purgatory

[chosenone]

Jesus said the the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" This was a man who hadn't even believed until that moment just before his death, a thief and sinner. He went straight to be with Jesus in paradise . No mention or purgatory.  Your scriptures say nothing at all  about purgatory or that anyone goes to some other place apart form straight to be with God or to hell.

The Bible also doesn't have the word "Trinity" or "Incarnation" but most Christians believe in the Holy Trinity and that Jesus was incarnated.  The word "Purgatory" simply means "purging" of sins.  And as I pointed out in the Book of Isaiah: 

This understanding of God's holiness and the purging from sin is indicated in some biblical texts. For example, the prophet Isaiah had a vision of God upon a throne with the angels surrounding him crying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts." (Is. 6:1-3) Isaiah's immediae response was "Woe is me!....For I am a man of unclean lips...for my eyes  Lord of hosts!" (Is 6:5). But the Lord sent an angel to purify Isaiah's lips with a burning coal from the altar of God. "And he touched my mouth, and said, 'Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.'" (Is. 6:7) Only then was Isaiah able to speak the Word of God to the people.

As I said the thief on the cross went straight there and he was a sinner like all of us. Jesus talks a lot about heaven and hell but no mention is ever made of any sort of half way house till we are 'good' enough to be with Him. Jesus death is enough to cleanse us and that is what happens. The verse in Isaiah was written before Jesus(and it says nothing about purgatory anyway). Jesus died in our place and he makes us whiter than snow. What He did and does is not incomplete "It is finished" He said not "it is partially finished"
Or are you suggesting that the thief on the cross was perfect already?

[Selene]

As I said the thief on the cross went straight there and he was a sinner like all of us. Jesus talks a lot about heaven and hell but no mention is ever made of any sort of half way house till we are 'good' enough to be with Him.

Then how do you explain the Transfiguration (See Luke 9:30)?  When Jesus was speaking to Moses and Elias (who were already dead), where were they?  We already know that Moses was not in Heaven because Jesus said "no one has entered Heaven (See John 3:13). 

As for Lazarus and the rich man, where did Lazares go after he died?  According to the Bible, it says that Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom (See Luke 16:22-23).  If Heaven and Hell are the only two places that exist, then where is this "Abraham's bosom" that Jesus talked about?  Where was Moses and Elias whom Jesus spoke in the Transfiguration?

 Jesus death is enough to cleanse us and that is what happens.....Jesus died in our place and he makes us whiter than snow. What He did and does is not incomplete "It is finished" He said not "it is partially finished"
Or are you suggesting that the thief on the cross was perfect already?

Surely, you are not saying that you are no longer a sinner?  Jesus' death on the cross gave us redemption, but we're still sinners and in need of repentence.  Didn't you know that at Pentecost, St. Peter told the crowd to "Repent."  Jesus already died and rose from the dead at the time of Pentecost, but St. Peter still told the people to "Repent." (See Acts 2:38).  Therefore, sin still exists in us, and we are still in need to repent and confess our sins.  Yes, Jesus died for our sins and gave us redemption, but this does not mean that we are no longer sinners. 

 The verse in Isaiah was written before Jesus(and it says nothing about purgatory anyway).

And as I pointed out earlier, Scripture also doesn't say anything about the word "Trinity" or "Incarnation" yet you believe in these concepts not mentioned in the Bibile as well.  Furthermore, the Book of Isaiah is part of the Bible.  All Scripture in the Bible is the "Word of God."  So, it doesn't matter that Isaiah was written before Christ.  We consider everything in the Bible the Word of God including the Book of Isaiah.  Surely, you are not going to tell me that the Book of Isaiah is not the Word of God?

[winsome]

Catholics believe that the merits of Jesus' death on the cross suffices for the total remission of sins. Despite his death, however, all people are still sinners. To say that we are no longer sinners is false and even a sin. God is constantly at work throughout our lives to "purge" us of sin. Catholics blieve that God completes this purifying work after a person's death for those whose lives on earth have been oriented toward God and His Will. Purgatory is not a second chance for salvation for those who have rejected God or have lived evil lives. Neither is it a safety net for people who hope that God will overlook serious sin in their lives if they die unrepentant. Rather, Purgatory is a sign of God's mercy toward those who have honestly sought to know God and to do His Will in this life, and yet who die in some degree of bondage to sin or the effects of sin.

Yes, Jesus' death forgave all sins, but people are still sinners; therefore, it is important to repent those sins and be converted. If a person dies in some bondage of sin, this sin and its effects must be removed or purged before the person can see God face-to-face because God is so pure and holy that nothing impure or sinful can enter into his presence ( Rev. 21:27).

Purgatory means that as a person is drawn nearer to God and finally drawin into the full glory of his presence, the remaining sin in a person's life is just burned away by the consuming fire of God's hatred of sin and his love for one bound by it. Sin is purged because it cannot exist in the presence of the all-holy God.

