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Author Topic: PURGATORY  (Read 47879 times)

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Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #140 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 20:54:31 »
I can do without such comments.
And I can do without comments like "Purgatory is a lie!" and "What gospel do YOU read!". I would love to debate the subject in a charitable way, in friendship. I am your brother in Christ, not your enemy. But I was immediatley struck with antagonistic posts in this thread, and I'm not big on turning the other cheek.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #140 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 20:54:31 »

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #141 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 20:55:21 »
Everyone, discuss the issues, let's keep it from getting personal.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #141 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 20:55:21 »

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #142 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 20:57:12 »
okay

Offline Alethes

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #143 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 21:11:29 »
....Yeah, the one that has purgatory added to it, amongst other non-biblical things like, venial and mortal sins....
Eee Gads! Do you guys even read your Bibles? Here, venial and mortal sin, and I'll even use your corrupted King James Bible to boot:

1 John 5:16-17: ...If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

So, we have "sin unto death" (death = "mortalis") and we have "sin not unto death". Gee whiz. Can I clarify any other Catholic teachings for you?


1 John 5:16-17 --- If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

The "sin unto death" is the unforgivable sin.  If a man commits that sin prayer will avail nothing because that man is born of the seed of the Serpent.  However, if a brother in the flesh has not committed the unforgivable sin, God will give that brother eternal life if we ask.  The word "brother" in verse 16 specifically refers to a brother by birth.  We can pray for salvation for a family member who wills to hear and believe God's promise.  Praying for eternal life for a relative, brother, sister who has not committed the unforgivable sin is a key we can lay hold on for members of our families who are not saved.

I John 5:17 --- All unrighteousness is sin:  and there is a sin not unto death.

Anything in thought, word or deed, which is not in harmony with God's Word is unrighteousness.  The unrighteousness of those who are born again is not unto death because God has promised forgiveness.

I John 1:9 --- If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There is no purgatory, no venial sin and no mortal sins in the Word of God.

Btw, I Corinthians 3:15 speaks of "rewards" what are earned.  If a Christian's work is built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ it will not be burned up and he receives his rewards.  If a Christian's work is not built on the foundation of Jesus Christ it will be burned up.  He will not receive any for the work he has not done but he himself is saved because he is a son of God, he is born of incorruptible seed which cannot be burned, corrupted or loss.

Same applies to I Peter 1:7.  See also verses 17-19, and 23-25 of I Peter 1.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #143 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 21:11:29 »

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #144 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 21:42:03 »
Eee Gads! Do you guys even read your Bibles? Here, venial and mortal sin, and I'll even use your corrupted King James Bible to boot:

1 John 5:16-17: ...If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

So, we have "sin unto death" (death = "mortalis") and we have "sin not unto death". Gee whiz. Can I clarify any other Catholic teachings for you?

1 John 5:16-17 --- If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

The "sin unto death" is the unforgivable sin.  If a man commits that sin prayer will avail nothing because that man is born of the seed of the Serpent.  However, if a brother in the flesh has not committed the unforgivable sin, God will give that brother eternal life if we ask.  The word "brother" in verse 16 specifically refers to a brother by birth.  We can pray for salvation for a family member who wills to hear and believe God's promise.  Praying for eternal life for a relative, brother, sister who has not committed the unforgivable sin is a key we can lay hold on for members of our families who are not saved.

I John 5:17 --- All unrighteousness is sin:  and there is a sin not unto death.

Anything in thought, word or deed, which is not in harmony with God's Word is unrighteousness.  The unrighteousness of those who are born again is not unto death because God has promised forgiveness.

I John 1:9 --- If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There is no purgatory, no venial sin and no mortal sins in the Word of God.

Btw, I Corinthians 3:15 speaks of "rewards" what are earned.  If a Christian's work is built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ it will not be burned up and he receives his rewards.  If a Christian's work is not built on the foundation of Jesus Christ it will be burned up.  He will not receive any for the work he has not done but he himself is saved because he is a son of God, he is born of incorruptible seed which cannot be burned, corrupted or loss.

Same applies to I Peter 1:7.  See also verses 17-19, and 23-25 of I Peter 1.
1) look at my post, and look at yours. Mine says what the Bible says. YOURS has a lot of personal opinion thrown in. Ha! And you guys say Catholics add man made doctrines. What a hoot.   rofl

2) Purgatory is a truth of the Christian faith.  ::amen!::.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #144 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 21:42:03 »



Offline Gillian

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #145 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 21:46:59 »
Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.
Well, let me try this question again.  I never did get an answer I found satisfactory before.

