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Author Topic: PURGATORY  (Read 47791 times)

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Kelly

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #35 on: Fri Mar 07, 2008 - 08:21:06 »
broach972,
Can you explain to me the Purgatory of "Limbus Infantum?" Please justify it with scripture!

Briefly, It is a place where infants and small children are for eternity, separate from God and heaven. Care to elaborate?
The Catholic church recanted Limbo.  They don't believe in it anymore.

What?!! No more limbo? Now what are we going to do on family skate night?

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #35 on: Fri Mar 07, 2008 - 08:21:06 »

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #36 on: Fri Mar 07, 2008 - 08:23:02 »
broach972,
Can you explain to me the Purgatory of "Limbus Infantum?" Please justify it with scripture!

Briefly, It is a place where infants and small children are for eternity, separate from God and heaven. Care to elaborate?
The Catholic church recanted Limbo.  They don't believe in it anymore.

What?!! No more limbo? Now what are we going to do on family skate night?

Limbo still exists.  Hermes Conrad does the limbo all the time in the year 2999.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #36 on: Fri Mar 07, 2008 - 08:23:02 »

Offline Gillian

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #37 on: Fri Mar 07, 2008 - 17:41:52 »
broach972,
Can you explain to me the Purgatory of "Limbus Infantum?" Please justify it with scripture!

Briefly, It is a place where infants and small children are for eternity, separate from God and heaven. Care to elaborate?
The Catholic church recanted Limbo.  They don't believe in it anymore.
If it doesn't exist then where are all these babies and children who were there? Why would anyone teach such a "horrible god forsaken place" then later recant it? Thats a heavy duty doctrine!
I wonder if they will also claim purgatory is not true either? My opinion, one can make money and have very controlled people with purgatory, but with Limbus Infantum? There is nothing that can be done for these poor little babies and children, so, whats the prophet in teaching it?

Offline kensington

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #38 on: Fri Mar 07, 2008 - 18:13:21 »
That's an awesome question, where have all the babies who were "confined" to limbo gone when they decided there was not a limbo.  Where have they decided all the babies have been all this time?  And where are they teaching they are going now?

 ::saint::

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #38 on: Fri Mar 07, 2008 - 18:13:21 »

k-pappy

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #39 on: Fri Mar 07, 2008 - 21:58:29 »
The idea from purgatory came from one verse in the book of Maccabees.  They offered money to a priest to offer prayers for the dead.  From that one verse an entire doctrine was born.  There are no other verses or passages that support the idea of purgatory.

Jesus did it all.

In Christ,
KP

Actually, you are not correct.

Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Actually, I am correct.

I no longer have my catholic version of the Bible, but if you do, you can easily look it up.

Also correct in the fact that the idea is NOT supported anywhere else in Scripture.  If you wish prove otherwise, please quote the passage.

Before we continue though, please answer me a question?  Do you believe catholic teaching has the same weight of authority as God's Word does?

In Christ,
KP

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #39 on: Fri Mar 07, 2008 - 21:58:29 »



Offline Bonnie

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #40 on: Sat Mar 08, 2008 - 05:32:15 »
The idea from purgatory came from one verse in the book of Maccabees.  They offered money to a priest to offer prayers for the dead.  From that one verse an entire doctrine was born.  There are no other verses or passages that support the idea of purgatory.

Jesus did it all.

In Christ,
KP

Actually, you are not correct.

Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Actually, I am correct.

I no longer have my catholic version of the Bible, but if you do, you can easily look it up.

Also correct in the fact that the idea is NOT supported anywhere else in Scripture.  If you wish prove otherwise, please quote the passage.

Before we continue though, please answer me a question?  Do you believe catholic teaching has the same weight of authority as God's Word does?

In Christ,
KP


I believe I'm going to be ready, stay ready, and not take any changes on  Salvation coming to me after I am dead. That notion does indeed make the Cross of none effect whether people like to hear it or not.

Offline Gillian

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #41 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 10:43:36 »
The idea from purgatory came from one verse in the book of Maccabees.  They offered money to a priest to offer prayers for the dead.  From that one verse an entire doctrine was born.  There are no other verses or passages that support the idea of purgatory.

Jesus did it all.

In Christ,
KP

Actually, you are not correct.

Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Actually, I am correct.

