purgatory

[methosita]

catholic teachings and doctrines have been raising controversies in the christian community,so now it is time to clear it all. this week is on purgatory,strictly biblical proofs of what the bible says about purgatory in my blog

[removed link per forum rules]

[farouk]

Hebrews 1 says about the sin atoning work at the Cross for believers, that the Lord Jesus 'by himself purged our sins'.

No more purging of sins necessary.

[chosenone]

Amen I agree farouk. To believe in pergutory is to say that Jesus didnt do enough on the cross. He  did IT ALL, and there is absolutely no Biblical proof or need for any further 'purging'. When we die we are either destined for haven or hell. No second chances and no praying for the dead.

[farouk]

"By one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified". (Hebrews)

[TheCatholic]

catholic teachings and doctrines have been raising controversies in the christian community,so now it is time to clear it all. this week is on purgatory,strictly biblical proofs of what the bible says about purgatory in my blog

[removed link per forum rules]

First of all, since the Catholic Church makes up almost 70% of the "Christian Community", your statement is questionable. What you mean to say is that Catholic teachings and doctrines have been raising controversies in the protestant community, which frankly does not concern me in the slightest since protestants teach heresy.

As for Purgatory, I invite people to read some of the articles listed here:
[removed link per forum rules]

.....To believe in pergutory is to say that Jesus didnt do enough on the cross......

That is an absolutely false statement, and it demonstrates that you do not understand what Purgatory actually is.

God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the "burning" ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God. This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God's love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - "purged" - away in the fire of Gods love.

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God, and the finakl stage of the life-long process of sanctification. And this is ALL because of Christ's sacrafice on the cross.

[YuLee]

New here, so don't bash me please :) 

So are you saying purgatory is the final purging of our sins when we die such as:

Mathew 3:12
"His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

I know many interpret this as a separation of good and evil men or more importantly those in Christ and those without Christ.  But I have often wondered if it doesn't refer also to the state of our soul - a process we begin when we come to know Christ.  (I know I went through quite a bit of purging over the years)  I personally don't think all scripture has an either or meaning and believe that it can mean more than one thing.

Your thoughts......

[desertknight]

Romans 8:30  "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

Wiki actually puts it quite nicely for Protestants to understand when explaining the Protestant doctrine of "Glorification"...

Wiki:  "Glorification is the Protestant alternative to purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven."

While purgatory deals with the means by which the elect become perfect, glorification deals with the elect becoming perfect.

The majority of Protestant denominations believe in this form of glorification, although some have alternative names."

That's a pretty good definition.  I don't know of any non-Catholic Christian traditions that do not believe in the purification of the soul after death and before entering the heavenly kingdom as nothing unclean is allowed to even touch "Mt. Zion"  

[winsome]

Catholic understanding is rooted in Judaism. The classic point on this as I’m sure you are aware in 2Macc 12:46 where Judas Maccabeus offers up prayers for the dead, thus indicating that there is some existence after dead that can be helped by prayers. I realise that Protestants probably do not accept this as scriptural, although it was accepted as such by all Christians for almost 1500 years. However there is other evidence that this was a Jewish belief. They called it Gehoim.

“According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments.” (see this link http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-teachings.htm)

Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this "place" of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the "Chevra kaddisha -- gmilat khessed shel emet," the "Holy Society" or "Burial Society" of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner's Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one's purification.
Even the The Talmud1 speaks of Purgatory: Sabbath 33b:
"The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months."
Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
"It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):
(1) one that is completely righteous,
(2) one that is completely wicked,
(3) and one that is in between."

Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.

[desertknight]

I've heard the Qaddish chanted in a synagogue once.  It is hauntingly beautiful and mournful. 

[Selene]

Catholics believe that the merits of Jesus' death on the cross suffices for the total remission of sins. Despite his death, however, all people are still sinners. To say that we are no longer sinners is false and even a sin. God is constantly at work throughout our lives to "purge" us of sin. Catholics blieve that God completes this purifying work after a person's death for those whose lives on earth have been oriented toward God and His Will. Purgatory is not a second chance for salvation for those who have rejected God or have lived evil lives. Neither is it a safety net for people who hope that God will overlook serious sin in their lives if they die unrepentant. Rather, Purgatory is a sign of God's mercy toward those who have honestly sought to know God and to do His Will in this life, and yet who die in some degree of bondage to sin or the effects of sin.

