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Offline kensington

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #105 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 22:08:02 »
First of all, I don't need a catechism, I don't need another book to tell me how to read the Bible, I can read the Bible for myself. The original was written on a third grade reading level... it's basic and simple truth.

Purgatory is a lie. There is no purgatory... there is the "Cleansing blood of Jesus that CONTINUES to cleanse us until the day we will see Him face to face.  And that moment we will be perfect like He is perfect.... No purgatory. NONE.

It's not there, it does NOT exist.  Never did, never will.


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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #105 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 22:08:02 »

Offline kensington

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #106 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 22:12:27 »
PS... I Corinthians 3:11-15.... That IS NOT purgatory..  that is a testing by the fire of the Holy Spirit of the things we have done which are built on a foundation of Christ.

It has nothing to do with a cleansing of our souls or anything like that. It has to do with the HOLY SPIRIT testing all our actions, it will take an instant, and it will be over with. It is not a place, it is not purgatory... It will reveal if our motives of works was of self or due to Jesus,  what is of Christ will remain, what is not will burn "INSTANTLY" away.


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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #106 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 22:12:27 »

Robert Pate

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #107 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 08:29:37 »
The doctrine of purgatory is an attack on Christ and his gospel.

God has either dealt with the sins of humanity in the person of Jesus Christ or he hasn't.  If you believe that he hasn't, then you do not have faith in Christ and his gospel.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #108 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 09:02:40 »
First of all, I don't need a catechism, I don't need another book to tell me how to read the Bible, I can read the Bible for myself. The original was written on a third grade reading level... it's basic and simple truth.
If that is true, then why is the protestant world divided into hundreds of "denominations" that can't agree on doctirine? If its so "simple", why do you guys constantly argue over what it says?

And apparently you don't understand what "Catechism" means. It simply means "teaching". A Catechumen is one who is being "taught". Basically, this is the Church doing whart Jesus commanded. Jesus did not say "Go forth into the world and write epistles". He said to TEACH and BAPTISE. That is what the Catechism is, the TEACHING which brings CLARITY to God's Word, something you are obviously in dire need of.

Purgatory is a lie. There is no purgatory...
So you call me a liar. Well, when all else fails, go on the attack, eh?
..there is the "Cleansing blood of Jesus that CONTINUES to cleanse us until the day we will see Him face to face.  And that moment we will be perfect like He is perfect.... No purgatory. NONE. It's not there, it does NOT exist.  Never did, never will.
Sorry, but the final sanctification will take place at your death (that is, assuming you step onto the UP elevator and not the DOWN elevator, hehehe.)


[/quote]

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #108 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 09:02:40 »

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #109 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 09:11:29 »
The doctrine of purgatory is an attack on Christ and his gospel.
You mean its an attack on YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Gospel, which is obviously in error, since the Truth is never an attack.
God has either dealt with the sins of humanity in the person of Jesus Christ or he hasn't.  If you believe that he hasn't, then you do not have faith in Christ and his gospel.
Yes He has - Yes I DO - and that has nothing to do with Purgatory. As I already said, it is not a place or a work on our part, but merely a purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven, and is experienced only by those who die in God’s grace and friendship. This final purification of the elect is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.

Again, the purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us at the moment of death, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #109 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 09:11:29 »



Robert Pate

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #110 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 12:55:17 »
THE GOSPEL

Romans 5:19  "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners, so as by the obedience of one (Christ) many shall be MADE righteous.

Please notice that this scripture does not say that many would become righteous.  The emphasis is (MADE)  righteous.

Christ as the new Adam and representative of the human race has come into the world to do for us that which we are not capable of doing for ourselves because we are in a fallen condition.

By his sinless life he has offered everything to God that God's Holy Law demands.  He has done this in our name and on our behalf.  Christ is our righteousness.  We don't have any because we are still in our Adamic bodies.

By his death on the cross he has crucified the old Adamic race and has put it to death.  The apostle Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live)  This is what Paul meant.

The gospel is the means by which Christ justifies us.  This salvation is totally outside of us, we had nothing to do with it. Yet we are the benefactors because he was acting and doing for us.  In Jesus Christ we have been MADE perfect and complete in him.

