Author Topic: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity  (Read 224254 times)

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Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #210 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 15:37:14 »
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..... I hope you realize that those that are mentioned in the bible are there for a reason and those who are not mentioned in the bible are not there for a reason! John 5:39 These are the scriptures that testify about me, Jesus said.


Yes.  

The entire OT points to Christ and through him, as our lens, the OT tells the story of the relationship between man and God fulfilled.  

Eve points to the fruit, man partakes, man points to Eve, "the woman you gave me..."

Mary points to the fruit of her womb, man partakes, man points to Mary, "the woman you gave us...."   Mary points to Christ.

The ark points to the womb, the womb to the temple

Jacobs Ladder points to the ascension of man, Mary points to the descension of the Son of Man, Christ becoming flesh, the flesh to Mary, Mary to Christ...

On and on.  It's all over the OT and Mary is there, pointing to Christ.  



It is written....

Ezekial

2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.

3 The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway to eat in the presence of the LORD. He is to enter by way of the portico of the gateway and go out the same way."




If you don't see Mary as the portico, the very doorway through which the Son of Man came into the world, it does not matter.  Mary is still called blessed.    Mary still points to Christ.  







Christ is risen


 


Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #211 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 15:45:18 »


Does this photograph of "brothers" portray a first-born? 

Does this photograph of "brothers" portray an only-begotten?


It can't be both.

It can't be both unless the "brothers" depicted in the photograph have a different Mother.   




Not every first-born is an only-begotten but every only-begotten is a first-born. 







Christ is risen.




I don't normally post here as no side, in this debate, will convince the other side that they are wrong.  I had to answer this post though.  The bible tells us that Jesus was the 'only begotten' son of God:

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Heb 11:17  By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

1Jn 4:9  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.


Please show me where the bible says that Jesus was the 'only begotten' son of Mary.





I think that very question points to a divorce between the two natures of Christ of which the term Theotokos marries and rightly so... 

Google Nestorius and you will have, unless I am mistaken, stumbled upon the same question.

Do you agree with Nestorius against the council? 


In short, do you believe that it takes two in order to be "begotten".


For the record, I am not saying that Jesus was "made" by the Father or by Mary. 

As the creed says, "begotten, not made". 


In his human nature Jesus would not be an only begotten if he had brothers and sisters, no? 


Fully man, fully God. 



This is hard stuff.  The reason why entire assemblies of bishops got together to wrestle it out in prayer and in the fear of God. 


 ::prayinghard::



Offline Nyoka

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #212 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 16:31:42 »
Ryan2010 Please answer my question without trying to sidetrack it: Please show me where the bible says that Jesus was the 'only begotten' son of Mary.  All it needs to answer me is to give the scriptures that state it as such.  Now most of us are adults here and know that it is physically possible for a woman to have children to more than one father. 

Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #213 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 16:32:12 »
Does Jesus being "begotten" only point to him being born of the Father or is it not also bound up in his incarnation?

Can we divorce his incarnation from him being begotten of the Father?

Can we divorce the Son of Man from the Son of God?

Can we divorce Mary from the incarnation?

Can we divorce the temple from Christ or the incarnation of the temple in the flesh from Mary?  

That God became man that man might become by grace what God is by nature means that we must know Christ, not cognitively, but through the uniting of God and His creation through the incarnation.  We must become partakers in the divine nature.  

We can not remove Mary from the marriage of the divine nature to the entire cosmos (all of creation) or we risk over-spiritualizing the very tangible relationship that God's creatures can have with their Creator through His Son.  Jesus is incarnate of the Holy Spirit AND the Virgin Mary.  

We can not divorce the Holy Spirit from the Virgin Mary or who we say we believe God is runs the risk of becoming unorthodox.  

If we live a life according to who we say God is, then this necessarily effects our communion with God.  

As St. Paul said, (if I remember correctly and I am paraphrasing here) we are our own epistles and how we life our life is how those epistles are to be read.  

In short, how we live our life IS our doctrine.  



Do you see Mary here, pointing to Christ?  Do you see how she even points to his crucifixion?  



We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end.


Amen




Glory to Jesus Christ





Offline davidmac

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #214 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 16:33:04 »
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In his human nature Jesus would not be an only begotten if he had brothers and sisters, no?  
He is the only begotten of The Father (God)-not the only child of Mary!

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #214 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 16:33:04 »



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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #215 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 16:35:31 »
God bless Ryan.