I no longer have my catholic version of the Bible, but if you do, you can easily look it up.

Also correct in the fact that the idea is NOT supported anywhere else in Scripture.  If you wish prove otherwise, please quote the passage.

Before we continue though, please answer me a question?  Do you believe catholic teaching has the same weight of authority as God's Word does?

In Christ,
KP


I believe I'm going to be ready, stay ready, and not take any changes on  Salvation coming to me after I am dead. That notion does indeed make the Cross of none effect whether people like to hear it or not.
I agree with you 100%, how could some people not see this?

Robert Pate

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #42 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 11:15:46 »
The Catholic doctrine of purgatory is just another way of subverting the gospel.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #43 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 11:37:40 »
The idea from purgatory came from one verse in the book of Maccabees.  They offered money to a priest to offer prayers for the dead.  From that one verse an entire doctrine was born.  There are no other verses or passages that support the idea of purgatory.

Jesus did it all.

In Christ,
KP

Actually, you are not correct.

Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Actually, I am correct.

I no longer have my catholic version of the Bible, but if you do, you can easily look it up.

Also correct in the fact that the idea is NOT supported anywhere else in Scripture.  If you wish prove otherwise, please quote the passage.

Before we continue though, please answer me a question?  Do you believe catholic teaching has the same weight of authority as God's Word does?

In Christ,
KP


I believe I'm going to be ready, stay ready, and not take any changes on  Salvation coming to me after I am dead. That notion does indeed make the Cross of none effect whether people like to hear it or not.
I agree with you 100%, how could some people not see this?


We know all false doctrines whatever they are come from the god of this world - Satan.

Offline Dave...

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #44 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 12:51:03 »
I found the following exchanges between those that challenged the idea of Purgatory and J. Salza.  It is quite interesting.

Kevin: I have reviewed your page on purgatory and find it to be full of false teaching. For example, you say on your website: “Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for nearly 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 13:12:55 by Dave... »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #45 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 15:43:23 »
There is such a disconnect in this thread.   When I read the responses back and forth, it's obvious that the people talking define words very differently.

broach,

Purgatory is for cleansing us prior to heaven, right?  What need is there for cleansing?  Doesn't the blood of Jesus cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness?  Does the atonement of Jesus only cover our past sins up to the time of conversion?

Jarrod

Offline Alethes

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #46 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 18:41:57 »
If the Word of God does not teach there is a purgatory, which it does not, why put it there?  Do we know more than God?   We either believe God's Word/Doctrine or man's word/doctrine.  Personally, I choose to believe God.  ::smile::
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 19:07:36 by Alethes »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #47 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 19:27:50 »
Good decision

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #48 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 21:48:01 »
There is such a disconnect in this thread.   When I read the responses back and forth, it's obvious that the people talking define words very differently.

broach,

Purgatory is for cleansing us prior to heaven, right?  What need is there for cleansing?  Doesn't the blood of Jesus cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness?  Does the atonement of Jesus only cover our past sins up to the time of conversion?

Jarrod

You are right, there is a disconnect.  For me, the concept of Purgatory is very easy to understand and actually makes sense considering the Catholic view of grace and justification.  I think this is the reason for this disconnect.  In order to understand the concept of Purgatory, one must first understand the Catholic view of justification.  Remember, I was once a Protestant for most of my life.  I can understand why this idea would make one stop and wonder.  Let's start with your questions.

Purgatory is for cleansing us prior to heaven, right?

Absolutely.  As stated in Scripture, "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27)

What need is there for cleansing? 

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27).  One must understand the Catholic view of grace.  Mortal sin kills the grace within the soul.  The soul becomes corrupt and unclean.  While we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Furthermore, one just consider that two judgements occur.  When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27).  We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill.  We know at once what our final destiny will be.  At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.  Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."  In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13).  It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).

Doesn't the blood of Jesus cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness?

Absolutely.  It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross.  But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us.  Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy.   Sanctification is an ongoing process.  Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven.  Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

Does the atonement of Jesus only cover our past sins up to the time of conversion?

Ahhhh...this is where we run into a major problem.  The word "cover" causes some problems.  This is one of the main things that started to tug at me as a Protestant.  Are we merely "covered?"  Absolutely not.  The Catholic notion of justification is much different from that of Protestants.  Justification is not just merely a "legal declaration."  It entails so much more.  His righteousness does not just cover us as an imputation, it is directly infused within us.  Of couse, this is a separate dicussion.

Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life.  After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul.  It is still unclean.

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

Well, Wycliffes, I hope this sheds more light on the matter.  Again, you cannot compartmentalize Catholic teachings or theology.  You must look at each teaching within a broader context or theology.  You cannot fully understand the concept of Purgatory without first understanding the Catholic view of justification and sanctification, which is for another thread.




Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #49 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 21:55:32 »
If the Word of God does not teach there is a purgatory, which it does not, why put it there?  Do we know more than God?   We either believe God's Word/Doctrine or man's word/doctrine.  Personally, I choose to believe God.  ::smile::


Well, the Word of God mentions nothing of the Trinity or Incarnation, not to mention the Rapture.  Why put it there?

I would suggest the following for further research.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp

Robert Pate

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #50 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 23:06:11 »
broach972

This is the most blasphemous anti-gospel thing that I have ever read.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #51 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 23:07:12 »
Doesn't the blood of Jesus cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness?

Absolutely.  It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross.  But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us.  Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy.   Sanctification is an ongoing process.  Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven.  Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.
I understand your position (or at least I'm arrogant enough to think I do), but....

You didn't quite answer my question.  You say that Christ's blood accomplished salvation.  While I agree, that wasn't what I asked.  I asked if it cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness.

ravenlorre

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #52 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 23:25:00 »
Good Grief!!!

Since the authorities of this site have refused my request to exclude me from further discussion, due to me personal issues - I will take this opportunity to fully support my brother Broach who has be mocked without cause for the last 4 pages - what a shame - shame on all of you!!!

We are all Christians (Trinitarian believers) here - despite our opinions on doctrine!

Broach has presented the Catholic position (the sole Christian position for 1500 years) regarding purgatory in the most honest and forth right method possible.  If you refuse to believe it - fine - you have the chose to follow the belief of Luther, who frankly - was obsessive compulsive and in complete rebellion against the Church God set up on Peter the Rock.  Are Protestants Christian? some are - despite their teaching. 

The fact is Sola Scriptura is a sham - it is not supported by scripture - no way - no how!  If you are serious about being a Christian you need to recognize the authority of the Bible and the Church.

Ravenlorre




Offline kensington

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #53 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 23:30:45 »
Oh... Stop being so melodramatic Ravelore...  ::drama::   
Broach didn't even get in the discussion until 1/2 through the 3rd page of the topic.

Until then he just ate popcorn and watched.... hardly 4 pages of bashing as you acccuse.  Good grief... a reality check would be nice.  ::tippinghat::

ravenlorre

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #54 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 23:41:17 »
Oh... Stop being so melodramatic Ravelore...  ::drama::   
Broach didn't even get in the discussion until 1/2 through the 3rd page of the topic.

Until then he just ate popcorn and watched.... hardly 4 pages of bashing as you acccuse.  Good grief... a reality check would be nice.  ::tippinghat::

LOL

I am sure I have never been accused of being melodramatic on this forum before!  It doesn't matter to me when Broach decided to jump into the discussion - the fact is the doctrine of the Catholic Church was being questioned from the beginning - and therefore my post stands.  The Catholic Church defined Christian doctrine until Luther - 1500 years after Christ died.  Luther decided to introduce a false doctrine - sola scriptura - in an attempt to break away from Christ's Church.  The problem with his man-made doctrine (Sola Scriptura) was that it wasn't supported by scripture!  Without sola scriptura - there is zero authority to dismiss the doctrine of Purgatory.  All drama excluded.

-R

Offline Dave...

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #55 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 23:56:43 »
Ravenlore

Who gave your pope authority and how do you know?

Dave


ravenlorre

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #56 on: Sun Mar 09, 2008 - 23:59:20 »
Ravenlore

Who gave your pope authority and how do you know?

Dave

Quote

Jesus  - see Matt 16:18:   And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Ravenlorre

Offline Dave...

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #57 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 00:01:47 »
So God's written Word is your final authority? I can see no other reason why you would go to the Bible to try to justify the pope unless you believed that the Bible has the final say...do you agree? If you don't, then please explain why you are using the Bible to try to justify your pope.