This is the Protestant gospel.  What is your gospel Catholic Crusader?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #111 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 13:59:51 »
Quote
Quote
Quote
Does Jesus blood cleanse us from all unrighteousness?  And, if so, what need is there for further cleansing?

Yes it does. And all purgatory is is the completion of the lifelong process of sanctification. Thats it. It is not a third place or a second chance.

1 = We are sinners roght up to death.
2 = The souls in heaven are perfected.

1 + 2 = There must be a final sanctification between death and heaven. But, it is NOT a work on our part: It is ALL due to the Blood of Christ and the Sacrfice on Calvary.
Thanks for presenting this as a formal logical argument.  ::smile::

I'll accept both of the two premises stated as is, though I think we define perfect differently.

I don't draw the same conclusion:
1 + 2 = Death effects a change on the soul which renders it perfect.

Note Jesus words:
Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third [day] I shall be perfected.

Check the Greek word as well.  Perfection is inherent in death, and the two concepts are so intertwined  that they virtually share the word (teleios).

Try this:

3 = Suffering will work us to perfection
4 = Death is the natural end of suffering

3 + 4 = Death is the natural end of perfection.

Jarrod
No rebuttal?  No response?  No comment?

No appropriate canned response?  No actual apologetics?

 ::watchingclock::

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #112 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 14:21:34 »
THE GOSPEL

Romans 5:19  "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners, so as by the obedience of one (Christ) many shall be MADE righteous.

Please notice that this scripture does not say that many would become righteous.  The emphasis is (MADE)  righteous......
So does that mean you are righteous right now? You are perfect RIGHT NOW? I don't think so. The fact that you are a Christian (and I am too, by the way) does not insulate you from sin and suffering. So all those scriptures you quoted don't have one iota to do with the meaning and TRUTH of the teaching on Purgatory.

As for my Gospel, I have the same 27 books in my New Testament as you do in yours, thank you very much. And when asked if I have "been saved", I give the proper response:

"I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in me."

Robert Pate

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #113 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 15:01:15 »
Catholic Crusader

All that Christ has done is to our account, we do not have it now. It will be imputed to us. Not infused into us.  Colossians 3:4 says, "When Christ, who is our life shall appear, then shall you also appear with him in glory."  Romans 8:22-23 says, "For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.  And not only they but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves waiting for the adoption, to wit the redemption of our body."

Christ lived a perfect life. We are saved by that life.  He lived it in our name and on our behalf just like we lived it ourselves.  He is the new Adam and representative of the human race.  All that Christ is and all that he has done is ours by faith alone.  He is God's great gift to humanity.  Romans 5:15-18 Christ is referred to as the gift of God 5 times.  A gift cannot be earned or deserved it can only be received. 


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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #114 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 16:36:40 »
Catholic Crusader

All that Christ has done is to our account, we do not have it now. It will be imputed to us. Not infused into us.  Colossians 3:4 says, "When Christ, who is our life shall appear, then shall you also appear with him in glory."  Romans 8:22-23 says, "For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.  And not only they but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves waiting for the adoption, to wit the redemption of our body."

Christ lived a perfect life. We are saved by that life.  He lived it in our name and on our behalf just like we lived it ourselves.  He is the new Adam and representative of the human race.  All that Christ is and all that he has done is ours by faith alone.  He is God's great gift to humanity.  Romans 5:15-18 Christ is referred to as the gift of God 5 times.  A gift cannot be earned or deserved it can only be received. 
Well, "faith alone" is food for another thread, no doubt. Purgatory has nothing to do with works or earning anything.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I'm saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the "burning" ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God.

This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God's love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - "purged" - away in the fire of Gods love. There's an old children's song, "God loves you just the way you are, but much too much to let you stay that way." Ahh, yes. Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.

Offline kensington

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #115 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 16:51:54 »
First of all, I did not call you a liar, I said "Purgatory is a lie"... I said it before you came here, and since you didn't invent Purgatory I did not attack you or call you a liar. You believe a lie that is all.

