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Offline kensington

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #70 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 03:47:05 »
Purgatory is a lie... a lie to keep people beholding to the Church system.  No one can pray you out of Hell, and if there was a purgatory no one could pray you out of there either.

You either receive the blood sacrifice by Jesus Christ for your sins or you don't... there is no in between. Purgatory would mean there was an in between... and that is a lie.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #70 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 03:47:05 »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #71 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 05:24:56 »
Purgatory is a lie... a lie to keep people beholding to the Church system.  No one can pray you out of Hell, and if there was a purgatory no one could pray you out of there either.

You either receive the blood sacrifice by Jesus Christ for your sins or you don't... there is no in between. Purgatory would mean there was an in between... and that is a lie.


 ::amen!::

A day of reckoning is coming.  I wouldn't let my pride stand in the way of accepting the truth.  The Bible does not back up purgatory or the pope.  Any other books have been written by mere men and is not the inspired Word of God.
Peter was not the rock - Christ is.  The Bible in no way implies otherwise.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #71 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 05:24:56 »

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #72 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 06:40:34 »
Oh... Stop being so melodramatic Ravelore...  ::drama::   
Broach didn't even get in the discussion until 1/2 through the 3rd page of the topic.

Until then he just ate popcorn and watched.... hardly 4 pages of bashing as you acccuse.  Good grief... a reality check would be nice.  ::tippinghat::

Maybe you have missed the other threads pertaining to Catholic topics.  It has been quite ugly the past few weeks.  Hence, my decrease in postings lately.

Offline Alethes

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #73 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 13:55:11 »
If the Word of God does not teach there is a purgatory, which it does not, why put it there?  Do we know more than God?   We either believe God's Word/Doctrine or man's word/doctrine.  Personally, I choose to believe God.  ::smile::


Well, the Word of God mentions nothing of the Trinity or Incarnation, not to mention the Rapture.  Why put it there?

I would suggest the following for further research.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp


If the Word of God does not teach there is a purgatory, which it does not, why put it there?  Do we know more than God?   We either believe God's Word/Doctrine or man's word/doctrine.  Personally, I choose to believe God.  ::smile::


Well, the Word of God mentions nothing of the Trinity or Incarnation, not to mention the Rapture.  Why put it there?

I would suggest the following for further research.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp


I understand that you are defending your Church and your beliefs; however, our rule for true  faith and practice is not the Church to which we  belong, but the Word of God.  Is it of utmost importance that we be right in our own eyes, or right in God's eyes?   It isn't what we or others may believe, it is what The Word says that we should believe.  We can only go as far as we have been taught and to be taught by God via His Word is of utmost importance to us.

"Rapture" is not a specific word used in the Bible.  It is a word used by most Christians regarding the "Hope," the return of Christ when the Church of the Body (born-again believers/saints) will meet the Lord "in the air."  This is referred to in 2 Thes 2:1 as the "gathering together."   Even though the word rapture is not specified, the Word of God does teach us that there will be a rapture or gathering together (I Thes 4:16, 17).

How do we determine if the Trinity or a pre-trib rapture/gathering together of born-again Christians are true or false doctrines?  The only way we can know truth from error is to study the Word of God, the Source of all truth.

2 Timothy 2:15:  "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

It's okay to quote other Christian ministers, teachers, theologians and scholars of the Bible, and post links to Christian websites to read what they believe and teach.  However, it is the responsibility of every Christian to find out if what they teach is in accordance with the truth of God's Word.

Acts 17:11:  "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

If we do not do what is written in Acts 17:11 and 2 Timothy 2:15, we will be ignorant of the scriptures and be tossed and blown about with every wind of doctrine.  Our faith will be based on the opinions of men rather than on the Word of Truth.   Since the Word of God does not teach us about a purgatory, or a place where people go to be cleansed of their sins, it is a conept based on man's opinion or doctrine only.   

The Bible makes it very clear that we have been cleansed, totally washed of our sins by the blood of Jesus Christ.  We have already been redeemed, justified, made the righteousness of God, and sanctified/set apart for God via God's gift of holy spirit in us.  We are born again and saved when we believe in the faith  (perfect believing) of Jesus Christ, in His finished work of redemption for us.  "For we are saved by grace [divine favor] through faith [the faith or accomplished believing of Jesus Christ]; and that not of ourselves:  It is the gift of [from] God.  Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8, 9). 