Does Jesus blood cleanse us from all unrighteousness?  And, if so, what need is there for further cleansing?

Yes it does. And all purgatory is is the completion of the lifelong process of sanctification. Thats it. It is not a third place or a second chance.

1 = We are sinners roght up to death.
2 = The souls in heaven are perfected.

1 + 2 = There must be a final sanctification between death and heaven. But, it is NOT a work on our part: It is ALL due to the Blood of Christ and the Sacrfice on Calvary.
So you say the blood of Christ just wasn't quite good enough, more has to be done? You say Purgatory is a process of further cleansing (purged of sins) Can you explain how this is done in Purgatory? Since Christ's blood was not quite good enough, what is the process of purging, (or cleansing) that goes on in purgatory, and what is it that completes the cleansing of sins more than the blood of Christ?

To teach and believe a doctrine like this, you must have somewhat of an explanation, or do you just believe blindly?

When Jesus said to the thief on the cross "today you shall be with me in paradise, is paradise "purgatory?" Or was he able to just skip purgatory?

Another question, Pre-mills believe Christians will be raptured of the earth and be with the Lord during the Tribulation (7 year) What is happening here, where is purgatory mentioned? How are they good enough to go with the Lord, and not through purgatory first? Curious of your thoughts on this?

How bout John 5:28-29, where the bodies of all will be resurrected together, and then separated?

"Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean."

My friend, that all depends on who declares a soul clean. How bout Abraham? (for one example) Does the Pope and the Roman church have more authority than God?
"merely covered?" Christ blood just "merely covers us?" Could you please explain? Show where scripture teaches this.

Robert Pate

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #146 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 21:52:31 »
Catholic Crusader

How can you Know so much about purgatory?  There is nothing in the Bible about it.  And I don't think you have been there.  Yet you seem to be an expert on it.  What is the source of your information?  Please don't tell me that God told the pope about it.

Offline Gillian

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #147 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 21:56:28 »

Too many Christians write their own bibles and this dishonors God who alone is Author of His Word.

Considering there are thousands of Protestant denominations, I would tend to agree with this.


Don't forget about the split in Romanism, eastern orthodox? And the many differing beliefs within the roman church throughout history.

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #148 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 21:58:22 »
Catholic Crusader

How can you Know so much about purgatory?  There is nothing in the Bible about it.  And I don't think you have been there.  Yet you seem to be an expert on it.  What is the source of your information?  Please don't tell me that God told the pope about it.
God told the pope about it.

 rofl
But seriously: I didn't start this thread. I just posted some information in my first post. But then people wanted to be rude, and I'm not the guy to be rude to.

The truth is, in the Catechism, which is about 3 inches thick, two pages are devoted to Purgatory. It ain't that big of a deal. But I know what it is, and I know the teaching is true.

Try reading this:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 22:04:57 by Catholic Crusader »

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #149 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 22:04:02 »
....Don't forget about the split in Romanism, eastern orthodox? And the many differing beliefs within the roman church throughout history....
The difference is, on those matters of doctrine that have been declared Dei Fide, there is no debate. In matters that the Church has NOT defined, theologians can disagree.
And be careful trying to drive a wedge between us and the EO's: We share belief in the seven sacraments, apostolic succession, transubstantiation (although they don't use that term) the sinlessness of mary, and much more. We differ on the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome, but in almost all doctrines we agree.

(TIP: Look up "Romanism" in  a dictionary. It is a slur. I try not to insult people and I would ask the same respect in return.)

Offline Reformer

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #150 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 22:17:46 »
Quote
All you have demonstrated is that you don't understand what Purgatory even is.

     According to the Catholic Dictionary, p. 704, there is no direct and explicit reference to Purgatory in the scriptures.

    "We would appeal to these general principles of scripture, rather than to particular texts often alleged in proof of Purgatory.  We doubt if they contain an explicit and direct reference to it."

     The Catholic Dictionary was printed with the imprimatur (latin for "Let it be printed") of the Catholic hierarchy (bishop, archbishop, or cardinal).

     In the same book, it is stated, "Still the doctrine [Purgatory] was not fully established in the West till the time of Gregory the Great" (Cath. Dic., p. 706).

     This means that the doctrine was not fully developed before 590 A. D., which makes it too old to be part of the oldest biblical manuscripts or part of the apostolic teachings.  Furthermore, Catholic "Fathers" such as Augustine and Chrysostom did not believe it (p. 704).

—Buff.

