Author Topic: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity  (Read 224317 times)

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Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #280 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 20:38:52 »
I just have one question for you Selene. Why would anyone who has received the Holy Spirit that comes from God study "Catholic Sources" that are added to the Scriptures? The scripture is flawless purified seven times over. So why would anyone seek another Counsellor other than the One Jesus promised to all those who obey him?

Because the Holy Spirit is in the Church and Christ is the Head of the Church.  Scripture says that the pillar and foundation of the Truth is the Church (1 Timothy 3:15).  Scripture NEVER said that the pillar and foundation of Truth is the Bible. 


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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #281 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 20:53:13 »
There was only one man born without sin Josiah. Who is Jesus Christ. A scripture comes to mind... they exchanged the glory of God (JESUS CHRIST) for a lie (MARY) and worshiped and served created things (MARY) rather than the Creator (JESUS). Romans 1

Offline Hehealedme

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #282 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 20:57:39 »
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« Last Edit: Mon Dec 08, 2014 - 12:26:14 by Hehealedme »

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #283 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 21:39:42 »
You didnt believe your school teacher that you are the offspring of a monkey did you Selene? Surely the bible tells us otherwise! Just like those things the Catholics were telling you as a child were not true. Surely the bible told you otherwise! Now before there is another inquisition and Catholics start burning Christians at the stake again... Lol. Someone shared with me the meaning of the word "Catholic" from its original language Greek. Does anyone have a strongs concordance? In part Catholic means universal but there is more to it. I dont want you or anyone to be focused on your church or its traditions even the things now commonplace ... like bakesales ??? Those things should not be! But be focused on Jesus, the author and perfecter of your faith. In the "full meaning" of the word all who are born of God are Catholic! SO YO!!! There are enough proofs given here already that Mary was just as much a sinner as you or me. She was blessed! Consider what God said to her, the one born in you.....con,t

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #284 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 21:43:10 »
... how I wish Christ were formed in you. If I recall correctly Paul said this to the Corinthians. Therefore blessed like Mary we receive the Holy Spirit in us...piercing our hearts...just as Mary,s was... Romans 2:28,29

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #284 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 21:43:10 »



Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #285 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 22:24:35 »
You didnt believe your school teacher that you are the offspring of a monkey did you Selene? Surely the bible tells us otherwise! Just like those things the Catholics were telling you as a child were not true. Surely the bible told you otherwise! Now before there is another inquisition and Catholics start burning Christians at the stake again... Lol. Someone shared with me the meaning of the word "Catholic" from its original language Greek. Does anyone have a strongs concordance? In part Catholic means universal but there is more to it. I dont want you or anyone to be focused on your church or its traditions even the things now commonplace ... like bakesales ??? Those things should not be! But be focused on Jesus, the author and perfecter of your faith. In the "full meaning" of the word all who are born of God are Catholic! SO YO!!! There are enough proofs given here already that Mary was just as much a sinner as you or me. She was blessed! Consider what God said to her, the one born in you.....con,t

Now, where is this coming from?  You asked me a question in your post,....remember?  You asked me this question below:  

From Visionary:  I just have one question for you Selene. Why would anyone who has received the Holy Spirit that comes from God study "Catholic Sources" that are added to the Scriptures? The scripture is flawless purified seven times over. So why would anyone seek another Counsellor other than the One Jesus promised to all those who obey him?

I answered your question in my last post.  My answer was this below:  

From Selene:  Because the Holy Spirit is in the Church and Christ is the Head of the Church.  Scripture says that the pillar and foundation of the Truth is the Church (1 Timothy 3:15).  Scripture NEVER said that the pillar and foundation of Truth is the Bible.  

And now, suddenly, you are being insulting by asking me if I believe my school teacher saying that I was an offspring of a monkey?  What gives?  How did my school teacher even come into the discussion?  Why don't you simply address what I wrote?  Do you see anything in my post about a school teacher or even about evolution, monkeys or even the Inquisition?  So, where did this come from?    
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 22:36:52 by Selene »

Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #286 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 22:34:19 »

Selene...My sources come directly from the Bible. I just find sources on the internet that explain what I believe to be the Truth. Why do I do it this way?...very simple. I am French, my English stinks, I am not a good writer. If I tried writing all this by myself, it would take me days...


As for you, HehealedmeNOT, your sources came directly from NON-CATHOLIC websites.  Didn't you see the weblinks you posted in your own posts?  Here, let me help you put on your glasses for you.   I placed it in bold so you can see it better.  I agree with you....Your English stinks!  You can't even read the part where you posted "Quote taken from" and right after it was a weblink from a NON-CATHOLIC website.  