After salvation, it is the responsibility of every born-again Christian to walk according to the Word God has given for us to know and live in, namely; the Church Epistles, which are specifically addressed to the saints.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #73 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 13:55:11 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #74 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 14:09:29 »
Ravenlore's back!  Welcome back!
Any chance of resurrecting the ask-a-Catholic thread?  or would that be hazardous to your well-being?

Anyhow, somewhere in the midst of all the simian dung-throwing going on in here, my question (and point) on the last page got lost.  So I'll repeat it:

Quote from: broach972
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh
Doesn't the blood of Jesus cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness?
Absolutely.  It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross.  But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us.  Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy.   Sanctification is an ongoing process.  Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven.  Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.
I understand your position (or at least I'm arrogant enough to think I do), but....

You didn't quite answer my question.  You say that Christ's blood accomplished salvation.  While I agree, that wasn't what I asked.  I asked if it cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness.

You see...if the purpose for purgatory is to cleanse us in preparation for heaven...
And if the blood of Jesus really cleanses us, rather than just covers us...
Well then...Purgatory is a bit superfluous, dontcha think?

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #74 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 14:09:29 »



Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #75 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 14:37:20 »
Purgatory is a lie... a lie to keep people beholding to the Church system.  No one can pray you out of Hell, and if there was a purgatory no one could pray you out of there either.

You either receive the blood sacrifice by Jesus Christ for your sins or you don't... there is no in between. Purgatory would mean there was an in between... and that is a lie.

 ::amen!::

A day of reckoning is coming.  I wouldn't let my pride stand in the way of accepting the truth.  The Bible does not back up purgatory or the pope.  Any other books have been written by mere men and is not the inspired Word of God.
Peter was not the rock - Christ is.  The Bible in no way implies otherwise.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.   ::smile::

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #76 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 15:06:52 »
Quote from: broach972
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh
Doesn't the blood of Jesus cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness?

Absolutely.  It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross.  But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us.  Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy.   Sanctification is an ongoing process.  Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven.  Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

I understand your position (or at least I'm arrogant enough to think I do), but....

You didn't quite answer my question.  You say that Christ's blood accomplished salvation.  While I agree, that wasn't what I asked.  I asked if it cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness.

You see...if the purpose for purgatory is to cleanse us in preparation for heaven...
And if the blood of Jesus really cleanses us, rather than just covers us...
Well then...Purgatory is a bit superfluous, dontcha think?


I believe that I have answered this question.  Purgatory is simply the place where already saved souls are cleansed of the temporal effects of sin before they are allowed to see the holy face of Almighty God. Revelation 21:27 tells us that "...nothing unclean will enter [Heaven]."

That there are temporal effects of sin is obvious when one considers that even those who have been baptized, who have a deep and intimate relationshp with Jesus, who are the "elect" or "the saved/being saved," or what have you, are subject to pain, work, death and sickness.

The best way to understand the idea of already being forgiven but still having to be cleansed of the temporal effects of sin is by analogy: imagine you are the parent of a 7-year old child who steals a candy bar from the local grocery. The child is repentant, in tears, sobbing his apologies. You, being the good parent (as God, our Father is!) forgive that child and love him and show him your mercy. But being a good parent means that you are also just and will expect that child to pay back the store. Purgatory is God's way of forgiving us, loving us, showing us His mercy and justice -- and making us "pay back the store." Can you imagine what would happen to the child of a parent who never expected that child to "pay back the store" (especially when that same parent believed also that there was nothing that child could do to become "disinherited," as in the "once saved, always saved" doctrine)? As always, the best way to understand Catholic doctrine is to think of God as the wisest, most loving, most merciful, and most just Father that we can possibly envision.

Purgatory is His way of ensuring that Revelation 21:27 is true and that nothing unclean will see Heaven. It is only through Christ's sacrifice that we are shown this mercy! It is Christ and Christ alone Who allows us access to the Father.

It amazes me that such a topic would cause a major debate.  Even if one looks at the Catechism of the Catholic Church, only three paragraphs are devoted to it.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM

I think that some Protestants have given it something of a mystique that simply isn't there.  The Church teaches that purgatory is the final purification, but not that it occurs in any special region in the afterlife. Just as we do not know how time works in the afterlife -- meaning that purgatory may take no time -- we also do not know how space works in the afterlife, especially for unembodied souls -- meaning purgatory may not take place in any special location.

