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Offline winsome

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Purgatory - Again!
« on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 08:57:22 »
 Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)

The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:
 
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
“…but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Mt 5:48) 


2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
“But nothing unclean will enter it” [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
 
  3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord (Heb 12;14)

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
“When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” (Ti 3:4-7)
 
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)

6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23)
 This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.
 
God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.
 
Catholics call this process Purgatory.
 
Purgatory
“early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge).”
(Online Etymology Dictionary)
 
Protestantism.
According to Wikipedia many Protestants have a similar concept but call it Glorification.
“Glorification is the Protestant alternative to Purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven." According to the theologies of most major Protestant groups” (Wikipedia)
 
Judaism
Some claim that the concept of purgatory is pagan, but in fact it is rooted in Judaic beliefs.
The classic point on this as I’m sure you are aware in 2Macc 12:46 where Judas Maccabeus offers up prayers for the dead, thus indicating that there is some existence after dead that can be helped by prayers. I realise you probably do not accept this as scriptural, although it was accepted as such by all Christians for almost 1500 years. However it is evidence of a Jewish belief, and there is other evidence that this was a Jewish belief. They called it Gehoim.
 
“According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments.” (see this link http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-teachings.htm)
 
Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this "place" of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the "Chevra kaddisha -- gmilat khessed shel emet," the "Holy Society" or "Burial Society" of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner's Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one's purification.
 Even the The Talmud1 speaks of Purgatory: Sabbath 33b:
 "The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months."
 Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
 "It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):
 (1) one that is completely righteous,
 (2) one that is completely wicked,
 (3) and one that is in between."

 
Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.


To be continued...

 

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Purgatory - Again!
« on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 08:57:22 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #1 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 09:04:08 »
Purgatory continued

Holiness


Purgatory is about becoming holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin.  The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.

We are born into a sinful condition.
“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5).

During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1Jn 1:8).

Or as St. Paul put it
“Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” (Rom 7:25)

Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).

We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
“But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.” (2Pet 3:13-14)

“Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
(1Jn 3:2-3)

We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.


Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. “So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”. (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.

All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to “cover up” such things, they must be expunged.

This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God’s discipline.

“It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.” (Heb 12:7-11).


“Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them.”
(Wis 3:5-6)

Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and “bad attitudes” are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God’s mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.

“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.”
(2Cor 7:1)

Purgatory is God’s mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” - at least most of us couldn’t

Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.

Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.

There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.

16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.


In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.
Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.
The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)
Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.   

The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.

“[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.” (Ti 2:14)

This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.

To be continued…

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #1 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 09:04:08 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #2 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 09:09:01 »
Purgatory continued

Catholic belief:

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. ….. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. (CCC 1031)

Scripture speaks of going through fire:
“thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire [i.e. purgatory] and through water [i.e. baptism]; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.[ i.e. heaven]”. (Psalm 66:12)

“when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning [purgatory].” (Isaiah 4,4)

1Cor 3:10-17 is an important passage
10 “According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.”
11 “For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
12 “Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—“
13 “each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.”
14 “If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.”
15 “If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
16 “Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?”
17 “If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are.”


In verses 10-13 Paul says that when we die our work will be judged. That work is both our good works and our bad works (sins) and that there will be reward or punishment according to these works.
Verse 14 is someone whose work stands. These are the good works, and those with only good works will go straight to heaven.
Verse 15 is someone whose works are burnt up (because they are bad) but the person themselves will be saved. The bad works (sins) were not serious enough to cut themselves off from God.
Verses 16-17 describe someone whose works are so bad that they have destroyed the temple where God dwells (their souls) and cut themselves off from God. God will destroy the person.

Now consider the second case (vs 15)

Someone can suffer loss as though fire but still be saved. There is something other than heaven or hell through which we can pass which will purify us (burn out our sins).

There are other texts that speak of this purifying fire:
“But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.” (Mal 3:2-3)

“In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (1Pet 1:6-7)


There is some punishment remaining after sins have been forgiven
David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." And Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die." Then Nathan went to his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground; but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died." (2 Sam 12:13-18)
God forgave David’s sin but even after he was forgiven there was still punishment for his sin.


There is forgiveness of sin after death.
“And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” (Mt 12:32)
It implies there is forgiveness in the age to come.”
What is this age to come where we can be forgiven sin? Heaven, Hell – or somewhere else?

We must be fully righteous before we are fit for heaven.
“but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1Jn 1:7-9)
If we are not fully righteous when we die then there is a final purification before we are fit to enter heaven. This is what Jesus won for us by the shedding of his blood.

There are also passages that make no sense in a heaven or hell only theology
“My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”  (Jas 5:19-20)

“Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.” (1Pet 4:8)

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #3 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:03:17 »
I would like to publicly ask "Buster da Body Crab" to show evidence that winsome is either incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory or to issue a public apology for saying that purgatory is unscriptural.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #3 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:03:17 »

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #4 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:24:37 »
Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)

The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:
 
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
“…but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Mt 5:48) 


2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
“But nothing unclean will enter it” [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
 
  3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord (Heb 12;14)

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
“When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” (Ti 3:4-7)
 
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)

6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23)
 This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.
 