Quote taken from   http://www.trinitycrc.org/sermons/jn19v26.html.



Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #287 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 22:56:42 »
... how I wish Christ were formed in you. If I recall correctly Paul said this to the Corinthians. Therefore blessed like Mary we receive the Holy Spirit in us...piercing our hearts...just as Mary,s was... Romans 2:28,29

So, what does sword piercing the heart have to do with sin?  Oh really?  St. Paul said "blessed like Mary, we receive the Holy Spirit?" Wow!  Imagine that.  The Apostle Paul recognize Mary and even called her bless just like us Catholics.  

Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #288 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 22:58:56 »
Again, what does sword piercing have to do with sin?

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #289 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 23:14:02 »
Selene. Hebrews 4:12 Yet new wine cannot be poured into old wine skins. And no one sews a new patch on old cloth. Would you do this not for me or anyone else but for yourself... Throw out those Catholic Sources you trust so much and put your trust in Jesus Christ and call on him to intercede for you instead of Mary? I tell you the truth...if you are sincere you will find him and he will give you a Counsellor that will lead you into all truth. God bless.

Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #290 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 23:40:21 »


So, what does sword piercing the heart have to do with sin?  

What does sin have to do with insisting that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance, relevance and certainty of truth that Mary Had No Sex Ever?





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Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #291 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 23:46:07 »
Selene. Hebrews 4:12 Yet new wine cannot be poured into old wine skins. And no one sews a new patch on old cloth. Would you do this not for me or anyone else but for yourself... Throw out those Catholic Sources you trust so much and put your trust in Jesus Christ and call on him to intercede for you instead of Mary? I tell you the truth...if you are sincere you will find him and he will give you a Counsellor that will lead you into all truth. God bless.

Visionary, I already answered your question when you asked me about why we use Catholic sources.  This is what you said in your post:  

From Visionary:  Luke 2:35 If I recall correctly Simeon prophecied to Mary concerning Jesus... saying, ...and a sword will pierce your soul also... Mary was not born free from sin!!! She like all of us was born of man the seed of man born under the curse upon all men! Maybe you should read your bible with open eyes Selene. John 5:39 A person can read a bible their whole lives and Jesus will still say, I never knew you. Understanding what is written is an entirely different matter... It is God breathed and can ONLY be understood by the Spirit that comes from God. John 3:8 The wind is with him who has been born of the Spirit of God.  

So, now answer the question.  What has sword piercing Mary's soul have to do with sin?  Answer the question.  HehealedmeNOT already have an excuse if she can't answer questions.  Her excuse as she pointed out was that her English stinks.  You, on the other hand, can speak English, do you not?  

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #292 on: Mon Sep 27, 2010 - 23:57:25 »
Selene. When Daniel applied himself to seek understanding an answer was immediately given to him. Where did his answer come from? I tell you the truth if you ask you will receive if you seek you will find if you knock the door will be opened for you. No one can receive anything except it is given him from heaven. God bless. Everything we need for life and godliness God has given to us through his divine nature and his promises... Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of the heavenly lights who does not change like shifting shadows. The Spirit and the bride say Come! ...take the free gift of the water of life. These promises are given to those who will receive them by faith. God bless you all.

Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #293 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 00:33:02 »
Selene. When Daniel applied himself to seek understanding an answer was immediately given to him. Where did his answer come from? I tell you the truth if you ask you will receive if you seek you will find if you knock the door will be opened for you. No one can receive anything except it is given him from heaven. God bless. Everything we need for life and godliness God has given to us through his divine nature and his promises... Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of the heavenly lights who does not change like shifting shadows. The Spirit and the bride say Come! ...take the free gift of the water of life. These promises are given to those who will receive them by faith. God bless you all.

Again, you did not answer the question.  What has sword piercing have to do with sin?  You were the one who made this statement below, NOT Daniel, so don't even go there. 

From Visionary:  From Visionary:  Luke 2:35 If I recall correctly Simeon prophecied to Mary concerning Jesus... saying, ...and a sword will pierce your soul also... Mary was not born free from sin!!! She like all of us was born of man the seed of man born under the curse upon all men! Maybe you should read your bible with open eyes Selene. John 5:39 A person can read a bible their whole lives and Jesus will still say, I never knew you. Understanding what is written is an entirely different matter... It is God breathed and can ONLY be understood by the Spirit that comes from God. John 3:8 The wind is with him who has been born of the Spirit of God. 