Purgatory is not a middle state between heaven and hell. This perhaps encourages the Protestant to think of it as not only a distinct region of the afterlife (something the Church does not teach) but, even worse, that purgatory is a middle destiny between heaven and hell. This it totally false, and it should be emphasized quite strenuously that everyone who goes to purgatory goes to heaven.  In fact, the reason one goes to purgatory is so that one can be fitted for life in heaven.  Purgatory thus constitutes the cloakroom of heaven, the place you go to get spiffed up before being ushered into the Throne Room.

As I look at the various threads pertaining to Catholic issues, it is becoming clear to me what I think may be the problem.  I think that Protestants often feel (as I know because I was one) that Catholics place as much emphasis on given doctrines as Protestant anti-Catholic literature does. Thus, for example, when a Protestant thinks about a Catholic, he will more often think of him as someone which believes in purgatory rather than someone which believes in the Trinity, and he can mistakenly slip into thinking that purgatory is a more important doctrine to a Catholic than the Trinity.

Thus, because Protestant anti-Catholic polemics focus on areas of (real or perceived) disagreement with Catholics, these areas assume a greater prominence in the Protestant's mind and buys into a distorted view of how important given doctrines are to Catholics. Thus Protestants often imagine Catholicism is a religion of nothing but saints and statues and beads and works and penances and purgatory and suffering and a whole host of minor issues.

In doing this, they are straining at gnats but swallowing camels, missing "the weightier matters" of the Catholic faith and realizing what is more important to Catholics than not. Catholicism is in actuality a religion of God and Christ and the Trinity and redemption and forgiveness and faith and grace and joy, as illustrated by the fact that if you go to Mass and simply listen to the Church's official prayers, you hear a lot more about God and Christ and grace and joy than you do about saints and statues and beads and purgatory.  If anyone thinks differently, then there isn't much I can do and these discussions prove pointless.

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #77 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 15:12:05 »
Would it shock you to believe that even some Protestants acknowledge the concept of Purgatory...

One who was very explicit about it was C.S. Lewis. In his Letters to Malcom, he wrote:

"Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?"

"I believe in Purgatory. . . . Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not beak the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, "With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleansed first.' "It may hurt, you know'--"Even so, sir.'"

"I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much."

"My favorite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am 'coming round',' a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."

But beyond Protestants like Lewis, who openly admit their belief in purgatory, it may be said that Protestants in general believe in purgatory, they just don't call it that. For every historic Protestant will admit that our sinning in this life does not continue into heaven. In fact, they will be quite insistent that although our sanctification is not complete in this life, it will be completed (instantaneously, they say) as soon as this life is over. But that is what purgatory is! -- the final sanctification, the purification. Thus it is permissible to say that many Protestants believe in purgatory without even realizing it.


Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #78 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 15:17:11 »
Would it shock you to believe that even some Protestants acknowledge the concept of Purgatory...

I acknowledge the concept of purgatory...

Offline don has a plan

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #79 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 15:19:03 »
Yet another thread of Catholic-baiting!  I guess everyone is tired of talking about instrumental music and women preachers?

C'mon...Let's bring back the old tried-and-true subjects.  Fill in the blank:

Women 'pastors' who preach in churches with instrumental music and missionary societies are _________ .
I find the use of the word 'pastor' to describe a church leader to be __________ .
I find the very notion of a 'church leader' to be __________ .

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #80 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 15:23:11 »
Would it shock you to believe that even some Protestants acknowledge the concept of Purgatory...

I acknowledge the concept of purgatory...


::headscratch::

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #81 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 15:24:59 »
Yet another thread of Catholic-baiting!  I guess everyone is tired of talking about instrumental music and women preachers?

C'mon...Let's bring back the old tried-and-true subjects.  Fill in the blank:

Women 'pastors' who preach in churches with instrumental music and missionary societies are _________ .
I find the use of the word 'pastor' to describe a church leader to be __________ .
I find the very notion of a 'church leader' to be __________ .


1. unbiblical and bound for hell.

2. offensive and unbiblical.

3. unbiblical and anti-Christ.

Did I get all of them correct?

Offline don has a plan

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #82 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 15:29:07 »
 ::announcement::WE HAVE A WINNER!!!


 ::clappingoverhead::

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #83 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 16:01:25 »
Yet another thread of Catholic-baiting!  I guess everyone is tired of talking about instrumental music and women preachers?

C'mon...Let's bring back the old tried-and-true subjects.  Fill in the blank:

Women 'pastors' who preach in churches with instrumental music and missionary societies are _________ .
I find the use of the word 'pastor' to describe a church leader to be __________ .
I find the very notion of a 'church leader' to be __________ .


1. unbiblical and bound for hell.

2. offensive and unbiblical.

