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What is the most basic Roman Catholic belief ?
(Author : Paulus)
« Thu Feb 24, 2011 - 13:15:40 »
Note I have not used the word Magisterium .My use of the word yesterday led to false accusations as the threads progressed .
I am seeking to find the way Roman Catholics express their beliefs in their own day to day language .
There is nothing to be wary of in this . I am not trying to catch anyone out . Answers may differ . No problem . We are all in the process of learning .
Some on Catholic Forum have seriously doubted that I am a Roman Catholic .
Feel free to ask me any question that will clarify this . However allow me to use my own words . They may not be the ones you would use , but the belief underlying them will be the same .
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Reply #1 by Paulus
I don't find it at all disorganised .
I wish I had the creativity to express myself in such a way .
Well done .
You have told us what for you is the most important thing for Roman Catholics to do , but in this thread I am asking what is the most basic Roman Catholic belief .
« Thu Feb 24, 2011 - 13:50:17 »
Oh ok I'll go in first.
The most important thing for a Roman Catholic to do IMHO is two fold. Through love and discipline we reflect the light of the Sun as bright as we can. Secondly we grow as close to a better relationship with the Infinity of the Sun as we can.
Now before I get attacked for pagan sun worship, let me explain.
I view the world as a realm casted in the shadow of night. I view the Church as the heavenly bodies. The Moon is the Magesterium. It directly reflects the light of the Sun. The Stars are us the foot soldiers of God's Kingdom. Although this is not astronomically correct, I feel that the Moon directs the Light of the Sun on us and together we all pour the light of the sun on the world to overcome the darkness.
The Sun is God and the Light is His Truth. The Moon is taught burn brightly and teaches us how to burn brightly and together as one Family we spread the Truth on to the world.
The charge of each individual star(Roman Catholic) is to take in the life of God and reflect His image and nature on the world as best they can and as faithfully as they can as our forefathers martyred and persecuted did before us.
Sorry if that was disorganized.
I don't find it at all disorganised .
I wish I had the creativity to express myself in such a way .
Well done .
You have told us what for you is the most important thing for Roman Catholics to do , but in this thread I am asking what is the most basic Roman Catholic belief .
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Reply #2 by LightHammer
« Thu Feb 24, 2011 - 14:23:34 »
Yea I kind of realized that I had clicked the wrong thread after I had I already posted the response.lol Sorry about. I'll move it when I get to my computer.
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Reply #3 by Catholica
« Thu Feb 24, 2011 - 14:47:09 »
The most basic Roman Catholic belief is in the resurrection of Jesus Christ who is God, the second person of the blessed Trinity.
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Reply #4 by Paulus
I like the answer . St Paul said something like that without Christ's resurrection we would be the most miserable of humans .
But it's not the answer I would give , true as it is for you .
Note I am not denying the truth what you said .
« Thu Feb 24, 2011 - 15:01:11 »
The most basic Roman Catholic belief is in the resurrection of Jesus Christ who is God, the second person of the blessed Trinity.
I like the answer . St Paul said something like that without Christ's resurrection we would be the most miserable of humans .
But it's not the answer I would give , true as it is for you .
Note I am not denying the truth what you said .
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Reply #5 by Paulus
To settle any doubts I wish someone would respond to this suggestion .
« Thu Feb 24, 2011 - 15:04:24 »
Some on Catholic Forum have seriously doubted that I am a Roman Catholic .
Feel free to ask me any question that will clarify this . However allow me to use my own words . They may not be the ones you would use , but the belief underlying them will be the same .
To settle any doubts I wish someone would respond to this suggestion .
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Reply #6 by Paulus
Leave it it's no big problem .
« Thu Feb 24, 2011 - 15:06:41 »
Yea I kind of realized that I had clicked the wrong thread after I had I already posted the response.lol Sorry about. I'll move it when I get to my computer.
Leave it it's no big problem .
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Reply #7 by Catholica
« Thu Feb 24, 2011 - 17:33:14 »
I would say that Christ's resurrection is pretty foundational. I wasn't aware that there is a correct answer. Catholicism is so large that it is hard to say what the most basic belief is. I guess it depends on what you mean by basic? There are many simple beliefs. There is one central source and summit. But I would argue that the foundational and most important belief is in the resurrection.