Second... WRITING YOUR WORDS BIGGER doesn't mean you know more or that you win.  It just means you want attention.

Third... the bottom line on Purgatory is this..

II Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

 


Notice is says....  "given us EVERYTHING".... it's done. He did it. 
By His power, He has already PROVIDED EVERYTHING we need for life and "godliness".  No Purgatory needed.  Nothing added, nothing more than the cleansing power of the Blood of Jesus christ.

The doctrine of purgatory is a lie.


Offline spurly

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #116 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 16:53:29 »
I haven't read the entire thread, but just real quick for those three who said Purgatory is supported in Scripture, what scriptures support it?  In what scripture do we find purgatory?

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #117 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 16:54:11 »
II Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

 


Notice is says....  "given us EVERYTHING".... it's done. He did it. 
By His power, He has already PROVIDED EVERYTHING we need for life and "godliness".  No Purgatory needed.  Nothing added, nothing more than the cleansing power of the Blood of Jesus christ.

The doctrine of purgatory is a lie.



Very well said.

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #118 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 17:18:42 »
I haven't read the entire thread, but just real quick for those three who said Purgatory is supported in Scripture, what scriptures support it?  In what scripture do we find purgatory?


Maybe this link will help you, since I am obviously not doing a very good job:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

Also, I thought my previous post put it in an interesting perspective also. (Hey, I like my posts.  ::smile::  )
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 19:53:02 by Catholic Crusader »

Robert Pate

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #119 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 17:20:39 »
Catholic Crusader

No need for purgatory.  Jesus Christ has overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil.

This is why God resurrected him and has taken him to heaven.  It's over!  The battle has been fought and won.  Christ is victorious.  Because he is our representative and our humanity is in him we too can claim the victory.

Colossians 2:15  "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly triumphing over them."

1st Corinthians 15:53-54  "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Then shall it be brought to pass the saying that is written.  DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."

Romans 4:4  "But to him that worketh not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness."

Let him who has ears to hear, hear.

 

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #120 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 17:20:44 »
Catholic Crusader

All that Christ has done is to our account, we do not have it now. It will be imputed to us. Not infused into us.  Colossians 3:4 says, "When Christ, who is our life shall appear, then shall you also appear with him in glory."  Romans 8:22-23 says, "For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.  And not only they but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves waiting for the adoption, to wit the redemption of our body."

Christ lived a perfect life. We are saved by that life.  He lived it in our name and on our behalf just like we lived it ourselves.  He is the new Adam and representative of the human race.  All that Christ is and all that he has done is ours by faith alone.  He is God's great gift to humanity.  Romans 5:15-18 Christ is referred to as the gift of God 5 times.  A gift cannot be earned or deserved it can only be received. 
Well, "faith alone" is food for another thread, no doubt. Purgatory has nothing to do with works or earning anything.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I'm saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the "burning" ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God.

This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God's love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - "purged" - away in the fire of Gods love. There's an old children's song, "God loves you just the way you are, but much too much to let you stay that way." Ahh, yes. Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.


Nicely said...quite impressive

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #121 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 17:25:10 »
I haven't read the entire thread, but just real quick for those three who said Purgatory is supported in Scripture, what scriptures support it?  In what scripture do we find purgatory?


Maybe this link will help you, since I am obviously not doing a very good job:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

Also, I though my previous post put it in an interesting perspective also. (Hey, I like my posts.  ::smile::  )


You have done an excellent job.  I have been quite impressed with our arguments.  Well done!

Unfortunately, I think people have a difficult time understanding Catholic theology.  If an idea or concept is deemed "Catholic," then it is automatically discounted.  I find it ironic that Orthodox Christianity shares much of the same theology.  We just take the hits for it.

Offline kensington

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #122 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 17:28:04 »
Romans 4:4  "But to him that worketh not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness."

Let him who has ears to hear, hear.


This is so true... its accurate, to the point and backed up with scripture. 

They do not have ears to hear is the only reason they don't receive that JESUS DID IT ALL.  ::tippinghat::


Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #123 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 17:32:31 »

They do not have ears to hear is the only reason they don't receive that JESUS DID IT ALL.  ::tippinghat::



And the idea of Purgatory in no way undermines this....