3. unbiblical and anti-Christ.

Did I get all of them correct?

No.

1.) OK as long as they are under the direct authority of the eldership of the church.

2.) Interchangable.. the word pastor is only used once in the scriptures and used interchangeably with the term elder.  So in essense a 'pastor' is a elder with the gift of teaching if looked at in todays context.

3.) A plurality of elders.. there is no single church leader.  The biblical model has always been a plurality of elders with different gifts overseen by a plurality of bishops (presbyters).  So there is no single authority that can lead a church astray, it comes down to a group of elders to keep each other in check.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #84 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 16:07:43 »
Would it shock you to believe that even some Protestants acknowledge the concept of Purgatory...

I acknowledge the concept of purgatory...
::droppingjaw::

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #85 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 16:24:47 »
Would it shock you to believe that even some Protestants acknowledge the concept of Purgatory...

I acknowledge the concept of purgatory...
::droppingjaw::

Calm down.

Just because I acknowledge something doesn't mean I acknowledge it as sound.

Offline Alethes

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #86 on: Mon Mar 10, 2008 - 19:40:03 »
Quote from: broach972
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh
Doesn't the blood of Jesus cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness?

Absolutely.  It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross.  But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us.  Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy.   Sanctification is an ongoing process.  Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven.  Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

I understand your position (or at least I'm arrogant enough to think I do), but....

You didn't quite answer my question.  You say that Christ's blood accomplished salvation.  While I agree, that wasn't what I asked.  I asked if it cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness.

You see...if the purpose for purgatory is to cleanse us in preparation for heaven...
And if the blood of Jesus really cleanses us, rather than just covers us...
Well then...Purgatory is a bit superfluous, dontcha think?


I believe that I have answered this question.  Purgatory is simply the place where already saved souls are cleansed of the temporal effects of sin before they are allowed to see the holy face of Almighty God. Revelation 21:27 tells us that "...nothing unclean will enter [Heaven]."

That there are temporal effects of sin is obvious when one considers that even those who have been baptized, who have a deep and intimate relationshp with Jesus, who are the "elect" or "the saved/being saved," or what have you, are subject to pain, work, death and sickness.

The best way to understand the idea of already being forgiven but still having to be cleansed of the temporal effects of sin is by analogy: imagine you are the parent of a 7-year old child who steals a candy bar from the local grocery. The child is repentant, in tears, sobbing his apologies. You, being the good parent (as God, our Father is!) forgive that child and love him and show him your mercy. But being a good parent means that you are also just and will expect that child to pay back the store. Purgatory is God's way of forgiving us, loving us, showing us His mercy and justice -- and making us "pay back the store." Can you imagine what would happen to the child of a parent who never expected that child to "pay back the store" (especially when that same parent believed also that there was nothing that child could do to become "disinherited," as in the "once saved, always saved" doctrine)? As always, the best way to understand Catholic doctrine is to think of God as the wisest, most loving, most merciful, and most just Father that we can possibly envision.

Purgatory is His way of ensuring that Revelation 21:27 is true and that nothing unclean will see Heaven. It is only through Christ's sacrifice that we are shown this mercy! It is Christ and Christ alone Who allows us access to the Father.

It amazes me that such a topic would cause a major debate.  Even if one looks at the Catechism of the Catholic Church, only three paragraphs are devoted to it.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM

I think that some Protestants have given it something of a mystique that simply isn't there.  The Church teaches that purgatory is the final purification, but not that it occurs in any special region in the afterlife. Just as we do not know how time works in the afterlife -- meaning that purgatory may take no time -- we also do not know how space works in the afterlife, especially for unembodied souls -- meaning purgatory may not take place in any special location.

Purgatory is not a middle state between heaven and hell. This perhaps encourages the Protestant to think of it as not only a distinct region of the afterlife (something the Church does not teach) but, even worse, that purgatory is a middle destiny between heaven and hell. This it totally false, and it should be emphasized quite strenuously that everyone who goes to purgatory goes to heaven.  In fact, the reason one goes to purgatory is so that one can be fitted for life in heaven.  Purgatory thus constitutes the cloakroom of heaven, the place you go to get spiffed up before being ushered into the Throne Room.

As I look at the various threads pertaining to Catholic issues, it is becoming clear to me what I think may be the problem.  I think that Protestants often feel (as I know because I was one) that Catholics place as much emphasis on given doctrines as Protestant anti-Catholic literature does. Thus, for example, when a Protestant thinks about a Catholic, he will more often think of him as someone which believes in purgatory rather than someone which believes in the Trinity, and he can mistakenly slip into thinking that purgatory is a more important doctrine to a Catholic than the Trinity.