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Reply #8 by chestertonrules
I like this, from the prologue to the catechism:
"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS.
« Thu Feb 24, 2011 - 23:17:31 »
Note I have not used the word Magisterium .
My use of the word yesterday led to false accusations as the threads progressed .
I am seeking to find the way Roman Catholics express their beliefs in their own day to day language .
There is nothing to be wary of in this . I am not trying to catch anyone out . Answers may differ . No problem . We are all in the process of learning .
Some on Catholic Forum have seriously doubted that I am a Roman Catholic .
Feel free to ask me any question that will clarify this . However allow me to use my own words . They may not be the ones you would use , but the belief underlying them will be the same .
I like this, from the prologue to the catechism:
"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS.
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Reply #9 by Paulus
In a way all the answers given are correct , but I believe there is one belief without which all else would be baseless .
Perhaps I am teasing a bit , but I think it helps people to think and give expression to enriching thoughts .
« Fri Feb 25, 2011 - 12:21:47 »
I would say that Christ's resurrection is pretty foundational. I wasn't aware that there is a correct answer. Catholicism is so large that it is hard to say what the most basic belief is. I guess it depends on what you mean by basic? There are many simple beliefs. There is one central source and summit. But I would argue that the foundational and most important belief is in the resurrection.
In a way all the answers given are correct , but I believe there is one belief without which all else would be baseless .
Perhaps I am teasing a bit , but I think it helps people to think and give expression to enriching thoughts .
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Reply #10 by Paulus
A most encouraging thought . It tells me that God is on the side of humankind and to just trust in him .
« Fri Feb 25, 2011 - 12:26:16 »
Note I have not used the word Magisterium .
My use of the word yesterday led to false accusations as the threads progressed .
I am seeking to find the way Roman Catholics express their beliefs in their own day to day language .
There is nothing to be wary of in this . I am not trying to catch anyone out . Answers may differ . No problem . We are all in the process of learning .
Some on Catholic Forum have seriously doubted that I am a Roman Catholic .
Feel free to ask me any question that will clarify this . However allow me to use my own words . They may not be the ones you would use , but the belief underlying them will be the same .
I like this, from the prologue to the catechism:
"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS.
A most encouraging thought . It tells me that God is on the side of humankind and to just trust in him .
Logged
Reply #11 by mclees8
Listen I know you are talking to RC,s but how do you get this thought from above scripture. This states that only faith in Christ can save us. If all human kind would except this then the whole human race could be saved. How ever salvation is only extended to those who receive him by faith. so explain what you are thinking
God is on the side of those who except the sacrifice of his Son and by faith live for Him. How is this say he is on the side of Human kind when human kind is lost and most will never come to saving faith.
« Fri Feb 25, 2011 - 13:56:31 »
Note I have not used the word Magisterium .
My use of the word yesterday led to false accusations as the threads progressed .
I am seeking to find the way Roman Catholics express their beliefs in their own day to day language .
There is nothing to be wary of in this . I am not trying to catch anyone out . Answers may differ . No problem . We are all in the process of learning .
Some on Catholic Forum have seriously doubted that I am a Roman Catholic .
Feel free to ask me any question that will clarify this . However allow me to use my own words . They may not be the ones you would use , but the belief underlying them will be the same .
I like this, from the prologue to the catechism:
"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS.
A most encouraging thought . It tells me that God is on the side of humankind and to just trust in him .
Listen I know you are talking to RC,s but how do you get this thought from above scripture. This states that only faith in Christ can save us. If all human kind would except this then the whole human race could be saved. How ever salvation is only extended to those who receive him by faith. so explain what you are thinking
God is on the side of those who except the sacrifice of his Son and by faith live for Him. How is this say he is on the side of Human kind when human kind is lost and most will never come to saving faith.
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Reply #12 by Paulus
Sorry I am sticking to the rules for once . No debate , just fellowship for Catholic Christians .
« Fri Feb 25, 2011 - 14:16:44 »
Note I have not used the word Magisterium .
My use of the word yesterday led to false accusations as the threads progressed .
I am seeking to find the way Roman Catholics express their beliefs in their own day to day language .
There is nothing to be wary of in this . I am not trying to catch anyone out . Answers may differ . No problem . We are all in the process of learning .
