus as intercessor.  You tell Him that Jesus isn't enough, you need dead humans to be your intercessor.

The whole Christian belief system is built on one thing - faith. There is no difference between the things I described and certain teachings of one sect or another.  And Jesus is not replaced as intercessor between us and God in any way, shape, manner or form. In reality, you do the same thing when you ask someone else to pray fore you, you are asking them to intercede for you instead of going directly to Christ yourself to the Father. Now deal with it.

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #22 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 07:02:40 »
My twisted perversion of God's word?
You understood me correctly.
Quote
I say you have the twisted perversion, the one thought up by men, the new modern one that only came about hundreds upon hundreds of years after the original and true one that has, and still does, stand the test of time.
Again, you say, they say, and he said...means not one thing, but which one is supported by the testimony of God Himself?  The faithful in Jesus Christ test every spirit by the word of their God, not by dogmas of the Pharisees, and Scribes. The faithful have only the holy scriptures to guide them, and they have been here since Moses, way before Catholicism and EOC. If you expect us to believe a doctrine, or a commandment, then show us from the word of truth, or else, you are a intruder, a stranger that we will not follow. We follow the True Shepherd and Bishop of our souls. Your shepherds are thieves and robbers, and care not for the sheep.
Quote
This interpretation was arrived at by the Church as a whole, by the rightful leaders of it, the Bishops, called by God and placed in their postion to continue the teaching of His word down through time to this present day.
Again, your words to the faithful are lies, for our Bishop, Jesus Christ has warned us of false shepherds, who love to seat in Moses' seat~who make broad their phylacteries, and to be called Rabbi, Rabbi...or Pa Pa! If you truly desire to see your religion in the scriptures, then go to Matthew 23, that's one of the places that you cannot miss your religion...clear as the noon day sun shining it its full strength.
Quote
The fact is your interpretation of Gods word is so messed up, and that since none of you rejectionists can agree on any one biblical interpretation
Just because it is different than yours, (and we bless Almighty God that it is) does not mean that we are mess up.  We are only concern if we agree with God's testimony, man's interpretation (including our own!)  means nothing to the faithful in Jesus Christ, we are continually testing our own understanding with God's words and will until we leave this world. Your words quoted in the box sounds so much like the Pharisees in John chapter nine, when speaking to the blind man as he was telling them who healed him:
Quote
John 9:24-34~"Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples? Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out."
Words sound familiar? If not, just read your words again!
Quote
And Holy Tradition wasn't invented friend, it existed from the beginning and is how things were passed down by the Church before the Holy Scriptures were even put together in written form
It was invented, the faithful would NEVER used such an expression, and the reason being is this: we have the scriptures to support any doctrine and practice that we have. We live by the very same standard that our Lord did when he lived in this world~by every written word of God! Matthew 4:4, and if it is NOT written, then how can it be tested?  It cannot, and your false religion knows that! So, your followers just blindly follow your lying words, so that you can continue practice your religion, even though it has no support of God's testimony from his word that he has given to us for us to use as our only guide in worshiping him.
Quote
In the beginning, there was no kind of "altar call",
True, and neither do we practice this.  Also, there were no so-called priest sitting behind a wall with people coming and confessing their sins to them either~beside this, our scriptures tell us that we ALL are a holy priesthood and we can go directly to God through our Lord Jesus! Much different than what you folks believe. Your tier of authority sinks in God's holy nostrils. Time would fail me to mention all of your corruption.
Quote
(with all believing in the Real Presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ)
  Oh, there's another one! And you folks are proud of your corruption of God's word.
Quote
All this a far cry from how you worship.
You would never understand if I try to tell you. But, I will tell you that it is very simple, without all of the pomp and show of Catholicism, and EOC~I can assured you of that. We do so in spirit and in truth, without any show or pomp.

Nice try, but you remain obstinate and ignorant of the Church which Christ established here on earth and Christian history from the beginning.  Was there at one time  just One Universal (Catholic) Christian Church to which all believers belonged to? Yes! Did this same Church form the basic doctrines which all Christians believe? Yes! Was there a hierarchical  structure with clergy and Bishops in charge? Yes! Was it this same Church who held councils and synods that put together the New Testament Scriptures as we know them today? Yes! Did all this exist for hundreds upon hundreds of years before mere men changed things to suit their newfound beliefs? Yes!

