GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: PURGATORY  (Read 47988 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gillian

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • Manna: 6
PURGATORY
« on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 19:41:54 »
PURGATORY is it supported in scripture? Where is it taught, what passages?

Christian Forums and Message Board

PURGATORY
« on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 19:41:54 »

Offline Gillian

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • Manna: 6
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #1 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 19:45:33 »
I'll let Luther say it for Me:


Luther:

PURGATORY

Augustine, Ambrose, and Jerome held nothing at all of purgatory. Gregory, being in the nighttime deceived by a vision, taught something of purgatory, whereas God openly commanded that we should search out and inquire nothing of spirits, but of Moses and the prophets. Therefore we must not admit Gregory's opinion on this point; the day of the Lord will show and declare the same, when it will be revealed by fire.

This sentence, "And their works do follow them," must not be understood of purgatory, but of the doctrine of good works, or of godly and true Christians, and of heretics. Arius, the heretic, has had his judgment; the fire of faith has declared it. For the last day will discover and declare all things.

God has, in his Word, laid before us two ways; one which by faith leads to salvation, - the other, by unbelief, to damnation.

As for purgatory, no place in Scripture makes mention thereof, neither must we any way allow it; for it darkens and undervalues the grace, benefits, and merits of our blessed, sweet Saviour Christ Jesus.

The bounds of purgatory extend not beyond this world; for here in this life the upright, good, and godly Christians are well and soundly scoured and purged.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #1 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 19:45:33 »

Robert Pate

  • Guest
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #2 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 20:18:28 »
Purgatory was conceived by the Catholic church as a way to exploit its members and fleece them out of thousands of dollars.  You usually have to pay the priest to have someone prayed out of purgatory.  I knew of a woman that payed $20,000 to have her deceased husband prayed out of purgatory.  Why the DA doesn't arrest these priest is a mystery to me.

Offline Gillian

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • Manna: 6
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 20:47:23 »
Purgatory was conceived by the Catholic church as a way to exploit its members and fleece them out of thousands of dollars.  You usually have to pay the priest to have someone prayed out of purgatory.  I knew of a woman that payed $20,000 to have her deceased husband prayed out of purgatory.  Why the DA doesn't arrest these priest is a mystery to me.
"When a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs." Well there is another way now.

The pope is offering special indulgences to those who can make a pilgrimage to Lourdes, France!
Less time in purgatory!! Hurry to make your travel arrangements because this offer will only last for the next year!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/06/wpope106.xml

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 20:47:23 »

Robert Pate

  • Guest
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 21:07:29 »
Gillian

I hope that the pope is a fast runner....  I better not say it.... they may kick me off of the forum.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 21:07:29 »



Offline kensington

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6816
  • Manna: 356
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #5 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 22:33:37 »
Purgatory was conceived by the Catholic church as a way to exploit its members and fleece them out of thousands of dollars.  You usually have to pay the priest to have someone prayed out of purgatory.  I knew of a woman that payed $20,000 to have her deceased husband prayed out of purgatory.  Why the DA doesn't arrest these priest is a mystery to me.

This is true, and if you look it up in the Catholic Encyclopedia it says it is an "Idea" that was formed, and is not actually backed by any scripture.

Some try to use Corinthians and the "testing" by fire of that which was built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ... however,  that passage does not imply it is a place or a length of time, but rather an instant test by the Holy Spirit of the things we have done "for the name of Christ" and has nothing to do with sins, repented or not. Not as I read it.

marc

  • Guest
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #6 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 22:47:19 »
As to the original question, it strikes me that the Catholics on this forum (you'd have to ask them--I'm no Catholic and don't believe in Purgatory) would say that it doesn't need to be in scripture, that other authorities exist.

Offline kensington

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6816
  • Manna: 356
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #7 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 23:00:27 »
As to the original question, it strikes me that the Catholics on this forum (you'd have to ask them--I'm no Catholic and don't believe in Purgatory) would say that it doesn't need to be in scripture, that other authorities exist.

Huh? If the WORD OF GOD is not the authority... I don't see how anything else can be.

Jesus Himself is called "The WORD OF GOD"...  If it does not line up with the word of God, it is not doctrine. Besides that, the idea of Purgatory... denies faith. It takes faith to KNOW that you are redeemed and saved for eternity and that there is no other purification save the Blood of Jesus Christ to get you into Heaven for all eternity. If you ask me. Did you ask me?  ::tippinghat::

Offline James Rondon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 19760
  • Manna: 1746
  • Gender: Male
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #8 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 23:24:45 »
PURGATORY is it supported in scripture?

No.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12462
  • Manna: 353
  • Gender: Male
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #9 on: Wed Mar 05, 2008 - 01:15:58 »
As to the original question, it strikes me that the Catholics on this forum (you'd have to ask them--I'm no Catholic and don't believe in Purgatory) would say that it doesn't need to be in scripture, that other authorities exist.
I'm not either, but I've had a little of this conversation here on this board and that is one of the things that was said.