Some on Catholic Forum have seriously doubted that I am a Roman Catholic .
Feel free to ask me any question that will clarify this . However allow me to use my own words . They may not be the ones you would use , but the belief underlying them will be the same .
I like this, from the prologue to the catechism:
"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS.
A most encouraging thought . It tells me that God is on the side of humankind and to just trust in him .
Listen I know you are talking to RC,s but how do you get this thought from above scripture. This states that only faith in Christ can save us. If all human kind would except this then the whole human race could be saved. How ever salvation is only extended to those who receive him by faith. so explain what you are thinking
God is on the side of those who except the sacrifice of his Son and by faith live for Him. How is this say he is on the side of Human kind when human kind is lost and most will never come to saving faith.
Sorry I am sticking to the rules for once . No debate , just fellowship for Catholic Christians .
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Reply #13 by Catholica
mclees8, here is the scripture that is referenced by the Catechism. All of these words are basically directly from scripture.
1. Jn 17:3.
2. 1 Tim 2:3-4.
3. Acts 4:12.
That's what some say, but I think the truth is not so clear. The Bible says that:
"In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him. (Acts 10:34a-35)
Also look up anything that has to do with judgment, and it never says that only those who call Jesus "Lord" will be saved. God can (and does) save even those who never knew him, who acted uprightly and feared him. But it is much better to come into the fullness of the truth so that we can be more easily guided into the narrow path, because it is constricted and not many find it, except through Jesus and the truth of the gospel.
« Fri Feb 25, 2011 - 14:40:31 »
Note I have not used the word Magisterium .
My use of the word yesterday led to false accusations as the threads progressed .
I am seeking to find the way Roman Catholics express their beliefs in their own day to day language .
There is nothing to be wary of in this . I am not trying to catch anyone out . Answers may differ . No problem . We are all in the process of learning .
Some on Catholic Forum have seriously doubted that I am a Roman Catholic .
Feel free to ask me any question that will clarify this . However allow me to use my own words . They may not be the ones you would use , but the belief underlying them will be the same .
I like this, from the prologue to the catechism:
"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS.
A most encouraging thought . It tells me that God is on the side of humankind and to just trust in him .
Listen I know you are talking to RC,s but how do you get this thought from above scripture. This states that only faith in Christ can save us. If all human kind would except this then the whole human race could be saved. How ever salvation is only extended to those who receive him by faith. so explain what you are thinking
mclees8, here is the scripture that is referenced by the Catechism. All of these words are basically directly from scripture.
1. Jn 17:3.
2. 1 Tim 2:3-4.
3. Acts 4:12.
God is on the side of those who except the sacrifice of his Son and by faith live for Him. How is this say he is on the side of Human kind when human kind is lost and most will never come to saving faith.
That's what some say, but I think the truth is not so clear. The Bible says that:
"In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him. (Acts 10:34a-35)
Also look up anything that has to do with judgment, and it never says that only those who call Jesus "Lord" will be saved. God can (and does) save even those who never knew him, who acted uprightly and feared him. But it is much better to come into the fullness of the truth so that we can be more easily guided into the narrow path, because it is constricted and not many find it, except through Jesus and the truth of the gospel.
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Reply #14 by mclees8
No sir What you say is against the tenants of our faith. You then deny the very scripture you have given from you own Catechism. Today there maybe those who want to believe in a broad road gospel. But Jesus was very clear When he said I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by me. You deny what he said " I am the gate to the sheep fold and anyone who tries to come in another way is a thief and a liar. You see its not just about being a good person its about believing in the one who suffered the cross for us. The very sacrifice of God.
For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whomsoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
The Lord said when the gospel is preached in all the world then the end shall come. All will have the opportunity to believe. There will be many good people but that is not salvation.
How is that you want to change the gospel for another. how is it that you would be a slap in the face for all those who were martyred for their witness of Christ and now you say they died for nothing.
« Fri Feb 25, 2011 - 21:20:30 »
Note I have not used the word Magisterium .
My use of the word yesterday led to false accusations as the threads progressed .
I am seeking to find the way Roman Catholics express their beliefs in their own day to day language .
There is nothing to be wary of in this . I am not trying to catch anyone out . Answers may differ . No problem . We are all in the process of learning .
Some on Catholic Forum have seriously doubted that I am a Roman Catholic .
