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Lively Stone

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #70 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 13:34:57 »
Lively Stone, your interpretation is not the correct interpretation. In fact the way you interpret Holy Scripture is errant. There is only "One" Holy Spirit that has "One" Interpretation.Explain to me how you can say that your interpretation is the correct one when the Protestant Religion has over 30,000 different conflicting interpretations, prove to me that your interpretation is the Real Interpretation while all the remaining 29,999 are wrong?
The only correct Interpretation is the One Interpretation that Christ's Apostolic Church has being that not one Protestant church can trace it's religious lineage directly back to Jesus and His apostles, only one Church can do that and like I said , it is not your church , your church, rather you like it or not, was invented by a mere man or perhaps a mere woman and that is the unequivocal truth.

You are wrong.

The right interpretation has no bearing on what church affiliation one has, but with whom one walks. In my case, I walk with Jesus and His Spirit reveals the truth. There is no such thing as Purgatory and that passage in 1 Corinthians 3 is to the Bema Seat where rewards are meted out to the righteous.

Following the dogma of a RELIGION is not recommended. Follow Jesus Christ, and learn directly from Him through the careful and prayerful reading and study of His word. He will show you. Count on it.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #70 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 13:34:57 »

Offline grams

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #71 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 16:07:10 »
neophyte  says,


Hi grams, you do realize that nothing unclean gets into heaven Rev.21:27 don't you ? Once this process of purging/purification is complete , the soul enters into God's presence, the beatific vision, in which the perfect bliss of beholding God face - to - face lasts forever.
Why would God want you to just reveal the sins you've committed only to Him, He already knows your sins. God wants you to tell His earthly "ordained" priests ,just as Jesus would forgive sins because He was and still is the High Priest. Jesus gave His authority and power to His first priests , the following verses will explain confession.[ 2 Cor.5:20 ] priests are to act as ambassadors.
Catholic priests were given the power and authority to forgive sins ,[ John 20:23 ]
The bible tells us that it is better for us to confess our sins [ Proverbs 28:13 ]
From Jesus to His priests goes the message of : " For what I have pardoned .... I have done it in the person of Christ ".

" Every high priest taken from among men ......... , that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins " { Hebrews 5:1 ]




Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


Rom 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You either go to heaven or hell !
My sins are all forgiven........ So I know were I am going.
Jesus is in God and God is in Jesus.   
I am in Jesus and Jesus is in me !   

Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13  Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Also  please know that things are now different then they were back then...

2 Tim 2:15  Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

There is a time past - - - - -   But Now - - - - - and time to come.................

As in these days we are all now Gentiles.     We were dog's  , but not any more ! 

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #71 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 16:07:10 »

Offline neophyte

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #72 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 17:42:44 »
gramps, none of what you write is about refuting Purgatory, Purgatory exists ,it is explained in the Holy Bible and was always believed by those early Christians that walked and talked with Jesus , unfortunately you have always been instructed to not read their writings, not everyhing is explained in the bible as the bible tells us in [John 29; 30]. and [ 2 Thess. 2:15 ]

Offline .:Lily:.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #73 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 18:09:27 »
gramps, none of what you write is about refuting Purgatory, Purgatory exists ,it is explained in the Holy Bible and was always believed by those early Christians that walked and talked with Jesus , unfortunately you have always been instructed to not read their writings, not everyhing is explained in the bible as the bible tells us in [John 29; 30]. and [ 2 Thess. 2:15 ]

neophyte,

Lord Jesus will save you from this hell if you accepted him as your lord and savior because he died for your sins. Trust him.

If Purgatory exists then why Jesus died for our sins? And why he said it is finished? I believe when lord Jesus said it is finished he really meant it.

Hebrews 7:25:
Therefore, because he always lives to intercede for them, he is able to save completely those who come to God through him.



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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #73 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 18:09:27 »

Offline .:Lily:.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #74 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 18:15:26 »
Quote
not everyhing is explained in the bible as the bible tells us

but do not add to it, please.......  ::frown::

Proverbs 30:6:
Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #74 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 18:15:26 »



Offline chosenone

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #75 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 18:26:18 »
This place is a man made fabrication and has no truth. When we die we are either saved or we arent there is no 'further refining'.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #76 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 18:27:30 »
This place is a man made fabrication and has no truth. When we die we are either saved or we arent there is no 'further refining'.