But really, I say that you are guilty of all the things that you charge me/us with. I do not see it conducive to point out all your errors point by point, with true orthodox teaching backed by the Holy Scriptures. From the power Jesus Christ gave the leaders of his new Church via the "Apostolic Succession" doctrine to "bind and loose" things, to the inerrancy of their teaching, to the claim that Satan will never be able to overcome it.  Time and time again here at the Catholic section this has been done and every time people like you will not accept the true and holy biblical interpretation that we offer. In the end this becomes a useless exercise that will change no one's beliefs.

« Last Edit: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 07:06:16 by Ladonia »

LexKnight

  • Guest
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #23 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 08:56:12 »
Believing in the teaching of praying to the "dead" for intercession is no different than believing that a young Jewish virgin could be impregnated by the Holy Spirit; that a burning bush talked; that several loaves and fishes fed thousands; that people were raised from the dead; that the blind could be given sight; that paralytics could be made to walk; that lepers could be cured; that water was turned into wine; that a man walked on the water; that this same man was crucified and rose from the dead, or a hundred other seemingly impossible things that happened that are written in the Scriptures.  None of us has personally seen such things, but we believe them all based on faith.  So given all those things I mentioned, I don't see how the orthodox Christian teaching on this issue can be considered by some to so far fetched a concept.
aren't all of those things you listed approved by God or even done by Him? except talking to dead people.

He tells us not to communicate with the dead AND He sent us Jesus to take the place of human priests and to be our intercessor.  God gave us a direct line to Him thru the Son.  And you reject that gift and go against His word by using dead people to replace Jesus as intercessor.  You tell Him that Jesus isn't enough, you need dead humans to be your intercessor.

The whole Christian belief system is built on one thing - faith. There is no difference between the things I described and certain teachings of one sect or another.  And Jesus is not replaced as intercessor between us and God in any way, shape, manner or form. In reality, you do the same thing when you ask someone else to pray fore you, you are asking them to intercede for you instead of going directly to Christ yourself to the Father. Now deal with it.

Again, why would I have to appeal to dead people to intercede to Christ to go to the Father... when I can go to Christ myself...? You've yet to answer any of the points either myself or Red made, just accused the guy.

Biblical Interpretation... You mean going to dead people to face Christ because we, for some reason can't do it ourselves?

In all seriousness, think about it. What the Lord said about being the only way to the Father, the apostles calling Him our Advocate, why would we not go to Him directly? Why would He allow us to do so? He simply wouldn't.

You mentioned that it's like asking another to pray for you, but two points.

1. They should be praying with us, not necessarily for us.

2. I've been taught the error of relying on the prayers of others and not going to Him myself. We are responsible of our spiritual life.

I'll keep it local to intercession and won't mention the other errors, but it is an error regardless. Why would you, an individual focused on growth in the Spirit and Truth, not go to Him directly? He isn't distant, ya know.

Offline MeMyself

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15981
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Female
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #24 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 08:57:41 »
Believing in the teaching of praying to the "dead" for intercession is no different than believing that a young Jewish virgin could be impregnated by the Holy Spirit; that a burning bush talked; that several loaves and fishes fed thousands; that people were raised from the dead; that the blind could be given sight; that paralytics could be made to walk; that lepers could be cured; that water was turned into wine; that a man walked on the water; that this same man was crucified and rose from the dead, or a hundred other seemingly impossible things that happened that are written in the Scriptures. None of us has personally seen such things, but we believe them all based on faith. So given all those things I mentioned, I don't see how the orthodox Christian teaching on this issue can be considered by some to so far fetched a concept.

It is quite different actually.

Those things were done through a living God, not due to the intercession of dead human beings.

The Word tells us that Christ is our advocate on high with the Father, that HE intercedes for us...no need to hope in the "prayers" of the dead.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30579
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #25 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 09:25:10 »
Just read this on line

It is not wise for believers or unbelievers to try and communicate with the dead.  For one thing, the one that they are trying to call back from the dead may not be who they think it is.  There is a spiritual world out there full of demons who are fallen angels that chose to rebel with Satan and they love to mimic the deceased in order to have people fall into the trap of thinking that they are communicating with the dead.  This is truly dangerous territory for anyone to venture into and it is sin for unbelievers and for believers.

Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/can-people-communicate-with-the-dead-a-christian-perspective/#ixzz3kP1dP7T3

Offline MeMyself

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15981
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Female
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #26 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 09:46:14 »
Because you been indoctrinated in the doctrine... The fact is even if it isn't considered wrong, it's unnecessary as we already have a direct Advocate to the Father, Jesus Christ. Why would Mary, Patrick, Thomas, and all the others be necessary for intercession? It's foolish. Why would the Lord even allow that, considering how much He emphasized He I'd the way to the Father? The difference between them is all the other things you listed has Scriptural testimonies behind them. Intercession of the dead isn't. The one example was done through a witch, and it was to pronounce judgment on Saul. It's like having a Pope, it's foolish because the Lord lives...

Been trying to tell you, Lex, this is a really good post!  (Site keeps timing out for me...hope it goes through this time...)

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #27 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 10:03:22 »
Believing in the teaching of praying to the "dead" for intercession is no different than believing that a young Jewish virgin could be impregnated by the Holy Spirit; that a burning bush talked; that several loaves and fishes fed thousands; that people were raised from the dead; that the blind could be given sight; that paralytics could be made to walk; that lepers could be cured; that water was turned into wine; that a man walked on the water; that this same man was crucified and rose from the dead, or a hundred other seemingly impossible things that happened that are written in the Scriptures.  None of us has personally seen such things, but we believe them all based on faith.  So given all those things I mentioned, I don't see how the orthodox Christian teaching on this issue can be considered by some to so far fetched a concept.
aren't all of those things you listed approved by God or even done by Him? except talking to dead people.

He tells us not to communicate with the dead AND He sent us Jesus to take the place of human priests and to be our intercessor.  God gave us a direct line to Him thru the Son.  And you reject that gift and go against His word by using dead people to replace Jesus as intercessor.  You tell Him that Jesus isn't enough, you need dead humans to be your intercessor.

The whole Christian belief system is built on one thing - faith. There is no difference between the things I described and certain teachings of one sect or another.  And Jesus is not replaced as intercessor between us and God in any way, shape, manner or form. In reality, you do the same thing when you ask someone else to pray fore you, you are asking them to intercede for you instead of going directly to Christ yourself to the Father. Now deal with it.

Again, why would I have to appeal to dead people to intercede to Christ to go to the Father... when I can go to Christ myself...? You've yet to answer any of the points either myself or Red made, just accused the guy.

Biblical Interpretation... You mean going to dead people to face Christ because we, for some reason can't do it ourselves?

In all seriousness, think about it. What the Lord said about being the only way to the Father, the apostles calling Him our Advocate, why would we not go to Him directly? Why would He allow us to do so? He simply wouldn't.

You mentioned that it's like asking another to pray for you, but two points.

1. They should be praying with us, not necessarily for us.

2. I've been taught the error of relying on the prayers of others and not going to Him myself. We are responsible of our spiritual life.

I'll keep it local to intercession and won't mention the other errors, but it is an error regardless. Why would you, an individual focused on growth in the Spirit and Truth, not go to Him directly? He isn't distant, ya know.

So you don't agree that others can pray for us? Wow, that is an opinion quite to the contrary of many of the other non-orthodox Christians I have come into contact with.

I agree that we are responsible for our own spiritual lives, with us having that direct connection with Christ ourselves and you will find no argument from me there.

As for prayer, I personally go directly to God, invoking our Savior Jesus Christ, but I do not discount the Church's teaching on this issue. It is not some command by the Church that we must pray to the saints, only that we can. I see no problem here at all as long as a person does not get all wrapped up in some other person rather than Christ.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 10:08:57 by Ladonia »

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #28 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 10:07:51 »
Believing in the teaching of praying to the "dead" for intercession is no different than believing that a young Jewish virgin could be impregnated by the Holy Spirit; that a burning bush talked; that several loaves and fishes fed thousands; that people were raised from the dead; that the blind could be given sight; that paralytics could be made to walk; that lepers could be cured; that water was turned into wine; that a man walked on the water; that this same man was crucified and rose from the dead, or a hundred other seemingly impossible things that happened that are written in the Scriptures. None of us has personally seen such things, but we believe them all based on faith. So given all those things I mentioned, I don't see how the orthodox Christian teaching on this issue can be considered by some to so far fetched a concept.

It is quite different actually.