Feel free to ask me any question that will clarify this . However allow me to use my own words . They may not be the ones you would use , but the belief underlying them will be the same .
I like this, from the prologue to the catechism:
"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS.
A most encouraging thought . It tells me that God is on the side of humankind and to just trust in him .
Listen I know you are talking to RC,s but how do you get this thought from above scripture. This states that only faith in Christ can save us. If all human kind would except this then the whole human race could be saved. How ever salvation is only extended to those who receive him by faith. so explain what you are thinking
mclees8, here is the scripture that is referenced by the Catechism. All of these words are basically directly from scripture.
1. Jn 17:3.
2. 1 Tim 2:3-4.
3. Acts 4:12.God is on the side of those who except the sacrifice of his Son and by faith live for Him. How is this say he is on the side of Human kind when human kind is lost and most will never come to saving faith.
That's what some say, but I think the truth is not so clear. The Bible says that:
"In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him. (Acts 10:34a-35)
Also look up anything that has to do with judgment, and it never says that only those who call Jesus "Lord" will be saved. God can (and does) save even those who never knew him, who acted uprightly and feared him. But it is much better to come into the fullness of the truth so that we can be more easily guided into the narrow path, because it is constricted and not many find it, except through Jesus and the truth of the gospel.
No sir What you say is against the tenants of our faith. You then deny the very scripture you have given from you own Catechism. Today there maybe those who want to believe in a broad road gospel. But Jesus was very clear When he said I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by me. You deny what he said " I am the gate to the sheep fold and anyone who tries to come in another way is a thief and a liar. You see its not just about being a good person its about believing in the one who suffered the cross for us. The very sacrifice of God.
For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whomsoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
The Lord said when the gospel is preached in all the world then the end shall come. All will have the opportunity to believe. There will be many good people but that is not salvation.
How is that you want to change the gospel for another. how is it that you would be a slap in the face for all those who were martyred for their witness of Christ and now you say they died for nothing.
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Reply #15 by sojourner
Blessings,
« Fri Feb 25, 2011 - 22:29:19 »
Quote
Quote:"Sorry I am sticking to the rules for once . No debate , just fellowship for Catholic Christians ."Please forgive me...if I'm out of line...but 'what rules'? Last time I checked...this was a discussion/debate forum....right? If all you wanted was 'fellowship for catholics'.....the place for THAT...is the 'catholic safe house'.....isn't that correct?
Blessings,
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Reply #16 by sojourner
Sigh.... Let's look at the entire context, shall we?
This man was apparently not even a proselyte to Judaism...but who HAD been exposed to it....and, within his 'light'....was an upright and sincere man, worshipping God as best he knew how.
(the entire story starts in verse 1...not in verse 34/35. The most that can be said....is that while Peter was being supernaturally prepared by God...to expand his vision to see that God intended to redeem Gentiles as well.....God was supernaturally preparing Cornelius....and arranging for him to hear....what? The 'GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST'.
In verse 5 & 6...Cornelius was plainly told that he was to send for Simon....and he would tell him what he MUST DO.
Immediately after the verse you quote...Peter carries on with THIS...
Now...was Cornelius....or ANY of his friends/neighbours....indwelt by the Holy Spirit prior to this moment? (rhetorical question...answer NO)
Was any of them justified...prior to Peter preaching the Gospel to them? Same answer.
WHILE Peter was preaching...when recounting the story to the church back in Jerusalem....Peter said that he had just BEGUN speaking....preaching THE GOSPEL....and the Holy Spirit fell on those present....as He had on the Disciples in the upper room on the day of Pentecost.
So....far from indicating that God saved/saves those who don't yet 'believe' in Jesus....what happened here is that God supernaturally brought about the chain of events to ENABLE these people to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.....BELIEVE on Him....RECEIVE the Holy Spirit....and thus enter the Kingdom of God.
What's important to note....is that this man....while apparently NOT a 'proselyte' to Judaism, might have been one of those who hung around in the outer courts of the synagogue....who had an interest in the things of God...as understood by the Jews.
