PURGATORY

[Ladonia]

Question arises of course, if an idea is only infallible once it is presented ex cathedra...then which fallible person decides that the idea is going to be presented ex cathedra?

We are not referring to ideas. We are referring to doctrines handed down by Jesus via the apostles. That same Jesus who promised his Church that the gates of hell would not prevail against it; that same Jesus who promised to lead the apostles into all truth; that same Jesus who gave the apostles the authority to bind and lose; that same Jesus who promised his apostles he would be with them always. Jesus has not deserted his Church and has given his Church a share in his infallibility so that those who follow its teaching are assured of the truth..

I studied Matthew 16:18. It is not about the RCC,

It's about the one true Church that Jesus Christ founded and that is the Catholic Church

but let’s assume that we are wrong and that you’re right about it. Ok, the next step is to study what you guys taught. Here is the problem, I found many errors.

You think you found errors but you are in error there.

The bible does not make anyone a Catholic.

Of course the Bible doesn't make anyone Catholic. It's a book.

Anyd you don't become a Christian of any sort by reading the Bible either.

So, do we need a miracle to know the truth? There is no other way.

To know the truth listen to what the Catholic Church teaches.

 Before God and the holy angels and the great clouds of witnesses, of Hebrews 12~I do not know one doctrine that the Catholic Church teach that is not in some way corrupted! by them.

I agree that we don't become a Christian by reading the scripture~Eternally we were elected by grace to be part of the Church of God; Legally were part of the body of Christ when he was put to death and resurrect from the dead; vitally we were quicken by the Spirit of God to be part of the church of Christ; Practically Through the holy scriptures we have a knowledge that we are part of the church that the gates of hell shall not prevail against! It is the church of the first born, which are written in heaven, called Mount Zion, the true city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.  Have you ever heard of this church?

RB

Yes, there is this spiritual church that all Christians are members of, we are all parts of the "Body of Christ". But as things started out, there was formed a "physical church", a corporate church if you will, here on the earth and given a mandate by Christ himself to be the teaching church, to continue the work of Christ after he was gone. That my friend is the Universal (Catholic) Church and is proved by historical fact, that at one point only one Christian church existed that everyone belonged and looked to. This church formed the basic Christian doctrines that we all believe today through the Bishops and the various councils and synods they held in those early days.. (See the writings of the Early Church Fathers). And then the great apostasies reared their ugly heads, the schisms that resulted threw the Christion world into turmoil, a reality that none of us should be proud of. So yes, there was/is a spiritual and physical church, both of whom are entities of reality.

[Lively Stone]

Yes, there is this spiritual church that all Christians are members of, we are all parts of the "Body of Christ". But as things started out, there was formed a "physical church", a corporate church if you will, here on the earth and given a mandate by Christ himself to be the teaching church, to continue the work of Christ after he was gone. That my friend is the Universal (Catholic) Church and is proved by historical fact, that at one point only one Christian church existed that everyone belonged and looked to. This church formed the basic Christian doctrines that we all believe today through the Bishops and the various councils and synods they held in those early days.. (See the writings of the Early Church Fathers). And then the great apostasies reared their ugly heads, the schisms that resulted threw the Christion world into turmoil, a reality that none of us should be proud of. So yes, there was/is a spiritual and physical church, both of whom are entities of reality.

This is where the error begins.

[winsome]

Question arises of course, if an idea is only infallible once it is presented ex cathedra...then which fallible person decides that the idea is going to be presented ex cathedra?

We are not referring to ideas. We are referring to doctrines handed down by Jesus via the apostles. That same Jesus who promised his Church that the gates of hell would not prevail against it; that same Jesus who promised to lead the apostles into all truth; that same Jesus who gave the apostles the authority to bind and lose; that same Jesus who promised his apostles he would be with them always. Jesus has not deserted his Church and has given his Church a share in his infallibility so that those who follow its teaching are assured of the truth..

I studied Matthew 16:18. It is not about the RCC,

It's about the one true Church that Jesus Christ founded and that is the Catholic Church

but let’s assume that we are wrong and that you’re right about it. Ok, the next step is to study what you guys taught. Here is the problem, I found many errors.

You think you found errors but you are in error there.

The bible does not make anyone a Catholic.

Of course the Bible doesn't make anyone Catholic. It's a book.