Dave

ravenlorre

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #58 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 00:02:15 »
Ravenlore

Who gave your pope authority and how do you know?

Dave



Jesus  - see Matt 16:18:   And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Ravenlorre

ravenlorre

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #59 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 00:05:39 »
So God's written Word is your final authority? I can see no other reason why you would go to the Bible to try to justify the pope unless you believed that the Bible has the final say...do you agree? If you don't, then please explain why you are using the Bible to try to justify your pope.

Dave

Sola Scriptura - the Bible as an authority alone is a man made doctrine - made up by Luther - not supported by scripture, itself.  Of course I do not believe it.  I, rightly believe that the Bible and the Church are equal authorities.

R

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #60 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 00:09:11 »
So God's written Word is your final authority? I can see no other reason why you would go to the Bible to try to justify the pope unless you believed that the Bible has the final say...do you agree? If you don't, then please explain why you are using the Bible to try to justify your pope.

Dave

Sola Scriptura - the Bible as an authority alone is a man made doctrine - made up by Luther - not supported by scripture, itself.  Of course I do not believe it.  I, rightly believe that the Bible and the Church are equal authorities.

R

Your are going to point to the Scripture to disprove the belief of Scripture alone. Isn't that rich.

BTW: Welcome back and I hope all is well.

Offline Dave...

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #61 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 00:12:17 »
Then why do you try to justify the pope by using the Bible? You could have just quoted the pope...but in your heart, you know why you went to God's written Word, don't you?

BTW, your pope likes Luther now.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/new_details.asp?ID=25254

Dave

ravenlorre

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #62 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 00:19:06 »
So God's written Word is your final authority? I can see no other reason why you would go to the Bible to try to justify the pope unless you believed that the Bible has the final say...do you agree? If you don't, then please explain why you are using the Bible to try to justify your pope.

Dave

Sola Scriptura - the Bible as an authority alone is a man made doctrine - made up by Luther - not supported by scripture, itself.  Of course I do not believe it.  I, rightly believe that the Bible and the Church are equal authorities.

R

Your are going to point to the Scripture to disprove the belief of Scripture alone. Isn't that rich.

BTW: Welcome back and I hope all is well.

Charles - as much as I despise your view of doctrine - I am grateful for your heart.  Thank you so much for looking after me.  God bless you.

What can I say?  I am a lover of scripture!!!

R

ravenlorre

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #63 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 00:20:48 »
Then why do you try to justify the pope by using the Bible? You could have just quoted the pope...but in your heart, you know why you went to God's written Word, don't you?

BTW, your pope likes Luther now.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/new_details.asp?ID=25254

Dave


Why not?  I love the Bible and I love the Church!  Both must be in agreement.

R

Offline Dave...

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #64 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 00:43:40 »
ravenlorre, you dodged the question.

Why do you try to justify the pope by using the Bible? You could have just quoted the pope...if you believe that they are equal...

Quote
Sola Scriptura - the Bible as an authority alone is a man made doctrine - made up by Luther - not supported by scripture, itself.  Of course I do not believe it.  I, rightly believe that the Bible and the Church are equal authorities.


The Bible and the pope teach opposite things. Compare what each teaches, it's not hard to see.

The Pope and the Papacy
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-291.htm

What does the Bible say about the Bible?
http://www.biblebb.com/files/KSS/kss-bible.htm

Is the "sexual perversion of the priesthood which even Benedictus XVI tried to sweep under the rug..." in line with the Bible?

---------------

THE PAPACY

The word "pope" comes from the Latin word "papa" meaning father. Most scholars agree that the first real pope was Gregory I (590- 604 A.D.). The pope claims to be the mediator between God and men with the power over souls in purgatory. However, the Bible contradicts this claim by stating that "For there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus" (I Tim 2:5 J.B.V.). The papacy attempts to usurp the power and authority belonging solely to Christ by claiming the pope as the head of the church, but the Bible declares that Jesus is the head of the Church (Col. 1:18), and that "He has put all things under his feet, and made him, as the ruler of everything, the head of the Church; which is his body" (Eph. 1:22, 23, J.B.V.; see also Col. 2:9, 10).

The pope also claims the titles of "His Holiness" or "The Holy Father" in direct violation of Christ's warnings to His followers: "You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven" (Matt. 23:9, 10, J.B.V.).