You made the above statement, and I asked YOU a question about your statement.  What has swording piercing have to do with sin?  You do understand what I'm saying, do you not?  You can read English, can't you?  So, then explain your position regarding the statement you made. 

 

Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #294 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 00:50:56 »
Selene. When Daniel applied himself to seek understanding an answer was immediately given to him. Where did his answer come from? I tell you the truth if you ask you will receive if you seek you will find if you knock the door will be opened for you. No one can receive anything except it is given him from heaven. God bless. Everything we need for life and godliness God has given to us through his divine nature and his promises... Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of the heavenly lights who does not change like shifting shadows. The Spirit and the bride say Come! ...take the free gift of the water of life. These promises are given to those who will receive them by faith. God bless you all.
 

So, Visionary, answer the question. YOU made the statement, and I asked a question regarding your statement, so answer it.  I will be waiting and checking up on this thread for your answer. 

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #295 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 08:34:55 »
From Selene:  Because the Holy Spirit is in the Church and Christ is the Head of the Church.  Scripture says that the pillar and foundation of the Truth is the Church (1 Timothy 3:15).  Scripture NEVER said that the pillar and foundation of Truth is the Bible.  


Wrong.

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."  Acts 17:11

"15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."  2 Peter 3:15-17

"16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."  2 Timothy 3:16-17

Offline John 10:10

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #296 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 08:41:00 »
If you want to believe that Christ was born from sin and came from sin, that's your right.  

The sin seed in the human race from Adam & Eve forward was passed to ALL following generations through the seed of man, not through the woman!  

Mary was born from the seed of man; therefore, she inherited a fallen nature just like every other human since the fall.

Jesus did not inherit the seed of Adam because Mary only provided the egg, while God provided the seed, the Word of God who became flesh.

This is why Jesus was sinless at His birth and throughout His life, and Mary was not.  All sinners, including Mary, need the redemption that is only found in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessings
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 09:41:34 by John 10:10 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #297 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 09:36:14 »
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."  Acts 17:11
The authority here was Paul, teaching the Sacred Tradition of the Church.  Then the Bereans looked to see if what he was teaching was true, with regard to prophecies of Christ.  Yet they still had to believe that Jesus existed, they had to trust that the oral teachings of Paul were not fabrications.  They had to trust Paul's authority.
 
"15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."  2 Peter 3:15-17
No doubt.  Paul's letters are hard to understand sometimes.  That is why we have the Magisterium of the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit on issues of faith and morals, who are able to correctly interpret scripture based on the teachings of the fathers and the Truths guarded by the Church through established doctrine and dogmas.

"16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."  2 Timothy 3:16-17
Selene is not saying that scripture is not the Truth.  She is saying that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.  A "pillar and foundation" are things that uphold something, therefore scripture is saying that the Church stands up for the truth and defends it.  That has played out for the past 2000 years, but some opinions may vary.

Offline John 10:10

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #298 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 10:05:14 »

Paul writes this in 1 Tim 3:15,

"but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth."

Many churches down through the ages, both Catholic and Protestant, have at times NOT been pillars and supported the truth as given and revealed in His Word the Bible, showing is how we are to conduct ourselves in the household of God - the universal Church. 

When this happened, God always raised up faithful men and women of God to bring us back to the truth of His Word - the Bible.  Local churches come and go, but

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether.

Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #299 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 10:35:32 »

The authority here was Paul

Then where did Paul say that Mary Had No Sex Ever?





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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #300 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 11:06:02 »
Since you didnt understand the first time you were answered not by man but by Gods word... listen and understand... Hebrews 4:12 He was pierced for your transgression... Therefore if that does not pierce your soul... Why not?

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #301 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 11:18:40 »
Bondservant... you should know the truth yourself! 1john 2:26,27 The very first thing after receiving the Holy Spirit I was shown is that the Church leaders have defiled the "milk" and I know it is true!!! Listen to yourself!!! Since when did a man need the Catholic church to tell him what truth was? NEVER!!! The Spirit is the truth. The Spirit comes from God the Father not from man! Christ means anointed and unless you are born of Spirit/anointed... John 3:5

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #302 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 11:38:03 »
Not so long ago I crashed my pc bad! Not even the installation cd could recover it. After many attempts through various means I tried to get it to reboot. Finally I had to wipe the entire drive and start from nothing. It took two whole days just to install the operating systems updates. In this same way God operates. He wipes the slate clean and installs a brand new operating system updating your minds a little at a time continually until you reach maturity and become like Christ. Boasting not in men or a church but in knowing The Father and the Son who alone is righteous just and faithful...and if you are Gods temple then Jesus is faithful as a servant over Gods temple for its good. I tell you the truth I learned more through experiencing Gods grace than I ever did in church!

Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #303 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 12:21:55 »
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFYcREO5-j0[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkxFTPc0cBs&NR=1[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOSsCz02wOI&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxl-sdGn1ss&feature=related[/youtube]


Here is what the Coptics! have to say about the Ever-Virginity of Mary, the Mother of God.


The St. Justin Martyr reference is quite interesting, no?




St. Justin Martyr,
Christian apologist, born at Flavia Neapolis, about A.D. 100, converted to Christianity about A.D. 130, taught and defended the Christian religion in Asia Minor and at Rome, where he suffered martyrdom about the year 165.











Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #304 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 12:32:31 »
Here is St. Jerome (often used by Protestants in bible "canon" debates against the ancient faiths) against Helvidius on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. 

Saint Jerome (c. 347 – 30 September 420) (formerly Saint Hierom) (Latin: Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus; Greek: Εὐσέβιος Σωφρόνιος Ἱερώνυμος) was an Illyrian Christian priest [1] and apologist. He was the son of Eusebius, of the city of Stridon, which was on the border of Dalmatia and Pannonia (and was overthrown by the Goths). He is best known for his new translation of the Bible into Latin, which has since come to be called the Vulgate and his list of writings are extensive.[2] (See Jerome and Early Church Fathers, Chapter 135)

He is recognized by the Catholic Church as a saint and Doctor of the Church, and his version of the Bible is still an important text in Catholicism. He is also recognized as a saint by the Eastern Orthodox Church, where he is known as St. Jerome of Stridonium or Blessed Jerome.[3]


....   (the following) tract appeared about a.d. 383. The question which gave occasion to it was whether the Mother of our Lord remained a Virgin after His birth. Helvidius maintained that the mention in the Gospels of the “sisters

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #305 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 14:15:57 »
Tell me to create another thread if asking this question is too inappropriate.

By who's testimony does the Church teach that Mary ascended to heaven and did not die the first death.

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #306 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 14:26:53 »
Tell me to create another thread if asking this question is too inappropriate.

By who's testimony does the Church teach that Mary ascended to heaven and did not die the first death.


I believe that this teaching is based on extrapolation of revelation. 

It is not a problem for Catholics and others who accept that the Holy Spirit is leading the Church into all Truth.

I agree that the case seems weak, but who am I?  I am willing to accept Church authority on the matter.

Here's a good summary:

The Assumption



The doctrine of the Assumption says that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, just as Enoch, Elijah, and perhaps others had been before her. It’s also necessary to keep in mind what the Assumption is not. Some people think Catholics believe Mary "ascended" into heaven. That’s not correct. Christ, by his own power, ascended into heaven. Mary was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She didn’t do it under her own power.

The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life" (note the silence regarding her death), "was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven."

The possibility of a bodily assumption before the Second Coming is suggested by Matthew 27:52–53: "[T]he tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Did all these Old Testament saints die and have to be buried all over again? There is no record of that, but it is recorded by early Church writers that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into that temporary state of rest and happiness often called "paradise," where the righteous people from the Old Testament era waited until Christ’s resurrection (cf. Luke 16:22, 23:43; Heb. 11:1–40; 1 Pet. 4:6), after which they were brought into the eternal bliss of heaven.

 
No Remains



There is also what might be called the negative historical proof for Mary’s Assumption. It is easy to document that, from the first, Christians gave homage to saints, including many about whom we now know little or nothing. Cities vied for the title of the last resting place of the most famous saints. Rome, for example, houses the tombs of Peter and Paul, Peter’s tomb being under the high altar of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. In the early Christian centuries relics of saints were zealously guarded and highly prized. The bones of those martyred in the Coliseum, for instance, were quickly gathered up and preserved—there are many accounts of this in the biographies of those who gave their lives for the faith.

It is agreed upon that Mary ended her life in Jerusalem, or perhaps in Ephesus. However, neither those cities nor any other claimed her remains, though there are claims about possessing her (temporary) tomb. And why did no city claim the bones of Mary? Apparently because there weren’t any bones to claim, and people knew it. Here was Mary, certainly the most privileged of all the saints, certainly the most saintly, but we have no record of her bodily remains being venerated anywhere.

 
Complement to the Immaculate Conception



Over the centuries, the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church spoke often about the fittingness of the privilege of Mary’s Assumption. The speculative grounds considered include Mary’s freedom from sin, her Motherhood of God, her perpetual virginity, and—the key—her union with the salvific work of Christ.