Just imagine how the wind and the waves of confusion would cease if people listened and learned from God through his Spirit than to men...

 ::destroyingcomputer:: all them strange voices...

None of us are any better than another, we have all been hardened by sins deceitfulness, therefore God has put together the parts of the body - those honored and those without so much honor - together to work together for the common good.

Offline Nyoka

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #216 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 16:36:09 »
Ryan2010 it is fast becoming obvious you can't give me the answer to my question.  Either answer my question or admit you can't answer it using the bible: Please show me where the bible says that Jesus was the 'only begotten' son of Mary.  

Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #217 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 16:45:26 »
Ryan2010 Please answer my question without trying to sidetrack it: Please show me where the bible says that Jesus was the 'only begotten' son of Mary.  All it needs to answer me is to give the scriptures that state it as such.  Now most of us are adults here and know that it is physically possible for a woman to have children to more than one father. 

Ezekiel 44:2-3

2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.

3 The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway to eat in the presence of the LORD. He is to enter by way of the portico of the gateway and go out the same way."


I apologize if you feel that I am sidetracking but I don't see these issues as being separate from one other.  They are bound up in each other.  

Yes, it's physically possible for women to have more than one child but if we believe that Mary had other children then we have divorce the "incarnation" from the term "only-begotten".  

As a Christian I can not do this and there are lots of supports for this reality in the Holy Scripture.  

I thought that the best answer to your question was more clearly described when The Church faced Nestorius.  When I read over the council's decision against Nestorius I was moved to see the Holy Scriptures in a fuller expression of the faith and helped me overcome my belief against Mary being Ever-Virgin.  


God bless


Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #218 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 16:50:54 »
Ryan2010 it is fast becoming obvious you can't give me the answer to my question.  Either answer my question or admit you can't answer it using the bible: Please show me where the bible says that Jesus was the 'only begotten' son of Mary.  


Sorry, I had not yet replied to your question by the time you posted this.  You have to be patient and long suffering with me.  I often overlook replies and wind up responding to other replies out of sequence. 

Of course I am not saying that Jesus was begotten ONLY of Mary but I think in my various replies to others I've covered the issue of why I can't divorce the incarnation from Christ having been "begotten" and why I believe to do so would be unorthodox. 

I also gave you a scriptural reference that points to Christ being an only-begotten child of Mary but whether or not you will accept the interpretation might either have to do with your tradition or presuppositions or the way in which you approve or reject interpretations. 


Sorry for the misunderstanding or any burden of frustration I may have cause you. 


Christ is risen


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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #219 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 16:52:08 »
Ryan2010 Please answer my question without trying to sidetrack it: Please show me where the bible says that Jesus was the 'only begotten' son of Mary.  All it needs to answer me is to give the scriptures that state it as such.  Now most of us are adults here and know that it is physically possible for a woman to have children to more than one father.  

Ezekiel 44:2-3

2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.

3 The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway to eat in the presence of the LORD. He is to enter by way of the portico of the gateway and go out the same way."


I apologize if you feel that I am sidetracking but I don't see these issues as being separate from one other.  They are bound up in each other.  

Yes, it's physically possible for women to have more than one child but if we believe that Mary had other children then we have divorce the "incarnation" from the term "only-begotten".  

As a Christian I can not do this and there are lots of supports for this reality in the Holy Scripture.  

I thought that the best answer to your question was more clearly described when The Church faced Nestorius.  When I read over the council's decision against Nestorius I was moved to see the Holy Scriptures in a fuller expression of the faith and helped me overcome my belief against Mary being Ever-Virgin.  


God bless



God bless Ryan. The scripture you mentioned is not a reference to Mary.

Only-Begotten from the dead - Jesus body did not see decay. This is the only explanation for the term "Only Begotten"

Ref: Acts 13:33-36 Hebrews 11:17,19
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 17:03:03 by Visionary »

Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #220 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 17:04:17 »
Quote
God bless Ryan. The scripture you mentioned is not a reference to Mary.

All scripture points to Christ and the story of the God's relationship with man through His Son...  

You don't see Mary as that portico, sotospeak?  

Quote
Only-Begotten from the dead - Jesus body did not see decay. This is the only explanation for the term "Only Begotten"

Ok, so for you, you see his only-begotteness (so not a word!  lol) as the first-fruits of the resurrection and not as his incarnational reality.  Hm.

I suppose we have a gap that neither of us has a bridge for when it comes to this topic that divides us.  


Back in the good ol' days when such a thing happened they would tell it to the Church.  