Yes, because the word says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Lively Stone

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #77 on: Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 19:56:44 »
gramps, none of what you write is about refuting Purgatory, Purgatory exists ,it is explained in the Holy Bible and was always believed by those early Christians that walked and talked with Jesus , unfortunately you have always been instructed to not read their writings, not everyhing is explained in the bible as the bible tells us in [John 29; 30]. and [ 2 Thess. 2:15 ]

Purgatory is not explained in the bible---anywhere. It is a construct of the religious who do not believe in the efficacy of the blood of Jesus to cleanse us of all our sins once and for all. Unbelief leads to all sorts of false doctrines and 'isms'.

Offline neophyte

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #78 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 08:41:08 »
Lively Stone, I gave you ample biblical backing for Purgatory, but the problem is, you really don’t want to know, do you?  You prefer ignorance and falsehood to knowledge and truth.

So, Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “TODAY thou shalt be with me in Paradise,” and you apparently interpret Paradise as being Heaven and TODAY as being the end of that 24–hour calendar day they were in, right?  Well then, let me ask you a question, how do you reconcile that statement of Jesus on the cross with His statement to Mary Magdalene two days later when He tells her that He has not yet ascended to the Father?  In other words, how could the thief on the cross be with Jesus in Paradise “TODAY,” when two days later Jesus still hadn’t made it to Paradise? Try to be at least honest with yourself.


Lively Stone

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #79 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 09:44:28 »
Lively Stone, I gave you ample biblical backing for Purgatory, but the problem is, you really don’t want to know, do you?  You prefer ignorance and falsehood to knowledge and truth.

There is no scriptural support for the belief of Purgatory. What is used is re-interpreted to fit the agenda of the Catholic religion, which preys on the ignorance and fears of its followers in the creation of such a diabolical, anti-faith and anti-Christ doctrine.

Quote
So, Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “TODAY thou shalt be with me in Paradise,” and you apparently interpret Paradise as being Heaven and TODAY as being the end of that 24–hour calendar day they were in, right?  Well then, let me ask you a question, how do you reconcile that statement of Jesus on the cross with His statement to Mary Magdalene two days later when He tells her that He has not yet ascended to the Father?  In other words, how could the thief on the cross be with Jesus in Paradise “TODAY,” when two days later Jesus still hadn’t made it to Paradise? Try to be at least honest with yourself.

Paradise was not heaven. It was the place referred to as Hades, or Abraham's Bosom, where the righteous dead awaited their Messiah. Jesus was indeed speaking of that very day of their deaths. He was not waxing eloquent on the cross. It was far to crucial and eternally important to be ambiguous. the criminal (he was not ever mentioned as a thief) was indeed with Jesus that very day, as they died together.

When Jesus said He had not yet ascended to the Father, He was telling the truth.

From the time He went to set free those captives, the way to heaven has been made for us all, so that upon the death of a believer, one immediately enters heaven, as Paul says:

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.


Be confident! Don't be guilty of unbelief and the lack of faith in the sufficiency of the blood of Jesus!

Offline Ladonia

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #80 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 11:29:39 »
Red Baker, the word Purgatory is nowhere in the Bible.  But, the word “Trinity” is nowhere in the Bible, either, yet you believe in the Trinity don’t you?  Sorry, but there is evidence of Purgatory in the Bible, even if it is not mentioned by name.  Here’s a quick biblical question about Purgatory that you will not be able to answer: In 1 Cor 3:10–15, it talks about how every man’s work will be made manifest on “the day” – their judgment day – and that every man’s work will be tested by fire.  And that there will be some who have works that will be burned up, and they will suffer loss, as through fire, yet still be saved.  So, Red Baker, where is it that, after a man dies, and his works are judged, that he can suffer loss as through fire, yet still be saved?  Hell?  Nope.  One suffers loss as through fire in Hell, but we both know that no one gets out of Hell.  Heaven?  Nope.  Someone who is in Heaven is indeed saved, but we both know no one suffers loss in Heaven.  So, where is it that after one dies, one could suffer loss as through fire, yet still be saved?