The dogma is especially fitting when one examines the honor that was given to the ark of the covenant. It contained the manna (bread from heaven), stone tablets of the ten commandments (the word of God), and the staff of Aaron (a symbol of Israel’s high priesthood). Because of its contents, it was made of incorruptible wood, and Psalm 132:8 said, "Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might." If this vessel was given such honor, how much more should Mary be kept from corruption, since she is the new ark—who carried the real bread from heaven, the Word of God, and the high priest of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.

Some argue that the new ark is not Mary, but the body of Jesus. Even if this were the case, it is worth noting that 1 Chronicles 15:14 records that the persons who bore the ark were to be sanctified. There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box, and not sanctifying the womb who carried God himself! After all, wisdom will not dwell "in a body under debt of sin" (Wis. 1:4 NAB).

But there is more than just fittingness. After all, if Mary is immaculately conceived, then it would follow that she would not suffer the corruption in the grave, which is a consequence of sin [Gen. 3:17, 19].

http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #307 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 14:56:57 »
Here is St. Jerome (often used by Protestants in bible "canon" debates against the ancient faiths) against Helvidius on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. 

Saint Jerome (c. 347 – 30 September 420) (formerly Saint Hierom) (Latin: Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus; Greek: Εὐσέβιος Σωφρόνιος Ἱερώνυμος) was an Illyrian Christian priest [1] and apologist. He was the son of Eusebius, of the city of Stridon, which was on the border of Dalmatia and Pannonia (and was overthrown by the Goths). He is best known for his new translation of the Bible into Latin, which has since come to be called the Vulgate and his list of writings are extensive.[2] (See Jerome and Early Church Fathers, Chapter 135)

He is recognized by the Catholic Church as a saint and Doctor of the Church, and his version of the Bible is still an important text in Catholicism. He is also recognized as a saint by the Eastern Orthodox Church, where he is known as St. Jerome of Stridonium or Blessed Jerome.[3]


....   (the following) tract appeared about a.d. 383. The question which gave occasion to it was whether the Mother of our Lord remained a Virgin after His birth. Helvidius maintained that the mention in the Gospels of the “sisters

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #308 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 14:58:40 »
Bondservant... you should know the truth yourself! 1john 2:26,27 The very first thing after receiving the Holy Spirit I was shown is that the Church leaders have defiled the "milk" and I know it is true!!! Listen to yourself!!! Since when did a man need the Catholic church to tell him what truth was? NEVER!!! The Spirit is the truth. The Spirit comes from God the Father not from man! Christ means anointed and unless you are born of Spirit/anointed... John 3:5

Do you believe that you are an infallible interpreter of scripture?

Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #309 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 15:02:25 »


Do you believe that you are an infallible interpreter of scripture?

Is there something wrong with self alone insisting that self alone is the sole, authoritative, infallible, unaccountable interpreter?  IF so, then take that up with the ONLY ONE (outside of the cults) that so insists for self alone: the RCC (The Catechism of the RCC itself in what it says in # 85 for example).

But, are you suggesting that there is a verse that is grammatically best interpreted to confirm to the highest level possible that Mary Had No Sex Ever?  If so, let's look at that verse where the words and grammar used so indicate.  Otherwise, this is not a hermeneutics issue.





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Offline chestertonrules

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #310 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 15:04:39 »


Do you believe that you are an infallible interpreter of scripture?

Is there something wrong with self alone insisting that self alone is the sole, authoritative, infallible, unaccountable interpreter?  IF so, then take that up with the ONLY ONE (outside of the cults) that so insists for self alone: the RCC (The Catechism of the RCC itself in what it says in # 85 for example).

But, are you suggesting that there is a verse that is grammatically best interpreted to confirm to the highest level possible that Mary Had No Sex Ever?  If so, let's look at that verse where the words and grammar used so indicate.  Otherwise, this is not a hermeneutics issue.





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We already know that you claim infallibility.

We also see it starting to crumble as you make your way back home!  Keep up the good work!!

Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #311 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 16:09:45 »
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Thank you.

So we not only know that this view is very late (4th century) but was debated at that time, with no consensus.


Those who debated against her Ever-Virginity were often charismatic heretics or individuals within the Church who were out on their own attempting to create a following and make a name for themselves and rise to power.  

They were few and far between and like swatting a troublesome fly they weren't difficult to rid because few and far between ever believed them especially since the vast majority of them were gnostic or from other outside fringe groups that believed that Jesus wasn't "God" until later in life or attempted to use the idea of Mary and Joseph being married as a license for carnal indulgence like in the case at Corinth (not the Christians at Corinth but those outside the church using Jesus to exploit their philosophy of indulging in the pleasures to increase sin and thereby mercy.  

