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Online 4WD

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #35 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 16:53:22 »

Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed.  They might do so once a day, or once in awhile.  Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.

For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading.  And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies.  No repentance occurred.  Now what?

Rom 7:24  Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.


It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.

Is this Christian charity?

Charity??  No.  It is Christian truth.

What exactly were you trying to say?  I believe all of the Bible.  You have to explain how you think it applies.

It was an answer to you hypothetical about the man T-boned and killed before he had a chance to repent.  If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ.  And in Christ there is therefore now no condemnation.  I say again, no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

The Catholic view, apparently, is that one is "in Christ" only when the last sin committed has been "absolved" by a priest following confession.  But of course that doesn't even guarantee that he will make it out of the door of the church before he is no longer in Christ..  Forgiven is not something that God does again and again and again.  Forgiven is a state, a condition of being in Christ.  Baptism for the forgiveness of sin is not something that is good only to the next occurrence of some sin.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #35 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 16:53:22 »

Offline kensington

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #36 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:24:41 »
There is no purgatory.  Not that I can find in the Bible. 

My Catholic Encyclopedia says that it is a "Eschatological idea."  not proven in Scripture but decided on by some men based on how they read a scripture.

Its importance is it's theological significance, and NOT it's factual existence.  (C. Encyclopedia page 502, under purgatory)

It cannot be proven real even by Catholics who believe in it. But, it was formed in the mind of men based on what they thought at the Council of Trent.

Where they were most likely drunk if you ask me.

If there is grace there is no place for Purgatory.  If there is Purgatory, there is no place for grace.  You cannot have it both ways, Jesus Blood covering is enough or it isn't.  It's called "Faith".
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:27:10 by kensington »

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #36 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:24:41 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #37 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17 »

Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed.  They might do so once a day, or once in awhile.  Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.

For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading.  And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies.  No repentance occurred.  Now what?

Rom 7:24  Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.


It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.

Is this Christian charity?

Charity??  No.  It is Christian truth.

What exactly were you trying to say?  I believe all of the Bible.  You have to explain how you think it applies.

It was an answer to you hypothetical about the man T-boned and killed before he had a chance to repent.  If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ.  And in Christ there is therefore now no condemnation.  I say again, no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

The Catholic view, apparently, is that one is "in Christ" only when the last sin committed has been "absolved" by a priest following confession.  But of course that doesn't even guarantee that he will make it out of the door of the church before he is no longer in Christ..  Forgiven is not something that God does again and again and again.  Forgiven is a state, a condition of being in Christ.  Baptism for the forgiveness of sin is not something that is good only to the next occurrence of some sin.

"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ".  So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity?  Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right?  What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"?  This can happen to anyone.  They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?

What a horrible cycle that becomes.  To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will.  Tell me you believe something else.

If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life.  He might, or he might not.  If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place.  But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.

Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above.  And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins".  Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus". 

Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace.  And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".

So regardless of the above statement, those souls who go to purgatory have "no condemnation" because they are "in Christ Jesus".  They all go to heaven.  So hopefully you can see, that Catholic teaching is perfectly in accord with this passage from Romans.

The problem is not with Catholic doctrine.  The problem here is that you believe that all your future sins are forgiven without repenting.  It's simply not true.

Revelation 2
1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:

These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands.
2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.
 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.
5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #38 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:53:30 »
There is no purgatory.  Not that I can find in the Bible. 

My Catholic Encyclopedia says that it is a "Eschatological idea."  not proven in Scripture but decided on by some men based on how they read a scripture.

Its importance is it's theological significance, and NOT it's factual existence.  (C. Encyclopedia page 502, under purgatory)

It cannot be proven real even by Catholics who believe in it. But, it was formed in the mind of men based on what they thought at the Council of Trent.

Where they were most likely drunk if you ask me.

If there is grace there is no place for Purgatory.  If there is Purgatory, there is no place for grace.  You cannot have it both ways, Jesus Blood covering is enough or it isn't.  It's called "Faith".