Thus, because Protestant anti-Catholic polemics focus on areas of (real or perceived) disagreement with Catholics, these areas assume a greater prominence in the Protestant's mind and buys into a distorted view of how important given doctrines are to Catholics. Thus Protestants often imagine Catholicism is a religion of nothing but saints and statues and beads and works and penances and purgatory and suffering and a whole host of minor issues.

In doing this, they are straining at gnats but swallowing camels, missing "the weightier matters" of the Catholic faith and realizing what is more important to Catholics than not. Catholicism is in actuality a religion of God and Christ and the Trinity and redemption and forgiveness and faith and grace and joy, as illustrated by the fact that if you go to Mass and simply listen to the Church's official prayers, you hear a lot more about God and Christ and grace and joy than you do about saints and statues and beads and purgatory.  If anyone thinks differently, then there isn't much I can do and these discussions prove pointless.



You have no scripture to support your belief or opinion and therefore they are your words and not the written Word of God.  What does that tell you?

Too many Christians write their own bibles and this dishonors God who alone is Author of His Word.

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #87 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 06:28:04 »

You have no scripture to support your belief or opinion and therefore they are your words and not the written Word of God.  What does that tell you?

Too many Christians write their own bibles and this dishonors God who alone is Author of His Word.

Obviously, you haven't read any of my posts....

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #88 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 08:11:06 »
Broach did not write his own Bible.  The pope did.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #89 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 08:30:44 »
Broach did not write his own Bible.  The pope did.


Very sad and very close to the truth...

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #90 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 08:40:26 »
Broach did not write his own Bible.  The pope did.


Very sad and very close to the truth...

Yep...comments like these are sad indeed...

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #91 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 08:41:56 »

Too many Christians write their own bibles and this dishonors God who alone is Author of His Word.

Considering there are thousands of Protestant denominations, I would tend to agree with this.


Offline Bonnie

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #92 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 08:50:27 »
Broach did not write his own Bible.  The pope did.


Very sad and very close to the truth...

Yep...comments like these are sad indeed...


With all due respect, are you saying that the Pope's decision on what is added to the catchism is not final and all good Catholics do not accept and abide by it?

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #93 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 10:10:56 »

With all due respect, are you saying that the Pope's decision on what is added to the catchism is not final and all good Catholics do not accept and abide by it?

You are making quite an assumption that simply isn't true.  With all due respect, your knowledge and understanding of Catholic theology is very limited and quite lacking.

The Catechism is simply a collection of teachings and doctrines that have existed for 2000 years.  Nothing has been "added" to it.  Again, I would strongly suggest that you research the development of doctrine, in addition to the nature of the Papacy before making such comments.  It isn't all about the Pope, as you will see.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #94 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 10:24:53 »

With all due respect, are you saying that the Pope's decision on what is added to the catchism is not final and all good Catholics do not accept and abide by it?

You are making quite an assumption that simply isn't true.  With all due respect, your knowledge and understanding of Catholic theology is very limited and quite lacking.

The Catechism is simply a collection of teachings and doctrines that have existed for 2000 years.  Nothing has been "added" to it.  Again, I would strongly suggest that you research the development of doctrine, in addition to the nature of the Papacy before making such comments.  It isn't all about the Pope, as you will see.


I certainly don't want to make any false accusations.  I will look into the Catechism again.

Offline Alethes

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #95 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 15:52:59 »

You have no scripture to support your belief or opinion and therefore they are your words and not the written Word of God.  What does that tell you?

Too many Christians write their own bibles and this dishonors God who alone is Author of His Word.

Obviously, you haven't read any of my posts....

Yes I have read your post, otherwise I would not make such a statement.  You show no verses to support a purgatory...not one.

Offline broach972

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #96 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 16:20:36 »

You have no scripture to support your belief or opinion and therefore they are your words and not the written Word of God.  What does that tell you?

Too many Christians write their own bibles and this dishonors God who alone is Author of His Word.

Obviously, you haven't read any of my posts....

Yes I have read your post, otherwise I would not make such a statement.  You show no verses to support a purgatory...not one.


Okay...you asked for it....If some of this is over your head, just let me know.   ::smile::

A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #97 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 16:24:33 »
Context is king.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #98 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 16:40:58 »
Purgatory was conceived by the Catholic church as a way to exploit its members and fleece them out of thousands of dollars.  You usually have to pay the priest to have someone prayed out of purgatory......
No you don't. That is not true. I can't believe that anybody would believe such a thing. Resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And you cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).

Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). The purification is necessary because, as I already said, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #99 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 16:50:33 »
Hbr 10:10 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]."

Nothing can sanctify a believer more than the offering of the body of Christ.

Hbr 10:14  "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Those who are sanctified in Christ are perfect through Christ.

If you believe in puratory, you are in effect denying the offering of Jesus.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #100 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 17:33:02 »
Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.
Well, let me try this question again.  I never did get an answer I found satisfactory before.

Does Jesus blood cleanse us from all unrighteousness?  And, if so, what need is there for further cleansing?

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #101 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 17:46:32 »
Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.
Well, let me try this question again.  I never did get an answer I found satisfactory before.

Does Jesus blood cleanse us from all unrighteousness?  And, if so, what need is there for further cleansing?

Yes it does. And all purgatory is is the completion of the lifelong process of sanctification. Thats it. It is not a third place or a second chance.

1 = We are sinners roght up to death.
2 = The souls in heaven are perfected.

1 + 2 = There must be a final sanctification between death and heaven. But, it is NOT a work on our part: It is ALL due to the Blood of Christ and the Sacrfice on Calvary.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #102 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 18:18:52 »
Quote
Quote
Quote
Does Jesus blood cleanse us from all unrighteousness?  And, if so, what need is there for further cleansing?

Yes it does. And all purgatory is is the completion of the lifelong process of sanctification. Thats it. It is not a third place or a second chance.

1 = We are sinners roght up to death.
2 = The souls in heaven are perfected.

1 + 2 = There must be a final sanctification between death and heaven. But, it is NOT a work on our part: It is ALL due to the Blood of Christ and the Sacrfice on Calvary.
Thanks for presenting this as a formal logical argument.  ::smile::

I'll accept both of the two premises stated as is, though I think we define perfect differently.

I don't draw the same conclusion:
1 + 2 = Death effects a change on the soul which renders it perfect.

Note Jesus words:
Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third [day] I shall be perfected.

Check the Greek word as well.  Perfection is inherent in death, and the two concepts are so intertwined  that they virtually share the word (teleios).

Try this:

3 = Suffering will work us to perfection
4 = Death is the natural end of suffering

3 + 4 = Death is the natural end of perfection.

Jarrod
No rebuttal?  No response?  No comment?

No appropriate canned response?  No actual apologetics?

 ::watchingclock::

« Last Edit: Wed Mar 12, 2008 - 13:31:33 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

Offline kensington

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #103 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 21:47:08 »
God told Peter that which He has made clean, is not to be called unclean.

Purgatory calls the clean to be unclean. Jesus BLOOD is all we ever will need to be clean. He cleanses us from sin.  To say we or anyone has to spend time after death being cleansed is a lie... God Himself said not to even say that. He commanded Peter it was not so.
o that.

He has called us clean, purgatory won't cleanse us any more than the blood of Christ has already done.

When speaking to the Moment.. the twinkling of an eye event... so often referred to as the rapture...  Look at what it actually says... Those who are dead (asleep)in Christ shall rise first, and those who remain, will be changed from mortal to immortality in the twinkling of an eye, an instant, to be with the LORD forever.

There is no purgatory there. Changed, instantly to be with the LORD forever.  The LORD does not dwell in a place called Purgatory, but He is seated at the right hand of the Father, and we are not going to a purgatory either. We are not going anywhere that Christ is not and Christ has no need of purgtory, and neither does anyone who has been cleansed by the Blood of the Lamb... God said so ... straight to Peter.


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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #104 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 21:56:35 »
....Purgatory calls the clean to be unclean. Jesus BLOOD is all we ever will need to be clean.....
Jesus' blood does not stop you from suffering and sinning in this life EVEN THOUGH you accept him as Savior, now does it? No. So that does not wash.

It is important to note: Purgatory is ONLY FOR THE SAVED. As I said, it is NOT a second chance, and it is NOT a third place. You could say it is the "doormat" in front of heaven's door where you have to wipe your feet before you go in. (Poor analogy, but you get the point.) The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill, "Heaven" or "Hell". We know at once what our final destiny will be. So, why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

If you guys don't mind me mentioning what the official Catechism Of The Catholic Church states:

CCC 1030 - "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."

CCC 1031 - "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned...  ..by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7."


You can get more scripture quotes here:
http://www.fisheaters.com/purgatory.html
http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm#1029