And this particular apologetic is written by St. Jerome in and around the year 383 AD, but if you read the commentaries of Ezekial by the church fathers you will find that even St. Justin Martyr considered Mary to be the gate spoken of by the prophet Ezekial.  

Since some can only be convinced when there is a paper trail or some tangible evidence that can satisfy the mind's ability to grasp and reason, we can, insofar as the "paper trail" goes, point back to St. Justin Martyr.  

However, this won't satisfy the incorrigible and they will, according to their nature and by necessity of their nature, charge that St. Justin Martyr merely "innovated" the teaching.  We see this in those who are convinced that the Trinity is a doctrine created in the 3rd and 4th centuries and has it's roots in paganism.  

When you point out to them that St. Ignatius calls Jesus, God and speaks of Him in Trinitarian formula then they charge St. Ignatius with innovation.  I've had discussions with muslims who then attempt to tempt me against St. John the beloved's instruction of St. Ignatius by asking me how I knew for certain beyond all reasonable doubt that St. Ignatius had in fact not innovated the Holy Trinity.

However, like St. Ignatius, you have to take a leap of faith to believe, given the outcome of St. Justin Martyr's way of life, that he would, against the revelation of God, dare innovate.  The likelihood is that St. Justin Martyr did not innovate but instead, either using Christ as his lens, merely affirmed what had always been there or simply transmitted what he had been taught by those who rightly interpreted Ezekial before him.  

Only the bold lead you in such contradictory directions and when I face such broods of vipers I know my struggle is to keep my eyes on the purity of the faith, which like the dove that descended on Christ during the theophany, leads The Church into all Truth.  

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How does this confirm that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance, relevance and certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex Ever?


Choose your way, Josiah.  There are three paths you can take.  

1.  Take the stand that the interpretation of Ezekial is correct and is in communion with the revelation of God.  And since the purpose of Christian living is to be in communion with God, then insofar as we are not in communion with God, admit that it can be harmful to our soul.  

2.  Take the stand that the interpretation is incorrect and is out of communion with God and therefore should not be taught.  

3.  Sit on the fence between the two and say that you don't know.  

However, if you say that because you don't personally know, this necessarily means that number 1 and number 2 can't possibly know, then this 3rd stance is not based on the revelation of God but instead is based on the inability of an individual to see the Truth and reveals a pride only in the individual self over a united others.  

If one is in such a position as #3, it is best not to rail against number 1 for claiming to know and calling the issue "important". Because at the end of the day, they very well might be right.  And if you are found fighting against that which brings humanity in closer communion with their Creator, this can be harmful to your soul.  And if you are found attempting to say that, that which brings us in closer communion with our Creator is not! important then when the deeds of all lay naked before the dread judgment seat of Christ, you will as an individual have yet one more reason to cry out, Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQgZD-zP-cY[/youtube]











Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #312 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 16:44:39 »
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Thank you.

So we not only know that this view is very late (4th century) but was debated at that time, with no consensus.

Those who debated against her Ever-Virginity were often charismatic heretics or individuals within the Church who were out on their own attempting to create a following and make a name for themselves and rise to power.  

So....

Supposedly, Jesus and all 13-14 Apostles taught that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance, relevance and certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex Ever and yet:

1.  The first mention of it is in the 4th century.

2.  It was debated, with no consensus or generally agreement.

How does that confirm that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance, relevance and certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex Ever?






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Quote

How does this confirm that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance, relevance and certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex Ever?

Choose your way, Josiah.  There are three paths you can take.  

1.  Take the stand that the interpretation of Ezekial is correct and is in communion with the revelation of God.  And since the purpose of Christian living is to be in communion with God, then insofar as we are not in communion with God, admit that it can be harmful to our soul.  
2.  Take the stand that the interpretation is incorrect and is out of communion with God and therefore should not be taught. 


The "interpretation" is textually baseless.

 


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3.  Sit on the fence between the two and say that you don't know.  


Since no one has shown anything either way...
Since it seems entirely moot to anything either way...
Since I don't want to commit the sin of gossip....

BUT, truth matters to me.  And I will CONTINUE to vest considerable effort in this (and other topics) in HOPES that it can be resolved.  I'm not anything if not persistent, lol. 





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Because at the end of the day, they very well might be right.


... which seems like a good reason NOT to declare it dogma.  Such requires that then some brothers and sisters are made heretics (even dispatched to the afterlife smelling like smoke) for disagreeing.