An "eschatological idea" huh?  That one I haven't heard before.  Interesting, can you give me the ISBN of your Catholic Encyclopedia?  Or the Title, Publication date, or a link on Amazon?

Rather than saying "It cannot be proven real even by Catholics" you might try reading winsome's original posts and perhaps respond to that.

"Most likely drunk" is what they said of the apostles on the day of Pentecost, of Hannah when she was praying to God.  And Jesus was called a drunkard.  So we thank you for that compliment.

Purgatory is grace indeed.  What grace is not is "unmerited favor".

Grace is not unmerited favor.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #38 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:53:30 »

Offline kensington

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #39 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 18:17:19 »
Well Catholica, that is one way to twist it.   ::doh::   And, since we know that Catholicism is based on "works" earning God's favor, I can see why you would say that. 

The reality is be it with or without merits involved, grace is still a gift from a Loving God to those whom His son has redeem through His blood sacrifice at Calvary.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 18:22:58 by kensington »

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #39 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 18:17:19 »



Online 4WD

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #40 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 19:25:06 »

Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed.  They might do so once a day, or once in awhile.  Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.

For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading.  And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies.  No repentance occurred.  Now what?

Rom 7:24  Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.


It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.

Is this Christian charity?

Charity??  No.  It is Christian truth.

What exactly were you trying to say?  I believe all of the Bible.  You have to explain how you think it applies.

It was an answer to you hypothetical about the man T-boned and killed before he had a chance to repent.  If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ.  And in Christ there is therefore now no condemnation.  I say again, no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

The Catholic view, apparently, is that one is "in Christ" only when the last sin committed has been "absolved" by a priest following confession.  But of course that doesn't even guarantee that he will make it out of the door of the church before he is no longer in Christ..  Forgiven is not something that God does again and again and again.  Forgiven is a state, a condition of being in Christ.  Baptism for the forgiveness of sin is not something that is good only to the next occurrence of some sin.

"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ".  So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity? 

Rom 5:20  The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21  so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2  May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?


You seem not to understand the difference between living in sin and committing sin.  We all commit sin. But we do not live in sin.  There is a reason that those in Christ, even though they do commit sin (Rom 7:12ff), are never called sinners in the Bible.
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 19:29:53 by 4WD »

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #41 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 19:37:22 »

Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed.  They might do so once a day, or once in awhile.  Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.

For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading.  And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies.  No repentance occurred.  Now what?

Rom 7:24  Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.


It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.

Is this Christian charity?

Charity??  No.  It is Christian truth.

What exactly were you trying to say?  I believe all of the Bible.  You have to explain how you think it applies.

It was an answer to you hypothetical about the man T-boned and killed before he had a chance to repent.  If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ.  And in Christ there is therefore now no condemnation.  I say again, no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

The Catholic view, apparently, is that one is "in Christ" only when the last sin committed has been "absolved" by a priest following confession.  But of course that doesn't even guarantee that he will make it out of the door of the church before he is no longer in Christ..  Forgiven is not something that God does again and again and again.  Forgiven is a state, a condition of being in Christ.  Baptism for the forgiveness of sin is not something that is good only to the next occurrence of some sin.

Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above.  And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins".  Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus". 


We are not saved by works; rather we are saved by grace through faith.  We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief.  The danger of continuing to sin is not the sin but that sooner or later we will give up our faith in order to continue to live in sin.  When that faith has gone, then we are once again lost through unbelief (Rom 11:19ff).

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #42 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 19:46:28 »
The problem is not with Catholic doctrine.  The problem here is that you believe that all your future sins are forgiven without repenting.  It's simply not true.