Another was a quote from Macabbees that had to do with offering sacrifices for the dead.

Also, "no unclean thing can enter heaven."  Therefore, purgatory must exist because no one achieves perfection in this lifetime.

Eh, I don't want to try to defend this position.  I don't believe in a purgatory.

Offline Bonnie

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8593
  • Manna: 359
  • Gender: Female
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #10 on: Wed Mar 05, 2008 - 06:34:50 »
No, it's a false man made doctrine. A delusion that goes against the need for Salvation.

Offline broach972

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Manna: 41
  • Gender: Male
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #11 on: Wed Mar 05, 2008 - 06:47:51 »
 ::eatingpopcorn:

Robert Pate

  • Guest
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #12 on: Wed Mar 05, 2008 - 09:10:32 »
Purgatory is just one of dozens of false doctrines in the Catholic church. How about praying to the dead saints?   ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12462
  • Manna: 353
  • Gender: Male
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #13 on: Wed Mar 05, 2008 - 09:50:21 »

Offline kensington

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6816
  • Manna: 356
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #14 on: Wed Mar 05, 2008 - 10:44:55 »
Purgatory is just one of dozens of false doctrines in the Catholic church. How about praying to the dead saints?   ::eatingpopcorn:

I spend as much time as I can daily in prayer to God, and in His word, I don't really think praying to dead people will behoove me anything. 

I've actually had more answered prayers than my friend who prays to Mary daily.  God does not disappoint.

Offline broach972

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Manna: 41
  • Gender: Male
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #15 on: Wed Mar 05, 2008 - 15:33:42 »
 ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline Nyoka

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 371
  • Manna: 38
  • Gender: Female
  • we walk by faith
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #16 on: Wed Mar 05, 2008 - 16:15:16 »
Jesus paid for our sins on the cross.  If there was a purgatory then that means that there is something that He didn't pay for on the cross and in His death. Purgatory makes salvation by works not by faith.   

Offline kensington

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6816
  • Manna: 356
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #17 on: Wed Mar 05, 2008 - 16:24:52 »
Actually, Purgatory would mean that your salvation isn't by works at all, even past death...  But, that what Christ did was not enough to get you to Heaven.  It's utter nonsense.  ::announcment::

Offline Bonnie

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8593
  • Manna: 359
  • Gender: Female
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #18 on: Wed Mar 05, 2008 - 18:06:19 »
Solomon said the dead know not anything.

Offline Gillian

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • Manna: 6
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #19 on: Wed Mar 05, 2008 - 21:09:05 »
As to the original question, it strikes me that the Catholics on this forum (you'd have to ask them--I'm no Catholic and don't believe in Purgatory) would say that it doesn't need to be in scripture, that other authorities exist.

Huh? If the WORD OF GOD is not the authority... I don't see how anything else can be.

Jesus Himself is called "The WORD OF GOD"...  If it does not line up with the word of God, it is not doctrine. Besides that, the idea of Purgatory... denies faith. It takes faith to KNOW that you are redeemed and saved for eternity and that there is no other purification save the Blood of Jesus Christ to get you into Heaven for all eternity. If you ask me. Did you ask me?  ::tippinghat::
Actually RC's believe in "Prima Scriptura" Which means it is primarily scripture but, also the Pope and RC traditions have equal authority. Also the RCC does not say the Pope is infallible, only when he speaks from his chair, otherwise he is like any other man. But when he is speaking from his chain, his words are just as authoritative as scripture, and if his interpretation is different then the common interpretation, then the Pope's remains, because he is the Vicar of Christ. I am not RC, I have done extensive research into this, very interesting indeed!

k-pappy

  • Guest
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #20 on: Wed Mar 05, 2008 - 23:48:05 »
The idea from purgatory came from one verse in the book of Maccabees.  They offered money to a priest to offer prayers for the dead.  From that one verse an entire doctrine was born.  There are no other verses or passages that support the idea of purgatory.

Jesus did it all.

In Christ,
KP

Offline broach972

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Manna: 41
  • Gender: Male
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #21 on: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 06:59:49 »
Watching you guys post is better than going to the movies....something along the lines of a slapstick comedy...maybe it is time for me to jump in...

 ::eatingpopcorn:
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 07:15:53 by broach972 »

Offline broach972

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Manna: 41
  • Gender: Male
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #22 on: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 07:14:58 »
I found the following exchanges between those that challenged the idea of Purgatory and J. Salza.  It is quite interesting.

Kevin: I have reviewed your page on purgatory and find it to be full of false teaching. For example, you say on your website: “Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for nearly 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 07:36:34 by broach972 »

Offline Bonnie

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8593
  • Manna: 359
  • Gender: Female
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #23 on: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 07:15:10 »
Watching you guys post is better than going to the movies....something along the lines of a slapstick comedy...