It's hard to argue with people who continue to mis-interpret the Scriptures. This is what the modernist, rejectionist Christian does. One can only pray for them. Purgatory? What a ridiculous idea. The "Real Presence" of Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist as preached from the beginning? What a completely far fetched thought without any validity. Come, come my friend, it's time to moderize your theological thinking!  rofl
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 11:37:31 by Ladonia »

Offline .:Lily:.

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #81 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 14:09:06 »

Quote
Here’s a quick biblical question about Purgatory that you will not be able to answer: In 1 Cor 3:10–15, it talks about how every man’s work will be made manifest on “the day” – their judgment day – and that every man’s work will be tested by fire.  And that there will be some who have works that will be burned up, and they will suffer loss, as through fire, yet still be saved

If a fire can purify you (and it does not say in the verse you mentioned), then, tell me why the blood of Jesus can’t?  ::shrug::
 
“The blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.” - 1 John 1:7

Hebrews 7:25:
Therefore, because he always lives to intercede for them, he is able to save completely those who come to God through him.

Offline neophyte

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #82 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 14:48:44 »
1 Cor. 3: 10-15 is about test by fire , you are so wrong.
also, you had better re-read verse 1 John 1;7
1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. But we need continual cleansing, and can walk out of the light.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, Jesus will forgive them and cleanse us. But we need continual cleansing. Growing in holiness is a lifelong process.


Offline chosenone

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #83 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 15:35:07 »
1 Cor. 3: 10-15 is about test by fire , you are so wrong.
also, you had better re-read verse 1 John 1;7
1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. But we need continual cleansing, and can walk out of the light.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, Jesus will forgive them and cleanse us. But we need continual cleansing. Growing in holiness is a lifelong process.


 

We are righteous right now, because of the blood of Jesus, and if we die tomorrow we will be with Him immediatly. There is no place that we have to go first,  that is a purely man made doctrine. Jesus said to the thief on the cross, TODAY you will be with me in paradise. This was a man who had only just come to know Jesus as he died.

Offline neophyte

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #84 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 15:59:16 »
 Was you there ? Do you know the rest of the story? Are you trying to place limits on God's power and authority ? .

Offline neophyte

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #85 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 16:13:07 »
They went to hell if unrighteous (the Catechism of the Catholic Church, following the historic Christian interpretation, cites the rich man as an example of one who has died in mortal sin [CCC 1859]) or to Abraham's bosom if righteous (today the state of the righteous dead is even more glorious since the gates of heaven have been opened and the righteous, after purification if needed, now go to be with God (CCC 1026).

Note that some argue this isn't a parable at all but a historical account. Nothing in the text says it is a parable, and it is different from other parables in that Jesus names one of the characters--Lazarus. If it is a parable, it is the only parable where that happens.

A few last points. When the rich man suggests Lazarus be sent back from the dead, Abraham does not say that he won't go back, but that if he does go back those who will not hear the Law and the prophets will not take heed of Lazarus's rising either. In John's Gospel we read that Jesus has a friend named Lazarus who dies and comes back from the dead (Jn 11), and when he does so those who do not listen to God's word do not heed his raising either (Jn 11:45-53); they even plan to kill Lazarus because of the evidence his raising provides for Jesus' messianic claims (Jn 12:9-11)!

Answered by: Catholic Answers Staff .

Offline neophyte

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #86 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 16:21:58 »
Let me ask you a question, how do you reconcile that statement of Jesus on the cross with His statement to Mary Magdalene two days later when He tells her that He has not yet ascended to the Father?  In other words, how could the thief on the cross be with Jesus in Paradise “TODAY,” when two days later Jesus still hadn’t made it to Paradise?

Offline Grappler

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #87 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 17:29:51 »
Let me ask you a question, how do you reconcile that statement of Jesus on the cross with His statement to Mary Magdalene two days later when He tells her that He has not yet ascended to the Father?  In other words, how could the thief on the cross be with Jesus in Paradise “TODAY,” when two days later Jesus still hadn’t made it to Paradise?
  Oh thats easy!  He didn't tell the thief on the cross that they would be in Paradise that very day.  "Verily I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise." Exactly, the moving of the comma changes both the structure and the meaning of the sentence.  Just move the misplaced comma that the KJV guys did and presto! problem taken care of...remember the original Greek had no commas.  Hope this could help you out. ::tippinghat::

Offline Grappler

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #88 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 17:32:27 »
Purgatory 

I am no longer a Catholic !