... which probably suggests that pure acts of faith be given some respect.  Even if they are say Mormons.  Their support for their unique views are, not infrequently, considerably more sound than what has been presented here, but again - it IS believed and it IS possible (as ALL things not known to be contrary to Truth are).  My policy has been to respect such acts of faith in one to the same degree as they do to others (including me, my LDS friends, my Calvinist friends, etc.).  Seems reasonble, I'm sure you agree.

... and of course, at the end of the day they may very well be wrong.  IF we enter heaven and see Our Blessed Lady weeping in Her Son's arms because of what's being said about Her, some MIGHT have to say:  "I didn't care if it was true, I just joined in."  And yes, some might find her being praised for her "shut gate" and MIGHT have to say, "I didn't know if it was true." 

  


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And if you are found fighting against that which brings humanity in closer communion with their Creator, this can be harmful to your soul.

Well, I'm 22, single and a virgin.  I sense where you are going, but I'm just not SURE that sexual virginity means we are in greater communion with our Creator.  I DO believe that we are to keep the Ten Commandments, including vis-a-vis Our Lady.  Maybe ESPECIALLY vis-a-vis Our Lady.





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Offline Selene

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #313 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 17:36:04 »
Since you didnt understand the first time you were answered not by man but by Gods word... listen and understand... Hebrews 4:12 He was pierced for your transgression... Therefore if that does not pierce your soul... Why not?

What has sword piercing have to do with sin?  It is now morning in my country, and I am back on this thread and still no explaination!  Again, below is what you stated: 

From Visionary:  Luke 2:35 If I recall correctly Simeon prophecied to Mary concerning Jesus... saying, ...and a sword will pierce your soul also... Mary was not born free from sin!!! She like all of us was born of man the seed of man born under the curse upon all men! Maybe you should read your bible with open eyes Selene. John 5:39 A person can read a bible their whole lives and Jesus will still say, I never knew you. Understanding what is written is an entirely different matter... It is God breathed and can ONLY be understood by the Spirit that comes from God. John 3:8 The wind is with him who has been born of the Spirit of God. 

You quoted Luke 2:35 and stated that Mary sinned based on this biblical verse.   And I still don't see an explaination.

Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #314 on: Tue Sep 28, 2010 - 17:58:16 »

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So....

Supposedly, Jesus and all 13-14 Apostles taught that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance, relevance and certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex Ever and yet:

They didn't have to wrestle the issue of circumcision until it came up how many years after the resurrection?  The Holy Trinity wasn't, in statements of language, laid out as we have them today until heretics rose up and attempted to severe communion, that is, to divide Christ, until when?  


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1.  The first mention of it is in the 4th century.

1st Century.  St. Justin Martyr.  You have to charge that he innovated it or dismiss and minimize his interpretation which dismisses then all those who came after and affirmed it.  

You can't say it's not important if it's true.  People do this all the time it seems.  They say, hm, how little do I have to do to get to heaven?  

Oh, well, the thief got to paradise and there's no record of baptism therefore baptism isn't necessary.  Oh, well, the laying on of hands isn't important because everyone does it different and I'm sure they aren't going to go to hell because of that.  Oh, communion isn't important because I can get to heaven without it (so they presuppose).  Oh, well, I don't have to go to Church in order to be saved because I am my own Church.  On and on and on...  

Dogmatics isn't a utilitarian device used to smote folks but instead a safety rail that lets us know we are out of our jurisdiction and are in contradiction to the revelation of God.  

There are dogmatics on baptism, the Eucharist, sacraments as countless as they are...   People think dogma is a dirty word these days but that's because there is no dogma in many expressions of the faith other than don't you dare say that you "know" or say that it "matters" outside of yourself and so long as you let me in the front door even though I am in sharp contrast to who you say God is because that would be mean or unkind.

It's hate for the Truth wearing a mask of kindness and humility.  

That sort of pluralistic standard just isn't found in the Holy Scriptures.  

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2.  It was debated, with no consensus or generally agreement.

It was debated primarily by groups that weren't Christians and if you are studious you can look at the individuals who rose up from within the Church to argue against her Ever-Virginity.  

When you say, "no consensus" you are using a very wide stroke.  The secular historians do this when they want to paint the Church as being divided in early Christianity by trying show groups that aren't even Christian as Christians or pointing to individuals who crawl out the woodwork.  

You can't lump all these groups together to create a narrative and have it be true.  


Start with the fellow St. Jerome refutes if you want to see what kind of person these advocates against her Ever-Virginity were like...