God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.
 
Catholics call this process Purgatory.

There is not even a suggestion that any of that final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter His presence occurs after death. 

Even the thought that it is needed comes, I believe, from an imperfect concept of what it means to be saved, to be in Christ.  What we have here is the other extreme to the false concept of once-saved-always-saved, namely, here were have a once-saved-but-never-really-saved, also false.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #4 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:24:37 »



Buster D Body Crab

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #5 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:40:51 »
I would like to publicly ask "Buster da Body Crab" to show evidence that winsome is either incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory or to issue a public apology for saying that purgatory is unscriptural.

I would like you to apologize for calling me out here when I answered the challenge in the thread that was closed because this topic of Purgatory derailed it. A thread that you read!  And now you presume to ignore the fact I answered in the other thread and so you wish to make a spectacle here.

So that there is no mistake or election to overlook the excerpt I provided in that aforementioned thread, along with the link to the full text article, I'll post it here for the benefit of everyone. Invoking Fair Use, for education purposes.


LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?"

Answer: According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.

The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, sliver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.


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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #6 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:47:39 »
Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)

The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:
 
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
“…but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Mt 5:48) 


2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
“But nothing unclean will enter it” [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
 
  3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord (Heb 12;14)

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
“When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” (Ti 3:4-7)
 
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)

6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23)
 This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.
 
God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.
 
Catholics call this process Purgatory.

There is not even a suggestion that any of that final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter His presence occurs after death. 

Here is one:

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

This verse implies that there are other sins that will be forgiven in the next life.  A la purgatory.

Also winsome quoted 1 Cor. 3:10-15:
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This refers to "the Day" which is an allusion to the day of judgment.  Works being burned up are sinful works, just like in purgatory.  "They will be saved" just like all in purgatory.

Matthew 5
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

This verse speaks of the adversary, which is easily understood spiritually as to be an allusion to the devil.  A prison can easily be understood as some place other than heaven, and could easily be purgatory.  "You will not get out UNTIL you have paid the last penny" which shows that in fact once the last penny is paid, they will get out.

Purgatory is a place where people go who have been granted mercy through Jesus' sacrifice, which paid for us the eternal penalty for our sins, but who have not satisfied the temporal punishment for sins.  No person could get to heaven apart from Jesus' work; no amount of suffering in hell or purgatory could make up for that eternal punishment which Jesus took upon himself.  But we still suffer for our sins and do in fact suffer temporal consequences for our sins, and they must be burned up so that we can be made perfect, either in this life or, if we are not perfect at the moment of our death, after death, in order to be righteous and pure enough for heaven.

Purgatory doesn't negate or belittle what Jesus did on the cross.  Rather it magnifies the value of the reward that heaven is and does so justly.  God wants us to be perfect as he is perfect and he is merciful enough to make a way for that to be accomplished.

Even the thought that it is needed comes, I believe, from an imperfect concept of what it means to be saved, to be in Christ.  What we have here is the other extreme to the false concept of once-saved-always-saved, namely, here were have a once-saved-but-never-really-saved, also false.
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 13:57:11 by Catholica »

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #7 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:09:40 »
I would like to publicly ask "Buster da Body Crab" to show evidence that winsome is either incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory or to issue a public apology for saying that purgatory is unscriptural.

I would like you to apologize for calling me out here when I answered the challenge in the thread that was closed because this topic of Purgatory derailed it. A thread that you read!  And now you presume to ignore the fact I answered in the other thread and so you wish to make a spectacle here.

So that there is no mistake or election to overlook the excerpt I provided in that aforementioned thread, along with the link to the full text article, I'll post it here for the benefit of everyone. Invoking Fair Use, for education purposes.


LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?"

Answer: According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.

The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, sliver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.




This is a typical Protestant tactic. Instead of actually addressing the points made - make some other point and claim job done!

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #8 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:13:25 »
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?"

Answer:According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Winsome has shown that it is.  This article does not show that it is not.

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8).

Romans 5:8 But God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us.

If the author wants to show that Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins, Romans 5:8 is not helping him.  Jesus died to pay the eternal penalty.  We are called in the gospels to "repent and do works worthy of repentance".  We still suffer temporally as consequence for our sins, and we do so for good reason.

Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient.

Paul says that he "makes up for what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ". (Col. 1:24)  Paul sees that something is "lacking in the sufferings of Christ".  Why can't the author?  He is not here to answer.  Maybe you can answer?

"By his wounds we are healed" is absolutely true, but it doesn't say exactly how that manifests in reality.  Even accepting Christ's suffering for our sins we see that there is still something very wrong with our soul, that we are still inclined to sin.  From the beginning it was not so. 

The way we are "healed" is through partaking in the sufferings of Christ.  It is through that union of our suffering with Christ's suffering that we are healed.

Quote
To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.