I do not want to pick a fight !   With any one.

I just do not understand purgatory.

I now use the  KJB  and do not see it any were .

And for what my bible tells me , my sins are all forgiven , by the shed blood of

Jesus Christ.    He had no sin of his own, but went to the cross to pay for those

who will have faith and believe. 

So you go straight to  heaven or the other place,

According  to my bible   if you believe that    [ "purgatory " ] then ,  Christ died in      VAIN
Way to go gram!!!!   Purgatory is unbiblical nonsense. ::noworries::

Offline neophyte

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #89 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 17:49:54 »
Hey Grappler you wrote: " ...remember the original Greek had no commas.  Hope this could help you out."
The problem is,is that Jesus was speaking "Aramaic ".  Better stick with your wresling.

Offline Grappler

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #90 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 17:58:34 »
Hey Grappler you wrote: " ...remember the original Greek had no commas.  Hope this could help you out."
The problem is,is that Jesus was speaking "Aramaic ".  Better stick with your wresling.
HEY Neo...you don't know much about the bible do you?  Your lack of knowledge is amazing! ::giggle::  "The new writings, composed primarily of the Gospels and the Epistles, were distributed widely in the Greek language. It seems fairly certain that the Gospels of Luke and John, the Book of Acts, the Epistles, and the Book of Revelation were originally written in Greek."  That was a quote from Dr. Thomas McCall an expert in New Testament history. Now Neo do yourself a favor and go study the history of the New Testament. ::tippinghat::

Offline neophyte

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #91 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 18:20:19 »
Now again Grappler you find yourself again all twisted up in the ropes. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect.Not in Attic Greek as your Protestant translators have erroneously translated.

Offline Grappler

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #92 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 18:26:21 »
Now again Grappler you find yourself again all twisted up in the ropes. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect.Not in Attic Greek as your Protestant translators have erroneously translated.
Now again Neo you prove your ignorance...bravo! ::smile::  I never said anything about Attic Greek or Koine Greek you did.  I gave you a simple easy to understand explaination of Luke 23 and you choose to ignore it.... this is too much fun! ::disco::

Offline neophyte

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #93 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 19:48:28 »
 Of course you never mentioned anything about Koine or Attic Greek, you as most Protestants haven't a clue about how to properly translate the early languages , especially "Aramaic " the cousin language of Hebrew. I think you're one of those guys that really believe that the completed Bible fell from a cloud in the sky. You probably never kicked in your intellect part of your brain and asked yourself; "I wonder where in the Bible would I find an inspired and inerrant/infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible." Who do you think gave us that Table of Contents? When there never was ever a list of Holy Canonical Books anyplace indicating which books out of the maze of books, letters, etc. back at that time being eligible to be entered into our Bibles?Please tell me who gave us the Bible's List of Canon? And I'm sure your intelligent enough to figure out that who ever was responsible for the Canon of Scriptural Holy Books understood the "One" and "Only" Interpretation. Wouldn't you think? If the meaning of the Bible is so clear, so easily interpreted, and if the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it rightly , then why are there over 30,000 Protestant denon and non-denominations, and millions of individual Protestants all interpreting the Holy Bible differently?

Offline Grappler

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #94 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 20:24:26 »
Of course you never mentioned anything about Koine or Attic Greek, you as most Protestants haven't a clue about how to properly translate the early languages , especially "Aramaic " the cousin language of Hebrew. I think you're one of those guys that really believe that the completed Bible fell from a cloud in the sky. You probably never kicked in your intellect part of your brain and asked yourself; "I wonder where in the Bible would I find an inspired and inerrant/infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible." Who do you think gave us that Table of Contents? When there never was ever a list of Holy Canonical Books anyplace indicating which books out of the maze of books, letters, etc. back at that time being eligible to be entered into our Bibles?Please tell me who gave us the Bible's List of Canon? And I'm sure your intelligent enough to figure out that who ever was responsible for the Canon of Scriptural Holy Books understood the "One" and "Only" Interpretation. Wouldn't you think? If the meaning of the Bible is so clear, so easily interpreted, and if the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it rightly , then why are there over 30,000 Protestant denon and non-denominations, and millions of individual Protestants all interpreting the Holy Bible differently?
  Bla bla bla your pride makes your IQ even lower.  I am not a Protestant...you silly Catholic. ::giggle:: I am child of God.  Do you know what that is? No. probably not.  I guess you think your silly organization is the only way that one can have a proper understanding of scripture don't you?  Pathetic.  I guess you think that your organization gave us the canon don't you?  Your organization is so far from the original that it would be unrecognizable to those men...those original Catholics would probably have more in common with alot of Protestants today.  I give you an answer to your silly little question about the theif on the cross and because you don't like it you start insulting me ::frown:: shame on you.  As far as all these different Protestant denons as you say i think you should go ask them why there are so many.  You seem to have alot of hate Neo...you probably would fit in good with the Inquisition days. ::giggle::  So Neo back to the topic do you believe in this unscriptural teaching of purgatory?