Those things were done through a living God, not due to the intercession of dead human beings.

The Word tells us that Christ is our advocate on high with the Father, that HE intercedes for us...no need to hope in the "prayers" of the dead.

No, I do not agree. Here you/we can believe in what we know is impossible things happening, yet discounting some other teaching which draws on those impossible things? You also persist in believing they are dead, which is just another disagreement we have.

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #29 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 10:13:40 »
Just read this on line

It is not wise for believers or unbelievers to try and communicate with the dead.  For one thing, the one that they are trying to call back from the dead may not be who they think it is.  There is a spiritual world out there full of demons who are fallen angels that chose to rebel with Satan and they love to mimic the deceased in order to have people fall into the trap of thinking that they are communicating with the dead.  This is truly dangerous territory for anyone to venture into and it is sin for unbelievers and for believers.

Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/can-people-communicate-with-the-dead-a-christian-perspective/#ixzz3kP1dP7T3


This teaching of the Church in no way says we are expecting to hear or communicate from the dead in some séance type manner. That is a false claim and you should know that.

Offline Ladonia

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2576
  • Manna: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #30 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 10:15:14 »
Because you been indoctrinated in the doctrine... The fact is even if it isn't considered wrong, it's unnecessary as we already have a direct Advocate to the Father, Jesus Christ. Why would Mary, Patrick, Thomas, and all the others be necessary for intercession? It's foolish. Why would the Lord even allow that, considering how much He emphasized He I'd the way to the Father? The difference between them is all the other things you listed has Scriptural testimonies behind them. Intercession of the dead isn't. The one example was done through a witch, and it was to pronounce judgment on Saul. It's like having a Pope, it's foolish because the Lord lives...

Been trying to tell you, Lex, this is a really good post!  (Site keeps timing out for me...hope it goes through this time...)

And you folks don't have doctrines that you follow either?

Offline Texas Conservative

  • 1st Day Texas Conservativite
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8601
  • Manna: 353
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #31 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 10:20:33 »

Believing in the teaching of praying to the "dead" for intercession is no different than believing that a young Jewish virgin could be impregnated by the Holy Spirit; that a burning bush talked; that several loaves and fishes fed thousands; that people were raised from the dead; that the blind could be given sight; that paralytics could be made to walk; that lepers could be cured; that water was turned into wine; that a man walked on the water; that this same man was crucified and rose from the dead, or a hundred other seemingly impossible things that happened that are written in the Scriptures.  None of us has personally seen such things, but we believe them all based on faith.  So given all those things I mentioned, I don't see how the orthodox Christian teaching on this issue can be considered by some to so far fetched a concept.
aren't all of those things you listed approved by God or even done by Him? except talking to dead people.

He tells us not to communicate with the dead AND He sent us Jesus to take the place of human priests and to be our intercessor.  God gave us a direct line to Him thru the Son.  And you reject that gift and go against His word by using dead people to replace Jesus as intercessor.  You tell Him that Jesus isn't enough, you need dead humans to be your intercessor.

The whole Christian belief system is built on one thing - faith. There is no difference between the things I described and certain teachings of one sect or another.  And Jesus is not replaced as intercessor between us and God in any way, shape, manner or form. In reality, you do the same thing when you ask someone else to pray fore you, you are asking them to intercede for you instead of going directly to Christ yourself to the Father. Now deal with it.

Again, why would I have to appeal to dead people to intercede to Christ to go to the Father... when I can go to Christ myself...? You've yet to answer any of the points either myself or Red made, just accused the guy.

Biblical Interpretation... You mean going to dead people to face Christ because we, for some reason can't do it ourselves?

In all seriousness, think about it. What the Lord said about being the only way to the Father, the apostles calling Him our Advocate, why would we not go to Him directly? Why would He allow us to do so? He simply wouldn't.

You mentioned that it's like asking another to pray for you, but two points.

1. They should be praying with us, not necessarily for us.

2. I've been taught the error of relying on the prayers of others and not going to Him myself. We are responsible of our spiritual life.

I'll keep it local to intercession and won't mention the other errors, but it is an error regardless. Why would you, an individual focused on growth in the Spirit and Truth, not go to Him directly? He isn't distant, ya know.

So you don't agree that others can pray for us? Wow, that is an opinion quite to the contrary of many of the other non-orthodox Christians I have come into contact with.