The author needs to make up his mind.  Does he believe that we suffer for our sins before death?  Why do we suffer for our sins, if Jesus' atoning sacrifice took away all suffering for our sins?   Rather, Jesus' atoning sacrifice took away the eternal punishment for our sins.  In that act he made atonement.  Anyone who is in purgatory is in Christ Jesus and so is in an imperfect state of being "at one".  Their will is being molded to be truly at one with God's will.  We cannot be at one with God wholly, until our will is at one with God.  Otherwise it is only a real-but-imperfect reconciliation.

The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, sliver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

As winsome has shown, and this article fails to acknowledge, that there is wide evidence for purgatory both in scripture and even belief that precedes Jesus and still exists in some parts of Judaism today that involves praying for the dead.

This passage from this article seems to deny that sin actually puts a stain on our soul.  Winsome has posted at least one scripture that shows that we are to "cleanse ourselves".  That means 1) we need cleansing and 2) we need to take part in the process ourselves, that Jesus doesn't do it all for us.  The above verse isn't the only passage that shows the necessity of purgatory; it is one among many which this article doesn't respond to.  Taken as a whole one can easily see how purgatory fits into the whole of scripture and is very scriptural.  His interpretation of 1 Cor. 3:15, put quite simply, is wrong; it's false.

This part I've edited to deal with his scriptural arguments apart from his "poisoning the well" so that we can see more clarity without his opinion involved.

Quote
...Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27)....

Hebrews 7
27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

This doesn't say what the author says it did.  This is simply stating that the OT sacrifices are now put away because the sacrifice of Jesus replaces them.  It doesn't say what exactly the sacrifice was sufficient for.  The author implies his own opinion (something that he hasn't proved) is the answer, but doesn't support it.

Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to redeem us but it is clear from scripture and experience that we still suffer consequence for sins that is the Father chastising us.  If we are perfect, then why would the Father chastise?  Is this punishment without purpose?  Is that what Christians are supposed to believe?

Quote
Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

His sizing up of Catholic theology is lacking because he doesn't take into account that his definition of grace is not only different from ours, but also not reconcilable with the Bible. 

Grace is not Unmerited Favor

Quote
Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

No scriptural support given, but plenty to the contrary provided by winsome.

Quote
For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.

2 Corinthians 5
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

I would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.  And I would also prefer to be away from work and at home with my family.  Soon I will be away from work, but the long drive exists between me and my family.  The statement in 2 Corinthians 6:8 doesn't demonstrate that when we are away from the body, the only other place to be is at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1
23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

Likewise I desire to depart from work and be with my family.  In the same way, Paul's statement doesn't show that there isn't a step between.  The author wants it to be that way, but the verse doesn't show it.  You can't use a premise to demonstrate a conclusion.

The rest of his statement is an an unsupported statement.

There, now maybe you can try something similar with winsome's posts.   Let's hear it.
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:35 by Catholica »

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #9 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:31 »
Some more scriptures:

“And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful. And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating.” (Lk 12:42-48)

Where will some be beaten heavily and some lightly when Jesus returns? Not heaven because we aren’t beaten there. Not hell because the Master won’t be in hell.

And

 “But he gives more grace; therefore it says, ‘God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.’ Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.” (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.

 

Offline doorknocker

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #10 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:25:14 »
When do we get to heaven?

Where is Christ right now?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #11 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:42:08 »
When do we get to heaven?

Where is Christ right now?

Perhaps you want to start a new thread or address the topic at hand in a more direct way?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #12 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:46:45 »
Here is another verse to ponder.  This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:

2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die.  If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins.  (bad things done while in the body).  If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body).  EACH of us receives what is due us.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #13 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:07:37 »
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?"

Answer:According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Winsome has shown that it is.  This article does not show that it is not.


You asked for scriptures regarding Purgatory and that it does not exist. I have done that.

Again, Purgatory, by definition of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, is a place where venial sins after life are to be purged, sinners are expiating their venial sins before being allowed into Heaven. Given the tradition of confession to Priests, and penance while alive on earth for sins confessed, it appears there is more to do according to Roman Catholic tradition in matters of atonement even after death.

This atonement and suffering after death, doing penance, repeals the work of Jesus on the cross. He who died and took the sins of the world upon himself. And those who accept him as savior, hold faith in the message of the cross and by the grace of God, are redeemed. God remembers their sins no more. They are new creatures in this life. And when they confess sins, because we are still in this world though not of it, it is to God alone with no mortal emissary, per the scriptures.



Neither Winsome nor yourself prove that Purgatory exists in scripture.

Rather, Purgatory is an essential Roman Catholic philosophy.And what you are arguing as Catholics is the doctrine espoused by the Roman Catholic church.

Not all people are Roman Catholic and as such the membership on this forum who may be new to Christianity or are seekers of the way of the Lord could be misled in thinking all of Christendom believes in Purgatory, teaches Purgatory.

Since this is not scripturally sound nor true of all Christians and/or Christian denominations accept that Purgatory exists, the article I provided aptly refutes that ideology.

The Roman Catholic church believes in Purgatory. That does not mean that Christians outside of the authority and dictates of the Roman Catholic church do. And the scriptures in that article give them ample reason to understand why.

Thank you.