Offline neophyte

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #95 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 20:52:24 »
 I'm excusing you Grappler, looks like you've taken one too many bad head falls onto the canvas, it's time to throw the towel in. Give it up , you're a Protestant because you protest against Christ's Church, you deny that Jesus even left us a church ,don't you ? Even when He tells us that He left us His church . Jesus said " my church " in Matt.16; 15-19, but not Grappler, he says: I'm God's child and I don't need my Father's Church ". Good Luck. You need the correct Holy Spirit to guide you.

Offline Grappler

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #96 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 21:57:28 »
 
I'm excusing you Grappler, looks like you've taken one too many bad head falls onto the canvas, it's time to throw the towel in. Give it up , you're a Protestant because you protest against Christ's Church, you deny that Jesus even left us a church ,don't you ? Even when He tells us that He left us His church . Jesus said " my church " in Matt.16; 15-19, but not Grappler, he says: I'm God's child and I don't need my Father's Church ". Good Luck. You need the correct Holy Spirit to guide you.
Your words hurt  ::cryingtears::.  Ahhh but that is the question isn't it Neo??  Just what did Jesus mean when he said "church"?  You claim that he is refering to the organization called the RCC...actually he is not.  I know that because that organization has been so paganized over the centuries that the early apostles would have called it what it is...i will be nice and not do that. ::smile::  The "church" that Jesus refered to is all those who believe in him as the Son of God...those who have the Holy Spirit...it transcends all denominations and may even include some individuals from your organization.  I will gone for a few days so i hope you won't miss me too bad. ::tippinghat::

Lively Stone

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #97 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 23:40:03 »
1 Cor. 3: 10-15 is about test by fire , you are so wrong.
also, you had better re-read verse 1 John 1;7
1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. But we need continual cleansing, and can walk out of the light.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, Jesus will forgive them and cleanse us. But we need continual cleansing. Growing in holiness is a lifelong process.

Where is there any mention of Purgatory? This is Judgment---the Bema Seat judgment of Christ for BELIEVERS ONLY, where our works are scrutinized, and what remains is that done by pure motives, and what is done according to God's will (seeing as the many good things we do are not necessarily what God would be calling us to do. Rather it is our own sense of what is good) and that is what will gain us rewards and our positions in the New Earth. It has NOTHING to do with cleansing of sin. Our sins are blotted out when we come to Christ.

Yes, do read 1 John 1:7-9, which tells us that the blood of Jesus is CONTINUALLY cleansing us from sin. We are always being cleansed. There is no need for any purging of sin after our death. We go to Jesus, based on His precious promises. Anyone who believes that there is further confession or forgiveness required does not trust in the full and complete work of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His precious blood the blood of Jesus.

Hebrews 9:13-14
Under the old system, the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow could cleanse people’s bodies from ceremonial impurity. Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins.


Jesus was THE PERFECT SACRIFICE! It is a slap in the face of God to preach that there is something else we must do for salvation.

Lively Stone

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #98 on: Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 23:43:41 »
Let me ask you a question, how do you reconcile that statement of Jesus on the cross with His statement to Mary Magdalene two days later when He tells her that He has not yet ascended to the Father?  In other words, how could the thief on the cross be with Jesus in Paradise “TODAY,” when two days later Jesus still hadn’t made it to Paradise?

I am surprised that you would ask this question again after it was already fully answered earlier in the thread.