 ::eatingpopcorn:



That's too bad you feel that way.  It's a very serious matter - our souls may depend on it. ::groupprayer::

Offline Bonnie

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8593
  • Manna: 359
  • Gender: Female
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #24 on: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 07:40:59 »
The Bible teaches that if you die in your sins you will be resurrected in them. To support a falsehood giving people hope of living like devils on earth, trodding down the work done on the Cross and calling it of none effect is evil and taking people to hell.
The devil is very old also!  He taught Eve if she sinned, "she would surely not die."  He is a liar and the father of it...

Offline broach972

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Manna: 41
  • Gender: Male
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #25 on: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 08:18:28 »
The Bible teaches that if you die in your sins you will be resurrected in them. To support a falsehood giving people hope of living like devils on earth, trodding down the work done on the Cross and calling it of none effect is evil and taking people to hell.
The devil is very old also!  He taught Eve if she sinned, "she would surely not die."  He is a liar and the father of it...

Again, you are way off.  This is not what is taught.

Offline broach972

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Manna: 41
  • Gender: Male
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #26 on: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 09:34:06 »
Actually RC's believe in "Prima Scriptura" Which means it is primarily scripture but, also the Pope and RC traditions have equal authority. Also the RCC does not say the Pope is infallible, only when he speaks from his chair, otherwise he is like any other man. But when he is speaking from his chain, his words are just as authoritative as scripture, and if his interpretation is different then the common interpretation, then the Pope's remains, because he is the Vicar of Christ. I am not RC, I have done extensive research into this, very interesting indeed!


Actually, you are not exactly correct.  I would look at the following website to get an idea of what Papal Infallibility really means:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

Offline broach972

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Manna: 41
  • Gender: Male
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #27 on: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 09:43:07 »
Jesus paid for our sins on the cross.  If there was a purgatory then that means that there is something that He didn't pay for on the cross and in His death. Purgatory makes salvation by works not by faith.   

Actually, you are wrong in this assumption.  The idea of Purgatory does not negate what He did for us on the Cross and in His death.

The resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And one cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The critic has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).

Offline broach972

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Manna: 41
  • Gender: Male
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #28 on: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 09:48:15 »
The idea from purgatory came from one verse in the book of Maccabees.  They offered money to a priest to offer prayers for the dead.  From that one verse an entire doctrine was born.  There are no other verses or passages that support the idea of purgatory.

Jesus did it all.

In Christ,
KP

Actually, you are not correct.

Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Offline Bonnie

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8593
  • Manna: 359
  • Gender: Female
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #29 on: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 17:55:36 »
Jesus paid for our sins on the cross.  If there was a purgatory then that means that there is something that He didn't pay for on the cross and in His death. Purgatory makes salvation by works not by faith.   

Actually, you are wrong in this assumption.  The idea of Purgatory does not negate what He did for us on the Cross and in His death.

The resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And one cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The critic has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).



It's pretty obvious that you believe the Catholic doctrine.  Not many are ever swayed from one doctrine to another especially on the internet.  I don't want to waste time arguing over it.

Offline Gillian

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • Manna: 6
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #30 on: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 21:08:30 »
Quote
The resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory
Um?....biblical doctrine? Since  you say it is biblical, prove it with scripture.




Offline Gillian

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • Manna: 6
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #31 on: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 21:11:46 »
Jesus paid for our sins on the cross.  If there was a purgatory then that means that there is something that He didn't pay for on the cross and in His death. Purgatory makes salvation by works not by faith.   

Actually, you are wrong in this assumption.  The idea of Purgatory does not negate what He did for us on the Cross and in His death.

The resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And one cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The critic has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).



It's pretty obvious that you believe the Catholic doctrine.  Not many are ever swayed from one doctrine to another especially on the internet.  I don't want to waste time arguing over it.

I have to agree with you, the scriptures used are taken out of context. But when applied in their context, they say something much different.

Offline Gillian

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • Manna: 6
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #32 on: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 21:17:56 »
broach972,
Can you explain to me the Purgatory of "Limbus Infantum?" Please justify it with scripture!

Briefly, It is a place where infants and small children are for eternity, separate from God and heaven. Care to elaborate?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12462
  • Manna: 353
  • Gender: Male
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #33 on: Thu Mar 06, 2008 - 21:26:33 »
broach972,
Can you explain to me the Purgatory of "Limbus Infantum?" Please justify it with scripture!

Briefly, It is a place where infants and small children are for eternity, separate from God and heaven. Care to elaborate?
The Catholic church recanted Limbo.  They don't believe in it anymore.

Robert Pate

  • Guest
Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #34 on: Fri Mar 07, 2008 - 08:13:57 »
Broach

Your explanation of purgatory is like that popcorn that you were eating.  Mostly holes, air and spongy.