Author Topic: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity  (Read 222333 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 10:35:28 »
Why did Jesus say this?

John 19
 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!

Christian Forums and Message Board

Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 10:35:28 »

Offline Josiah

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1896
  • Manna: 80
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #1 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 10:43:46 »
Why did Jesus say this?

John 19
 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!

Angelos

  • Guest
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 10:55:17 »
Josiah must either be unemployed or get paid to post in the Catholic forum. He posts here 5-6 times a day, seconds after any Catholic posts, usually copying and pasting his standard crap. He has ruined the forum by inundating it, every day, with his anti-Catholic propaganda and has made any serious discussion impossible.

If the mods look, they would see that before Josiah came here (late May of 2010), flooding the forum with his crap,  the Catholic forum had some interesting dialogue.

I refuse to engage him, but I will keep counting his anti-Catholic mass-copied posts on the Catholic forum...as of now 233 and counting

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #3 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 10:57:10 »
Why did Jesus say this?

John 19
 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!

Offline Josiah

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1896
  • Manna: 80
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #4 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 11:00:09 »
Why did Jesus say this?

John 19
 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #4 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 11:00:09 »



Angelos

  • Guest
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #5 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 11:01:32 »
Josiah,

you're 22 years old - get a real job

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #6 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 11:03:29 »



1.  The question is MOOT to any official position of ANY denomination.   Including the issue of the title of the thread.  


2.  The question is a typical Catholic diversion, an attempt to shift the discussion from sex to sibs, from Mary to Jesus.


3.  Questions substantiate NOTHING.  Questions asked or possible answers offered.   It's YOUR dogma.  You need to supply substantiation for it - not open ended questions about OTHER issues.







.



If the question is moot why did you post a non answer to a non question?

Clearly, the question is legitimate and compelling.


Angelos

  • Guest
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #7 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 11:05:11 »

 


If the question is moot why did you post a non answer to a non question?



Because he's obsessed with the Catholic Church and has nothing else to do with his time

k-pappy

  • Guest
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #8 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 11:05:37 »
Angelos, knock it off.  If you do not have anything contructive to add to the thread, stay out of it.

Chesterton, what protestants deny the virginity of Mary?  The virgin birth of Christ is the mainstay of Christianity, whether Catholic or Protestant.

Bond

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #9 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 11:07:52 »
Angelos, knock it off.  If you do not have anything contructive to add to the thread, stay out of it.

Chesterton, what protestants deny the virginity of Mary?  The virgin birth of Christ is the mainstay of Christianity, whether Catholic or Protestant.

Bond

I think you know that I am referring to Mary's perpetual virginity.


Offline Josiah

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1896
  • Manna: 80
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #10 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 11:15:40 »



1.  The question is MOOT to any official position of ANY denomination.   Including the issue of the title of the thread.  


2.  The question is a typical Catholic diversion, an attempt to shift the discussion from sex to sibs, from Mary to Jesus.


3.  Questions substantiate NOTHING.  Questions asked or possible answers offered.   It's YOUR dogma.  You need to supply substantiation for it - not open ended questions about OTHER issues.







.



If the question is moot why did you post a non answer to a non question?


The topic of the thread is Mary's VIRGINITY, not Jesus' sibs.   




Quote
Clearly, the question is legitimate and compelling.


A question is a question - it's substantiation for nothing.

The question has nothing to do with Mary or how often She had sex after Jesus was born.

I attempted to get the discussion back to the topic as stated in the title of the thread.   Did you want to discuss that?







.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30701
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #11 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 11:18:48 »
She married, had sex with her husband, and had more children. Hard to see how she was a perpetual virgin.(However I think we have been through all this before)
I have never understood why it matters so much to Catholics. She was the mother of Jesus, but why does she need to be a perpetual virgin? Sex in marriage is godly and good, and doesnt somehow  make her unholy or something. It makes her an obedient and loving wife to Joseph.

Offline Josiah

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1896
  • Manna: 80
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #12 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 11:20:50 »
Angelos, knock it off.  If you do not have anything contructive to add to the thread, stay out of it.