I agree that we are responsible for our own spiritual lives, with us having that direct connection with Christ ourselves and you will find no argument from me there.

As for prayer, I personally go directly to God, invoking our Savior Jesus Christ, but I do not discount the Church's teaching on this issue. It is not some command by the Church that we must pray to the saints, only that we can. I see no problem here at all as long as a person does not get all wrapped up in some other person rather than Christ.

I believe Lex is saying he doesn't agree with asking dead folks to pray for us.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6368
  • Manna: 339
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #32 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 10:49:39 »
Nice try, but you remain obstinate and ignorant of the Church which Christ, established here on earth and Christian history from the beginning.
Actually, Jesus did not established the church while here on this earth, it was long before the days of his flesh. I'll let you figure it out, since you think you know. I do understand Christian history based upon Luke's writing in the Acts of the apostles. I care little about the corruption that soon followed the apostles, when grievous wolves crept in unawares.
Quote
Acts 20:29-31~For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."
Again much of what Christ said in Matthew 23, when speaking of your fathers.
Quote
Was there at one time  just One Universal (Catholic) Christian Church to which all believers belonged to? Yes!
Yes, and they are known by their adherence to the scriptures, not by a name over their buildings/houses/temples of worship.
Quote
Was there a hierarchical  structure with clergy and Bishops in charge?
NO! The elders, which were older males took the oversight in teachings and guiding the sheep. Far from the corrupt tier of authority that is practiced by the whore of Revelation, which is NOT limited to Catholicism, but who are far more guilty than most. 
Quote
But really, I say that you are guilty of all the things that you charge me/us with. I do not see it conducive to point out all your errors point by point, with true orthodox teaching backed by the Holy Scriptures by the Holy Scriptures.
Who are kidding? Only yourself, not the faithful.
Quote
Time and time again here at the Catholic section this has been done and every time people like you will not accept the true and holy biblical interpretation that we offer
No one here, with the exception of Catholica, even attempts to use the word of God in support of their teachings. You saying this proves nothing, and the reason why, is that it just is not so.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 15:31:35 by RB »

Offline MeMyself

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15981
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Female
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #33 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 10:54:45 »

Believing in the teaching of praying to the "dead" for intercession is no different than believing that a young Jewish virgin could be impregnated by the Holy Spirit; that a burning bush talked; that several loaves and fishes fed thousands; that people were raised from the dead; that the blind could be given sight; that paralytics could be made to walk; that lepers could be cured; that water was turned into wine; that a man walked on the water; that this same man was crucified and rose from the dead, or a hundred other seemingly impossible things that happened that are written in the Scriptures.  None of us has personally seen such things, but we believe them all based on faith.  So given all those things I mentioned, I don't see how the orthodox Christian teaching on this issue can be considered by some to so far fetched a concept.
aren't all of those things you listed approved by God or even done by Him? except talking to dead people.

He tells us not to communicate with the dead AND He sent us Jesus to take the place of human priests and to be our intercessor.  God gave us a direct line to Him thru the Son.  And you reject that gift and go against His word by using dead people to replace Jesus as intercessor.  You tell Him that Jesus isn't enough, you need dead humans to be your intercessor.

The whole Christian belief system is built on one thing - faith. There is no difference between the things I described and certain teachings of one sect or another.  And Jesus is not replaced as intercessor between us and God in any way, shape, manner or form. In reality, you do the same thing when you ask someone else to pray fore you, you are asking them to intercede for you instead of going directly to Christ yourself to the Father. Now deal with it.

Again, why would I have to appeal to dead people to intercede to Christ to go to the Father... when I can go to Christ myself...? You've yet to answer any of the points either myself or Red made, just accused the guy.

Biblical Interpretation... You mean going to dead people to face Christ because we, for some reason can't do it ourselves?

In all seriousness, think about it. What the Lord said about being the only way to the Father, the apostles calling Him our Advocate, why would we not go to Him directly? Why would He allow us to do so? He simply wouldn't.

You mentioned that it's like asking another to pray for you, but two points.

1. They should be praying with us, not necessarily for us.

2. I've been taught the error of relying on the prayers of others and not going to Him myself. We are responsible of our spiritual life.

I'll keep it local to intercession and won't mention the other errors, but it is an error regardless. Why would you, an individual focused on growth in the Spirit and Truth, not go to Him directly? He isn't distant, ya know.