So....he was a far cry from those....like, for instance, those Mother Theresa ministered to in India.....steeped in a pagan, godless religion....with many gods identified as demons by name.....he knew a fair bit about God....and worshipped Him according to the light he had....YET....he is not said to be in God's Kingdom....part of God's people...UNTIL AFTER he'd begun hearing the Gospel....and God, looking on his heart.....saw his belief....and honoured it by sending the Holy Spirit in power upon him....and upon his believing relatives and friends as well.
So....in light of all this.....I think it's highly inaccurate to attempt to use those verses to somehow justify a syncretistic belief that other religions are 'acceptable' to God and sufficient for salvation.....WITHOUT coming to a 'belief' in Jesus, a 'putting faith and trust in Jesus Christ Himself'.
At most....verses 34/35 reflect Peter's paradigm shift...from a traditional Jewish belief that for anyone to become acceptable to God...they had to convert....become a proselyte to Judaism....be circumcised, etc....but through the supernatural intervention of God...with BOTH Cornelius AND Peter....Peter now saw that God could and would 'save' Gentiles directly...just as He would save 'Jews'.....with no intermediary step required in between. Gentiles were or could be....'acceptable' to God....for salvation.....WITHOUT BECOMING JEWS FIRST.
However....the story clearly tells us that they HAD TO HEAR the Gospel....and respond to it in faith.....and THEN...they received the Holy Spirit.....ie; spirit baptized into God's family.
Blessings,
« Fri Feb 25, 2011 - 23:21:39 »
Quote
Quote:"That's what some say, but I think the truth is not so clear. The Bible says that:'acceptable' for what? For salvation...in and of itself? Or....for God to choose to send an angel to this Roman soldier (Centurian).....for what purpose? To commend him as having 'enough'? or....to have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to him...so he could enter the 'Kingdom of God'?
"In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him. (Acts 10:34a-35)"
Sigh.... Let's look at the entire context, shall we?
This man was apparently not even a proselyte to Judaism...but who HAD been exposed to it....and, within his 'light'....was an upright and sincere man, worshipping God as best he knew how.
(the entire story starts in verse 1...not in verse 34/35. The most that can be said....is that while Peter was being supernaturally prepared by God...to expand his vision to see that God intended to redeem Gentiles as well.....God was supernaturally preparing Cornelius....and arranging for him to hear....what? The 'GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST'.
In verse 5 & 6...Cornelius was plainly told that he was to send for Simon....and he would tell him what he MUST DO.
Immediately after the verse you quote...Peter carries on with THIS...
Quote
Quote:"Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)Peter speaks of the 'word' that god had sent to the Israelites....the message of 'peace by Jesus Christ'....and then Peter went on to PREACH THE GOSPEL to Cornelius, his relatives, and his close friends. The only one of the large group that had gathered....who was said to also be 'devout'....was one of his soldiers.
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;"
Now...was Cornelius....or ANY of his friends/neighbours....indwelt by the Holy Spirit prior to this moment? (rhetorical question...answer NO)
Was any of them justified...prior to Peter preaching the Gospel to them? Same answer.
WHILE Peter was preaching...when recounting the story to the church back in Jerusalem....Peter said that he had just BEGUN speaking....preaching THE GOSPEL....and the Holy Spirit fell on those present....as He had on the Disciples in the upper room on the day of Pentecost.
Quote
Quote:"Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith."
So....far from indicating that God saved/saves those who don't yet 'believe' in Jesus....what happened here is that God supernaturally brought about the chain of events to ENABLE these people to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.....BELIEVE on Him....RECEIVE the Holy Spirit....and thus enter the Kingdom of God.
What's important to note....is that this man....while apparently NOT a 'proselyte' to Judaism, might have been one of those who hung around in the outer courts of the synagogue....who had an interest in the things of God...as understood by the Jews.
So....he was a far cry from those....like, for instance, those Mother Theresa ministered to in India.....steeped in a pagan, godless religion....with many gods identified as demons by name.....he knew a fair bit about God....and worshipped Him according to the light he had....YET....he is not said to be in God's Kingdom....part of God's people...UNTIL AFTER he'd begun hearing the Gospel....and God, looking on his heart.....saw his belief....and honoured it by sending the Holy Spirit in power upon him....and upon his believing relatives and friends as well.
So....in light of all this.....I think it's highly inaccurate to attempt to use those verses to somehow justify a syncretistic belief that other religions are 'acceptable' to God and sufficient for salvation.....WITHOUT coming to a 'belief' in Jesus, a 'putting faith and trust in Jesus Christ Himself'.