What we have today seems to be only the willingness to agree to disagree.  

A far cry from the unity of the faith that our forefathers spoke of.  




But regardless! let us love one another since we can't, with one mind, confess.  

 ::smile::








Offline Nyoka

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #221 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 17:12:47 »
Ryan2010 thank you for at least admitting that bible doesn't say that Jesus is the only begotten son of Mary.  I do understand that you can't divorce the incarnation from Mary but to be honest if there is no scriptural support for Jesus being the only begotten son of Mary then maybe what is believed by you is wrong.  

I don't see either of us convincing the other over this but I do see you love God so I will just agree that we won't agree on this as it has no bearing on our salvation.  

God bless Ryan2010  ::kissing::

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #222 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 17:24:18 »
 


God bless Ryan. The scripture you mentioned is not a reference to Mary.

Only-Begotten from the dead - Jesus body did not see decay. This is the only explanation for the term "Only Begotten"

Ref: Acts 13:33-36 Hebrews 11:17,19

I thought it best I give you the references again to what only begotten means so that perhaps this time you will read the proofs.

God bless.

Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #223 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 18:34:08 »
Yes.  

The entire OT points to Christ and through him, as our lens, the OT tells the story of the relationship between man and God fulfilled.  

Eve points to the fruit, man partakes, man points to Eve, "the woman you gave me..."

Mary points to the fruit of her womb, man partakes, man points to Mary, "the woman you gave us...."   Mary points to Christ.

The ark points to the womb, the womb to the temple

Jacobs Ladder points to the ascension of man, Mary points to the descension of the Son of Man, Christ becoming flesh, the flesh to Mary, Mary to Christ...

On and on.  It's all over the OT and Mary is there, pointing to Christ.  



It is written....

Ezekial

2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.

3 The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway to eat in the presence of the LORD. He is to enter by way of the portico of the gateway and go out the same way."




If you don't see Mary as the portico, the very doorway through which the Son of Man came into the world, it does not matter.  Mary is still called blessed.    Mary still points to Christ.  
Christ is risen

I agree.  Mary is in the Old Testament just like Jesus is in the Old Testament.  Mary is seen as the Ark.  The Old Testament is correct.  As it says:  This gate is to remain shut.  It must not be opened; no one may enter through it.  It is to remain shut because the Lord, the God of Israel has entered through it and The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway.  

Jesus who is God was in Mary's womb.  No other human can be in it because no man can enter where God passed through or sits at.  That is what the Old Testament is alluding to.  
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 18:42:33 by Selene »

Offline 4Him

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #224 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 19:08:53 »
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author=Selene

I agree.  Mary is in the Old Testament just like Jesus is in the Old Testament.  Mary is seen as the Ark.  The Old Testament is correct.  As it says:  This gate is to remain shut.  It must not be opened; no one may enter through it.  It is to remain shut because the Lord, the God of Israel has entered through it and The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway.  

Jesus who is God was in Mary's womb.  No other human can be in it because no man can enter where God passed through or sits at.  That is what the Old Testament is alluding to.  

Eze. 44 is speaking of the LITERAL temple, not Mary's womb.

“This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter by it, because the LORD God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut. 3 As for the prince, because he is the prince, he may sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gateway, and go out the same way.

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #225 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 19:21:26 »
Man alive!!!

 ::shrug::

Where do you guys come up with these fantasies???

 ::destroyingcomputer::

Mary is Noah's arK???

 rofl

Mary carried two of all kinds of animals???

 ::frustrated::

Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #226 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 19:23:02 »
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author=Selene

I agree.  Mary is in the Old Testament just like Jesus is in the Old Testament.  Mary is seen as the Ark.  The Old Testament is correct.  As it says:  This gate is to remain shut.  It must not be opened; no one may enter through it.  It is to remain shut because the Lord, the God of Israel has entered through it and The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway.  

Jesus who is God was in Mary's womb.  No other human can be in it because no man can enter where God passed through or sits at.  That is what the Old Testament is alluding to.  

Eze. 44 is speaking of the LITERAL temple, not Mary's womb.

“This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter by it, because the LORD God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut. 3 As for the prince, because he is the prince, he may sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gateway, and go out the same way.

Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #227 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 19:27:42 »
Man alive!!!

 ::shrug::

Where do you guys come up with these fantasies???

 ::destroyingcomputer::

Mary is Noah's arK???

 rofl

Mary carried two of all kinds of animals???