Read the rest here.

The Roman Catholic Religion Examined
http://www.biblebb.com/files/CATHINFO.HTM

More...a very good read...

The Scandal of the Catholic Priesthood
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/catholicscandal.htm

Irreconcilable Differences: Catholics and Evangelicals.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/ECTDOC.HTM

Is Roman Catholicism Biblical?
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sf-rcc-b.htm

I pray that God opens your eyes ravenlorre, because the gross inconsistencies of your position are glaring, if you would only care to look honestly.

Dave




« Last Edit: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 00:55:26 by Dave... »

ravenlorre

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #65 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 01:07:10 »
ravenlorre, you dodged the question.


I am not seeing it

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Why do you try to justify the pope by using the Bible?


2 reasons - (1)as a Protestant you only accept Biblical proof.  (2)  The Bible supports the Papacy.

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You could have just quoted the pope...if you believe that they are equal...


You do not accept the word of the Pope - despite the fact that he is always in line with scripture.

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Sorry, but the Bible and the pope are opposites...they teach two different things. This isn't hard to see from scripture.


Prove it

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The Pope and the Papacy
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-291.htm

What does the Bible say about the Bible?
http://www.biblebb.com/files/KSS/kss-bible.htm


All Protestant sources - easily dismissed by Catholic authority.

Quote
Tell me, is the "sexual perversion of the priesthood which even Benedictus XVI tried to sweep under the rug..." in line with the Bible?
 

A great shame on Christ's Church - yet nothing unique.  All Churches have faced the same evil, yet amongst Protestant churches it is easier to distance oneself from the evil.  Sexual crime amongst Presbyterians?! - outrageous!  Good thing they are mainliners - we will never face their evil.  Sexual abuse amongst Calvary Chapel membersbers?!  Good thing we are not members of their denomination!

It is easy to point to the Catholic Church when sexual abuse allegations arise - the fact is, sexual abuse is rampant in all churches - sex offenders gravitate toward any agency that provides them with access to children.

Rather than condemning - it is more prudent to realize the all churches are vulnerable.

It is a cheap shot to accuse the Catholic Church of sexual abuse when schools and all churches are susceptible to the same sort of charges and attracting the same sort of predator.

-R


ravenlorre

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #66 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 01:24:47 »
Quote
THE PAPACY

The word "pope" comes from the Latin word "papa" meaning father. Most scholars agree that the first real pope was Gregory I (590- 604 A.D.). The pope claims to be the mediator between God and men with the power over souls in purgatory. However, the Bible contradicts this claim by stating that "For there is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus" (I Tim 2:5 J.B.V.). The papacy attempts to usurp the power and authority belonging solely to Christ by claiming the pope as the head of the church, but the Bible declares that Jesus is the head of the Church (Col. 1:18), and that "He has put all things under his feet, and made him, as the ruler of everything, the head of the Church; which is his body" (Eph. 1:22, 23, J.B.V.; see also Col. 2:9, 10).

The Pope is the Rock that Jesus built His Church upon in Matt. 18:16  He is God's representative on Earth.  There is no usurping involved - that is a lie perpetuated by Luther.

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The pope also claims the titles of "His Holiness" or "The Holy Father" in direct violation of Christ's warnings to His followers: "You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven" (Matt. 23:9, 10, J.B.V.).

Yep - just like we are told to call no one teacher accept God in heaven - yet Paul called himself teacher.

I am a Catholic convert - I chose to join the Church when I was 30 years old.  In fact I joined with eyes wide open - I pray that you will set aside your prejudiced against Christ's Church and investigate it for yourself, rather than spouting off well trodden Protestant paths for justifying rebellion.  Rome Sweet Home is waiting for you, friend.  I recommend reading anything from Richard Curry (Born Fundamentalist, Born again Catholic). and Scott Hahn - Rome Sweet Home.  I think your eyes will be opened!

R

Offline Dave...

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #67 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 01:29:27 »
ravenlorre

Your pope, who you claim as your authority, tried to hide the sexual abuse by many who are under him. What do you think would have been said of the real apostles had they done the same? This is who you compare your pope to, isn't it? Not other denominations, but to the apostles themselves. What do you think the apostles would have said to your pope for what he has done? What would Jesus have said to him?