Offline Gillian

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #151 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 22:32:39 »
These differences have gone on for years between Christians and the church of Rome, many questions do not get answers, at least not with scripture, because there is none. Luther completely destroyed many Romans of his day in debates. In the  The "Leipsic Disputation (1519)" Luther completely destroyed  Dr. John Eek's during this debate, when the topic of purgatory came up Luther denied that Purgatory was taught anywhere in scripture (though at the time of this discussion Luther still believed in Purgatory), Dr. John Eek was no match for Luther and scripture to prove it by using scripture, How do you suppose you can? 

Purgatory is just one of many teachings that has not been given up as of yet, perhaps it never will be.

Could you explain to me " The golden rose?"  It is a teaching of the church of Rome, The golden rose was deemed to represent the body of Jesus Christ. It was consecrated every year by the Pontiff, and presented to one of the leading princes of Europe. ---I am curious about this object, what was it's purpose? Was it actually considered the body of Christ, or just represent His body? What purpose did it serve, especially for a Prince? I must confess I am at a loss with this. Especially since practices like this are not supported in scripture.

Keep in mind, at first, Luther did not want to leave the church, he loved the church, did you read his letter to the Pope?

 "Most holy father, - may your Holiness condescend to incline your paternal ear, which is that of Christ Himself, toward your poor sheep, and listen with kindness to his bleating. What shall I do, most Holy Father! I cannot stand against the torrent of your anger, and I know no way of escape. They require of me that I should retract. I would be prompt to do so, if that could lead to the result they desire. But the persecutions of my enemies have spread my writings far and wide, and they are to deeply engraved on the hearts of men to be by possibility erased. A retraction would only still more dishonor the Church of Rome, and call forth from all a cry of accusation against her. Most Holy Father, i declare it in the presence of God, and of all the world, I never have sought, nor will I ever seek, to weaken, by force or artifice, the power of the Roman Church or of your Holiness. I confess that there is nothing in heaven or earth that should be preferred above that Church, save only Jesus Christ the Lord of all.....Luther.

So Luther did not want to leave the Church Of Rome, in fact the Roman church excommunicated Luther. He recognized the error!
You present Pope agrees.   

Offline Gillian

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #152 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 22:45:29 »
---Listen to one of Luther's quotes:
"It is better," said Luther, "to attack openly, then to wound from behind a hedge."


Offline Gillian

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #153 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 22:49:38 »
A debate between the Christian church and the Roman Church is a difficult thing:

"the greater our power, the greater our danger if we walk not in fear of the Lord."

Luther writes:
"The Romanists have raised three barriers against the reformation. When the temporal power has attacked them, they have denied it's authority, and asserted that the spiritual power was superior to it. When anyone rebuked them out of the Scripture, they have answered, that no one but the Pope was able to interpret Scripture. When they have been threatened with a council, the reply has been, no one but the Sovereign Pontiff has authority to convoke a council." ---"They have thus wrestled from our hands the three rods destined to correct them, and have given the rain to all evil. But now, God help us, and give us one of those trumpets which overthrew the walls of Jericho! With the breath of our lips, let us throw down the paper walls, which the Romanists have built around them, and lift up the scourges which punish the wicked, by exposing the wiles and stratagems of the devil."
__

Pretty serious words, but this is the way it has always been. How can one argue against this?

Offline janine

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #154 on: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 23:04:17 »
Seems there was a stir a few months ago when the CC announced that Purgatory was made up.

I'd look up a link about that & discuss it if I were not so sleepy. 

Offline kensington

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #155 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 00:59:38 »
I love you janine... you forget nothing.

Just another passage from THE BIBLE that implies there is no purgatory needed.

Mark 2:10 "But, in order that you may KNOW that the Son of Man has the authority on earth to forgive sins."

He has the authority on earth... and there is no other place or time needed for sins to be forgiven or cleansed. If there were, God would have said so.  If you are saved, you go from here to there... there is no "cleansing" place.

If you are not cleansed when that time comes, you are out of luck. The cleansing happens here, by the blood of Jesus.

There is no other way...  I Corinthians 3 speaks of works... not sins. Rewards and works... for those whom have ALREADY had their sins forgiven by Christ in His authority HERE on earth.  And that is the bottom line.

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #156 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 06:23:06 »

Too many Christians write their own bibles and this dishonors God who alone is Author of His Word.

Considering there are thousands of Protestant denominations, I would tend to agree with this.


Don't forget about the split in Romanism, eastern orthodox? And the many differing beliefs within the roman church throughout history.

As a history major and history teacher, I can say that you are way off here.  There is only one Catholic Church.  The split that occurred when the Orthodox Church broke off was more over cultural matters and papal authority than theological disagreements.  Again, theologically speaking, there isn't much difference between Catholics and Orthodox Christians.  What differing beliefs are you referring to within the Catholic Church?