This understanding of God's holiness and he purging from sin is indicated in some biblical texts. For example, the prophet Isaiah had a vision of God upon a throne with the angels surrounding him crying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts." (Is. 6:1-3) Isaiah's immediae response was "Woe is me!....For I am a man of unclean lips...for my eyes have seen...the Lord of hosts!" (Is 6:5). But the Lord sent an angel to purify Isaiah's lips with a burning coal from the altar of God. "And he touched my mouth, and said, 'Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.'" (Is. 6:7) Only then was Isaiah able to speak the Word of God to the people.

The belief in Purgatory is also supported in the ancient Christian practice of praying for the dead. Although you may believe that the Second Book of Maccabees is an apocrophyia, the truth is that the early Christians did pray for the dead. The first Christians were Jewish. Judas Maccabees was a Jew who said a prayer asking God to forgive the sins of his soldiers who died in battle. The only way that prayers for the dead can be of any good or can be praiseworthy is if they actually do some spiritual good. If a person is in Hell, no prayers can help him; if he is in Heaven, no prayers are needed. This praying for the dead is found in Judaism and goes all the way back to biblical times. Today, the Jews still pray for the dead just as the early Christians did.

Excellent post Selene

[winsome]

Jesus said the the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" This was a man who hadn't even believed until that moment just before his death, a thief and sinner. He went straight to be with Jesus in paradise . No mention or purgatory.  Your scriptures say nothing at all  about purgatory or that anyone goes to some other place apart form straight to be with God or to hell.

What is the Paradise Jesus speaks of?

He died on the Friday and rose on the Sunday. Where was he in between?

Peter speaks of Jesus going to preach to the spirits in prison. (1Pet 3:19), usually taken to mean the place where the souls of people who died before the Resurrection were waiting.

Jesus doesn’t say “you will be with me immediately you die” – but “today”.

How long does this final purification take?

Can we speak of time in such circumstances?

The thief on the cross does not negate Purgatory 

[chosenone]

Well at least you admit that it isnt in the Bible thats a start.
Of course there is absolutely NO Biblical evidence for a place other than heaven or hell, or that anyone goes anywhere else than either heaven or hell after they die.I somehow think that God would have put that is the Bible if it existed. The Bible is clear that we all die once and we will all be judged on the last day and those who belong to him with be with Him in heaven and those who dont will go to hell.
No mention EVER of any other place that we have to go after death.No mention AT ALL that we have to recieve 'purging' after death. Its simply not there.The reason why it isnt there is becuause it doesnt exist. Did you know that in the past many many priests made a lot of money with this false teaching after people came to them and gave them money asking them to pray for people in that place so that they woudln't be there too long?. We are told NOT to pray for the dead anyway.
When I die I am going where that thief went and that is to be with Jesus in paradise."Today you WILL be with me in paradise" Clear as day.
I will never understand why people believe these man made doctrines that have absolutely NOTHING about them in the Bible.  Doesnt it bother you that many of the doctrines that you believe are simply not in the Bible but are man made?
It would bother me big time.

[Selene]

Well at least you admit that it isnt in the Bible thats a start.
Of course there is absolutely NO Biblical evidence for a place other than heaven or hell, or that anyone goes anywhere else than either heaven or hell after they die.I somehow think that God would have put that is the Bible if it existed. The Bible is clear that we all die once and we will all be judged on the last day and those who belong to him with be with Him in heaven and those who dont will go to hell.
No mention EVER of any other place that we have to go after death.No mention AT ALL that we have to recieve 'purging' after death. Its simply not there.The reason why it isnt there is becuause it doesnt exist. Did you know that in the past many many priests made a lot of money with this false teaching after people came to them and gave them money asking them to pray for people in that place so that they woudln't be there too long?. We are told NOT to pray for the dead anyway.
When I die I am going where that thief went and that is to be with Jesus in paradise."Today you WILL be with me in paradise" Clear as day.
I will never understand why people believe these man made doctrines that have absolutely NOTHING about them in the Bible.  Doesnt it bother you that many of the doctrines that you believe are simply not in the Bible but are man made?
It would bother me big time.

You still did not explain what Jesus meant when he said that the poor man went to Abraham's bosom (Luke 16::22-23).  You also did not explain where Moses and Elisha was whom Jesus spoke to during the Transfiguration (Luke 9:30).  We know that they were not in Heaven because Jesus stated that no one has entered Heaven (John 3:13)..  The only time the souls were able to enter Heaven was after Christ conquered death and led others into Heaven (See Ephsians 4:8)

Also, Catholics never pray to the dead.  We ask the angels and saints in Heaven to pray for us.  To think that all those in Heaven are dead is a misconception of Heaven.  There is no death in Heaven - only eternal life because God who dwells in Heaven is a God of the living.  He is not a God of the dead. (Matthew 22:32).  Did you not know that in the Scriptures Jesus even spoke to Moses and Elisha who have already gone from the earth (See  LUke 9:30)?   The bodies of Moses and Elisha laid rotting in the earth, but their souls were alive.  Did you also not know that even King David addressed the angels and told them to bless the Lord (See Psalms 103:20).  You see, King David knew that even the angels in Heaven were alive.  There is no death in Heaven.  And if King David can speak to the angels and tell them to bless God, then we Catholics can also do the same.  After all, the angels and saints are our brothers and sisters in Heaven, and they are alive.