I said nothing about not repenting.  But faith in Christ, so long as it is active, drives one to repentance.  But that does not mean that one is lost until he repents.  You spoke earlier about a horrible cycle.  The horrible cycle is the fear of a believing Christian that he might die and still have a sin that has not been forgiven and therefore will not see eternal life with Christ in heaven.  He sins, he thinks he is lost, he confesses, receives absolution only to go through that cycle again and again.   I have seen that fear once to often.  It comes from bad theology and bad teaching.
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 19:50:09 by 4WD »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #43 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 21:29:28 »
Well Catholica, that is one way to twist it.   ::doh::   And, since we know that Catholicism is based on "works" earning God's favor, I can see why you would say that. 

The reality is be it with or without merits involved, grace is still a gift from a Loving God to those whom His son has redeem through His blood sacrifice at Calvary.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the

Did you forget to post the ISBN of your Catholic encyclopedia book?

It's not twisting grace at all.  Try replacing "grace" with unmerited favor some time.  It doesn't work, not in the Bible.

Defining grace as "unmerited favor" is a protestant invention.  Grace is actually the power of God to live the life of Christ.  It is true that it is offered to us by God freely, however in order to receive it we must choose to accept it, and by accepting it we are enabled to not sin and also do the will of God.  When we resist sin and do the will of God, God is pleased, and so we merit reward in heaven.  When we refuse the gift of grace and choose to sin and choose to do our own will instead of God's we merit chastisement and punishment.  In mercy God doesn't punish us completely as we aught, and in mercy God offers us the grace (power) to live as we ought because we are weak vessels.  In justice God decides of his own accord to reward us when we merit it, and in justice sin demands punishment for our sins.

Because God is both merciful and just, in mercy even if we sin, yet still live in Christ, in sanctifying grace, God judges us saved when we die, and will bring us to heaven.  In justice, which is fairness and righteousness, we still pay for our sins, not the eternal punishment which we deserve (because of Christ's sacrifice) but still some punishment and chastisement for the purpose of healing us from our wounds and purifying us like gold in a furnace.

Purgatory is the perfect combination of God's mercy and justice for those who have been saved by cooperating with God's saving grace.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #44 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 21:32:52 »
The problem is not with Catholic doctrine.  The problem here is that you believe that all your future sins are forgiven without repenting.  It's simply not true.

I said nothing about not repenting.  But faith in Christ, so long as it is active, drives one to repentance.  But that does not mean that one is lost until he repents.  You spoke earlier about a horrible cycle.  The horrible cycle is the fear of a believing Christian that he might die and still have a sin that has not been forgiven and therefore will not see eternal life with Christ in heaven.  He sins, he thinks he is lost, he confesses, receives absolution only to go through that cycle again and again.   I have seen that fear once to often.  It comes from bad theology and bad teaching.

Ok, so a person must repent.  Why?  If his sins are forgiven, why must he repent?  In your theology, repentance is superfluous.

There is good fear and bad fear.  If a person commits a mortal sin and thinks that he is lost, he might be!  So that is a good fear because it is reasonable.  If he is struggling against sin, that is what God wants.  What is much worse is that a person sins but his conscience is dulled to the severity of his sin.  He goes merrily along the way to hell and finds himself there at the end of his life.  The sinner who repents will be saved.  The sinner who commits mortal sin post baptism and does not repent will be damned.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #45 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 23:20:23 »
Well Catholica, that is one way to twist it.   ::doh::   And, since we know that Catholicism is based on "works" earning God's favor, I can see why you would say that. 

The reality is be it with or without merits involved, grace is still a gift from a Loving God to those whom His son has redeem through His blood sacrifice at Calvary.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the

Did you forget to post the ISBN of your Catholic encyclopedia book?

It's not twisting grace at all.  Try replacing "grace" with unmerited favor some time.  It doesn't work, not in the Bible.