Oh, I hear quite well thank you.... ::tippinghat::

Offline Alethes

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #124 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 17:34:33 »
Okay...you asked for it....If some of this is over your head, just let me know.   ::smile::


Broach --- Purgatory does goes over my head, and over God's Head as well.  ::smile::

All you did was give me the Catholic version of the Bible, which you copied and pasted from http://en.allexperts.com/q/Catholics-955/x-26.htm which ignores the context and is therefore wrongly divided.

It appears they left out Jesus Christ, the subject from Genesis to Revelation.  Jesus Christ, the  one who suffered and died and paid the full price/penalty for man's sins once and for all ... "it is finished," ... and when God finishes somthing you can bet your bottom dollar that  IT IS FINIDHED ... and there is no ifs, ands, or buts about it.  And God needs no extra penance from anyone.  All God requires from us for salvation  is Romans 10:9:  "If thou shalt confess the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

There is no purgatory or so-called temporary torture chamber with poor, suffering,  floating souls as a so-called act of God's love.  "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting [eternal] life" (John 3:16).   Jesus Christ did the suffering for us.  He redeemed us, justified us through His blood.  All who believe Romans 10:9 are born-again of God's Spirit and are made the righteousness of God in Christ.  And we can't get any more righteous than the righteousness of God!  We are heaven-bound and all hell can keep us from getting there.  ::smile::

Offline kensington

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #125 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 17:34:46 »
BTW... something VERY strange about this doctrine of purgatory (that is false btw) is that they have taught for generations you "GO TO PURGATORY" it is a place. And those who love you pray you out. HOW? 

How can you pray someone out?  NOW... it is being implied that Oh... no... its an instant thing, and that the testing of the fire of the Holy Spirit is this purgatory they speak of, not a place, instant.

Then, if it is an instant testing, WHY the need to be prayed out?  Why does my FIL have at least four offers on his table to pray his loved ones out of purgatory for an offering of $150.00  (that is the standard going rate for a mass with your loved ones named mentioned as in purgatory)

I've seen them, I've discussed them with my husband who was raised Catholic and who's family remains catholic though he withdrew his membership 25 years ago when He got saved. 

If it is an instant, and it's not a place, and its for all believers last instant of purification, no staying or anything like that, why the prayers for them?  What good does the prayers do when it is a set forth thing... Is this ANOTHER change in the "solid" unchangable doctrine of the word? 

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #126 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 17:37:58 »
Broach972

If you had ears to hear you would hear, but you don't.  But don't feel bad about it the pope is deaf also.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #127 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 17:39:23 »
Quote
Quote
Quote
Does Jesus blood cleanse us from all unrighteousness?  And, if so, what need is there for further cleansing?

Yes it does. And all purgatory is is the completion of the lifelong process of sanctification. Thats it. It is not a third place or a second chance.

1 = We are sinners roght up to death.
2 = The souls in heaven are perfected.

1 + 2 = There must be a final sanctification between death and heaven. But, it is NOT a work on our part: It is ALL due to the Blood of Christ and the Sacrfice on Calvary.
Thanks for presenting this as a formal logical argument.  ::smile::

I'll accept both of the two premises stated as is, though I think we define perfect differently.

I don't draw the same conclusion:
1 + 2 = Death effects a change on the soul which renders it perfect.

Note Jesus words:
Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third [day] I shall be perfected.

Check the Greek word as well.  Perfection is inherent in death, and the two concepts are so intertwined  that they virtually share the word (teleios).

Try this:

3 = Suffering will work us to perfection
4 = Death is the natural end of suffering

3 + 4 = Death is the natural end of perfection.

Jarrod
No rebuttal?  No response?  No comment?

No appropriate canned response?  No actual apologetics?

 ::watchingclock::

Offline kensington

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #128 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 17:42:15 »
BTW... My sister in law who teaches the Catechism in her parish and for the school, says the standard time in purgatory is a year.  THAT IS NOT INSTANT.  And it is happening now...  its not something that will happen when Heaven comes as the WORD implies in I Corinthians 3. They are two different things by what the word says, and what the Catholic church is teaching about them.