[chosenone]

Where does the Bible say that we are to pray to the angels or saints?Especially for them to pray for  those who have died?The Bible ONLY says that we are to pray to God through Jesus. No mention of praying to anyone else Why would we need to anyway?. We can pray to the God of the universe who can do all things. What more do we need? For those of us who live and die after Jesus died, we cannot change anything after death whatsoever. By then it is too late.Therefore prayer for the dead is a total waste of time. We need to pray for the living for whom it isnt too late.
A place of purging isnt there.Jesus has done it all. When God looks at us he sees Jesus. We are covered with His blood.

[winsome]

Purgatory is about sanctification. It is about the consequences of sin not the punishment of the sins themselves. We are born into a sinful condition. “Indeed, I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.” (psalm 51:5).
During our lives we pile sin upon sin. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1Jn 1:8).
Or as St. Paul put it “So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.” (Rom 7:25)

But we are called to be holy as God is holy:
Like obedient children, do not act in compliance with the desires of your former ignorance but, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, “Be holy because I (am) holy.” (1Pet 1:14-16)

Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27). We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God. Indeed we are warned that unless we are holy we will not enter the presence of God

Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:14)

Purgatory is God’s mercy, purging us of those imperfections that prevent us being perfectly holy.

There are several texts that speak of purification by fire:

“In this you rejoice even if now for a little while you have had to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith—being more precious than gold that, though perishable, is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. (1Pet 1:6-7)

“Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Cor 3:12-15).  When Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works)

Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good,
because God tested them and found them worthy of himself;
like gold in the furnace he tried them,
and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them. (Wis 3:5-6)

In practice most Protestants believe in Purgatory but they call it Glorification.

[Selene]

Where does the Bible say that we are to pray to the angels or saints?Especially for them to pray for  those who have died?The Bible ONLY says that we are to pray to God through Jesus. No mention of praying to anyone else Why would we need to anyway?. We can pray to the God of the universe who can do all things. What more do we need? For those of us who live and die after Jesus died, we cannot change anything after death whatsoever. By then it is too late.Therefore prayer for the dead is a total waste of time. We need to pray for the living for whom it isnt too late.
A place of purging isnt there.Jesus has done it all. When God looks at us he sees Jesus. We are covered with His blood.

 

The word "pray" is a form of communication.  For example, when we are sick and we ask a person to pray for us, we are actually asking that person to ask God to help us in our time of illness.  It is the same with the angels and saints.  When we ask the angels and saints to pray for us, we are asking them to ask God to help us.  King David addressed the angels and told them to bless the Lord because he knew that he can communicate with them  (See Psalms 103:20).  Did you not see the biblical scripture in my  previous post.  Here, let me post it for you:  

Psalms 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

The Bible also says that the angels bring alll our prayers to God (See Rev. 5:8 and Rev. 8:3).  Here, let me post the scriptures for you.  

Revelations 5:8-9 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints

Revelations 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

[Selene]

Purgatory is about sanctification. It is about the consequences of sin not the punishment of the sins themselves. We are born into a sinful condition. “Indeed, I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.” (psalm 51:5).
During our lives we pile sin upon sin. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1Jn 1:8).
Or as St. Paul put it “So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.” (Rom 7:25)

But we are called to be holy as God is holy:
Like obedient children, do not act in compliance with the desires of your former ignorance but, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, “Be holy because I (am) holy.” (1Pet 1:14-16)

Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27). We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God. Indeed we are warned that unless we are holy we will not enter the presence of God

Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:14)

Purgatory is God’s mercy, purging us of those imperfections that prevent us being perfectly holy.

There are several texts that speak of purification by fire:

“In this you rejoice even if now for a little while you have had to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith—being more precious than gold that, though perishable, is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. (1Pet 1:6-7)

“Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Cor 3:12-15).  When Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works)

Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good,
because God tested them and found them worthy of himself;
like gold in the furnace he tried them,
and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them. (Wis 3:5-6)

In practice most Protestants believe in Purgatory but they call it Glorification.

Excellent post, and I agree.  Whether it is called glorification or purification, it does not matter.  The simple fact is sin does not exist in Heaven.  For a person to say or even believe that they are no longer a sinner is false.

[Fallen Knight]

Dear Chosenone,
                             Re your quote : "Jesus said the the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" This was a man who hadn't even believed until that moment just before his death, a thief and sinner. He went straight to be with Jesus in paradise . No mention or purgatory. "

Considering a day is like 1000 yrs to GOD ( The Bible ), I wonder how you draw the conclusion that he never spent time in Purgatory.
We are the only ones bound by time for we are in the flesh. I don't believe GOD runs by a seiko wristwatch. So how can you be sure what happened to the thief after death?