Chesterton, what protestants deny the virginity of Mary?  The virgin birth of Christ is the mainstay of Christianity, whether Catholic or Protestant.

Bond

I think you know that I am referring to Mary's perpetual virginity.



If it is, if the title of this thread is the subject of this thread, then the verse you quoted is moot to the topic.  


My experience in Catholicism is that this is one of the verses Catholics occasionally use to try to support that Jesus had no sibs.  It's entirely baseless of course, moot to that subject,  but that's typically what it is quoted for.  But, by your own admission, that's not the issue we are to discuss.  Ironically, you seem to be hijacking your own thread - right in the opening post!  




As YOU very well know, there is no Protestant dogma of "Jesus Had Sibs" (or Jesus Didn't Have Sibs).   Yes, I know, SOME Protestants have an opinion about whether Jesus had sibs or not (you'll find many of them have opinions about the war in Iraq and global warming too) but there is no dogma on this in ANY Protestant denomination known to me.   This seems to merely be attempt to change the topic or deflect the substantiation for the issue of the thread.


The RCC's dogma is NOT that Jesus Had No Sibs.  There is no such dogma in the RCC.  Never has been.  For reasons unknown to me, it seems Catholics will do ANYTHING to evade the dogma - shifting it to a dogma no one has (Jesus Had No Sibs), trying to deflect the burden of proof to those who don't have any dogma on it.


The Dogma is NOT about sibs, it's about sex.   It's not about Jesus, it's about Mary.   I invite you to stay on your own topic.






.







.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 11:29:27 by Josiah »

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #13 on: Wed Sep 15, 2010 - 11:49:22 »
Angelos, knock it off.  If you do not have anything contructive to add to the thread, stay out of it.

Chesterton, what protestants deny the virginity of Mary?  The virgin birth of Christ is the mainstay of Christianity, whether Catholic or Protestant.

Bond

I think you know that I am referring to Mary's perpetual virginity.



If it is, if the title of this thread is the subject of this thread, then the verse you quoted is moot to the topic.  


My experience in Catholicism is that this is one of the verses Catholics occasionally use to try to support that Jesus had no sibs.  It's entirely baseless of course, moot to that subject,  but that's typically what it is quoted for.  But, by your own admission, that's not the issue we are to discuss.  Ironically, you seem to be hijacking your own thread - right in the opening post!  




As YOU very well know, there is no Protestant dogma of "Jesus Had Sibs" (or Jesus Didn't Have Sibs).   Yes, I know, SOME Protestants have an opinion about whether Jesus had sibs or not (you'll find many of them have opinions about the war in Iraq and global warming too) but there is no dogma on this in ANY Protestant denomination known to me.   This seems to merely be attempt to change the topic or deflect the substantiation for the issue of the thread.


The RCC's dogma is NOT that Jesus Had No Sibs.  There is no such dogma in the RCC.  Never has been.  For reasons unknown to me, it seems Catholics will do ANYTHING to evade the dogma - shifting it to a dogma no one has (Jesus Had No Sibs), trying to deflect the burden of proof to those who don't have any dogma on it.


The Dogma is NOT about sibs, it's about sex.   It's not about Jesus, it's about Mary.   I invite you to stay on your own topic.





Many more words without answering the question.

Could you at least attempt to answer the question in the OP?
.







.

Offline Ryan2010

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 600
  • Manna: 19
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ Conquers
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #14 on: Thu Sep 16, 2010 - 14:14:23 »

Why did Jesus say this?

John 19
 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #15 on: Thu Sep 16, 2010 - 14:53:20 »
Ryan, you are very patient and perceptive.

Great post, I couldn't have done it!

Offline Josiah

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1896
  • Manna: 80
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #16 on: Thu Sep 16, 2010 - 16:23:05 »

Why did Jesus say this?

John 19
 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!