Paradise was not Heaven. Jesus went to paradise, but He had not ascended to heaven. Do you think He lied or something? We do have to reason, don't we?
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 00:36:10 by Lively Stone »

Offline neophyte

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #99 on: Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 06:40:15 »
 We should understand that it is not our place to judge the necessity of purgation for any individual, including Dismas [ the name of the thief on the cross with Jesus ] . Such judgment belongs to Jesus alone (see John 5:22-30), and it could be that Dismas died in a state of perfect holiness bound straight for heaven. If such is the case, purgatory is irrelevant.

But what if he did need purgation (as it seems reasonable that a criminal dying on a cross might)? The first challenge that arises is that Jesus told Dismas that he would be in heaven today, leaving no time for purgation.

Actually, we’re not sure Jesus’ words indicated that Dismas would be in heaven that day. The Greek manuscripts containing Jesus’ words do not contain punctuation, so it is not certain where commas should be placed. Consider this possibility: “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.” Placing the comma after “today” shifts that word’s association from when Dismas would be in paradise to when Jesus is saying his words.

Another point to consider is that “paradise” does not mean “heaven.” As stated above, the term refers to the abode of the blessed dead, but that wasn’t quite heaven yet, since Jesus had not opened its gates. Peter tells us that, after his death, Jesus “went and preached to the spirits in prison” (1 Pet. 3:19). The Catechism explains: “In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him” (CCC 637).

So, Jesus went to the abode of the blessed to share the gospel with them and to open the gates of heaven for them. It is there that Jesus said he would be with Dismas that day. Thus, purgation could be done before Dismas entered into the beatific vision.

One final note that might be the strongest counter to this challenge to purgatory is that the Church does not have a teaching on the temporal duration of purgation; such cleansing might happen “in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor. 15:52). So, even if we were to concede that Jesus intended to indicate that Dismas would go to heaven that very day, purgatory is still a possibility.

Case dismissed

In the final analysis, it isn’t clear that the sacrament of baptism and its necessity had been instituted by Jesus before the Crucifixion. Even if it had been, we do not know for certain that Dismas hadn’t already been baptized. Whatever the case, he evidently underwent a conversion, so it seems that he would have had an implicit or explicit desire for baptism that would suffice if baptism was a necessity. And if purgatory is a necessary step on the way to heaven, the Church’s teaching allows room for that as well.
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Offline mclees8

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #100 on: Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 08:33:06 »
We should understand that it is not our place to judge the necessity of purgation for any individual, including Dismas [ the name of the thief on the cross with Jesus ] . Such judgment belongs to Jesus alone (see John 5:22-30), and it could be that Dismas died in a state of perfect holiness bound straight for heaven. If such is the case, purgatory is irrelevant.

But what if he did need purgation (as it seems reasonable that a criminal dying on a cross might)? The first challenge that arises is that Jesus told Dismas that he would be in heaven today, leaving no time for purgation.

Actually, we’re not sure Jesus’ words indicated that Dismas would be in heaven that day. The Greek manuscripts containing Jesus’ words do not contain punctuation, so it is not certain where commas should be placed. Consider this possibility: “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.” Placing the comma after “today” shifts that word’s association from when Dismas would be in paradise to when Jesus is saying his words.

Another point to consider is that “paradise” does not mean “heaven.” As stated above, the term refers to the abode of the blessed dead, but that wasn’t quite heaven yet, since Jesus had not opened its gates. Peter tells us that, after his death, Jesus “went and preached to the spirits in prison” (1 Pet. 3:19). The Catechism explains: “In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him” (CCC 637).

So, Jesus went to the abode of the blessed to share the gospel with them and to open the gates of heaven for them. It is there that Jesus said he would be with Dismas that day. Thus, purgation could be done before Dismas entered into the beatific vision.

One final note that might be the strongest counter to this challenge to purgatory is that the Church does not have a teaching on the temporal duration of purgation; such cleansing might happen “in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor. 15:52). So, even if we were to concede that Jesus intended to indicate that Dismas would go to heaven that very day, purgatory is still a possibility.