At most....verses 34/35 reflect Peter's paradigm shift...from a traditional Jewish belief that for anyone to become acceptable to God...they had to convert....become a proselyte to Judaism....be circumcised, etc....but through the supernatural intervention of God...with BOTH Cornelius AND Peter....Peter now saw that God could and would 'save' Gentiles directly...just as He would save 'Jews'.....with no intermediary step required in between. Gentiles were or could be....'acceptable' to God....for salvation.....WITHOUT BECOMING JEWS FIRST.
However....the story clearly tells us that they HAD TO HEAR the Gospel....and respond to it in faith.....and THEN...they received the Holy Spirit.....ie; spirit baptized into God's family.
Blessings,
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Reply #17 by Paulus
Sorry I am wrong , you are right .
I am new to this and I understood the words "No debate , just fellowship for Catholic Christians" to be referring to Catholic Forum .
No wonder how puzzled I was that so much debate was going on without anyone being taken to task .
Yet I still choose not to debate . I have read the so-called debates , and to me they are often slanging matches without any intention to bring about a meeting of minds or to indulge in genuine dialogue .
God bless .
« Sat Feb 26, 2011 - 04:58:48 »
QuoteQuote:"Sorry I am sticking to the rules for once . No debate , just fellowship for Catholic Christians ."Please forgive me...if I'm out of line...but 'what rules'? Last time I checked...this was a discussion/debate forum....right? If all you wanted was 'fellowship for catholics'.....the place for THAT...is the 'catholic safe house'.....isn't that correct?
Blessings, ::smile
Sorry I am wrong , you are right .
I am new to this and I understood the words "No debate , just fellowship for Catholic Christians" to be referring to Catholic Forum .
No wonder how puzzled I was that so much debate was going on without anyone being taken to task .
Yet I still choose not to debate . I have read the so-called debates , and to me they are often slanging matches without any intention to bring about a meeting of minds or to indulge in genuine dialogue .
God bless .
Logged
Reply #18 by Catholica
Mclees8, the Catholic faith is very complex. It is not a broad-road gospel. What I am saying is not against the gospel, it is just acknowledging that God is greater than the gospel message and is not limited by what He has revealed. God is the judge, not you, not I. So if God deems that some person who never could possibly have known Jesus still acted uprightly his entire life and acknowledged the kernel of grace offered in him to realize that there is a God and believe in him, then we say that it is possible that God can still save that person. And yet that person's works do not earn him heaven; he is still saved by the one-time sacrifice of Jesus, who redeemed the whole world.
The Catholic faith does not try to limit God. We believe that He operates outside the sacraments, we believe that He operates outside of what He has revealed. God is very mysterious that way, and fits in no box. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't witness. God's grace to that lost person might just be meant to come from one of us. And the life of grace in the Church and with the Sacraments is always preferable to the life apart from the Church and the Sacraments, because it makes the narrow path easier to follow.
Sorry, mclees8, but some people have already lived and died in remote villages without ever hearing the gospel during their natural life. And say that Jesus appears to them and preaches the gospel between the time of their death and judgment. We can't believe this will happen because it hasn't been revealed, but just suppose. That person is still going to have to have responded to God's grace given to them during their life to even want to accept the gospel.
Grace is not only given through hearing the gospel, but is rather a free gift from God that also operates apart from hearing the gospel message.
I agree, why would one want to change the gospel for another? I don't believe that I am. Do you think God is limited?
« Sat Feb 26, 2011 - 06:37:15 »
I like this, from the prologue to the catechism:
"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS.
A most encouraging thought . It tells me that God is on the side of humankind and to just trust in him .
Listen I know you are talking to RC,s but how do you get this thought from above scripture. This states that only faith in Christ can save us. If all human kind would except this then the whole human race could be saved. How ever salvation is only extended to those who receive him by faith. so explain what you are thinking
mclees8, here is the scripture that is referenced by the Catechism. All of these words are basically directly from scripture.
1. Jn 17:3.
2. 1 Tim 2:3-4.
3. Acts 4:12.God is on the side of those who except the sacrifice of his Son and by faith live for Him. How is this say he is on the side of Human kind when human kind is lost and most will never come to saving faith.