Offline Ryan2010

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 600
  • Manna: 19
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ Conquers
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #17 on: Thu Sep 16, 2010 - 19:09:45 »
Quote
The original poster has specifically stated that the topic of this thread and the issue we are to discuss is this:  The Perpetual Virginity of Mary.  It's NOT "Did Jesus have sibs."  Thus, I fail to see how the verse quoted in the opening post is relevant to the topic he insists is the matter before us.


It's a simple correlation that if she didn't have kids and people were convinced that she had kids and then see that she probably didn't have kids then maybe the idea of perpetual virginity is not such a huge leap.

It's an internet forum and everything isn't going to be written out in legalese so sometimes we have to give a little elbow room when it comes to topics and the sloppy way in which we toss them about.  Longsuffering, patience, etc. 

We can note that just because she didn't have kids it doesn't necessarily mean she was ever Virgin.  Noted. 
 
Besides the natural progression of chat forums winds up talking about all kinds of things.  First you say, "oh look, the jews had a custom and according to law the eldest surviving son should receive care of the Mother should the eldest son pass" and "oh look, it's common amongst the Jews of Jesus time that when God would manifest Himself in some great display or perform a miracle everyone abstains from relations for extended periods of time" and oh look, "Jews wouldn't even go near the ark or the tabernacle or the Holy of Holies and here the Son of God was in the womb of a young girl and it's implausible that a righteous man such as Joseph would even dream of going near Mary as a sort of ark" etc...   

It's the unpredictable whateverness that arises out of these chat forums that makes it part of the experience.

Quote
However, protestant dogma varies from group to group


Quote
Yes, although not on this point.  I'm not aware of ANY Protestant denomination that has a dogma of "Mary Had Sex" or "Mary Had No Sex."   I agree, individual Protestants may have a personal opinion about such, but then they have personal opinions about thousands of things, such is not official, formal  dogma.


Oh there's plenty that think of this as a huge issue otherwise you wouldn't get such heated debates over it.  The Jesus didn't have siblings/Perpetual Virginity issue gets listed on the "unbiblical teachings" lists in Protestant churches and as you know one of the staple dogmas (though it's not actually help up as a mirror) is that you have to justify your beliefs based on Holy Scripture.   

And you said it best.  There is no official formal dogma according to the whole of protestantism otherwise Protestantism would cease to exist. 

Quote
And again, I fail to see what that has to do with the Scripture in question.


The only reason I had to bring up dogma is because you said that because Protestants have no dogma it's not a topic worth discussing and the burden of proof was on the RCC anyway. 

The thing is, dogma in Protestantism isn't expressed as a whole but on the individual level.  Otherwise you couldn't have Zwingli and Luther taking communion together.  When Luther takes communion, he chews Jesus but Zwingli is experiencing the cognitive recollection and symbolism and yet both are true to the whole of protestantism because the system is set up on the "personal" or "individual" level.   I'm sure there's plenty of individuals out there that thinks that Mary having kids and other things must! be so and to believe otherwise is dangerous to your soul because you're going against the "bible". 


Quote
Then what does the verse in question have to do with the dogma that is the topic of this thread?


It simply starts a dialog and opens possibilities.  If I believe Mary in no way could have not had other kids because the bible says so and then realize maybe the bible doesn't then maybe I can actually start looking at the teachings about her Virginity.   

Quote
My experience as a Catholic includes the awareness that this verse is often used to try to suggest that Jesus had no siblings, but the opening poster specifically said that it NOT the topic of this thread, the topic is the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.


Noted.  Now you can humor the conversation and see if other protestants would like to discuss the "open" topic or perhaps just focus on her Virginity or not participate altogether.  We get it.  They are not directly link.  Life is rough.  We'll make do. 

Quote
What?   None of that has anything whatsoever to do with the issue here.


well, we had a succession of topics and I was going with the flow (that's how the internet rolls)

First topic was listed in the topic header and that was about Mary's Virginity.  Ok.  I figured it was probably about her Perpetual Virginity. 

Second topic was revealed when the verse posted was about siblings.  Ok.  I can see a loose correlation here and also worth something exploring and not a bad stepping stone. 