 ::frustrated::

Who said anything about Noah's ark? 

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #228 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 19:31:36 »

In the Old Testament, the temple is a building.  What do you think the Temple is in the New Testament?  Is it not the human body?  Yes, Jesus sat in Mary's womb and ate bread.   Whatever the mother ate, the baby ate through the umbilical cord.  

WAKE UP SELENE!!!

My FOOD... said Jesus is... John 4:32-34

What does God eat??? Psalm 50

Stop thinking about the flesh!!!

God is Spirit!

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #229 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 19:42:52 »
The temple is not my area of expertice so I will point you towards a paper I just read yesterday concerning the three areas of the temple and how it is representative of the three areas of the body and three levels of the presence of God.
The writer of BLOODLINES paper I found by searching google...dimensions of God.


www.hanby.org/newsletter/BloodlineDEC2001.pdf - Similar

Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #230 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 19:52:44 »

In the Old Testament, the temple is a building.  What do you think the Temple is in the New Testament?  Is it not the human body?  Yes, Jesus sat in Mary's womb and ate bread.   Whatever the mother ate, the baby ate through the umbilical cord.  

WAKE UP SELENE!!!

My FOOD... said Jesus is... John 4:32-34

What does God eat??? Psalm 50

Stop thinking about the flesh!!!

God is Spirit!

I thought we were speaking about Jesus Christ who is a man who came down in the flesh.  Remember what St. John said, "That the Word was made flesh?"  Did you honestly think that Jesus cannot eat fish?  

Luke 24:41-44  But while they yet believed not, and wondered for joy, He said: Have you any thing to eat?  And they offered him a piece of a broiled fish, and a honeycomb.  And when He had eaten before them, taking the remains, He gave to them.  And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me

As you can see, Jesus ate fish.  And by the way, you still did not answer my question.  Who said anything about Noah's ark?  

Offline davidmac

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #231 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 19:56:07 »
Selene you said-
Quote
I agree.  Mary is in the Old Testament just like Jesus is in the Old Testament.  Mary is seen as the Ark. 

Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #232 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 19:57:35 »
The temple is not my area of expertice so I will point you towards a paper I just read yesterday concerning the three areas of the temple and how it is representative of the three areas of the body and three levels of the presence of God.
The writer of BLOODLINES paper I found by searching google...dimensions of God.


www.hanby.org/newsletter/BloodlineDEC2001.pdf - Similar


You have to read all that to try and figure out the three areas of the temple.  Visionary, now is the time for you to rely on Scripture.  

1 Corinthians 3:16  Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

What part in this biblical verse did you not understand?  It says that we are the Temple of God.  As a matter of fact, Jesus even refers to His body as a temple.  The human body is now the temple.  And the Holy Spirit dwells in this temple.  

Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #233 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 19:58:54 »
Selene you said-
Quote
I agree.  Mary is in the Old Testament just like Jesus is in the Old Testament.  Mary is seen as the Ark.  

In here, I was not referring to Noah's ark.  I was referring to the Ark of the Covenant, which was the dwelling place of God in the Old Testament.  Mary's womb was the dwelling place of Jesus who is God.

Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #234 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 20:10:17 »
Visionary, you've got to be kidding.  The article you posted says that the holiest place in the human body would be the head?  That is where the Holy Spirit dwells?  Catholic teachings says that the entire human body is the temple where the Holy Spirit dwells.  It does not specify the Head, the Kidney, or the stomach.  We are created in the image of God, and our bodies is the temple in the New Testament.  As Jesus said, "destroy this temple and within three days, I will raise it up."  He was speaking about His entire body, which we consider all Holy. 

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #235 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 20:14:18 »
Selene you said-
Quote
I agree.  Mary is in the Old Testament just like Jesus is in the Old Testament.  Mary is seen as the Ark.  

In here, I was not referring to Noah's ark.  I was referring to the Ark of the Covenant, which was the dwelling place of God in the Old Testament.  Mary's womb was the dwelling place of Jesus who is God.

OH BOY!!! What does he who ascended mean except he also descended!

Where does this idea Jesus dwells in Mary's womb come from?

Take a step back Selene. I am not wearing steel toed boots.

OF COURSE THE TEMPLE OF GOD IS OUR BODY!

Perhaps you should allow him in so that you do not continue to utter things with no foundation in Gods word.