So you don't agree that others can pray for us? Wow, that is an opinion quite to the contrary of many of the other non-orthodox Christians I have come into contact with.

I agree that we are responsible for our own spiritual lives, with us having that direct connection with Christ ourselves and you will find no argument from me there.

As for prayer, I personally go directly to God, invoking our Savior Jesus Christ, but I do not discount the Church's teaching on this issue. It is not some command by the Church that we must pray to the saints, only that we can. I see no problem here at all as long as a person does not get all wrapped up in some other person rather than Christ.

I believe Lex is saying he doesn't agree with asking dead folks to pray for us.

 ::nodding::


LexKnight

  • Guest
Re: Prayer to the dead
« Reply #34 on: Mon Aug 31, 2015 - 11:12:23 »
Believing in the teaching of praying to the "dead" for intercession is no different than believing that a young Jewish virgin could be impregnated by the Holy Spirit; that a burning bush talked; that several loaves and fishes fed thousands; that people were raised from the dead; that the blind could be given sight; that paralytics could be made to walk; that lepers could be cured; that water was turned into wine; that a man walked on the water; that this same man was crucified and rose from the dead, or a hundred other seemingly impossible things that happened that are written in the Scriptures.  None of us has personally seen such things, but we believe them all based on faith.  So given all those things I mentioned, I don't see how the orthodox Christian teaching on this issue can be considered by some to so far fetched a concept.
aren't all of those things you listed approved by God or even done by Him? except talking to dead people.

He tells us not to communicate with the dead AND He sent us Jesus to take the place of human priests and to be our intercessor.  God gave us a direct line to Him thru the Son.  And you reject that gift and go against His word by using dead people to replace Jesus as intercessor.  You tell Him that Jesus isn't enough, you need dead humans to be your intercessor.

The whole Christian belief system is built on one thing - faith. There is no difference between the things I described and certain teachings of one sect or another.  And Jesus is not replaced as intercessor between us and God in any way, shape, manner or form. In reality, you do the same thing when you ask someone else to pray fore you, you are asking them to intercede for you instead of going directly to Christ yourself to the Father. Now deal with it.

Again, why would I have to appeal to dead people to intercede to Christ to go to the Father... when I can go to Christ myself...? You've yet to answer any of the points either myself or Red made, just accused the guy.

Biblical Interpretation... You mean going to dead people to face Christ because we, for some reason can't do it ourselves?

In all seriousness, think about it. What the Lord said about being the only way to the Father, the apostles calling Him our Advocate, why would we not go to Him directly? Why would He allow us to do so? He simply wouldn't.

You mentioned that it's like asking another to pray for you, but two points.

1. They should be praying with us, not necessarily for us.

2. I've been taught the error of relying on the prayers of others and not going to Him myself. We are responsible of our spiritual life.

I'll keep it local to intercession and won't mention the other errors, but it is an error regardless. Why would you, an individual focused on growth in the Spirit and Truth, not go to Him directly? He isn't distant, ya know.

So you don't agree that others can pray for us? Wow, that is an opinion quite to the contrary of many of the other non-orthodox Christians I have come into contact with.

I agree that we are responsible for our own spiritual lives, with us having that direct connection with Christ ourselves and you will find no argument from me there.

As for prayer, I personally go directly to God, invoking our Savior Jesus Christ, but I do not discount the Church's teaching on this issue. It is not some command by the Church that we must pray to the saints, only that we can. I see no problem here at all as long as a person does not get all wrapped up in some other person rather than Christ.

In regards to the red: Really? That's what you got out of it? How can I even take you seriously if you're going to stretch a gnat into a camel and misinterpret my words?

In regards to the blue: It's the fact that the Roman Church IS teaching this. It is a practice as old as the papacy itself, doing the hail marys, wearing the artifacts of the Saints and calling on their assistance, having a specific prayer directed to Mary as if she's the queen of heaven (ludicrous). Your church not only teach these things, they endorse it to be ingrained in the lifestyle of her members, and all of it rooted back in pagan practices and traditions. It simply doesn't match the nature of the Lord. Shouldn't this cause serious examination into the doctrine of the Roman Church? And if it doesn't match the Lord, shouldn't it be called out for what it is and dropped?

 

     
anything