I read the replies and see that a third topic is posted.  The third topic is how the title header and the verses listed are two separate issues and doesn't want to acknowledge any kind of correlation.  I continue to read the reply and it says that it doesn't matter either way what the topic header is or the verses about siblings because Protestants don't have any dogma according to the "whole" of Protestantism and therefore is rendered "Moot". 

So I reply and say that Protestants don't have any dogma according to the whole.  True.  However, on a personal and individual level they certainly do have dogmas/doctrines/teachings regarding both the issue of Mary's Perpetual Virginity and the Sibling issue.  And so I go on to explain this reality by providing the example of Luther and Zwingi going to the very same "protestant" Church and approaching communion and Luther is personally chewing Jesus with his teach (Martin's words) and Zwingli is enjoying a nice symbolic cognitive recollection experience and yet because they define "church" as the church of "self" they are in perfect "communion" with one another even though they are both divided on who Jesus is.  Martin is approaching the Jesus who is present in the Eucharist and Zwingli is approaching the Jesus who established a symbolic cognitive journey of recollection.   

When in Rome....   

Now we have a totally surreal fourth topic of what the topic is not and is and maybe if we are fortunate we might actually get around talking about one of the two original topics posted. 


Quote
Even if the poster is only asking for individual personal opinions (which, of course, means they are not Protestant view only views of Protestants - apples and oranges), then what in the world does the verse have to do with what he has stated is the singular topic of this thread:  The Perpetual Virginity of Mary?


Well, if she didn't have kids (you've mentioned this three times I think and I've replied three times to this it seems) then it might be possible that she remained ever Virgin.  Of course there's no Protestant dogma or doctrine or teaching that binds all protestants on Mary but since those things are only ever personally expressed then for those individuals that do believe Jesus had siblings or that Mary was not ever Virgin (most assume she wasn't ever Virgin because of the Siblings) then the two topics listed aren't a bad way to approach it. 

I would say that the verse isn't too far out of the ball park with where it could potentially lead toward but if we keep up this Filibuster we'll never find out. 



Quote
Read the title of the thread.
Read what the opening poster specifically said is THE topic of this thread.

It's not "What does this verse mean?"  It's not, "Are there any Protesants who have an opinion that Jesus might have had siblings?"

Frankly, no one - including the opening poster himself! - has had any impute whatsoever in how this verse relates to the issue he says we are to discuss.  It MIGHT have some relevance to an issue about sibs but he insists and the title indicates that that is not the issue we are to discuss, that's NOT the topic.


A fourth time?  See above. 


Quote
And again, the author of this thread gave the title to it.  It's about Mary and sex, not Jesus and sibls.  He is the one who specifically stated that the issue we are to discuss is this:  The Perpetual Virginity of Mary.   that's about Mary.  That's about sex. 


If that's something you want to talk about ok.  However we can also talk about how it is not in line with the topic but that would be off topic too.  Either way this thread seems to be rolling along... 




Filibuster.  Yikes!




Christ is risen.

Offline Snargles

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1777
  • Manna: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #18 on: Thu Sep 16, 2010 - 19:39:35 »
I don't see what the fuss is about. The OP is a simple question about why Jesus asked John to look after his mother rather than have one of his brothers do it. Bond gave the simple answer to the simple question: at this time Jesus' brothers were not believers so he asked someone close to him to take on the responsibility. In a somewhat similar way a friend asked my wife and I to look after her child is she and her husband both died in a fiery plane crash. Her mother or brother would be the closest blood relatives but her brother is a doofus and her mother is at a grandmotherly age. What does any of this have to do with Mary's virginity? This is only a problem is you make it one. Scripture clearly says that Jesus had brothers and sisters so I accept it. How could whether or not Mary was a perpetual virgin have anything to do with my salvation? Jesus paid the price for my sins, not Mary. Why do we even need to have this discussion?    ::frustrated::

Angelos

  • Guest
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #19 on: Thu Sep 16, 2010 - 20:46:58 »
Only a person completely ignorant of middle-eastern phrases would think that Jesus' brethren means his biological siblings. Anyone who knows even a little knows that in the middle east the term is much wider and it includes clan-members.