Yes, Jesus' death forgave all sins, but people are still sinners; therefore, it is important to repent those sins and be converted. If a person dies in some bondage of sin, this sin and its effects must be removed or purged before the person can see God face-to-face because God is so pure and holy that nothing impure or sinful can enter into his presence ( Rev. 21:27).

Purgatory means that as a person is drawn nearer to God and finally drawin into the full glory of his presence, the remaining sin in a person's life is just burned away by the consuming fire of God's hatred of sin and his love for one bound by it. Sin is purged because it cannot exist in the presence of the all-holy God.

This understanding of God's holiness and he purging from sin is indicated in some biblical texts. For example, the prophet Isaiah had a vision of God upon a throne with the angels surrounding him crying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts." (Is. 6:1-3) Isaiah's immediae response was "Woe is me!....For I am a man of unclean lips...for my eyes have seen...the Lord of hosts!" (Is 6:5). But the Lord sent an angel to purify Isaiah's lips with a burning coal from the altar of God. "And he touched my mouth, and said, 'Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.'" (Is. 6:7) Only then was Isaiah able to speak the Word of God to the people.

The belief in Purgatory is also supported in the ancient Christian practice of praying for the dead. Although you may believe that the Second Book of Maccabees is an apocrophyia, the truth is that the early Christians did pray for the dead. The first Christians were Jewish. Judas Maccabees was a Jew who said a prayer asking God to forgive the sins of his soldiers who died in battle. The only way that prayers for the dead can be of any good or can be praiseworthy is if they actually do some spiritual good. If a person is in Hell, no prayers can help him; if he is in Heaven, no prayers are needed. This praying for the dead is found in Judaism and goes all the way back to biblical times. Today, the Jews still pray for the dead just as the early Christians did.

[chosenone]

Catholics believe that the merits of Jesus' death on the cross suffices for the total remission of sins. Despite his death, however, all people are still sinners. To say that we are no longer sinners is false and even a sin. God is constantly at work throughout our lives to "purge" us of sin. Catholics blieve that God completes this purifying work after a person's death for those whose lives on earth have been oriented toward God and His Will. Purgatory is not a second chance for salvation for those who have rejected God or have lived evil lives. Neither is it a safety net for people who hope that God will overlook serious sin in their lives if they die unrepentant. Rather, Purgatory is a sign of God's mercy toward those who have honestly sought to know God and to do His Will in this life, and yet who die in some degree of bondage to sin or the effects of sin.

Yes, Jesus' death forgave all sins, but people are still sinners; therefore, it is important to repent those sins and be converted. If a person dies in some bondage of sin, this sin and its effects must be removed or purged before the person can see God face-to-face because God is so pure and holy that nothing impure or sinful can enter into his presence ( Rev. 21:27).

Purgatory means that as a person is drawn nearer to God and finally drawin into the full glory of his presence, the remaining sin in a person's life is just burned away by the consuming fire of God's hatred of sin and his love for one bound by it. Sin is purged because it cannot exist in the presence of the all-holy God.

This understanding of God's holiness and he purging from sin is indicated in some biblical texts. For example, the prophet Isaiah had a vision of God upon a throne with the angels surrounding him crying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts." (Is. 6:1-3) Isaiah's immediae response was "Woe is me!....For I am a man of unclean lips...for my eyes have seen...the Lord of hosts!" (Is 6:5). But the Lord sent an angel to purify Isaiah's lips with a burning coal from the altar of God. "And he touched my mouth, and said, 'Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.'" (Is. 6:7) Only then was Isaiah able to speak the Word of God to the people.

The belief in Purgatory is also supported in the ancient Christian practice of praying for the dead. Although you may believe that the Second Book of Maccabees is an apocrophyia, the truth is that the early Christians did pray for the dead. The first Christians were Jewish. Judas Maccabees was a Jew who said a prayer asking God to forgive the sins of his soldiers who died in battle. The only way that prayers for the dead can be of any good or can be praiseworthy is if they actually do some spiritual good. If a person is in Hell, no prayers can help him; if he is in Heaven, no prayers are needed. This praying for the dead is found in Judaism and goes all the way back to biblical times. Today, the Jews still pray for the dead just as the early Christians did.

 It doesnt matter what we may think or what the denomination that we belong to believes if it isnt Biblical. This simply isnt in the bible.The Bible is our guide and this isnt there.

[desertknight]

Catholics believe that the merits of Jesus' death on the cross suffices for the total remission of sins. Despite his death, however, all people are still sinners. To say that we are no longer sinners is false and even a sin. God is constantly at work throughout our lives to "purge" us of sin. Catholics blieve that God completes this purifying work after a person's death for those whose lives on earth have been oriented toward God and His Will. Purgatory is not a second chance for salvation for those who have rejected God or have lived evil lives. Neither is it a safety net for people who hope that God will overlook serious sin in their lives if they die unrepentant. Rather, Purgatory is a sign of God's mercy toward those who have honestly sought to know God and to do His Will in this life, and yet who die in some degree of bondage to sin or the effects of sin.

Yes, Jesus' death forgave all sins, but people are still sinners; therefore, it is important to repent those sins and be converted. If a person dies in some bondage of sin, this sin and its effects must be removed or purged before the person can see God face-to-face because God is so pure and holy that nothing impure or sinful can enter into his presence ( Rev. 21:27).

Purgatory means that as a person is drawn nearer to God and finally drawin into the full glory of his presence, the remaining sin in a person's life is just burned away by the consuming fire of God's hatred of sin and his love for one bound by it. Sin is purged because it cannot exist in the presence of the all-holy God.

This understanding of God's holiness and he purging from sin is indicated in some biblical texts. For example, the prophet Isaiah had a vision of God upon a throne with the angels surrounding him crying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts." (Is. 6:1-3) Isaiah's immediae response was "Woe is me!....For I am a man of unclean lips...for my eyes have seen...the Lord of hosts!" (Is 6:5). But the Lord sent an angel to purify Isaiah's lips with a burning coal from the altar of God. "And he touched my mouth, and said, 'Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.'" (Is. 6:7) Only then was Isaiah able to speak the Word of God to the people.

The belief in Purgatory is also supported in the ancient Christian practice of praying for the dead. Although you may believe that the Second Book of Maccabees is an apocrophyia, the truth is that the early Christians did pray for the dead. The first Christians were Jewish. Judas Maccabees was a Jew who said a prayer asking God to forgive the sins of his soldiers who died in battle. The only way that prayers for the dead can be of any good or can be praiseworthy is if they actually do some spiritual good. If a person is in Hell, no prayers can help him; if he is in Heaven, no prayers are needed. This praying for the dead is found in Judaism and goes all the way back to biblical times. Today, the Jews still pray for the dead just as the early Christians did.

 It doesnt matter what we may think or what the denomination that we belong to believes if it isnt Biblical. This simply isnt in the bible.The Bible is our guide and this isnt there.

Did you just skip over all of Selene's Biblical quotations?  Even Protestants believe in soul purification before entry of the saved into heaven.  If nothing "unclean" can enter the Kingdom of heaven, then how do the saved enter?  Are only the 100% pure to enter heaven?  When did they become that way?

[Selene]

 It doesnt matter what we may think or what the denomination that we belong to believes if it isnt Biblical. This simply isnt in the bible.The Bible is our guide and this isnt there.

I did provide biblical scripture.  

[chosenone]

 It doesn't matter what we may think or what the denomination that we belong to believes if it isn't Biblical. This simply isn't in the bible.The Bible is our guide and this isn't there.

My brother, I did provide biblical scripture.  

 

Jesus said the the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" This was a man who hadn't even believed until that moment just before his death, a thief and sinner. He went straight to be with Jesus in paradise . No mention or purgatory.  Your scriptures say nothing at all  about purgatory or that anyone goes to some other place apart form straight to be with God or to hell.

[Selene]

Jesus said the the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" This was a man who hadn't even believed until that moment just before his death, a thief and sinner. He went straight to be with Jesus in paradise . No mention or purgatory.  Your scriptures say nothing at all  about purgatory or that anyone goes to some other place apart form straight to be with God or to hell.

The Bible also doesn't have the word "Trinity" or "Incarnation" but most Christians believe in the Holy Trinity and that Jesus was incarnated.  The word "Purgatory" simply means "purging" or "purifying" of sins.  And as I pointed out in the Book of Isaiah: 

This understanding of God's holiness and the purging from sin is indicated in some biblical texts. For example, the prophet Isaiah had a vision of God upon a throne with the angels surrounding him crying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts." (Is. 6:1-3) Isaiah's immedate response was "Woe is me!....For I am a man of unclean lips...for my eyes  Lord of hosts!" (Is 6:5). But the Lord sent an angel to purify Isaiah's lips with a burning coal from the altar of God. "And he touched my mouth, and said, 'Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.'" (Is. 6:7) Only then was Isaiah able to speak the Word of God to the people.