Defining grace as "unmerited favor" is a protestant invention.  Grace is actually the power of God to live the life of Christ.  It is true that it is offered to us by God freely, however in order to receive it we must choose to accept it, and by accepting it we are enabled to not sin and also do the will of God.  When we resist sin and do the will of God, God is pleased, and so we merit reward in heaven.  When we refuse the gift of grace and choose to sin and choose to do our own will instead of God's we merit chastisement and punishment.  In mercy God doesn't punish us completely as we aught, and in mercy God offers us the grace (power) to live as we ought because we are weak vessels.  In justice God decides of his own accord to reward us when we merit it, and in justice sin demands punishment for our sins.

Because God is both merciful and just, in mercy even if we sin, yet still live in Christ, in sanctifying grace, God judges us saved when we die, and will bring us to heaven.  In justice, which is fairness and righteousness, we still pay for our sins, not the eternal punishment which we deserve (because of Christ's sacrifice) but still some punishment and chastisement for the purpose of healing us from our wounds and purifying us like gold in a furnace.

Purgatory is the perfect combination of God's mercy and justice for those who have been saved by cooperating with God's saving grace.

Except that its not in anyway scriptural as has been pointed out countless times on this forum  Once someone has died they are heading to their eternal destination, heaven or hell. There is no mid way place. We are saved through the blood of Jesus.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #46 on: Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 23:44:17 »
I would like to publicly ask "Buster da Body Crab" to show evidence that winsome is either incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory or to issue a public apology for saying that purgatory is unscriptural.
(deleted due to rule violation in removed post(


Just curious, you say that Paul needed three more years to receive teaching and revelation from Christ,

where did you come up with the three more years?

Many have this concept that Paul was converted and immediately began to make his missionary journeys.   Not so.

Understanding the timing requires a study of Paul's life and the timing of his missionary journeys.  Start with the Book of Galatians.


Gal 1:1  Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Gal 1:2  And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Gal 1:3  Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 1:4  Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal 1:5  To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Gal 1:6  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10  For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Gal 1:11  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12  For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:13  For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Gal 1:14  And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16  To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17  Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18  Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19  But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:20  Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
Gal 1:21  Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
Gal 1:22  And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
Gal 1:23  But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
Gal 1:24  And they glorified God in me.

Gal 2:1  Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
Gal 2:2  And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
Gal 2:3  But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
Gal 2:4  And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 2:5  To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Gal 2:6  But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Gal 2:7  But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8  (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Gal 2:9  And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10  Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
Gal 2:11  But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12  For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13  And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14  But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15  We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17  But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18  For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19  For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Many years passed before the Apostle Paul began his missionary journeys.  The Jews of the Jerusalem, the Palestinian Jews (i.e. Peter), focused on the Palestinian Jews.  The Diaspora Jews had long worshipped in synagogues in the major cities.   The Disaspora began after the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, not after A.D. 70.   Paul had a Hellenist background having been raised in Tarsus and he taught the Hellenist Jews, proselytes, the God-fearers, and the Gentiles, all of those that the Palestinian Jews had not reached.   Paul was seen as one who was trying to undo what the Jerusalem Jews had done and he saw them as those who were trying to stop his efforts of teaching the Gospel of Christ to the Greeks.   



« Last Edit: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 17:51:21 by Buster D Body Crab »

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #47 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 04:39:55 »
Well Catholica, that is one way to twist it.   ::doh::   And, since we know that Catholicism is based on "works" earning God's favor, I can see why you would say that. 

The reality is be it with or without merits involved, grace is still a gift from a Loving God to those whom His son has redeem through His blood sacrifice at Calvary.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the

Did you forget to post the ISBN of your Catholic encyclopedia book?

It's not twisting grace at all.  Try replacing "grace" with unmerited favor some time.  It doesn't work, not in the Bible.

Defining grace as "unmerited favor" is a protestant invention.  Grace is actually the power of God to live the life of Christ.  It is true that it is offered to us by God freely, however in order to receive it we must choose to accept it, and by accepting it we are enabled to not sin and also do the will of God.  When we resist sin and do the will of God, God is pleased, and so we merit reward in heaven.  When we refuse the gift of grace and choose to sin and choose to do our own will instead of God's we merit chastisement and punishment.  In mercy God doesn't punish us completely as we aught, and in mercy God offers us the grace (power) to live as we ought because we are weak vessels.  In justice God decides of his own accord to reward us when we merit it, and in justice sin demands punishment for our sins.