According to some clueless people, Bible phrases, like: “the Lord’s brother

Offline Snargles

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1777
  • Manna: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #20 on: Thu Sep 16, 2010 - 21:01:49 »
Count me as one the "clueless" ones for I believe that when the bible says "brother" it means "brother". James, the apostle that Paul spoke to, was the son of Joseph and Mary who qualified as being an apostle because he had known Jesus during his life on earth even though like the rest of Jesus' brothers and sisters he didn't accept his divinity until after he died.

Why is it important to catholics that Mary be a virgin? Do you think there is something wrong with married people having sexual relations? Would having brothers diminsh Jesus' importance? I don't understand why the doctrine ever started. Enlighten me.  ::shrug::

Angelos

  • Guest
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #21 on: Thu Sep 16, 2010 - 21:06:39 »
Count me as one the "clueless" ones for I believe that when the bible says "brother" it means "brother". James, the apostle that Paul spoke to, was the son of Joseph and Mary who qualified as being an apostle because he had known Jesus during his life on earth even though like the rest of Jesus' brothers and sisters he didn't accept his divinity until after he died.

Why is it important to catholics that Mary be a virgin? Do you think there is something wrong with married people having sexual relations? Would having brothers diminsh Jesus' importance? I don't understand why the doctrine ever started. Enlighten me.  ::shrug::

Not only the Catholic, but the Orthodox Church as well believes in the perpetual virginity of Mary. All of the unified Church of Christ for 1500 years believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. All the early Church Fathers (including the ones who wrote the Nicene Creed) believed in it...I trust the early Church Fathers more than some cluless Americans who have no idea of middle-eastern culture and phrases around Jesus' life.

Offline Snargles

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1777
  • Manna: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #22 on: Thu Sep 16, 2010 - 21:14:47 »
But WHY does it matter if she was a virgin all her life?

People used to believe the earth was flat but they got over that.

I used to think that Jesus had blue eyes and long blond hair (I saw his picture) but now I know better. Either way he died for my sins. So what does it matter if Mary denied Joseph sexual relations all through their marriage?

larry2

  • Guest
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #23 on: Thu Sep 16, 2010 - 21:23:07 »
Matthew 1:25. And he (Joseph) knew her not till she (Mary) brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
« Last Edit: Mon Nov 22, 2010 - 18:23:10 by larry2 »

Offline Josiah

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1896
  • Manna: 80
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #24 on: Thu Sep 16, 2010 - 21:58:25 »
I don't see what the fuss is about. The OP is a simple question about why Jesus asked John to look after his mother rather than have one of his brothers do it. Bond gave the simple answer to the simple question: at this time Jesus' brothers were not believers so he asked someone close to him to take on the responsibility. In a somewhat similar way a friend asked my wife and I to look after her child is she and her husband both died in a fiery plane crash. Her mother or brother would be the closest blood relatives but her brother is a doofus and her mother is at a grandmotherly age. What does any of this have to do with Mary's virginity? This is only a problem is you make it one. Scripture clearly says that Jesus had brothers and sisters so I accept it. How could whether or not Mary was a perpetual virgin have anything to do with my salvation? Jesus paid the price for my sins, not Mary. Why do we even need to have this discussion?    ::frustrated::

Nothing.  Which is why the verse has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, according to the opening poster.





.

Offline Ryan2010

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 600
  • Manna: 19
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ Conquers
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #25 on: Thu Sep 16, 2010 - 22:14:32 »
Quote
Matthew 1:25. And he (Joseph) knew her not till she (Mary) brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

The Greek for "until" is "heos." It can vary in usage and we see it in passages like Matt 28:20. 

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until (heos) the end of the age


Does this mean that he is with us always until he is not? 


Also have to ask ourselves if the passage is truly trying to tell us about the private life of Joseph and Mary.  Most likely, no.  The point of the passage is only to make clear to us that Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph. 