What gets me also is, that these same people who claim we are not good enough by the blood of Jesus to go to Heaven, and we need this purgatory to prepare us... believe that their prayers can get someone out.  If you are not good enough by the cleansing blood to avoid it, where do you find you are worthy to pray someone out in a year?  And who came up with the year as the standard stay?

I've had 3 catholic widows in my family, all whom claim on the 1 year anniversary of the death of the husband, that he got out of purgatory and went to heaven that day, the priest told them.

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #129 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 17:58:53 »
BTW... My sister in law who teaches the Catechism in her parish and for the school, says the standard time in purgatory is a year.  THAT IS NOT INSTANT.  And it is happening now...  its not something that will happen when Heaven comes as the WORD implies in I Corinthians 3. They are two different things by what the word says, and what the Catholic church is teaching about them.

What gets me also is, that these same people who claim we are not good enough by the blood of Jesus to go to Heaven, and we need this purgatory to prepare us... believe that their prayers can get someone out.  If you are not good enough by the cleansing blood to avoid it, where do you find you are worthy to pray someone out in a year?  And who came up with the year as the standard stay?

I've had 3 catholic widows in my family, all whom claim on the 1 year anniversary of the death of the husband, that he got out of purgatory and went to heaven that day, the priest told them.

Kensington,
This is what the Catechism says about Purgatory...

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609

604 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
605 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
606 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.
607 2 Macc 12:46.
608 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
609 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.


Now, Kensignton, where does it state that one must pay a $150.00?  Where does it say that one must spend at least one year in Purgatory before being released?  Where does it state that it is a "place?"  I think it refers to it as a process.  Please tell me.  The Catechism include the official teachings of the Church.  Please point these things out.

Kensington, I have been a Catholic for a year now.  I think I know more than most cradle
Catholics.  Yes, this is a shame.  Obviously, your sister-in-law is wrong, and the fact she teaches Catechism, she should know better.  In my studies to become a Catholic, not once I have heard of these things you have mentioned.

I wish you would stop listening to people and find out what the Church really teaches on these matters before you start commenting on them.  Please educate yourself.  Here are some fine links to start with.

www.catholic.com
www.fisheaters.com



Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #130 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 18:04:53 »
Okay...you asked for it....If some of this is over your head, just let me know.   ::smile::


Broach --- Purgatory does goes over my head, and over God's Head as well.  ::smile::

All you did was give me the Catholic version of the Bible, which you copied and pasted from http://en.allexperts.com/q/Catholics-955/x-26.htm which ignores the context and is therefore wrongly divided.



Catholic version of the Bible??  My bible has the same number of New Testament books as yours.  Oh, by the way, I have never been to that website...thank you.   ::smile:: ::tippinghat::

Offline kensington

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #131 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 18:09:43 »
Broach... why aren't you taking these things to the church and to the priest who are teaching them. Take them to the Monks and the Nuns who are sending the cards to my FIL to pray for his sister and mom to get out of purgatory... they are the ones in error, by your word, not me. I am telling you what I have seen with my own eyes.. I've seen the mass card offers in the mail. 

And you can go to any parish and ask for a mass to be said for someone in purgatory...  and that fee is $150.00  my catholic family are not baby catholics... they are faithful generation catholics... 


Offline Alethes

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #132 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 18:57:01 »
Okay...you asked for it....If some of this is over your head, just let me know.   ::smile::


Broach --- Purgatory does goes over my head, and over God's Head as well.  ::smile::

All you did was give me the Catholic version of the Bible, which you copied and pasted from http://en.allexperts.com/q/Catholics-955/x-26.htm which ignores the context and is therefore wrongly divided.