Because God is both merciful and just, in mercy even if we sin, yet still live in Christ, in sanctifying grace, God judges us saved when we die, and will bring us to heaven.  In justice, which is fairness and righteousness, we still pay for our sins, not the eternal punishment which we deserve (because of Christ's sacrifice) but still some punishment and chastisement for the purpose of healing us from our wounds and purifying us like gold in a furnace.

Purgatory is the perfect combination of God's mercy and justice for those who have been saved by cooperating with God's saving grace.

Except that its not in anyway scriptural as has been pointed out countless times on this forum  Once someone has died they are heading to their eternal destination, heaven or hell. There is no mid way place. We are saved through the blood of Jesus.

If you read my first three posts you will find that Purgatory is very much scriptural. So far people have dodged around and avoided answering them.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #48 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 04:49:44 »
At least when Thomas doubted and said that "unless I put my finger into the hole in his side I won't believe" and Jesus showed up with holes, he believed.  People on here have winsome show up with scripture demonstrating purgatory and still they claim that purgatory isn't scriptural.

I don't think you all actually go by the Bible as your final authority at all. Or give it any authority at all actually. You believe whoever you want. If scripture were your final authority then you could not so easily ignore and pass over what winsome wrote. But it's not your final authority.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #49 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 05:18:06 »
We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief. 

Really?

Then what is Matthew :25-31-46 all about?

There is no mention of faith but of works. And those who did no works are sent to eternal damnation.

James also makes it very clear that belief is not enough. Even the demons believe he says and then continues: “Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?” (Jas 2:20).

Jesus gave us two overarching commandments:
Love God
Love neighbour

The works that Jesus refers to in Mt 25 and James refers to in James 2 are works of love.

Paul says:
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. (Gal 5:6)

And gives some examples:
“For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another.  (Gal 5:13)

“with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love (Eph 4:2)

Paul also says:
if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.(1Cor 13:2)

Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. “So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”. (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.

All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to “cover up” such things, they must be expunged.

Or as Paul put it: Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice, (Eph 4:31).


Offline Red Baker

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #50 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 05:36:03 »
If you read my first three posts you will find that Purgatory is very much scriptural. So far people have dodged around and avoided answering them.

I would go one on one with any RCC, or EOC on this subject.  I did read your post in the beginning, and see not one thing that would present a problem with a person who understands the word of God.  I am not going to be a part of this mess, where so many people who have different beliefs are saying things, much that makes no sense and cannot be supported with the word of God.

Where is Thaddeus? Why does he not come here and show his true colors?  Purgatory is a lie.  Your vain attempt to prove that others have similar doctrine, only saying it in another way, is only a device being used in order to support your doctrine that the scriptures will not support.  Does the Catholic forum have a section designed to debate one on one?  If so, then I would come there to debate you on this subject.  You can post again your three post, and I will start with the first one.

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #51 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 05:39:34 »
At least when Thomas doubted and said that "unless I put my finger into the hole in his side I won't believe" and Jesus showed up with holes, he believed.  People on here have winsome show up with scripture demonstrating purgatory and still they claim that purgatory isn't scriptural.

I don't think you all actually go by the Bible as your final authority at all. Or give it any authority at all actually. You believe whoever you want. If scripture were your final authority then you could not so easily ignore and pass over what winsome wrote. But it's not your final authority.

What winsome wrote is a gross misunderstanding of scripture.

The bottom line, you are saying the finished work of Christ on the Cross is not finished, you've got to add to it for it to be complete.