Angelos

  • Guest
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #26 on: Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 06:22:37 »
I don't see what the fuss is about. The OP is a simple question about why Jesus asked John to look after his mother rather than have one of his brothers do it. Bond gave the simple answer to the simple question: at this time Jesus' brothers were not believers so he asked someone close to him to take on the responsibility. In a somewhat similar way a friend asked my wife and I to look after her child is she and her husband both died in a fiery plane crash. Her mother or brother would be the closest blood relatives but her brother is a doofus and her mother is at a grandmotherly age. What does any of this have to do with Mary's virginity? This is only a problem is you make it one. Scripture clearly says that Jesus had brothers and sisters so I accept it. How could whether or not Mary was a perpetual virgin have anything to do with my salvation? Jesus paid the price for my sins, not Mary. Why do we even need to have this discussion?    ::frustrated::

Nothing.  Which is why the verse has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, according to the opening poster.





.

I want to inform that there's a relationship between having sex and having kids!! Usually, virgins do not have kids and married women who are not infertile (Mary wasn't) and have sex, have kids. So the post was relevant to the discussion since it supports the view that Mary did not have kids. If she did, Jesus would not have insulted his siblings buy giving Mary to a stranger
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 06:26:46 by El Tigre »

Angelos

  • Guest
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #27 on: Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 07:22:40 »
That Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus is a doctrinal stance of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Of the early fathers of the Church, only Tertullian seems to have questioned the teaching.

 The most prominent leaders of the Reformation, Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin also defended the perpetual virginity of Mary against those who questioned it.

 Defenders of the teaching, including John Calvin, have pointed out that Aramaic, the language spoken by Christ and his disciples, lacked a specific word for "cousin," so that the word "brother" was used instead. In addition, nothing in Greek or Aramaic disqualifies a half-brother (same father, different mother) from being called a "brother".

Angelos

  • Guest
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #28 on: Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 07:42:21 »
This is the Orthodox view on Mary's perpetual virginity from http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/evervirgin.aspx

The earliest work I know of which uses the term "ever-virgin" is Against Beron and Helix by Hippolytus, written around 220 AD. The Infancy Gospel of James, probably written between 140-170 AD, does not (if I recall correctly) use that specific term, but does treat her as ever-virgin.

Also according to the early Fathers:

Athanasius the Great, Against the Arians, Second oration, pgh. 70 (between 356-360 AD): "Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin;"

Hippolytus, Against Beron and Helix, from fragment 8 (around 220 AD?): "But the pious confession of the believer is that, with a view to our salvation, and in order to connect the universe with unchangeableness, the Creator of all things incorporated with Himself a rational soul and a sensible body from the all-holy Mary, ever-virgin, by an undefiled conception, without conversion, and was made man in nature, but separate from wickedness: the same was perfect God, and the same was perfect man; the same was in nature at once perfect God and man. "

Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, from book 7, chapter 16 (written between 192-202 AD): "Now such to us are the Scriptures of the Lord, which gave birth to the truth and continue virgin, in the concealment of the mysteries of the truth. "


Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6263
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #29 on: Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 07:42:55 »
Just a thought, an angle that I'd never thought of before.

In Jewish thought, a woman was more blessed if she had more chlldren.  So if Mary was a "highly favored" daughter, as many Bibles translate Luke 1:28, then it would stand to reason that Mary, if she had been sexually active, would have been blessed with many children as well.  So it seems we can use the question of whether Jesus had siblings as an implicit indication of whether Mary was a virgin.

Why is it important to catholics that Mary be a virgin? Do you think there is something wrong with married people having sexual relations? Would having brothers diminsh Jesus' importance? I don't understand why the doctrine ever started. Enlighten me.  ::shrug::


Its important because it is true; it is part of Sacred Tradition.   The Catholic Church teaches that married people having marital relations is a very, very good thing.  It has nothing to do with "Jesus' importance."  :)

Here is an article that explains things well.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512sbs.asp

God Bless,

Andre

Offline Snargles

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1777
  • Manna: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #30 on: Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 07:45:22 »
That Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus is a doctrinal stance of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Of the early fathers of the Church, only Tertullian seems to have questioned the teaching.