You basically dodged the substance of my whole post. I just hope and pray that you come to realise yourself how obvious your flippant replies to my direct questions are to many of us. And there is scripture quoted that contradicts your pope. You never had any intention of dealing with these honestly, did you?

I get it, you don't want to know...you are comfortable with what you believe and are even more comfortable turning your eyes away from the truth to do so. But I don't need to spell all of this out to you, do I?

There is no point in us going any further until you are willing to be honest with yourself. The writing is on the wall, so to speak, just read the posts and links provided.

God bless

Dave


ravenlorre

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #68 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 01:48:49 »
ravenlorre

Your pope, who you claim as your authority, tried to hide the sexual abuse by many who are under him. What do you think would have been said of the real apostles had they done the same? This is who you compare your pope to, isn't it? Not other denominations, but to the apostles themselves. What do you think the apostles would have said to your pope for what he has done? What would Jesus have said to him?

You basically dodged the substance of my whole post. I just hope and pray that you come to realise yourself how obvious your flippant replies to my direct questions are to many of us. And there is scripture quoted that contradicts your pope. You never had any intention of dealing with these honestly, did you?

I get it, you don't want to know...you are comfortable with what you believe and are even more comfortable turning your eyes away from the truth to do so. But I don't need to spell all of this out to you, do I?

There is no point in us going any further until you are willing to be honest with yourself. The writing is on the wall, so to speak, just read the posts and links provided.

God bless

Dave



The Pope followed the same advice from lawyers that were advising your church and all public schools at the time.  Was it right?  Nope.  The Pope should have treated the sex offenders in the church as criminals rather than people who were sick, but hindsight is always right.  Before the McMartin case is California, during the early 80's - sex offenders were treated by all institutions as sick rather than criminal.  Unfortunately, the Catholic Church, like most public schools and churches were about 20 years behind the times and still considered sex offenders as sick rather than criminal. 

I challenge you to hold your own church to the same standard you are holding the Catholic Church to.  All Church's are about 20 years behind the times - mine and yours.  Is it right - no!  Is it a reality - yes!

Jesus is going to be just as hard on my Pope as He is going to be on your spiritual leaders - Lord have mercy!!!

My replies to you reflect the fact that I am sure of myself - they are not flippant.  The fact is, I could easily accuse you of being flippant, but I am suspending my disbelief.

It is too bad that you have resorted to labeling my as a liar - both to myself and everyone else.  Despite the fact that I have been forthright about my honest conversion to Catholicism at the age of 30.  Do you really believe that I decided to close my eyes and dive into heresy after spending 2 years investigating the Catholic Church - despite no outside coercion?

I agree with you that one of us needs to open their eyes to a different point of view - speaking as someone who has been on both sides of the fence - I think you are the one who needs to open their eyes and be honest with themselves

-R

Offline kensington

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #69 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 03:41:03 »
Oh... Stop being so melodramatic Ravelore...  ::drama::   
Broach didn't even get in the discussion until 1/2 through the 3rd page of the topic.

Until then he just ate popcorn and watched.... hardly 4 pages of bashing as you acccuse.  Good grief... a reality check would be nice.  ::tippinghat::

LOL

I am sure I have never been accused of being melodramatic on this forum before!  It doesn't matter to me when Broach decided to jump into the discussion - the fact is the doctrine of the Catholic Church was being questioned from the beginning - and therefore my post stands.  The Catholic Church defined Christian doctrine until Luther - 1500 years after Christ died.  Luther decided to introduce a false doctrine - sola scriptura - in an attempt to break away from Christ's Church.  The problem with his man-made doctrine (Sola Scriptura) was that it wasn't supported by scripture!  Without sola scriptura - there is zero authority to dismiss the doctrine of Purgatory.  All drama excluded.

-R

It was being questioned from the beginning? DUH? That was the topic wasn't it to question if something of doctrine was biblical.

Still now, you blow off the FACT that you falsely accused the rest of us of doing something we were not doing. So, your false accusation against us stands? So be it.  We didn't do what you accused, but you can accuse it and it stands... YET... we have no authority by the WORD OF GOD to dismiss purgatory?

Hmmm.... your argument might have merit if you didn't excuse away truth the way you did.  ::pondering::

 

     
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