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #157 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 08:49:27 »
 According to the Catholic Dictionary, p. 704, there is no direct and explicit reference to Purgatory in the scriptures.... ...This means that the doctrine was not fully developed before 590 A. D., which makes it too old to be part of the oldest biblical manuscripts or part of the apostolic teachings.  Furthermore, Catholic "Fathers" such as Augustine and Chrysostom did not believe it (p. 704).

—Buff.

The Canon of the New Testament and the doctrine of the Trinity wasn't fully developed until centuries after Christ's death too. But does that make them any less true? Nope. You come to a fuller understanding of the Bible as time goes by, do you not? So too the Church comes to a fuller understanding of God's revelation as the centuries pass.

As for the Fathers, here is a mine of quotes from them:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #158 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 09:03:00 »
These differences have gone on for years between Christians and the church of Rome....
You mean between "protestants" and Rome. We ARE Christians TOO.  ::smile::

....Luther completely destroyed many Romans of his day in debates.....
I don't think so. If he did, why are so many Lutheran pastors becoming Catholics now? Don't believe me? Watch "The Journey Home" some time.

In the  The "Leipsic Disputation (1519)" Luther completely destroyed  Dr. John Eek's during this debate, when the topic of purgatory came up Luther denied that Purgatory was taught anywhere in scripture (though at the time of this discussion Luther still believed in Purgatory), Dr. John Eek was no match for Luther and scripture to prove it by using scripture, How do you suppose you can? 

Maybe Eek was a moron. We have plenty of those. And I'm not here to "win". I'm here to speak the truth. Eek should have asked Luther, "Where does it say in the Bible that everything must be found in the Bible?"

Purgatory is just one of many teachings that has not been given up as of yet, perhaps it never will be....
Of course it won't. It is "Dei Fide" - Dogma - divinely revealed by the Holy Spirit to be true.

Could you explain to me " The golden rose?"  It is a teaching of the church of Rome...
Its not in the Catechism and its not in any council documents, so it is not a doctrine of the Church. And I have never heard of it. Perhaps it was some devotion popular at the time. Such things come and go: Some are good, some not so good. They are not doctrine though.

So Luther did not want to leave the Church Of Rome, in fact the Roman church excommunicated Luther.
Well, what he wanted to do and what he did were two different things. That is like an army general who want to reform the military, but goes about it by disrespecting all of his superiors. Then after he gets court martialed, says, "I never wanted to leave". Oh well. Some of what Luther said was good, but some was heresy, and he was too arrogant to accept that.
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 10:05:15 by Catholic Crusader »

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #159 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 09:36:04 »

Eek should have asked Lutjer, "Where does it say in the Bible that everything must be found in the Bible?"


I cannot wait for the answer on this one.  Sola scriptura is a flawed doctrine.  Even Scripture does not support sola scriptura.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #160 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 09:46:16 »
Even Scripture does not support sola scriptura.


2Ti 3:15-17  "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 09:57:20 by Charles Sloan »

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #161 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 10:07:43 »

Eek should have asked Lutjer, "Where does it say in the Bible that everything must be found in the Bible?"


I cannot wait for the answer on this one.  Sola scriptura is a flawed doctrine.  Even Scripture does not support sola scriptura.
Humoursly ironic, nes pa ?

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #162 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 10:12:00 »
Even Scripture does not support sola scriptura.


2Ti 3:15-17  "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
NONE of that says that scripture is the ONLY source of Christian teaching. Is it "able to make thee wise unto salvation"? Sure.  Is it "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction"? You betcha. But is it the ONLY source of Christian teaching? Nope. As Paul said:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth OR by letter from us.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #163 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 10:18:22 »
Seems there was a stir a few months ago when the CC announced that Purgatory was made up.

I'd look up a link about that & discuss it if I were not so sleepy. 
Nobody ever said that. The article you read was poorly reported, because I saw simarly erroneous reports. Nothing new there. Purgatory is Dei Fide, which means Dogmatic Doctrine - solemnly defined by a Council chaired by the successor of St Peter. No Pope could ever change it even if he wanted to - which, of course, he would not.

Tantor

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #164 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 10:24:16 »
Even Scripture does not support sola scriptura.


2Ti 3:15-17  "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
NONE of that says that scripture is the ONLY source of Christian teaching. Is it "able to make thee wise unto salvation"? Sure.  Is it "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction"? You betcha. But is it the ONLY source of Christian teaching? Nope. As Paul said:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth OR by letter from us.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.