Case dismissed

In the final analysis, it isn’t clear that the sacrament of baptism and its necessity had been instituted by Jesus before the Crucifixion. Even if it had been, we do not know for certain that Dismas hadn’t already been baptized. Whatever the case, he evidently underwent a conversion, so it seems that he would have had an implicit or explicit desire for baptism that would suffice if baptism was a necessity. And if purgatory is a necessary step on the way to heaven, the Church’s teaching allows room for that as well.
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Catholic answers is clearly wrong. You forget what grace is and the grace we recieved from God the Father when he let his Son be our total and complete sacrifice for our sins for now and forever. Grace means all charges are dropped. they are forgiven. No further punishment.
Catholics are hung up on punishment and punishment is the law. Your catholicism keeps the law over you. They say you must do penitence that puts Gods grace to an open shame. To further this Penitence is still not enoubh you must be punished even some more in purgatory so you believe  this is further cleansing for you sins. Again you put Gods grace to open shame for the blood of Jesus washes us for all time.

Dear catholic the law was a teacher for us that by it no man can keep the LAW. By this very same token no man can live up to Christ. No not even one who is spirit filled. Just as paul said.

 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.   . Ga 2:19-21



 
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 08:43:12 by mclees8 »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #101 on: Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 08:42:21 »
We should understand that it is not our place to judge the necessity of purgation for any individual, including Dismas [ the name of the thief on the cross with Jesus ] . Such judgment belongs to Jesus alone (see John 5:22-30), and it could be that Dismas died in a state of perfect holiness bound straight for heaven. If such is the case, purgatory is irrelevant.

But what if he did need purgation (as it seems reasonable that a criminal dying on a cross might)? The first challenge that arises is that Jesus told Dismas that he would be in heaven today, leaving no time for purgation.

Actually, we’re not sure Jesus’ words indicated that Dismas would be in heaven that day. The Greek manuscripts containing Jesus’ words do not contain punctuation, so it is not certain where commas should be placed. Consider this possibility: “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.” Placing the comma after “today” shifts that word’s association from when Dismas would be in paradise to when Jesus is saying his words.

Another point to consider is that “paradise” does not mean “heaven.” As stated above, the term refers to the abode of the blessed dead, but that wasn’t quite heaven yet, since Jesus had not opened its gates. Peter tells us that, after his death, Jesus “went and preached to the spirits in prison” (1 Pet. 3:19). The Catechism explains: “In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him” (CCC 637).

So, Jesus went to the abode of the blessed to share the gospel with them and to open the gates of heaven for them. It is there that Jesus said he would be with Dismas that day. Thus, purgation could be done before Dismas entered into the beatific vision.

One final note that might be the strongest counter to this challenge to purgatory is that the Church does not have a teaching on the temporal duration of purgation; such cleansing might happen “in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor. 15:52). So, even if we were to concede that Jesus intended to indicate that Dismas would go to heaven that very day, purgatory is still a possibility.

Case dismissed

In the final analysis, it isn’t clear that the sacrament of baptism and its necessity had been instituted by Jesus before the Crucifixion. Even if it had been, we do not know for certain that Dismas hadn’t already been baptized. Whatever the case, he evidently underwent a conversion, so it seems that he would have had an implicit or explicit desire for baptism that would suffice if baptism was a necessity. And if purgatory is a necessary step on the way to heaven, the Church’s teaching allows room for that as well.
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There could be a purgation, there could be being sent straight to heaven and there could be hell for anyone of us. No matter what we believe, in the end I think it will be all God's call. He gets to decide, not us.

Offline mclees8

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #102 on: Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 08:56:29 »
We should understand that it is not our place to judge the necessity of purgation for any individual, including Dismas [ the name of the thief on the cross with Jesus ] . Such judgment belongs to Jesus alone (see John 5:22-30), and it could be that Dismas died in a state of perfect holiness bound straight for heaven. If such is the case, purgatory is irrelevant.

But what if he did need purgation (as it seems reasonable that a criminal dying on a cross might)? The first challenge that arises is that Jesus told Dismas that he would be in heaven today, leaving no time for purgation.

Actually, we’re not sure Jesus’ words indicated that Dismas would be in heaven that day. The Greek manuscripts containing Jesus’ words do not contain punctuation, so it is not certain where commas should be placed. Consider this possibility: “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.” Placing the comma after “today” shifts that word’s association from when Dismas would be in paradise to when Jesus is saying his words.

Another point to consider is that “paradise” does not mean “heaven.” As stated above, the term refers to the abode of the blessed dead, but that wasn’t quite heaven yet, since Jesus had not opened its gates. Peter tells us that, after his death, Jesus “went and preached to the spirits in prison” (1 Pet. 3:19). The Catechism explains: “In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him” (CCC 637).