Anyd you don't become a Christian of any sort by reading the Bible either.

So, do we need a miracle to know the truth? There is no other way.

To know the truth listen to what the Catholic Church teaches.

 Before God and the holy angels and the great clouds of witnesses, of Hebrews 12~I do not know one doctrine that the Catholic Church teach that is not in some way corrupted! by them.

I agree that we don't become a Christian by reading the scripture~Eternally we were elected by grace to be part of the Church of God; Legally were part of the body of Christ when he was put to death and resurrect from the dead; vitally we were quicken by the Spirit of God to be part of the church of Christ; Practically Through the holy scriptures we have a knowledge that we are part of the church that the gates of hell shall not prevail against! It is the church of the first born, which are written in heaven, called Mount Zion, the true city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.  Have you ever heard of this church?

RB

Red

In "Is Baptism a work" thread in Theology you promised to start a thread explaining your theology os salvation but haven't

Instead you just seem to go around giving your opinions and making negative comments. No evidence to back them up.

You are nothing but a troll.

[Ladonia]

Yes, there is this spiritual church that all Christians are members of, we are all parts of the "Body of Christ". But as things started out, there was formed a "physical church", a corporate church if you will, here on the earth and given a mandate by Christ himself to be the teaching church, to continue the work of Christ after he was gone. That my friend is the Universal (Catholic) Church and is proved by historical fact, that at one point only one Christian church existed that everyone belonged and looked to. This church formed the basic Christian doctrines that we all believe today through the Bishops and the various councils and synods they held in those early days.. (See the writings of the Early Church Fathers). And then the great apostasies reared their ugly heads, the schisms that resulted threw the Christion world into turmoil, a reality that none of us should be proud of. So yes, there was/is a spiritual and physical church, both of whom are entities of reality.

This is where the error begins.

You can't change the reality of Christendom as it was formed and existed no matter how hard you try.

[Lively Stone]

Yes, there is this spiritual church that all Christians are members of, we are all parts of the "Body of Christ". But as things started out, there was formed a "physical church", a corporate church if you will, here on the earth and given a mandate by Christ himself to be the teaching church, to continue the work of Christ after he was gone. That my friend is the Universal (Catholic) Church and is proved by historical fact, that at one point only one Christian church existed that everyone belonged and looked to. This church formed the basic Christian doctrines that we all believe today through the Bishops and the various councils and synods they held in those early days.. (See the writings of the Early Church Fathers). And then the great apostasies reared their ugly heads, the schisms that resulted threw the Christion world into turmoil, a reality that none of us should be proud of. So yes, there was/is a spiritual and physical church, both of whom are entities of reality.

This is where the error begins.

You can't change the reality of Christendom as it was formed and existed no matter how hard you try.

Yes, that is correct, but the Catholic religion has done a recalculation and placed itself as the be-all and end-all, when Jesus has never established it. He has established His Body in the world, made up of real flesh and blood people, the building blocks of His true Church...not a religious edifice.

1 Peter 2:4-5

Living Stones for God’s House

4 You are coming to Christ, who is the living cornerstone of God’s temple. He was rejected by people, but he was chosen by God for great honor.

5 And you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What’s more, you are his holy priests. Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God.

[neophyte]

Lively Stone, if your church does not follow Apostolic Traditional Teaching then your church was not formed by Jesus. Jesus based His new religion on the Apostles. The Church was based on His Apostles. Again,if your church can not trace it's religious lineage directly back to the Apostles and Jesus then your church was not formed by Jesus.

[neophyte]

The following was copied from John Salza of Scripture Catholic-

Because the Old and New Testament Scriptures are the divinely-revealed, written Word of God, Catholics venerate the Scriptures as they venerate the Lord's body. But Catholics do not believe that God has given us His divine Revelation in Christ exclusively through Scripture. Catholics also believe that God's Revelation comes to us through the Apostolic Tradition and teaching authority of the Church.

What Church? Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).

By virtue of this divinely-appointed authority, the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture (what books belong in the Bible) at the end of the fourth century. We therefore believe in the Scriptures on the authority of the Catholic Church. After all, nothing in Scripture tells us what Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17). It is through the teaching authority and Apostolic Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2) of this Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16,26; 16:13), that we know of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and the manifold wisdom of God. (cf. Ephesians 3:10).