Yes.. and the traditions they were taught were outlined in the scriptures for us all to read.... and I would contend that a HUGE portion of traditions that are observed by the Catholic church did not exist at the time the apostle made that statement.

In the end, its the conduct of the catholic church in and of itself that sets the standard as to whether its worthy or not of the title it so covets.

When I look at the shameful history of the roman catholic church and its corrupt papacy, I cannot understand at all how anyone can put its faith in such a messed up institution.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #165 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 10:31:11 »
NONE of that says that scripture is the ONLY source of Christian teaching. Is it "able to make thee wise unto salvation"? Sure.  Is it "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction"? You betcha. But is it the ONLY source of Christian teaching?

I never said it was the only source, but it is the only Authority.

Robert Pate

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #166 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 10:31:53 »
If you want to know more about Catholicism.  Just pickup the local paper or turn on the evening news there is a story breaking every day.

Offline Reformer

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #167 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 11:32:49 »
Quote
The Canon of the New Testament and the doctrine of the Trinity wasn't fully developed until centuries after Christ's death too. But does that make them any less true? Nope. You come to a fuller understanding of the Bible as time goes by, do you not? So too the Church comes to a fuller understanding of God's revelation as the centuries pass.

But Paul said 2,000 years ago that he had not neglected to declare to the early believers the "whole counsel of God."  The Catholic hierarchy might reply, "Oh, but Paul, you are wrong!  Part of God's counsel is Purgatory."

The fact is that the quotes I submitted earlier were taken from a Catholic publication, printed centuries after the Christian community was founded, but still no mention of Purgatory in the scriptures, according to Roman Catholic authorities.  The doctrine was invented by the Roman Catholic hierarchy centuries after Paul declared he left nothing out in proclaimimng God's counsel.

---Buff.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #168 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 11:34:30 »
Quote
The Canon of the New Testament and the doctrine of the Trinity wasn't fully developed until centuries after Christ's death too. But does that make them any less true? Nope. You come to a fuller understanding of the Bible as time goes by, do you not? So too the Church comes to a fuller understanding of God's revelation as the centuries pass.

But Paul said 2,000 years ago that he had not neglected to declare to the early believers the "whole counsel of God."  The Catholic hierarchy might reply, "Oh, but Paul, you are wrong!  Part of God's counsel is Purgatory."

Very good point here.

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #169 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 13:08:12 »
I never said it was the only source, but it is the only Authority.

And where is this stated in Scripture?

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #170 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 13:14:41 »
I never said it was the only source, but it is the only Authority.

And where is this stated in Scripture?

What does the word "inspired" mean to you?

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #171 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 13:23:08 »
Yes.. and the traditions they were taught were outlined in the scriptures for us all to read....
Strange, since the New Testament didn't exist when he said that. The ONLY reason the Church canonized the NT was for liturgical purposes, so that there would not be wrong books being read aloud when the faithful joined together. The Bible was never meant to be used for personal interpretation and personal formulation of ones own doctrines. That is a perversion of the authors' intent.
and I would contend that a HUGE portion of traditions that are observed by the Catholic church did not exist at the time the apostle made that statement.
Thats because you believe in the false notiuon of Sola Scriptura, no doubt. Peaul equates ORAL and WRITTEN tradition as equal in validity:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.


When I look at the shameful history of the roman catholic church and its corrupt papacy, I cannot understand at all how anyone can put its faith in such a messed up institution.
I can imagine you sitting at the foot of Sinai when the Hebrews were making a golden calf. You probably would have figured from their shameful behavior that they were not the People Of God, and you would have been WRONG.

The Church is a Church full of siiners. You bettcha! Glad to be one of them. Show me a church full of perfectly dressed, perfectly behaved people, and I'll show you a bunch of phonies. Remember: Peter denied Christ and lobbed of some shmucks ear AFTER having listened to Jesus preach for three years. But he still went on to write infallible scripture. Our sinfulness is irellevant, except for the fact that it makes us real people.

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #172 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 13:25:02 »
I never said it was the only source, but it is the only Authority.
That is illogical. A piece of paper cannot excersise authority. Jesus never told anyone to write a book. He gave authority to MEN, the apostles, and they handed it on to their successors.

Catholic Crusader

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #173 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 13:26:17 »
What does the word "inspired" mean to you?
It don't mean "authority", that's for sure.

Tantor

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #174 on: Thu Mar 13, 2008 - 13:32:41 »
What does the word "inspired" mean to you?
It don't mean "authority", that's for sure.

'Inspired' means that God directed them what to write.. therefore the scripture is 'God breathed'..

And I would contend that anything written according to God's direction is the ultimate authority... period.