God's plan of redemption for man is not being understood! That's why you guys are Catholics and we are Christians.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #52 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 06:13:37 »
At least when Thomas doubted and said that "unless I put my finger into the hole in his side I won't believe" and Jesus showed up with holes, he believed.  People on here have winsome show up with scripture demonstrating purgatory and still they claim that purgatory isn't scriptural.

I don't think you all actually go by the Bible as your final authority at all. Or give it any authority at all actually. You believe whoever you want. If scripture were your final authority then you could not so easily ignore and pass over what winsome wrote. But it's not your final authority.

What winsome wrote is a gross misunderstanding of scripture.

The bottom line, you are saying the finished work of Christ on the Cross is not finished, you've got to add to it for it to be complete.

God's plan of redemption for man is not being understood! That's why you guys are Catholics and we are Christians.

When a Protestant trots out an unscriptural phrase such as "the finished work of Christ on the Cross" you know they don't understand God's plan of Redemption.

If Christ's work was finished on the cross what is he doing at God's right hand interceeding for us (Rom 8:34)?

If Christ's work was finished on the cross who baptised with the Holy Spirit those in the upper room at Pentecost as promised in Jn 1:33?

If Christ's work was finished on the cross why did he tell the apostles he was going to prepare a place for them (Jn 14:2)?

If Christ's work was finished on the cross why did he appear to the apostles after his resurrection speaking to them about the kingdom of God (Acts 1:3)

And there are more examples I could give of what Christ did and is still doing after he died on the cross.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #53 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:03:08 »
The problem is not with Catholic doctrine.  The problem here is that you believe that all your future sins are forgiven without repenting.  It's simply not true.

I said nothing about not repenting.  But faith in Christ, so long as it is active, drives one to repentance.  But that does not mean that one is lost until he repents.  You spoke earlier about a horrible cycle.  The horrible cycle is the fear of a believing Christian that he might die and still have a sin that has not been forgiven and therefore will not see eternal life with Christ in heaven.  He sins, he thinks he is lost, he confesses, receives absolution only to go through that cycle again and again.   I have seen that fear once to often.  It comes from bad theology and bad teaching.

Ok, so a person must repent.  Why?  If his sins are forgiven, why must he repent?  In your theology, repentance is superfluous.

There is good fear and bad fear.  If a person commits a mortal sin and thinks that he is lost, he might be!  So that is a good fear because it is reasonable.  If he is struggling against sin, that is what God wants.  What is much worse is that a person sins but his conscience is dulled to the severity of his sin.  He goes merrily along the way to hell and finds himself there at the end of his life.  The sinner who repents will be saved.  The sinner who commits mortal sin post baptism and does not repent will be damned.

No it is not superfluous. And as I noted earlier, the Christian is never called a sinner in the Bible.  He does sin but he is never called a sinner.  I do not wish to get into the discussion of "mortal sin", other than to say that I don't hold to the typical view expressed in Catholicism.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #54 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:16:03 »
We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief. 

Really?

Then what is Matthew :25-31-46 all about?

Mat 25:45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Therefore, apparently according to you, if you have ever driven by a homeless person and did not, for whatever reason, minister to him you are lost.  I would guess that you must be in a bit trouble.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #55 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:27:41 »
We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief. 

Really?

Then what is Matthew :25-31-46 all about?

Mat 25:45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Therefore, apparently according to you, if you have ever driven by a homeless person and did not, for whatever reason, minister to him you are lost.  I would guess that you must be in a bit trouble.

That's not what I said - or the implication of what I said.

That's the way you guys do scripture isn't ? - Snip a bit out of context to try and make it say what it doesn't say.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #56 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:38:27 »
We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief. 

Really?

Then what is Matthew :25-31-46 all about?

Mat 25:45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Therefore, apparently according to you, if you have ever driven by a homeless person and did not, for whatever reason, minister to him you are lost.  I would guess that you must be in a bit trouble.

That's not what I said - or the implication of what I said. 