Research each individual that stood up against her Ever-Virginity and notice they are usually using it to issue forth other ideas lumped in together.  

Look at which groups those individuals belonged to and what their agenda was.  Then come back and tell me that there was no "consensus" among "Christians".  

If you can call these groups Christian when most of them deny basic tenants that even Protestants believe in (somewhat regularly) then in your view, I guess you would believe yourself to be right on this issue.  

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How does that confirm that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance, relevance and certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex Ever?

If the Christological interpretation of the book of Ezekial the prophet  is sound then it is in communion with God and since whatever is not in communion with God is a threat to our communion then it is of highest importance, relevance and can, with all certainty, be called harmful to ones soul if rejected.  

The interpretation of course is based on the revelation of God otherwise it would be rejected and rightly so.  So in regards to the certainty of "Truth" it is sound for it through Christ (Truth!) as our lens, that we declare such interpretations as being true.

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The "interpretation" is textually baseless.

I guess your "base" is not based on the same "base" that those who came before you (St. Justin Martyr and St. Jerome) and stood upon so firmly "based" their interpretation on.

More than this it appears that insofar as this topic goes you appear to agree less with Luther and appeal more to those who would disagree with him.  Can you, as a Lutheran, be sure that you are even standing on the same "base" as Luther?  


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Since no one has shown anything either way...
Since it seems entirely moot to anything either way...
Since I don't want to commit the sin of gossip....

BUT, truth matters to me.  And I will CONTINUE to vest considerable effort in this (and other topics) in HOPES that it can be resolved.  I'm not anything if not persistent, lol. 

Sometimes we can be as persistent as the mule and yet unlike the mule, we ultimately wind up only kicking our self.  As Christ said to St. Paul, "it hurts to kick against the pricks".  



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Because at the end of the day, they very well might be right.


... which seems like a good reason NOT to declare it dogma.  Such requires that then some brothers and sisters are made heretics (even dispatched to the afterlife smelling like smoke) for disagreeing.

You are responsible for what you know.  Your whole argument of "not knowing" falls apart because in reality what you are saying is that because you don't know then it's impossible for others to know.  Your position of reversing dogmatics isn't based on truth but on your own limitations.  You admit you don't know but then you go one further by insisting that neither does anyone else.  

The problem here is that if it's true then it's not there to harm you but instead to help you be conformed to the image of the Son.  By declaring it dogmatic it is there as a safety rail to show you that you are leaving the reservation and are entering unknown and dangerous territory.  Just because you can't see the safety rail, doesn't mean it's not there.  


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... which probably suggests that pure acts of faith be given some respect.  Even if they are say Mormons.  Their support for their unique views are, not infrequently, considerably more sound than what has been presented here, but again - it IS believed and it IS possible (as ALL things not known to be contrary to Truth are).  My policy has been to respect such acts of faith in one to the same degree as they do to others (including me, my LDS friends, my Calvinist friends, etc.).  Seems reasonble, I'm sure you agree.

We respect the person but don't embrace that which is counter to communion with God.  You can go to plenty of churches where every wind of doctrine is welcome but there is no scriptural grounds for such a practice.  

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... and of course, at the end of the day they may very well be wrong.  IF we enter heaven and see Our Blessed Lady weeping in Her Son's arms because of what's being said about Her, some MIGHT have to say:  "I didn't care if it was true, I just joined in."  And yes, some might find her being praised for her "shut gate" and MIGHT have to say, "I didn't know if it was true." 


The problem is that it's not about her sexuality but is bound up in the Holiness of the incarnation of Our Lord and like the Cherubim, a good steward is often faced with having to stand guard and draw the sword of Truth.  If someone says, let them in that we might embrace both positions even though they are contradictory positions, then that one is not for us but instead only seeks to let the wolves in the front door by appealing to false charity and so up go the safety rails.

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Well, I'm 22, single and a virgin.  I sense where you are going, but I'm just not SURE that sexual virginity means we are in greater communion with our Creator.  I DO believe that we are to keep the Ten Commandments, including vis-a-vis Our Lady.  Maybe ESPECIALLY vis-a-vis Our Lady.

I think that you don't realize that this "Virginity" is not merely about sex but points to a greater Truth about partaking in the divine nature.  A uniting between the Creator and His creation.   It's not merely about the virtue of virginity in and of itself as a means within it's own end.  

It's a Christological position, not a biological one.  

And if flies in the face of dualism which is why most Gnostics were totally convinced Mary had other children.  Otherwise creation might could be, well, "good".  






Glory to Jesus Christ

 

     
anything