That's what some say, but I think the truth is not so clear. The Bible says that:
"In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him. (Acts 10:34a-35)
Also look up anything that has to do with judgment, and it never says that only those who call Jesus "Lord" will be saved. God can (and does) save even those who never knew him, who acted uprightly and feared him. But it is much better to come into the fullness of the truth so that we can be more easily guided into the narrow path, because it is constricted and not many find it, except through Jesus and the truth of the gospel.
No sir What you say is against the tenants of our faith. You then deny the very scripture you have given from you own Catechism. Today there maybe those who want to believe in a broad road gospel. But Jesus was very clear When he said I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by me. You deny what he said " I am the gate to the sheep fold and anyone who tries to come in another way is a thief and a liar. You see its not just about being a good person its about believing in the one who suffered the cross for us. The very sacrifice of God.
Mclees8, the Catholic faith is very complex. It is not a broad-road gospel. What I am saying is not against the gospel, it is just acknowledging that God is greater than the gospel message and is not limited by what He has revealed. God is the judge, not you, not I. So if God deems that some person who never could possibly have known Jesus still acted uprightly his entire life and acknowledged the kernel of grace offered in him to realize that there is a God and believe in him, then we say that it is possible that God can still save that person. And yet that person's works do not earn him heaven; he is still saved by the one-time sacrifice of Jesus, who redeemed the whole world.
The Catholic faith does not try to limit God. We believe that He operates outside the sacraments, we believe that He operates outside of what He has revealed. God is very mysterious that way, and fits in no box. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't witness. God's grace to that lost person might just be meant to come from one of us. And the life of grace in the Church and with the Sacraments is always preferable to the life apart from the Church and the Sacraments, because it makes the narrow path easier to follow.
For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whomsoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
The Lord said when the gospel is preached in all the world then the end shall come. All will have the opportunity to believe. There will be many good people but that is not salvation.
Sorry, mclees8, but some people have already lived and died in remote villages without ever hearing the gospel during their natural life. And say that Jesus appears to them and preaches the gospel between the time of their death and judgment. We can't believe this will happen because it hasn't been revealed, but just suppose. That person is still going to have to have responded to God's grace given to them during their life to even want to accept the gospel.
Grace is not only given through hearing the gospel, but is rather a free gift from God that also operates apart from hearing the gospel message.
How is that you want to change the gospel for another. how is it that you would be a slap in the face for all those who were martyred for their witness of Christ and now you say they died for nothing.
I agree, why would one want to change the gospel for another? I don't believe that I am. Do you think God is limited?
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Reply #19 by mclees8
I know you do not want to debater with me and that is all right. I do want really want to debate either but just keep truth from being buried under all the confusion.
As long as there are denominations and as long as there is pride, arrogance, and ignorance there will be the irresistible need to debate and flex ego's. Its like a football game pitting one side against the other. How ever in the heat of the battle the truth is often kicked around like a football.
This football game is not the Lords but ours. I have come here with one truth and I am not the only one who understands this. God has no pet denomination. There is no Protestant Catholic. God only has a people and they must walk in the spirit and according to his word. There is none, and not even the RCC that has no error or is more of God than another. All that is needed for truth and salvation has been written and those who live by it will be saved, because there is only one gospel and one truth and that is Jesus Christ crucified for the sins of the world.
There is no Im Ok your OK gospel. However this truth is being lost on the lips of many who say they are Christians. Jesus is the truth and there is no other.
« Sat Feb 26, 2011 - 07:01:16 »
QuoteQuote:"Sorry I am sticking to the rules for once . No debate , just fellowship for Catholic Christians ."Please forgive me...if I'm out of line...but 'what rules'? Last time I checked...this was a discussion/debate forum....right? If all you wanted was 'fellowship for catholics'.....the place for THAT...is the 'catholic safe house'.....isn't that correct?
Blessings, ::smile
Sorry I am wrong , you are right .
I am new to this and I understood the words "No debate , just fellowship for Catholic Christians" to be referring to Catholic Forum .
No wonder how puzzled I was that so much debate was going on without anyone being taken to task .
Yet I still choose not to debate . I have read the so-called debates , and to me they are often slanging matches without any intention to bring about a meeting of minds or to indulge in genuine dialogue .