[Red Baker]

Question arises of course, if an idea is only infallible once it is presented ex cathedra...then which fallible person decides that the idea is going to be presented ex cathedra?

We are not referring to ideas. We are referring to doctrines handed down by Jesus via the apostles. That same Jesus who promised his Church that the gates of hell would not prevail against it; that same Jesus who promised to lead the apostles into all truth; that same Jesus who gave the apostles the authority to bind and lose; that same Jesus who promised his apostles he would be with them always. Jesus has not deserted his Church and has given his Church a share in his infallibility so that those who follow its teaching are assured of the truth..

I studied Matthew 16:18. It is not about the RCC,

It's about the one true Church that Jesus Christ founded and that is the Catholic Church

but let’s assume that we are wrong and that you’re right about it. Ok, the next step is to study what you guys taught. Here is the problem, I found many errors.

You think you found errors but you are in error there.

The bible does not make anyone a Catholic.

Of course the Bible doesn't make anyone Catholic. It's a book.

Anyd you don't become a Christian of any sort by reading the Bible either.

So, do we need a miracle to know the truth? There is no other way.

To know the truth listen to what the Catholic Church teaches.

 Before God and the holy angels and the great clouds of witnesses, of Hebrews 12~I do not know one doctrine that the Catholic Church teach that is not in some way corrupted! by them.

I agree that we don't become a Christian by reading the scripture~Eternally we were elected by grace to be part of the Church of God; Legally were part of the body of Christ when he was put to death and resurrect from the dead; vitally we were quicken by the Spirit of God to be part of the church of Christ; Practically Through the holy scriptures we have a knowledge that we are part of the church that the gates of hell shall not prevail against! It is the church of the first born, which are written in heaven, called Mount Zion, the true city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.  Have you ever heard of this church?

RB

Red

In "Is Baptism a work" thread in Theology you promised to start a thread explaining your theology os salvation but haven't

Instead you just seem to go around giving your opinions and making negative comments. No evidence to back them up.

You are nothing but a troll.

Greetings Winsome,

You are correct I did promised that, and will, at a convenient time.  I did not give a specific date, but will.  You comment about me being a troll, well, I guess you have point, since everyone on this forum and others that I have seen, do indeed troll around and make comments, fishing for the true elect, to that they can help them to better understand the scriptures.  I do not troll just to hurt people, and to make negative comments, that statement is surmising on your part.  I would never accuse someone of that, because we cannot know anyone's heart totally.  But no problem, I reckon by my strong temperance, that that could be in people's mind, but trust me, I do not dislike any particular religionist body, just because I may differ from them, it is their teaching against the scriptures that we war against.  There are some very sincere Catholics, I know some personally, and have respect for them as a person, but must reject their doctrines, if I cannot find support from the scriptures.  Paul exhorted us to rebuke certain people strongly, that they may be sound in the faith. Titus 1.  Neither you or me, should protest against anyone speaking hard against us, for they are only doing what they should do, if they truly love us as they should. Leviticus 19:17  I do not know where God's elect are, only God does, our duty is to be faithful to the scriptures first and foremost, and then see who loves the scriptures by them clinking to the word of God alone, and defending them above everything else, including, but not limiting to our church affiliation.   

Take care~RB

[chosenone]

Lively Stone, if your church does not follow Apostolic Traditional Teaching then your church was not formed by Jesus. Jesus based His new religion on the Apostles. The Church was based on His Apostles. Again,if your church can not trace it's religious lineage directly back to the Apostles and Jesus then your church was not formed by Jesus.

 All Christians are part of Christs body, no matter which church they go to, or none. I choose to go to churches that I see are sticking closely to Biblical truth. It doesnt matter to me what denomination they are, as long as they are following God, allowing Him to lead them, and that Gods presence is evident. I have been to Anglican, Anglical/Methodist, Baptist(I was saved there),Vineyard and New Frontiers churches.

[neophyte]

chosenone,the Second Vatican Council, in Lumen Gentium, stated the Church is the people of God. Protestants see this as pretty much it. They understand church as a name for a structure-less body of people who follow Christ and believe in his divinity as the second Person of the Holy Trinity, revealed in the Bible alone.