Edited to Add: For those Christians who may have missed the full article copied and pasted here prior to this reply: Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?"
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:09:49 by Buster D Body Crab »

Offline doorknocker

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #14 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:42:53 »
Here is another verse to ponder.  This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:

2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die.  If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins.  (bad things done while in the body).  If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body).  EACH of us receives what is due us.

Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?

Jeremiah 31,  34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying,  "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity,  and I will remember their sin no more.

you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body     after we die 

2 Corinthians 5, 10  makes no mention that this is to be   'after we die'


1 Peter 4,  17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.

Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #15 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:46:01 »
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?"

Answer:According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Winsome has shown that it is.  This article does not show that it is not.


You asked for scriptures regarding Purgatory and that it does not exist. I have done that.

Again, Purgatory, by definition of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, is a place where venial sins after life are to be purged, sinners are expiating their venial sins before being allowed into Heaven. Given the tradition of confession to Priests, and penance while alive on earth for sins confessed, it appears there is more to do according to Roman Catholic tradition in matters of atonement even after death.

This atonement and suffering after death, doing penance, repeals the work of Jesus on the cross. He who died and took the sins of the world upon himself. And those who accept him as savior, hold faith in the message of the cross and by the grace of God, are redeemed. God remembers their sins no more. They are new creatures in this life. And when they confess sins, because we are still in this world though not of it, it is to God alone with no mortal emissary, per the scriptures.



Neither Winsome nor yourself prove that Purgatory exists in scripture.

Rather, Purgatory is an essential Roman Catholic philosophy.And what you are arguing as Catholics is the doctrine espoused by the Roman Catholic church.

Not all people are Roman Catholic and as such the membership on this forum who may be new to Christianity or are seekers of the way of the Lord could be misled in thinking all of Christendom believes in Purgatory, teaches Purgatory.

Since this is not scripturally sound nor true of all Christians and/or Christian denominations accept that Purgatory exists, the article I provided aptly refutes that ideology.

The Roman Catholic church believes in Purgatory. That does not mean that Christians outside of the authority and dictates of the Roman Catholic church do. And the scriptures in that article give them ample reason to understand why.

Thank you.


Edited to Add: For those Christians who may have missed the full article copied and pasted here prior to this reply: Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?"


 Apart from your faulty understanding of the atonement you are placing too much emphasis on the word “punishment” in the Catholic Encyclopedia article.
 
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I quoted, says:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)

There is no mention there of punishment but purification. Moreover Purgatory is not defined as a place but as a process.

The Catechism continues:
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.(Mt 12:31-32)

There is mention of punishment elsewhere but this should be seen in terms of the purification necessary to free us from attachment to created things:
…..every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. (CCC 1472).
 
My second post explained this in detail with scriptural support.
 

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #16 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:14:05 »
Here is another verse to ponder.  This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:

2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die.  If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins.  (bad things done while in the body).  If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body).  EACH of us receives what is due us.

Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?

Jeremiah 31,  34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying,  "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity,  and I will remember their sin no more.

you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body     after we die 

2 Corinthians 5, 10  makes no mention that this is to be   'after we die'


1 Peter 4,  17
For the time
hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.

Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die


 Sin has three effects:
 
1. Sin damages (or completely breaks) our relationship with God
2. Sin (normally) has some bad effect on other people
3. Sin spiritually weakens and damages the sinner.
 
When we seek forgiveness from God and are forgiven, this addresses point 1. Our relationship is restored. This is what Jesus did for us.
 
But points 2 & 3 remain. We need to make restitution (if possible) and – with God’s grace – address the disorder in ourselves.
 
Here is a simple example
If my neighbour parks badly outside my house, and block me from getting my car onto my drive, I may lose my temper, smash his car window in my frustration.
 
I’ve committed a sin.
 
I repent and ask God to forgive me. He does, but:
 
My neighbour still has a damaged car.
 
I’ve given in to my bad temper yet again!
 
If I don’t recompense my neighbour am I fit for heaven?
 
If I don’t do something about curbing my temper am I fit for heaven?
 
It’s this last one that is the most important (of these two). We must be pure and holy to be fit for heaven.
 
As I said in my second post:
Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and “bad attitudes” are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God’s mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.
 
 “Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God
.” (2Cor 7:1)
 
 Purgatory is God’s mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven – “the holiness without which no one will see the Lord”  (Heb 12:14) - at least most of us couldn’t
 

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #17 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:17:05 »
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?"

Answer:According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Winsome has shown that it is.  This article does not show that it is not.


You asked for scriptures regarding Purgatory and that it does not exist. I have done that.

I did not ask for "scriptures regarding Purgatory that it does not exist".  I asked for you to "to show evidence that winsome is ...incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory"

which you haven't done.  What you did post has been refuted as false.

Again, Purgatory, by definition of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, is a place where venial sins after life are to be purged, sinners are expiating their venial sins before being allowed into Heaven. Given the tradition of confession to Priests, and penance while alive on earth for sins confessed, it appears there is more to do according to Roman Catholic tradition in matters of atonement even after death.

Sure, Roman Catholic teaching in concert with biblical demonstration, which winsome provided.  When we give scripture, what makes you think, as a Bible Christian, that you can ignore it?

Quote
This atonement and suffering after death, doing penance, repeals the work of Jesus on the cross.

No it doesn't.  As has been explained.

Quote
He who died and took the sins of the world upon himself. And those who accept him as savior, hold faith in the message of the cross and by the grace of God, are redeemed. God remembers their sins no more. They are new creatures in this life. And when they confess sins, because we are still in this world though not of it, it is to God alone with no mortal emissary, per the scriptures.

Still no answer to the scriptures provided.

Quote
Neither Winsome nor yourself prove that Purgatory exists in scripture.

Yes, we do.

Quote
Rather, Purgatory is an essential Roman Catholic philosophy.And what you are arguing as Catholics is the doctrine espoused by the Roman Catholic church.

True.  A true doctrine.

Quote
Not all people are Roman Catholic and as such the membership on this forum who may be new to Christianity or are seekers of the way of the Lord could be misled in thinking all of Christendom believes in Purgatory, teaches Purgatory.

Right, not all Christians believe in the fullness of the truth, but they should.

Quote
Since this is not scripturally sound nor true of all Christians and/or Christian denominations accept that Purgatory exists, the article I provided aptly refutes that ideology.

Purgatory is very scripturally sound.  The article you provided has been refuted and is false.

Quote
The Roman Catholic church believes in Purgatory. That does not mean that Christians outside of the authority and dictates of the Roman Catholic church do. And the scriptures in that article give them ample reason to understand why.

The scriptures that only we have provided show why they should.  Why any Christian would not respond to so much biblical evidence they have to decide for themselves.  Purgatory exists whether they believe in it or not.  It is better to believe in that which is true and there in the Bible, as purgatory is.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #18 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:24:12 »
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?"

Answer:According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Winsome has shown that it is.  This article does not show that it is not.


You asked for scriptures regarding Purgatory and that it does not exist. I have done that.

I did not ask for "scriptures regarding Purgatory that it does not exist".  I asked for you to "to show evidence that winsome is ...incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory"



I shall hold you in my prayers.

Offline doorknocker

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #19 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:26:49 »
Here is another verse to ponder.  This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:

2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die.  If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins.  (bad things done while in the body).  If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body).  EACH of us receives what is due us.

Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?

Jeremiah 31,  34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying,  "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity,  and I will remember their sin no more.

you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body     after we die 

2 Corinthians 5, 10  makes no mention that this is to be   'after we die'


1 Peter 4,  17
For the time
hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.

Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die


 Sin has three effects:
 
1. Sin damages (or completely breaks) our relationship with God
2. Sin (normally) has some bad effect on other people
3. Sin spiritually weakens and damages the sinner.
 
When we seek forgiveness from God and are forgiven, this addresses point 1. Our relationship is restored. This is what Jesus did for us.
 
But points 2 & 3 remain. We need to make restitution (if possible) and – with God’s grace – address the disorder in ourselves.
 
Here is a simple example
If my neighbour parks badly outside my house, and block me from getting my car onto my drive, I may lose my temper, smash his car window in my frustration.
 
I’ve committed a sin.
 
I repent and ask God to forgive me. He does, but:
 
My neighbour still has a damaged car.
 
I’ve given in to my bad temper yet again!
 
If I don’t recompense my neighbour am I fit for heaven?
 
If I don’t do something about curbing my temper am I fit for heaven?
 
It’s this last one that is the most important (of these two). We must be pure and holy to be fit for heaven.
 
As I said in my second post:
Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and “bad attitudes” are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God’s mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.
 
 “Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God
.” (2Cor 7:1)
 
 Purgatory is God’s mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven – “the holiness without which no one will see the Lord”  (Heb 12:14) - at least most of us couldn’t


What your are talking about in your 3 points is very basic.

Any one truly born of the Spirit of God is being perfected in this now and if not, I have doubts whether

that person is truly born again.

Point 2 and 3 is for here right now.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #20 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:27:32 »
Here is another verse to ponder.  This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:

2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die.  If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins.  (bad things done while in the body).  If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body).  EACH of us receives what is due us.

Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?

Jeremiah 31,  34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying,  "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity,  and I will remember their sin no more.

No, he wouldn't.

If you have sins on your soul that you have not repented of and God has not forgiven, would God judge you on them?  Say you repented of some sins and not others, or say you have committed sins since you repented last?

I'm not really interested in anyone else but doorknocker's answer to this question.  If he wants to go on a tangent it is too hard to discuss the thousands of different beliefs that might be present on this board.

Quote
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body     after we die 

2 Corinthians 5, 10  makes no mention that this is to be   'after we die'.


1 Peter 4,  17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.

Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die

Peter is speaking of judgment starting now.  He doesn't say that it ends once a person dies. 

Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

We face consequences for our sins now AND after we die.  God is just and merciful; purgatory is where the two meet.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #21 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:28:56 »
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?"

Answer:According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Winsome has shown that it is.  This article does not show that it is not.


You asked for scriptures regarding Purgatory and that it does not exist. I have done that.

I did not ask for "scriptures regarding Purgatory that it does not exist".  I asked for you to "to show evidence that winsome is ...incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory"


I shall hold you in my prayers.