God bless .
I know you do not want to debater with me and that is all right. I do want really want to debate either but just keep truth from being buried under all the confusion.
As long as there are denominations and as long as there is pride, arrogance, and ignorance there will be the irresistible need to debate and flex ego's. Its like a football game pitting one side against the other. How ever in the heat of the battle the truth is often kicked around like a football.
This football game is not the Lords but ours. I have come here with one truth and I am not the only one who understands this. God has no pet denomination. There is no Protestant Catholic. God only has a people and they must walk in the spirit and according to his word. There is none, and not even the RCC that has no error or is more of God than another. All that is needed for truth and salvation has been written and those who live by it will be saved, because there is only one gospel and one truth and that is Jesus Christ crucified for the sins of the world.
There is no Im Ok your OK gospel. However this truth is being lost on the lips of many who say they are Christians. Jesus is the truth and there is no other.
Logged
Reply #20 by packerfan
« on: February 24, 2011, 12:15:40 PM »
Note I have not used the word Magisterium .
My use of the word yesterday led to false accusations as the threads progressed .
I am seeking to find the way Roman Catholics express their beliefs in their own day to day language .
There is nothing to be wary of in this . I am not trying to catch anyone out . Answers may differ . No problem . We are all in the process of learning .
Some on Catholic Forum have seriously doubted that I am a Roman Catholic .
Feel free to ask me any question that will clarify this . However allow me to use my own words . They may not be the ones you would use , but the belief underlying them will be the same .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greetings Friend :
We can use many venue's Within the Roman Catholic Church that leads us in our faith ( Magisterium, Rubics , Catechism , Tradition ,Bible, etc.)
For me it is when Jesus stated in Holy Scripture, Come Follow Me.Every aspect in the Whole Universal Church (Meaning Roman Catholic) tells us to come to His Table, Eat of His Bread , Drink of His Cup ,then get get up , follow Him and do the work that needs to be done.
Shalom:
Packerfan
« Sun Mar 20, 2011 - 00:18:23 »
What is the most basic Roman Catholic belief ? « on: February 24, 2011, 12:15:40 PM »
Note I have not used the word Magisterium .
My use of the word yesterday led to false accusations as the threads progressed .
I am seeking to find the way Roman Catholics express their beliefs in their own day to day language .
There is nothing to be wary of in this . I am not trying to catch anyone out . Answers may differ . No problem . We are all in the process of learning .
Some on Catholic Forum have seriously doubted that I am a Roman Catholic .
Feel free to ask me any question that will clarify this . However allow me to use my own words . They may not be the ones you would use , but the belief underlying them will be the same .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greetings Friend :
We can use many venue's Within the Roman Catholic Church that leads us in our faith ( Magisterium, Rubics , Catechism , Tradition ,Bible, etc.)
For me it is when Jesus stated in Holy Scripture, Come Follow Me.Every aspect in the Whole Universal Church (Meaning Roman Catholic) tells us to come to His Table, Eat of His Bread , Drink of His Cup ,then get get up , follow Him and do the work that needs to be done.
Shalom:
Packerfan
Logged
Reply #21 by chestertonrules
Well stated.
« Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 07:20:49 »
What is the most basic Roman Catholic belief ?
« on: February 24, 2011, 12:15:40 PM »
Note I have not used the word Magisterium .
My use of the word yesterday led to false accusations as the threads progressed .
I am seeking to find the way Roman Catholics express their beliefs in their own day to day language .
There is nothing to be wary of in this . I am not trying to catch anyone out . Answers may differ . No problem . We are all in the process of learning .
Some on Catholic Forum have seriously doubted that I am a Roman Catholic .
Feel free to ask me any question that will clarify this . However allow me to use my own words . They may not be the ones you would use , but the belief underlying them will be the same .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greetings Friend :
We can use many venue's Within the Roman Catholic Church that leads us in our faith ( Magisterium, Rubics , Catechism , Tradition ,Bible, etc.)
For me it is when Jesus stated in Holy Scripture, Come Follow Me.Every aspect in the Whole Universal Church (Meaning Roman Catholic) tells us to come to His Table, Eat of His Bread , Drink of His Cup ,then get get up , follow Him and do the work that needs to be done.
Shalom:
Packerfan
Well stated.
Logged