 The most prominent leaders of the Reformation, Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin also defended the perpetual virginity of Mary against those who questioned it.

 Defenders of the teaching, including John Calvin, have pointed out that Aramaic, the language spoken by Christ and his disciples, lacked a specific word for "cousin," so that the word "brother" was used instead. In addition, nothing in Greek or Aramaic disqualifies a half-brother (same father, different mother) from being called a "brother".

You told us that already.
Now tell me why it sould matter to us that Mary reamined a virgin. How do you reconcile that with Paul's teaching that a husband and wife shouldn't withheld sex from each other.

Angelos

  • Guest
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #31 on: Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 07:50:16 »
That Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus is a doctrinal stance of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Of the early fathers of the Church, only Tertullian seems to have questioned the teaching.

 The most prominent leaders of the Reformation, Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin also defended the perpetual virginity of Mary against those who questioned it.

 Defenders of the teaching, including John Calvin, have pointed out that Aramaic, the language spoken by Christ and his disciples, lacked a specific word for "cousin," so that the word "brother" was used instead. In addition, nothing in Greek or Aramaic disqualifies a half-brother (same father, different mother) from being called a "brother".

You told us that already.
Now tell me why it sould matter to us that Mary reamined a virgin. How do you reconcile that with Paul's teaching that a husband and wife shouldn't withheld sex from each other.

What matters to me is modern Protestants' arrogance that drives them to dismiss the beliefs of the early Church Fathers.

 Do you really think you know better than them??? At least the early Protestant leaders, like Calvin and Luther, had some respect for the early unified Church that Jesus built

Offline Selene

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Manna: 148
  • Gender: Female
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #32 on: Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 08:13:01 »
You told us that already.
Now tell me why it sould matter to us that Mary reamined a virgin. How do you reconcile that with Paul's teaching that a husband and wife shouldn't withheld sex from each other.

Our Blessed Mother was not going against St. Paul's teaching.  Mary's mother, Anna, devoted her child to the service of the Lord, as Samuel had been by his mother (1 Sam. 1:11). Mary served God at the Temple, as women had for centuries (1 Sam. 2:22).  However, due to considerations of ceremonial cleanliness, it was eventually necessary for Mary, a consecrated "virgin of the Lord," to have a guardian or protector who would respect her vow of virginity. Thus, Joseph, an elderly widower who already had children, was chosen to be her spouse. This would also explain why Joseph was apparently dead by the time of Jesus’ adult ministry, since he does not appear during it in the gospels, and since Mary is entrusted to John, rather than to her husband Joseph, at the crucifixion.

In Christ,
Selene


Offline Josiah

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1896
  • Manna: 80
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #33 on: Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 08:45:20 »
What does any of this have to do with Mary's virginity?   ::frustrated::

Nothing.  Which is why the verse has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, according to the opening poster.





.

I want to inform that there's a relationship between having sex and having kids!!


Sure.  So, IF it could be substantiated that Mary had other children - that would make this dogma problematic, at best.

But the inverse is moot, thus the typical Catholic apologetic is absurd.   I think everyone (12 and older anyway) knows that a single case of loving, mutual sharing of intimacies within the Sacrament of Marriage does not mandate that ergo there will be a child resulting from such specifically mentioned in the Bible - or even a child at all.   Come on, we're NOT a biologically ignorant as some Catholics seem to think.  No children does NOT confirm no sex.   The whole apologetic is MOOT (and silly and kind of insulting of our intelligence).


The dogma is that Mary Had No Sex Ever.  It's about Mary and sex. 
YOU are the one that needs to confirm that she had no sex ever.
And why that tidbit of bedroom data is SO very, very, very important to Catholics so as to mandate a  Dogma.





.


Offline Selene

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Manna: 148
  • Gender: Female
Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #34 on: Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 08:52:38 »
The dogma is that Mary Had No Sex Ever.  It's about Mary and sex. 
YOU are the one that needs to confirm that she had no sex ever.
And why that tidbit of bedroom data is SO very, very, very important to Catholics so as to mandate a  Dogma.
 

The proof is in her answer to the Angel Gabriel.