Yes thank you.  But if you would be much obliged, please respond to winsome's biblical support.

Offline doorknocker

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #22 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:33:05 »
Here is another verse to ponder.  This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:

2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die.  If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins.  (bad things done while in the body).  If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body).  EACH of us receives what is due us.

Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?

Jeremiah 31,  34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying,  "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity,  and I will remember their sin no more.

you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body     after we die 

2 Corinthians 5, 10  makes no mention that this is to be   'after we die'


1 Peter 4,  17
For the time
hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.

Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die


 Sin has three effects:
 
1. Sin damages (or completely breaks) our relationship with God
2. Sin (normally) has some bad effect on other people
3. Sin spiritually weakens and damages the sinner.
 
When we seek forgiveness from God and are forgiven, this addresses point 1. Our relationship is restored. This is what Jesus did for us.
 
But points 2 & 3 remain. We need to make restitution (if possible) and – with God’s grace – address the disorder in ourselves.
 
Here is a simple example
If my neighbour parks badly outside my house, and block me from getting my car onto my drive, I may lose my temper, smash his car window in my frustration.
 
I’ve committed a sin.
 
I repent and ask God to forgive me. He does, but:
 
My neighbour still has a damaged car.
 
I’ve given in to my bad temper yet again!
 
If I don’t recompense my neighbour am I fit for heaven?
 
If I don’t do something about curbing my temper am I fit for heaven?
 
It’s this last one that is the most important (of these two). We must be pure and holy to be fit for heaven.
 
As I said in my second post:
Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and “bad attitudes” are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God’s mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.
 
 “Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God
.” (2Cor 7:1)
 
 Purgatory is God’s mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven – “the holiness without which no one will see the Lord”  (Heb 12:14) - at least most of us couldn’t


1 Peter 4, 1-2
Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same thought, for whoever has suffered in the flesh

has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer by human passions but by the will of God.

Buster D Body Crab

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #23 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:55:10 »



1 Peter 4: 1-2
Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same thought, for whoever has suffered in the flesh

has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer by human passions but by the will of God.


Isn't the apostle Peter wonderful there?  ::smile:: 

Like unto the scriptures regarding our reconciliation with God in that linked article scripture and its full passage in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and going futher in the "More" link attached to that article scripture reference. Particularly these verses: 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, lwho through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

And then there is John 1:1-14 in that article (Posted link here for reference)
And 1 John 2:2 wherein we are blessed to read that Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, the propitiation for our sins and that of the world.
1 Corinthians 15:3(AMP) For I passed on to you first of all what I also had received, that Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for our sins in accordance with [what] the Scriptures [foretold],

Nothing there about how Christ did not pay it all and we believers have to suffer after death to finish our debt. Christ be praised! What an awesome message is the grace of God.


Offline doorknocker

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #24 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:16:42 »
Here is another verse to ponder.  This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:

2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die.  If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins.  (bad things done while in the body).  If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body).  EACH of us receives what is due us.

Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?

Jeremiah 31,  34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying,  "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity,  and I will remember their sin no more.

No, he wouldn't.

If you have sins on your soul that you have not repented of and God has not forgiven, would God judge you on them?  Say you repented of some sins and not others, or say you have committed sins since you repented last?

I'm not really interested in anyone else but doorknocker's answer to this question.  If he wants to go on a tangent it is too hard to discuss the thousands of different beliefs that might be present on this board.

Quote
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body     after we die 

2 Corinthians 5, 10  makes no mention that this is to be   'after we die'.


1 Peter 4,  17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.

Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die

Peter is speaking of judgment starting now.  He doesn't say that it ends once a person dies. 

Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

We face consequences for our sins now AND after we die.  God is just and merciful; purgatory is where the two meet.

If there are unrepentant sins in my life that I haven't asked forgiveness for, then I would not be able to fellowship with
God.
If you had unrepentant sins in your life, let me ask you why you would not ask for forgiveness?

Hebrews 9, 27
For just as it is appointed for all men to die once, and after that comes judgement.

Romans 6,  7-11
For he who has died is freed from  sin.  But if we died with Christ,we believe that we shall also
live with Him.  For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion
over Him. The death He died He died to sin, once and for all, but the life He lives He lives to God.
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

It is appointed for all men to die once,.......Have you died with Christ?

And after that comes judgement.        1 Peter 4, 17
For the time has come for judgement to begin with the household of God.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #25 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:41:52 »
Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)

The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:
 
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
“…but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Mt 5:48) 


2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
“But nothing unclean will enter it” [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
 
  3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord (Heb 12;14)

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
“When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” (Ti 3:4-7)
 
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)

6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23)
 This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.
 
God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.
 
Catholics call this process Purgatory.

There is not even a suggestion that any of that final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter His presence occurs after death. 

Here is one:

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

This verse implies that there are other sins that will be forgiven in the next life.  A la purgatory.

No it doesn't.  It says that sin, namely speaking against the Holy Spirit, will never be forgiven - period. That is all it says.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #26 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:43:58 »
Here is another verse to ponder.  This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:

2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die.  If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins.  (bad things done while in the body).  If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body).  EACH of us receives what is due us.

Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?

Jeremiah 31,  34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying,  "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity,  and I will remember their sin no more.

No, he wouldn't.

If you have sins on your soul that you have not repented of and God has not forgiven, would God judge you on them?  Say you repented of some sins and not others, or say you have committed sins since you repented last?

I'm not really interested in anyone else but doorknocker's answer to this question.  If he wants to go on a tangent it is too hard to discuss the thousands of different beliefs that might be present on this board.

Quote
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body     after we die 

2 Corinthians 5, 10  makes no mention that this is to be   'after we die'.


1 Peter 4,  17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.

Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die

Peter is speaking of judgment starting now.  He doesn't say that it ends once a person dies. 

Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

We face consequences for our sins now AND after we die.  God is just and merciful; purgatory is where the two meet.

If there are unrepentant sins in my life that I haven't asked forgiveness for, then I would not be able to fellowship with
God.
If you had unrepentant sins in your life, let me ask you why you would not ask for forgiveness?

Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed.  They might do so once a day, or once in awhile.  Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.

For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading.  And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies.  No repentance occurred.  Now what?

Quote
Hebrews 9, 27
For just as it is appointed for all men to die once, and after that comes judgement.

Romans 6,  7-11
For he who has died is freed from  sin.  But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also
live with Him.  For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion
over Him. The death He died He died to sin, once and for all, but the life He lives He lives to God.
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

It is appointed for all men to die once,.......Have you died with Christ?

Not the way they are speaking of in Hebrews, not yet.  The way Paul is referring to here, yes, I have died in this way.  And now I try to die to myself daily.

Quote
And after that comes judgement.        1 Peter 4, 17
For the time has come for judgement to begin with the household of God.

The two verses refer to different things.  We can't put together any old verses in the Bible, or else the following would be valid:

Matthew 27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
Luke 10:37b Go, and do likewise.

The judgment is something that happens to the dead:

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

I wish I were surprised that there are no non-Catholic rebuking you on your view on judgment, but I'm not.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #27 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:46:57 »
Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)

The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:
 
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
“…but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Mt 5:48) 


2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
“But nothing unclean will enter it” [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
 
  3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord (Heb 12;14)

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
“When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” (Ti 3:4-7)
 
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)

6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23)
 This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.
 
God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.
 
Catholics call this process Purgatory.

There is not even a suggestion that any of that final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter His presence occurs after death. 

Here is one:

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

This verse implies that there are other sins that will be forgiven in the next life.  A la purgatory.

No it doesn't.  It says that sin, namely speaking against the Holy Spirit, will never be forgiven - period. That is all it says.

No, it's not all it says.

The Jews at the time believed in praying for the dead.  Even if one doesn't accept the books of Maccabees inspired works, even the Jews will admit that they are historically accurate.  And in them there is witness that Judas prayed for some men who had died with idols on their person in the hopes that they could be freed from their sins after death.

That is the context with which the Jews believed and that Jesus was speaking in.  Thereby, Jesus was saying that even though some sins are forgiven after death, this one will not be.

I ask you as well, if you sin immediately before you die and have no chance to repent of that sin, how is your sin forgiven?

Online 4WD

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #28 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:50:35 »

Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed.  They might do so once a day, or once in awhile.  Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.

For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading.  And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies.  No repentance occurred.  Now what?

Rom 7:24  Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.


It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #29 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:51:58 »

Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed.  They might do so once a day, or once in awhile.  Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.

For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading.  And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies.  No repentance occurred.  Now what?

Rom 7:24  Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.


It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.

Is this Christian charity?

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #30 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:58:06 »

Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed.  They might do so once a day, or once in awhile.  Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.

For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading.  And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies.  No repentance occurred.  Now what?

Rom 7:24  Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.


It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.

Is this Christian charity?

Charity??  No.  It is Christian truth.   

Offline doorknocker

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #31 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:58:31 »
Here is another verse to ponder.  This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:

2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die.  If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins.  (bad things done while in the body).  If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body).  EACH of us receives what is due us.

Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?

Jeremiah 31,  34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying,  "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity,  and I will remember their sin no more.

No, he wouldn't.

If you have sins on your soul that you have not repented of and God has not forgiven, would God judge you on them?  Say you repented of some sins and not others, or say you have committed sins since you repented last?

I'm not really interested in anyone else but doorknocker's answer to this question.  If he wants to go on a tangent it is too hard to discuss the thousands of different beliefs that might be present on this board.

Quote
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body     after we die 

2 Corinthians 5, 10  makes no mention that this is to be   'after we die'.


1 Peter 4,  17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.

Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die

Peter is speaking of judgment starting now.  He doesn't say that it ends once a person dies. 

Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

We face consequences for our sins now AND after we die.  God is just and merciful; purgatory is where the two meet.

If there are unrepentant sins in my life that I haven't asked forgiveness for, then I would not be able to fellowship with
God.
If you had unrepentant sins in your life, let me ask you why you would not ask for forgiveness?

Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed.  They might do so once a day, or once in awhile.  Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.