So, Jesus went to the abode of the blessed to share the gospel with them and to open the gates of heaven for them. It is there that Jesus said he would be with Dismas that day. Thus, purgation could be done before Dismas entered into the beatific vision.

One final note that might be the strongest counter to this challenge to purgatory is that the Church does not have a teaching on the temporal duration of purgation; such cleansing might happen “in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor. 15:52). So, even if we were to concede that Jesus intended to indicate that Dismas would go to heaven that very day, purgatory is still a possibility.

Case dismissed

In the final analysis, it isn’t clear that the sacrament of baptism and its necessity had been instituted by Jesus before the Crucifixion. Even if it had been, we do not know for certain that Dismas hadn’t already been baptized. Whatever the case, he evidently underwent a conversion, so it seems that he would have had an implicit or explicit desire for baptism that would suffice if baptism was a necessity. And if purgatory is a necessary step on the way to heaven, the Church’s teaching allows room for that as well.
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There could be a purgation, there could be being sent straight to heaven and there could be hell for anyone of us. No matter what we believe, in the end I think it will be all God's call. He gets to decide, not us.

Why do you doubt. Is not Gods word plain enough. There can be no place for purgation under Gods loving grace. Do you not know that by it Satan is defeated. Is not satan the accuser of the brethren who charges us day and night.

Read Zecharia 3
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satana standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. 5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments.  . Zec 3:1-5

Is this grace not complete
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 08:58:54 by mclees8 »

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #103 on: Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 11:43:49 »
We should understand that it is not our place to judge the necessity of purgation for any individual, including Dismas [ the name of the thief on the cross with Jesus ] .

By what authority do you give the criminal a name? By what authority do you claim his crime was theft?


Lively Stone

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Re: PURGATORY
« Reply #104 on: Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 12:07:32 »
But what if he did need purgation (as it seems reasonable that a criminal dying on a cross might)?

Why does a person who is forgiven of ALL SIN need purgation?

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Actually, we’re not sure Jesus’ words indicated that Dismas would be in heaven that day.


Of course you are not sure of that. He never said it.

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So, Jesus went to the abode of the blessed to share the gospel with them and to open the gates of heaven for them. It is there that Jesus said he would be with Dismas that day. Thus, purgation could be done before Dismas entered into the beatific vision.

Yes, he would be with Jesus in Paradise. Yes, all cleansing of sin occurred when he first believed, while he was still being crucified.

When he died, he went where Jesus went. It wasn't any old "vision", either. It was a real place.

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One final note that might be the strongest counter to this challenge to purgatory is that the Church does not have a teaching on the temporal duration of purgation;

The BIBLE has NO TEACHING on purgatory whatsoever. So...the so-called CHURCH is brazenly concocting something out of thin air.

Quote
such cleansing might happen “in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor. 15:52). So, even if we were to concede that Jesus intended to indicate that Dismas would go to heaven that very day, purgatory is still a possibility.

The event described in 1 Corinthians 15:52 has NOTHING to do with CLEANSING. Purgatory is still in the realm of fantasy. Not possible according to God's word! Now...case dismissed.

Hebrews 2:3a
For we who have believed enter that rest,

Quote
In the final analysis, it isn’t clear that the sacrament of baptism and its necessity had been instituted by Jesus before the Crucifixion. Even if it had been, we do not know for certain that Dismas hadn’t already been baptized.

It makes no difference if he was or wasn't. What matters is his heart and what he believed there---what he believed was uttered in words, and what is spoken in faith becomes reality: universal principle!

John 3:15-18
15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.

16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.

Quote
Whatever the case, he evidently underwent a conversion, so it seems that he would have had an implicit or explicit desire for baptism that would suffice if baptism was a necessity. And if purgatory is a necessary step on the way to heaven, the Church’s teaching allows room for that as well.
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The "Church's" teaching means nothing if it runs contrary to God's word. The problem with the RCC is that it thinks that it is the arbiter of all things truthful. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Body of Christ---all believers---are the Church. There is no such thing as a central organizational body that can call itself the Church. Catholicism has gotten way out of hand in that regard.

The true Church, the living, breathing Body of Christ knows the truth and is busy living it and teaching it faithfully.

 

     
anything