Catholic version of the Bible??  My bible has the same number of New Testament books as yours.  Oh, by the way, I have never been to that website...thank you.   ::smile:: ::tippinghat::


It's okay if you copied and posted.  I not getting down on you for dosing so.  I was referring to the info being taken from a Catholic bible.  It's a Catholic website.  No harm done.  ::smile::

I was raised a Catholic and I was quite a devoted one at that.  However, as the years went by I started to study the Bible and to be quite frank with you, I have discovered that much of what the Catholic church taught does not exist in the Word of God.  We can only go as far as we have been taught and sometimes.  2 Timothy 2:15 and Acts 17:11 are vital in attaining the accuracy and integrity of the Word of God.  It's okay to be wrong but it's not okay to stay wrong when we have been shown the truth of God's Word, which is something we all need to honestly desire with all our heart. 

God bless you.   ::tippinghat::
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 21:33:03 by Alethes »

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #133 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 19:56:30 »
Catholic Crusader

No need for purgatory.  Jesus Christ has overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil.

This is why God resurrected him and has taken him to heaven.  It's over!  The battle has been fought and won.  Christ is victorious.  Because he is our representative and our humanity is in him we too can claim the victory.

Colossians 2:15  "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly triumphing over them."

1st Corinthians 15:53-54  "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Then shall it be brought to pass the saying that is written.  DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."

Romans 4:4  "But to him that worketh not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness." Let him who has ears to hear, hear.
Everything you said is true...   ...and none of it has anything to do with Purgatory. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. Here is the definitive teaching on it:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609

604 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
605 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
606 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.
607 2 Macc 12:46.
608 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
609 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #134 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 20:04:47 »
BTW... My sister in law who teaches the Catechism in her parish and for the school, says the standard time in purgatory is a year.....
I can say with all assuredness that your sister is WRONG. Time does not pass in the spiritual realm as it does for us. Is she an acredited Catechist?  There is nothing in the Catechism - and I mean THE Catechism, not just any old catechism - that supports that position. Look it up for yourself, right here at this link, straight from THEEEEE Vatican:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#III




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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #135 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 20:05:39 »
.

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #136 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 20:12:27 »
....Yeah, the one that has purgatory added to it, amongst other non-biblical things like, venial and mortal sins....
Eee Gads! Do you guys even read your Bibles? Here, venial and mortal sin, and I'll even use your corrupted King James Bible to boot:

1 John 5:16-17: ...If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

So, we have "sin unto death" (death = "mortalis") and we have "sin not unto death". Gee whiz. Can I clarify any other Catholic teachings for you?

Robert Pate

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #137 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 20:17:55 »
Catholic Crusader

Everything that I said has to do with purgatory.  The doctrine of purgatory is an insult to Jesus Christ and his gospel.

Christ is victorious over sin, death and the devil.  But according to your doctrine of purgatory if is not sufficient. So we must go to some fictitious place to suffer and purify our souls. What terrible teaching. What a terrible God you serve.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #138 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 20:37:05 »
Do you guys even read your Bibles?

I'll even use your corrupted King James Bible to boot:

I can do without such comments.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #139 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 20:51:40 »
Catholic Crusader

Everything that I said has to do with purgatory.  The doctrine of purgatory is an insult to Jesus Christ and his gospel.
Christ is victorious over sin, death and the devil.  But according to your doctrine of purgatory if is not sufficient. So we must go to some fictitious place to suffer and purify our souls. What terrible teaching. What a terrible God you serve.

All you have demonstrated is that you don't understand what Purgatory even is. The only insult is the insult to my intelligence when you keep throwing out one-liners like "Christ is victorious over sin, death and the devil", as if that is somehow a theological response.

As I said:
It is important to note: Purgatory is ONLY FOR THE SAVED. As I said, it is NOT a second chance, and it is NOT a third place. You could say it is the "doormat" in front of heaven's door where you have to wipe your feet before you go in. (Poor analogy, but you get the point.) The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill, "Heaven" or "Hell". We know at once what our final destiny will be. So, why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

If you guys don't mind me mentioning what the official Catechism Of The Catholic Church states:

CCC 1030 - "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."

CCC 1031 - "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned...  ..by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7."


You can get more scripture quotes here:
http://www.fisheaters.com/purgatory.html
http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm#1029


and this:

.....Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I'm saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the "burning" ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God.

This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God's love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - "purged" - away in the fire of Gods love. There's an old children's song, "God loves you just the way you are, but much too much to let you stay that way." Ahh, yes. Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.