That's the way you guys do scripture isn't ? - Snip a bit out of context to try and make it say what it doesn't say.

That is what you guys do.  On so many things.  Do non-Catholics do that?  Yes, Catholics and non-Catholics alike seem to fall to that.  And it involves not only a bit out of context, but sometimes lots of bits out of context.  It is called eisegesis.  And it runs rampant in far too many ways and places.  I think the whole concept of purgatory fits into that category. Just like original sin, or total depravity, or penance, or......

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #57 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:50:40 »
We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief. 

Really?

Then what is Matthew :25-31-46 all about?

Mat 25:45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Therefore, apparently according to you, if you have ever driven by a homeless person and did not, for whatever reason, minister to him you are lost.  I would guess that you must be in a bit trouble.

That's not what I said - or the implication of what I said. 

That's the way you guys do scripture isn't ? - Snip a bit out of context to try and make it say what it doesn't say.

That is what you guys do.  On so many things.  Do non-Catholics do that?  Yes, Catholics and non-Catholics alike seem to fall to that.  And it involves not only a bit out of context, but sometimes lots of bits out of context.  It is called eisegesis.  And it runs rampant in far too many ways and places.  I think the whole concept of purgatory fits into that category. Just like original sin, or total depravity, or penance, or......

... or anything you personally disagree with!

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #58 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 08:02:28 »
We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief. 

Really?

Then what is Matthew :25-31-46 all about?

Mat 25:45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Therefore, apparently according to you, if you have ever driven by a homeless person and did not, for whatever reason, minister to him you are lost.  I would guess that you must be in a bit trouble.

That's not what I said - or the implication of what I said. 

That's the way you guys do scripture isn't ? - Snip a bit out of context to try and make it say what it doesn't say.

That is what you guys do.  On so many things.  Do non-Catholics do that?  Yes, Catholics and non-Catholics alike seem to fall to that.  And it involves not only a bit out of context, but sometimes lots of bits out of context.  It is called eisegesis.  And it runs rampant in far too many ways and places.  I think the whole concept of purgatory fits into that category. Just like original sin, or total depravity, or penance, or......

... or anything you personally disagree with!

That is no different than you.

Offline winsome

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #59 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 08:46:21 »

 ::pondering:: deleted as quote from post that was removed due to rule violation  ::pondering::

Deleted due to being quote from a post that was removed due to rule violation

Tell me please, was winsome's OP his own knowledge of the Bible or was it culled or copied from some outside source?  More likely the later.  I do find those who continue to lean on an "accepted" historical presentation of Scripture rather than Scripture itself little different that what you accuse of Buster.

You are just more practiced at grabbing at that "accepted" presentation.

 My understanding of Church teaching comes from many sources – scripture, the Catechism, Catholic apologists, other forum posters etc.
 
There is a huge difference between putting all that together to express one’s own understanding of a topic and simply doing a cut and paste from someone else’s work.
 

deleted notreligous and red baker quotes from posts that were removed due to rule violation.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 18:18:45 by Buster D Body Crab »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #60 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:07:14 »

Tell me please, was winsome's OP his own knowledge of the Bible or was it culled or copied from some outside source?  More likely the later.  I do find those who continue to lean on an "accepted" historical presentation of Scripture rather than Scripture itself little different that what you accuse of Buster.

You are just more practiced at grabbing at that "accepted" presentation.

 My understanding of Church teaching comes from many sources – scripture, the Catechism, Catholic apologists, other forum posters etc.
 
There is a huge difference between putting all that together to express one’s own understanding of a topic and simply doing a cut and paste from someone else’s work.

Absolutely.  There is a big difference between someone who has synthesized the gospel into their heart who is able to recall of their own volition verses that demonstrate it, and someone that has to go and find answers on the internet for someone to rescue them from their non-knowledge of scripture.  The first is not ignorant of the scriptures, and the second one is ignorant of the scriptures.