For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading.  And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies.  No repentance occurred.  Now what?

Quote
Hebrews 9, 27
For just as it is appointed for all men to die once, and after that comes judgement.

Romans 6,  7-11
For he who has died is freed from  sin.  But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also
live with Him.  For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion
over Him. The death He died He died to sin, once and for all, but the life He lives He lives to God.
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

It is appointed for all men to die once,.......Have you died with Christ?

Not the way they are speaking of in Hebrews, not yet.  The way Paul is referring to here, yes, I have died in this way.  And now I try to die to myself daily.

Quote
And after that comes judgement.        1 Peter 4, 17
For the time has come for judgement to begin with the household of God.

The two verses refer to different things.  We can't put together any old verses in the Bible, or else the following would be valid:

Matthew 27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
Luke 10:37b Go, and do likewise.

The judgment is something that happens to the dead:

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

I wish I were surprised that there are no non-Catholic rebuking you on your view on judgment, but I'm not.

Judgement, this is what Jesus said in John 5,  24

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life; he does not come

into  judgement,  but has passed from death to life.


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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #32 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 16:04:48 »
Here is another verse to ponder.  This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:

2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die.  If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins.  (bad things done while in the body).  If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body).  EACH of us receives what is due us.

Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?

Jeremiah 31,  34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying,  "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity,  and I will remember their sin no more.

No, he wouldn't.

If you have sins on your soul that you have not repented of and God has not forgiven, would God judge you on them?  Say you repented of some sins and not others, or say you have committed sins since you repented last?

I'm not really interested in anyone else but doorknocker's answer to this question.  If he wants to go on a tangent it is too hard to discuss the thousands of different beliefs that might be present on this board.

Quote
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body     after we die 

2 Corinthians 5, 10  makes no mention that this is to be   'after we die'.


1 Peter 4,  17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.

Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die

Peter is speaking of judgment starting now.  He doesn't say that it ends once a person dies. 

Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

We face consequences for our sins now AND after we die.  God is just and merciful; purgatory is where the two meet.

If there are unrepentant sins in my life that I haven't asked forgiveness for, then I would not be able to fellowship with
God.
If you had unrepentant sins in your life, let me ask you why you would not ask for forgiveness?

Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed.  They might do so once a day, or once in awhile.  Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.

For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading.  And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies.  No repentance occurred.  Now what?

Quote
Hebrews 9, 27
For just as it is appointed for all men to die once, and after that comes judgement.

Romans 6,  7-11
For he who has died is freed from  sin.  But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also
live with Him.  For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion
over Him. The death He died He died to sin, once and for all, but the life He lives He lives to God.
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

It is appointed for all men to die once,.......Have you died with Christ?

Not the way they are speaking of in Hebrews, not yet.  The way Paul is referring to here, yes, I have died in this way.  And now I try to die to myself daily.

Quote
And after that comes judgement.        1 Peter 4, 17
For the time has come for judgement to begin with the household of God.

The two verses refer to different things.  We can't put together any old verses in the Bible, or else the following would be valid:

Matthew 27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
Luke 10:37b Go, and do likewise.

The judgment is something that happens to the dead:

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

I wish I were surprised that there are no non-Catholic rebuking you on your view on judgment, but I'm not.

Judgement, this is what Jesus said in John 5,  24

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life; he does not come

into  judgement,  but has passed from death to life.

Doorknocker, that verse speaks of the regeneration of the believer, the resurrection of the spirit dead in trespass and sins. It is not about judgment at the second coming of Christ.  We know that because verse 25 defines the time,

Joh 5:25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the [spiritually] dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will [spiritually] live.

Verses 28-29 speak of the judgment at the second coming.

Joh 5:28  "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Joh 5:29  and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #33 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 16:08:37 »

Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed.  They might do so once a day, or once in awhile.  Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.

For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading.  And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies.  No repentance occurred.  Now what?

Rom 7:24  Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.


It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.

Is this Christian charity?

Charity??  No.  It is Christian truth.

What exactly were you trying to say?  I believe all of the Bible.  You have to explain how you think it applies.

Buster D Body Crab

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #34 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 16:11:46 »


If there are unrepentant sins in my life that I haven't asked forgiveness for, then I would not be able to fellowship with
God.
If you had unrepentant sins in your life, let me ask you why you would not ask for forgiveness?

Hebrews 9, 27
For just as it is appointed for all men to die once, and after that comes judgement.

Romans 6,  7-11
For he who has died is freed from  sin.  But if we died with Christ,we believe that we shall also
live with Him.  For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion
over Him. The death He died He died to sin, once and for all, but the life He lives He lives to God.
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

It is appointed for all men to die once,.......Have you died with Christ?

And after that comes judgement.        1 Peter 4, 17
For the time has come for judgement to begin with the household of God.



True.
Christians come before the Judgment or Bema seat of God to account for their lives as members of the universal church of God in Christ.
That is not the same as those who died lost in their sins and who answer for that and their life before the Great White Throne of Judgment.

The Bema seat is not a place where we are judged worthy of Hell. It is where we account of our lives as those reborn in Christ.