Visionary

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #236 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 20:17:45 »
Visionary, you've got to be kidding.  The article you posted says that the holiest place in the human body would be the head?  That is where the Holy Spirit dwells?  Catholic teachings says that the entire human body is the temple where the Holy Spirit dwells.  It does not specify the Head, the Kidney, or the stomach.  We are created in the image of God, and our bodies is the temple in the New Testament.  As Jesus said, "destroy this temple and within three days, I will raise it up."  He was speaking about His entire body, which we consider all Holy. 

God bless Selene.

1Corinthians 2:16

Offline Snargles

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #237 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 20:20:46 »
Ryan -- you know I don't agree with you but I like that quote from Ezekial. I will give you a point on that one.

Offline Snargles

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #238 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 20:25:44 »
If you have never heard the Nicene creed in church snargles then what church do you belong?

The nicene creed declares the doctrine of Jesus Christ. The sound doctrine that is taught in every church belonging to God.


Church of Christ.
Most of the people in my congregation have probably never even heard of the Nicean Creed.
One of our old sayings is "No creed but the Bible". We believe most (I would have to read through it again to say how much) of what is in the creed but just not in that form.

Offline 4Him

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #239 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 21:07:31 »
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author=Selene

In the Old Testament, the temple is a building.  What do you think the Temple is in the New Testament?  Is it not the human body?  Yes, Jesus sat in Mary's womb and ate bread.   Whatever the mother ate, the baby ate through the umbilical cord.  

I guess the context of EZE 44 means nothing to you?

Mary's virginity is irrelevant after the birth of Christ.  And the OT testifes of HIM, not His mother.

Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #240 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 21:13:01 »
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author=Selene

In the Old Testament, the temple is a building.  What do you think the Temple is in the New Testament?  Is it not the human body?  Yes, Jesus sat in Mary's womb and ate bread.   Whatever the mother ate, the baby ate through the umbilical cord.  

I guess the context of EZE 44 means nothing to you?

Mary's virginity is irrelevant after the birth of Christ.  And the OT testifes of HIM, not His mother.

Why do you say that the context of Ezekiel means nothing to me?  We know that no one can sit where God sits.  No one in Heaven can sit on His throne.  And when God sat in Mary's womb, what makes you think that another human being can sit there too?  

And you are incorrect.  The OT does testify of His mother too.  See the Scripture below.  Who did you think this virgin was?   

Isiah 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #241 on: Sun Sep 26, 2010 - 21:18:41 »
Visionary, you've got to be kidding.  The article you posted says that the holiest place in the human body would be the head?  That is where the Holy Spirit dwells?  Catholic teachings says that the entire human body is the temple where the Holy Spirit dwells.  It does not specify the Head, the Kidney, or the stomach.  We are created in the image of God, and our bodies is the temple in the New Testament.  As Jesus said, "destroy this temple and within three days, I will raise it up."  He was speaking about His entire body, which we consider all Holy. 

God bless Selene.

1Corinthians 2:16

God bless  you too, Visionary. 

Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #242 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 08:16:57 »
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author=Selene

I agree.  Mary is in the Old Testament just like Jesus is in the Old Testament.  Mary is seen as the Ark.  The Old Testament is correct.  As it says:  This gate is to remain shut.  It must not be opened; no one may enter through it.  It is to remain shut because the Lord, the God of Israel has entered through it and The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway.  

Jesus who is God was in Mary's womb.  No other human can be in it because no man can enter where God passed through or sits at.  That is what the Old Testament is alluding to.  

Eze. 44 is speaking of the LITERAL temple, not Mary's womb.

“This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter by it, because the LORD God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut. 3 As for the prince, because he is the prince, he may sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gateway, and go out the same way.

Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #243 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 08:19:24 »
Mary's womb was the dwelling place of Jesus who is God.

Actually, according to God's Scripture, the world is.  John 1:14 for example.  By your "logic," all people must be perpetual virgins.  I'm quite certain you're wrong.




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Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #244 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 08:26:04 »
My last post too.  St. Athanasius, 4th century, wrote a letter with the term ever-virgin Mary in it.

Yes.  It seems the first even mention of this DOGMA is a title used by this singular individual in 362 AD.   Nothin' before that.  Nothin' more than that.




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Of course, we have the Nicean Creed , very early 4th century, with the reference to the Virgin Mary.

Yes.  It says Our Lord was BORN of the virgin Mary.   No one is contending here about Her being a virgin at the birth of Our Lord.  It does not say, "Born of the PERPETUAL virgin" or "Born of Mary who was a virgin at that time and remained so until Her death or possibilty undeath, we aren't disclosing which."






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