Whenever I post I do it from what I know in my heart, and verses that I remember from both reading and hearing the Bible.  If I can't remember the chapter and verse of something I type in the phrase that I know is there and Google reminds me where in the Bible it is located. 

That's a big difference than copying and pasting something from GotQuestions.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:24:35 by Alan »

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #61 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:44:34 »

Tell me please, was winsome's OP his own knowledge of the Bible or was it culled or copied from some outside source?  More likely the later.  I do find those who continue to lean on an "accepted" historical presentation of Scripture rather than Scripture itself little different that what you accuse of Buster.
Quote
You are just more practiced at grabbing at that "accepted" presentation.

 My understanding of Church teaching comes from many sources – scripture, the Catechism, Catholic apologists, other forum posters etc.
 
There is a huge difference between putting all that together to express one’s own understanding of a topic and simply doing a cut and paste from someone else’s work.

Did you not cut and paste someone else's work in the OP?  If not, then I am impressed.  Not with the lack of understanding in the post, but at least in the amount of work it took to do it.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe.  It should however be referenced accordingly.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:16:04 by Alan »

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #62 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:55:09 »


Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe.  It should however be referenced accordingly.

It is. And always has been. And it has also been stated in certain posts that it is to further the dialog that that source is added. Because sometimes when someone makes a statement about a scripture or a faith tradition that is challenged because it is one's own words. Affording an outside resource that says the same thing demonstrates it is not just one persons opinion. The links provided in excerpted materials, or even full articles copied invoking Fair Use for education purposes, because it becomes necessary when people refuse to read links and excerpts and seek out more in that article linked, are noted too.


Offline Adamski

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #63 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06 »
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #64 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48 »
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #65 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:04:27 »


Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe.  It should however be referenced accordingly.

It is. And always has been. And it has also been stated in certain posts that it is to further the dialog that that source is added. Because sometimes when someone makes a statement about a scripture or a faith tradition that is challenged because it is one's own words. Affording an outside resource that says the same thing demonstrates it is not just one persons opinion. The links provided in excerpted materials, or even full articles copied invoking Fair Use for education purposes, because it becomes necessary when people refuse to read links and excerpts and seek out more in that article linked, are noted too.

They don't add much to the discussion however, because the post author can't defend the reference material as he didn't write it, and the author of the reference material is not here to defend it himself.

The former is borne out by the inability of the poster to answer to refutations of the reference material with anything but sheer opinion.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #66 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17 »
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

Offline Alan

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #67 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:12:08 »
Guys, lets keep this thread on topic and please refrain from personal attacks on another members character.

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #68 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:12:19 »


Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe.  It should however be referenced accordingly.

It is. And always has been. And it has also been stated in certain posts that it is to further the dialog that that source is added. Because sometimes when someone makes a statement about a scripture or a faith tradition that is challenged because it is one's own words. Affording an outside resource that says the same thing demonstrates it is not just one persons opinion. The links provided in excerpted materials, or even full articles copied invoking Fair Use for education purposes, because it becomes necessary when people refuse to read links and excerpts and seek out more in that article linked, are noted too.

They don't add much to the discussion however, because the post author can't defend the reference material as he didn't write it, and the author of the reference material is not here to defend it himself.

The former is borne out by the inability of the poster to answer to refutations of the reference material with anything but sheer opinion.

Good grief Catholica, most of what you post here is sheer opinion.  Yours or someone else's.  The minute you make a statement other than a direct quote from the Scriptures it is nothing more than opinion.  And it really matters little that it is the opinion of someone who lived 2000 years ago or is still living today.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Purgatory - Again!
« Reply #69 on: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:17:22 »
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

Do you think people in hell are "contrite, repentant and confessant"?  Or do you think Jesus is talking about purgatory in that passage in scripture?

If the former then why are you asking the question?  If the latter then why are you arguing against purgatory?  Actually either way, why are you asking the question?  Where do you think the rich man is?
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:22:22 by Catholica »