Catholics, on the other hand, understand the Church also in terms of a hierarchical structure, with definite authority given to it by Jesus in the person of Peter and therefore to his successors. We see in Scripture much evidence that Jesus gave personal attention to the apostles, preparing them to minister after he was no longer with them. “Anyone who listens to you listens to me; anyone who rejects you rejects me, and those who reject me reject the one who sent me” (Lk 10:16). There was no reason for him to prepare them for only their lifetime. The early Church Fathers verify this. The early Church does not fall into the Protestant vision of a structure-less, sacrament-less body of believers. It was hierarchically structured and sacramental. The canon of the New Testament, on which Protestants base all their faith, is the product of this Church.

[Lively Stone]

Lively Stone, if your church does not follow Apostolic Traditional Teaching then your church was not formed by Jesus. Jesus based His new religion on the Apostles. The Church was based on His Apostles. Again,if your church can not trace it's religious lineage directly back to the Apostles and Jesus then your church was not formed by Jesus.

The Church that the people of our church belong to is the Church of Jesus Christ, which He has established. We comprise His Body. Your thinking in terms of the physical church, which is not at all what we are discussing. There are many diverse groups that identify as local church groups, but in terms of the Church with a capital 'C'---that is the people of God worldwide...His Body in the world, and that is the Church to which I, and all born again believers primarily belong.

Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold I am laying in Zion a Stone that will make men stumble, a Rock that will make them fall; but he who believes in Him [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] shall not be put to shame nor be disappointed in his expectations.


There is no such thing as apostolic succession, as the scriptures do not teach it. Jesus did not come to establish a religion, and what He did establish was not based on the apostles, but on Himself, for He alone is the Rock.

[Lively Stone]

chosenone,the Second Vatican Council, in Lumen Gentium, stated the Church is the people of God. Protestants see this as pretty much it. They understand church as a name for a structure-less body of people who follow Christ and believe in his divinity as the second Person of the Holy Trinity, revealed in the Bible alone.

Catholics, on the other hand, understand the Church also in terms of a hierarchical structure, with definite authority given to it by Jesus in the person of Peter and therefore to his successors. We see in Scripture much evidence that Jesus gave personal attention to the apostles, preparing them to minister after he was no longer with them. “Anyone who listens to you listens to me; anyone who rejects you rejects me, and those who reject me reject the one who sent me” (Lk 10:16). There was no reason for him to prepare them for only their lifetime. The early Church Fathers verify this. The early Church does not fall into the Protestant vision of a structure-less, sacrament-less body of believers. It was hierarchically structured and sacramental. The canon of the New Testament, on which Protestants base all their faith, is the product of this Church.

Truly, there is no hierarchy in the Body of Christ. That said, God does bless people with certain giftings concerning leadership---the fivefold ministry:

Ephesians 4:11-13
Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.


Is there a hierarchy? Not really, as every leader is a servant-leader. We are all equally servants of the Lord Jesus Christ, and so we are equally sharers in His life and equally servants in the Body of Christ.

[neophyte]

Lively Stone, in refuting your interpretation of Eph. 4:11  I give you this - the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.

[neophyte]

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean "invisible" unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.

Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.

[Lively Stone]

Lively Stone, in refuting your interpretation of Eph. 4:11  I give you this - the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.

The Body of Christ is not hierarchical, as all giftings and offices are of the same value to God and to the Church. We are all co-workers together, and our leaders are servants. Knowing this prevents a person from holding certain individuals as of higher or lower rank, spiritually. We are all brothers and sisters and all working together shouldering the load of furthering the Kingdom.

ALL believers are given gifts by Holy Spirit which are to be used in the Church and in one's ministry...we all have a ministry, and thus we are ALL CHARGED with the ministry of building the Church! It is built up by people being added to it daily, not through membership to an earthly organization, but through SALVATION IN JESUS CHRIST.

Luke 22:24-27
Then they began to argue among themselves about who would be the greatest among them. 25 Jesus told them, “In this world the kings and great men lord it over their people, yet they are called ‘friends of the people.’ 26 But among you it will be different. Those who are the greatest among you should take the lowest rank, and the leader should be like a servant. 27 Who is more important, the one who sits at the table or the one who serves? The one who sits at the table, of course. But not here! For I am among you as one who serves.

Matthew 20:24-26
When the ten other disciples heard what James and John had asked, they were indignant. 25 But Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. 26 But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant,